Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Over at Bishop Hill, the Bish has an interesting thread about a new proxy reconstruction by Rob Wilson et al. entitled “Last millennium northern hemisphere summer temperatures from tree rings: Part I: The long term context” , hereinafter Wilson 2016. The paper and the associated data are available here. They describe the genesis of the work as follows:
This work is the first product of a consortium called N-TREND (Northern Hemisphere Tree-Ring Network Development) which brings together dendroclimatologists to identify a collective strategy for improving large-scale summer temperature reconstructions.
At first I was stoked that they had included an Excel spreadsheet with the proxy data. Like they say in the 12-step programs, Hi, my name’s Willis, and I’m a data addict … anyhow, here’s a graph of all of the data, along with the annual average in red.
Figure 1. Plot of the proxy data from the Wilson 2016 Excel worksheet. All proxies cover the period 1710 – 1988, as indicated by the vertical dotted lines. Note what happens to the average at the recent end.
But as always, the devil is in the details. I ran across a couple of surprises as I looked at the data.
First, I realized after looking at the data for a bit that all of the proxies had been “normalized”, that is to say, set to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of one. This is curious, because one of the selling points of their study is the following (emphasis mine):
For N-TREND, rather than statistically screening all extant TR chronologies for a significant local temperature signal, we utilise mostly published TR temperature reconstructions (or chronologies used in published reconstructions) that start prior to 1750. This strategy explicitly incorporates the expert judgement the original authors used to derive the most robust [temperature] reconstruction possible from the available data at that particular location.
So to summarize the whole process: for most of the data used, it started out as various kinds of proxies (ring width, wood density, “Blue Intensity”).
Then it was transformed using the “expert judgement of the original authors” into temperature estimates in degrees celsius.
Then it has been transformed again, this time using the expert judgement of the current authors, into standard deviations based on the mean and standard deviation of the period 1750-1950. Why this exact period? Presumably, expert judgement.
Finally, it will be re-transformed one last time, again using the expert judgement of the current authors, back into temperatures in degrees celsius
This strikes me as … well … a strangely circuitous route. I mean, if you start with proxy temperatures in degrees C and you are looking to calculate an average temperature in degrees C, why change it to something else in between?
It got odder when I analyzed the authorship of the temperature records reconstructed from the 53 proxies. In 48 of the proxy, the original lead author is also an author on this paper. It is true that they said this study is the result of a consortium of dendroclimatologists. However, I had expected them to look at more tree ring temperature reconstructions from other authors. So when they say they depend on the expert judgement of the authors of the proxies, in more than 90% of the proxies studied, they are merely saying they trust their own judgment.
And indeed, they think quite highly of their own judgement. rating it “expert”.
But since that is the case, since they are depending on their own prior transformation of a record of, e.g., tree ring width in mm into an estimated temperature in degrees C, then why on earth would they convert it out of degrees C again, and then at the end of the day convert it back into degrees C? What is the gain in that?
My second surprise came after I’d messed with the actual data for a few hours, when I got around to looking at their reconstruction. They describe their method for creating their reconstruction as follows:
3. Reconstruction methodology
A similar iterative nesting method (Meko, 1997; Cook et al., 2002), as utilised in D’Arrigo et al. (2006) and Wilson et al. (2007), was used to develop the N-TREND2015 NH temperature reconstruction. This approach involves first normalising the TR data over a common period (1750 – 1950), averaging the series to derive a mean series and iteratively removing the shorter series to allow the extension of the reconstruction back (as well as forward) in time. Each nest is then scaled to have the same mean and variance as the most replicated nest (hereafter referred to as NEST 1) and the relevant time-series sections of each nest spliced together to derive the full-length reconstruction. For each nest, separate average time series were first generated for 4 longitude quadrats (Fig. 1). These continental scale time series were then averaged (after again normalising to 1750 – 1950) to produce the final large-scale hemispheric mean to ensure it is not biased to data rich regions in any one continent. 37 backward nests and 17 forward nests were calculated to produce the full reconstruction length from 750 to 2011.
Like the song says, “Well, it was clear as mud but it covered the ground” … I was reminded of a valuable insight by Steve McIntyre, which was that at the end of the day all these different systems for combining proxies are simply setting weights for a weighted average. No matter how complex or simple they are, whether it’s principal components or 37 backwards nests and 17 forwards nests, all they can do is weight different points by different amounts. This is another such system.
In any case, that explained why they put the normalized data in their spreadsheet. This normalized data was what they used in creating their reconstruction.
I got my second surprise when I plotted up their reconstruction from the data given in their Excel worksheet. I looked at it and said “Dang, that looks like the red line in Figure 1”. So I plotted up the annual average of the 53 normalized proxies in black, and I overlaid it with a regression of their reconstruction in red. Figure 2 shows that result:
Figure 2. Annual average of 53 proxies (black), and linear regression of Wilson 2016 iterative nested reconstruction. Regression is of the form Proxy_Average = m * Reconstruction + b, with m = 1.25 and b = 0.54.
All I can say is, I hope they didn’t pay full retail price for their Nested Reconstruction Integratomasticator. Other than the final data point, their nested reconstructed integrated results are nearly identical to a simple average of the data.
Finally, as you can see, in recent times (post 1988) the fewer the proxies, the higher the estimated temperature. This is abated but not solved by their method. We can see what this means by restricting our analysis to the time period when all of the proxies have data.
Figure 3. As in Figure 2, annual average of 53 proxies (black), and linear regression of Wilson 2016 iterative nested reconstruction (red). Blue lines show proxy data.You can see how the number of proxies drops off after 1988 by the change in the intensity of the blue color.
Again you can see that their reconstruction is scarcely different from the plain old average of the data. As you can see, according to the full set of proxies the temperature in 1988 was lower than the temperature in 1950, and there is no big hockey-stick in the recent data up to 1988. After that the number of proxies drops off a cliff. By 1990, we’ve already lost about 40% of the proxies, and from there the proxy count just continues to drop.
In closing let me add that this post is far from an exhaustive analysis of difficulties facing the Wilson 2016 study. It does not touch any of the individual proxies or the problems that they might have. I hope Steve McIntyre takes on that one, he’s the undisputed king of understanding and explaining proxy minutiae. It also doesn’t address the lack of bright-line ex-ante proxy selection criteria. Nor does it discuss “data snooping”, the practice of (often unconsciously or unwittingly) selecting the proxies that will support your thesis. I can only cover so much in one post.
My conclusions from all of this:
• Transforming a dataset from tree ring widths in mm to temperatures in degrees C, thence to standard deviations, and finally back to degrees C, seems like a doubtful procedure.
• Without seeing the underlying data, it is hard to judge the full effects of what they have done. While having the normalized datasets is valuable, it cannot replace the actual underlying data.
• Whatever their iterative nested method might be doing, it’s not doing a whole lot.
• I do not know of any justification for normalizing the proxies before averaging them. They are already in degrees C. In addition, normalization greatly distorts the trends a time series, in a manner that depends on the exact shape and variance of the time series.
Finally, to a good first approximation their reconstruction is the same as the annual average of the normalized data. That means their method uses the following process:
Transform the "expert judgement" proxy temperature estimates from degrees C to units of standard deviations. Average them. Transform them back to degrees C using linear regression.
I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe you can do that. Well, you can do it, but the result will have error bars from floor to ceiling and will have little to do with temperature.
El Niño rains here tonight. We’ve gotten four inches (10 cm) in the last four days, and it’s supposed to rain on and off for a week … great news here in drought city.
Best of life to all, sun when you need it, rain when it’s dry, silver from the five-day-old moon far-reaching on the sea …
w.
My Usual Request: If you disagree with me or anyone, please quote the exact words you disagree with. I can defend my own words. I cannot defend someone’s interpretation of my words.
My Other Request: If you think that e.g. I’m using the wrong method on the wrong dataset, please educate me and others by demonstrating the proper use of the right method on the right dataset. Simply claiming I’m wrong doesn’t advance the discussion.
Willis,
I spent a good deal of time yesterday reading the hockeystick papers that went into this hockeystick. Of the 54 series, 43 used known variance amplification methods (blade makers). I found 4 which I judged reasonable giving the greatest benefit of the doubt to the authro and 7 maybe’s.
https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2016/01/16/nearly-two-teams-of-hockey-sticks-used-in-massive-wilson-super-reconstruction/
I’ve re-analysed all 54 datasets for the period 1710-1998, the period where all sets have data. No statistical nonsense was applied. Calculating both the average and standard deviation, there is an interesting result!
For the period 1710 to 1998, there is virtually no change in the 30 year average of the deviation. What this says loud and clear is that there is no evidence in this data for climate change being due to anything other than natural causes. There is no evidence that industrialization is affecting the variability of climate. Otherwise we should be seeing a statistically significant increase in the variance. But we don’t.
http://oi64.tinypic.com/4ufho7.jpg
Nice image.
I saved it.
Execution of the precautionary principle concerning CO2, globs of funding to measure it and demonization of fossils will continue till the money finds another mass movement to pyramid in on.
Social justice
Sustainability
Deserved
….
Listing key buzzwords in the branding scheme of things.
Sorry – no time to read above comments.
The subject study has no technical credibility.
The post-2000 temperature spike has no support in the surface temperature record, the radiosonde weather balloon record or the satellite temperature record.
However, the authors do deserve some kudos: they certainly did manage to eliminate the “Divergence Problem” and “hide the decline”. Bravo!
eliminate the “Divergence Problem”
===============
if you look at the my graph immediately above, the post WWII cooling period is quite evident in the tree ring data, consistent with the historical records of the time.
The problem is that homogenization and other adjustments to the surface data have eliminated the post war cooling period from current records, which gives the false impression that there is a divergence.
There is no divergence between the tree rings and the post WWII cooling period. There is a divergence between the tree rings and the heavily adjust surface records.
This is strong evidence that the adjustments to the surface records has reduced their accuracy.
http://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/2015-12-18-12-36-03.png
Hi ferd – I understand that the Divergence Problem commenced about 1980 and continued thereafter,.
For more on the public revelation of the Divergence Problem in 2006, see
http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/07/darrigo-making-cherry-pie/
See the first graph.
Best,Allan
I doubt it – it comes 100 years after Mann’s.
We know – as do the researchers since they make no reference to any years after 2003. The post 2000 spike is an artifact of the low number of proxies available.
But it conveniently shows the spike that Mann so keenly wanted.
Looking further at the data I see that I made a mistake in my choice of end-points. the number of proxy’s drops off rapidly after 1988, making the results post 1988 unreliable. A few outliers post 1988 will have much more weight than those prior to 1988.
http://oi67.tinypic.com/n3owgy.jpg
Using this new information, here is the plot of average and standard deviation during the time when the number of proxies is constant. The hockey stick is gone.
http://oi66.tinypic.com/20fq0pg.jpg
And just for fun, here is the standard deviation of the whole data series from 750 – 2011. As can be seen from the 30 year moving average there has been no significant change in climate variability during the industrial age. In point of fact, climate was much more volatile prior to the 1500’s. It appears that since the 1500’s we have been in a period of abnormally low climate change.
http://oi65.tinypic.com/14kxz7n.jpg
Fred
The researchers themselves don’t include anything after 2003 in their analysis – or not in the paper at least. They do cite 1994-2003 as being the warmest decade but also state that it is not statistically distinguishable from 1946-55 and 1161-70. They are pushing it a bit by including 1994-2003 as the last complete decade but, leaving that aside, you’re right – there is no hockey stick.
The reconstruction is not that far removed from our traditional (non-CAGW) understanding of the MWP and LIA.
The researchers themselves don’t include anything after 2003 in their analysis
================
I wouldn’t be too sure of this. see ferdberple January 17, 2016 at 4:28 pm
Ferd writes:
Not sure I’d based any conclusion or even suggestion on these data Ferd, there are quite a few things other than temperature that could effect tree rings as everyone has said but it’s also true the “calibration” is almost certain to become less and less meaningful as we move further outside of its “region” (well, not certain but at least … oh heck I don’t know what it does and no one else does either but I wouldn’t try making any judgements based on it).
Last I looked (at the Mann data circa .1998) there wasn’t even documentation on the species of trees used. Do these author’s bother to mention it? This could simply be due to the use of a different species with higher variance? Who knows? It’s all certifiable crap-ola (is there a correct spelling of crap-ola?)
+10
More grist for the mill. Maybe some rebellious science types could create their own version of the anti Nobel Prize for worst science that set the avocation back the most.
Perhaps call it the Mannkind Prize.
If you’ve never played with the database that Mann uses google iowahawk. He does a fine job giving u all Mann’s data and helps you do what he did.
[Perhaps that should be the MannData’ed Prize? The annual Mannipulated Prize? .mod]
Willis, I said this when Brandon wrote about it at Bishop Hill’s thread, isn’t it possible that is is not author’s pushing their own reconstructions for use, but the use of their reconstructions pushing them to become authors?
Obviously, they should have consulted trees in neighboring regions in order to correct outliers.
John Finn January 17, 2016 at 4:17 am Edit
Thanks, John. I fear that you are looking at averages. Trees don’t know anything about averages. Instead, they react and respond to instantaneous temperatures.
And indeed, it is not at all uncommon for instantaneous temperatures to be well above where trees grow well for a part of every day during a hot summer.
And while (as you point out) the overall average still moves in the right direction, the upside-down “U” shape means that the temperature response is far, far from linear.
The question is not the general historical variations. It is whether their temperature scale is a) accurate, and b) precise.
The problem, as always, lies in the error bars. In this case, yes, their result is not “totally unbelievable” … but the true error bars go floor to ceiling, so we have no idea whether it is even in the range. So we cannot put weight on any conclusions we might draw from the results.
Best regards.
If that really is “the question” I’d probably agree with you but from a personal perspective I’m simply looking for the timing of climate shifts and how the magnitude of those shifts compare. e.g. was there a MWP, how long did it last and how does it compare with the modern day.
Rob Wilson writes
So you could be right about the intentions of the researchers. I don’t know Rob Wilson but the does appear to be very approachable. I don’t know if you feel this is worth following up.
John Finn writes:
I think it is John but I’ve already said that. What I didn’t do is explain why. In my opinion, this is the camel nose and if I accept it, I loose all ability to criticize any of its conclusions or any speculation drawn from it. The authors don’t acknowledge the in-accuracy of these data with error bars (which would obviously cause the reader to be aware that no conclusions can be reasonably reached from them) and they grossly overstate precision, of which there is exactly none. The gleefully use empirically derived “calibrations” in a fashion proscribed in scientific research. The break every rule and they do it openly and with no criticism from their peers. It’s Junk Science.
So yes, the question really is “whether their temperature scale is a) accurate, and b) precise” as Willis notes and any degree of acceptance, any use of these data at all should be laughed at and the authors subject to derision by any competent scientist. This activity can’t be tolerated. These people should be shunned; they aren’t scientists.
Rob Wilson (the lead researcher of N-TREND2015) posted this comment at Bishop Hill.
Rob Wilson is also reported to have made the the following comment in 2005 :
There has been criticism by Macintyre of Mann’s sole reliance on RE, and I am now starting to believe the accusations
WUWT readers have been too quick to jump all over this.
John, I truly don’t understand your point. You say that Rob Wilson
• asked people to read their paper, and
• grudgingly conceded a decade ago that McIntyre was right about Mann’s use of RE.
What do those have to do with your claim that “WUWT readers have been too quick to jump all over this.”?
This is a perfect example of why I ask people to quote what they disagree with. You are busting somebody for something you don’t like … but we have no idea either who you are busting for their excess jumping speed, or what they said that convinced you that they are guilty of premature ejumpulation.
Let me suggest that you stick to the science and leave the vague hand-waving accusations about “WUWT readers” out of it. It just costs you credibility when you resort to that kind of unspecified blanket denunciation.
In friendship,
w.
Take a look at the following graphs where I cut the data off in 2011 VS 2003. Look at the 2 year running average. 2011 big hockey stick. 2003 no hockey stick.
The problem is there are some big outliers in the last couple of years and very few samples, which skews the hell out of the graph.
http://oi66.tinypic.com/wia3xh.jpg
http://oi65.tinypic.com/14kxz7n.jpg
To me this is the money shot. You are not going to get climate change without a change in variance (STD^2). And there hasn’t been a significant change since about 1500.
Compare this to around 1300 and the big spike in variance. That should mark real climate change. And sure enough, here is what WP has to say:
possible beginning of the Little Ice Age:
1250 for when Atlantic pack ice began to grow
1275 to 1300 based on radiocarbon dating of plants killed by glaciation
1300 for when warm summers stopped being dependable in Northern Europe
1315 for the rains and Great Famine of 1315–1317
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
John Finn January 17, 2016 at 2:03 am
Thanks for your thoughts, John. However, it seems that you are not clear on the difference between accuracy and precision. Think of it in terms shooting. Precision means that your shots are tightly grouped, although they may be far from the bullseye. Accuracy means that they are centered around the bullseye, even if the group is scattered. It is possible to be very precise without being all that accurate. The CERES dataset is like that.
It is also possible to be accurate without being precise—the shots are centered on the target but they are not tightly grouped.
In this case, we do not know whether the results of the tree ring analysis are either precise or accurate. Now you say that we can use them as “climate indices” … and IF we knew that they were precise, we could do that. We could compare one time period to another.
But we do not know how precise the results are. As a result, the variations we see may be totally meaningless, and we cannot simply use them as “climate indices” as you suggest.
For example, a tree could track temperature quite closely … but at some point insects killed off its main competition. After that the tree got more sun and nutrients, so it has wider rings.
Now, can we say that the latter period with wider rings is warmer than the previous period, even as a “climate index”? I say no.
Regards,
w.
Willis – I have an honours degree in Mathematics. I know the difference between accuracy and precision.
But do the dendroclimatologists? Do they include with their reconstructions a measure of the accuracy of their samples?
1. Because looking at the N_Trend2015.xls data they are specifying temperature anomalies to 2 decimal places of precision and I very strongly suspect that trees are nowhere near that accurate as thermometers.
2. Because the dendro community has a practice of filtering (“calibrating”) their samples based on temperature, a practice that is better known mathematically as “selecting on the dependent variable”, which is a forbidden practice because it leads to spurious correlations. Here is the basic problem:
problem: solve: temperature = function (tree rings)
filter tree rings based on temperature
now the problem becomes: solve: temperature = function (tree rings, temperature)
and the simplest solution is: temperature = 0 * tree rings + 1 * temperature
therefore: any value of tree rings will work, regardless of whether they are matching temperature because they are sensitive to temperature, or simply matching due chance combinations of other factors.
therefore, filtering trees by temperature is a forbidden practice, because it will lead to spurious correlations. it will amplify false positives, while hiding the number of false positives.
Unfortunately the dendro community has apparently failed to understand the problem mathematically and continue to “calibrate” their samples. The other soft sciences now recognize the problem and have a great many papers written on the problem and how it leads to false conclusions.
But how much will this impact on the whole NH?
Willis, this study is not the whole story. It’s a piece of the jigsaw. Hubert Lamb produced a reconstruction of NH temperatures over the past millennium which, as far as I can tell, was based mainly on the Central England Temperature record and some weather records from neighbouring countries. Lamb thought there was a strong enough correlation between NH and CET temperatures to justify this To be fair the CET and NHT are fairly well correlated but this doesn’t mean they move in lock step over all time periods. Despite it’s uncertainties Lamb’s reconstruction was accepted by the climate community for several decades.
But like Wilson et al, Lamb’s work was just another part of the puzzle. Craig Loehle has provided another independent reconstruction which lends weight to the theory that there was a warm MWP period a cool LIA and a warmer modern period.
Rob Wilson does appear to acknowledge shortcomings with the TR database since he writes
We hope the existence and results of N-TREND will help provide important justification for investment in regions where little tree-ring data currently exist.
And this
To provide a strategic focus for the dendroclimatic community to identify where research needs to be focused (i.e. updating of old sites, sampling in new locations etc)
By the way, I’d be interested to know if there are any past 1000 year reconstructions which you consider do have a satisfactory standard of accuracy.
Why do dendro series not include some measure of accuracy?
For example, say we collected 100 tree ring samples from an area in which we also had temperature data. If we then did a correlation and only 10% of the trees had good correlation and 90% did not, we would know the trees were useless proxies.
The problem in climate science is that they throw away the 90% that don’t correlate and keep the 10% that do, not stopping to think that the 90% that don’t correlate are telling you that 9 out of 10 trees in the 10% that do correlate are simply doing so by chance.
Even though 10% correlated, only 1 trees out of 100 is actually correlating because of temperature. the other 9 are doing so by chance. But you have no idea which one is correlating, and when you lump it in with the 9 that are not, you are going to get a whole raft of bogus conclusions.
John Finn January 18, 2016 at 2:56 am
Thanks, John, and my congratulations on your honours degree. That being the case, consider the following:
A temperature reconstruction without believable error bars and without any mention of the inherent uncertainties in the underlying proxies says that since the year 2000 the northern hemisphere summers have warmed at a rate of 4° per century …
Is that reconstruction precise enough for us to use as a “climate index”? Because that is what you are claiming, and I don’t see any mathematical foundation for that claim.
Me, I say any reconstruction that gets it that wrong, and with such unbelievable error bars, is far from precise enough to use as an index of anything but the hubris of the authors … what says your honours degree?
Next, consider the following scenario. We pick 53 actual temperature records from around the northern hemisphere, including several “area-averages” of temperature records covering regional areas.
Then, regardless of whether they are single thermometer records or area averages, we normalize them all to a common period.
Then we average the normalized records, and we fit them using linear regression to the actual temperature record. Finally, we throw away the underlying temperature records, and we present only the normalized records and their average, which we claim is the temperature history of the northern hemisphere.
What does your honours degree say about the uncertainties inherent in this process, even if the underlying data is actual thermometer records? How does including the area averages on the same footing with the individual temperature records affect the uncertainties?
Finally, what if the underlying data is NOT thermometers, but tree-ring records which are known to be subject to a host of confounding factors. They are averages of varying numbers of trees in varying locations in unknown historical conditions.
What do you think are the uncertainties in that normalize-and-average process, particularly given that the trees were selected by different authors using different criteria, and that many other tree ring records exist that they did not use?
Their claim is that they can tell the temperature a thousand years ago to within a degree or so … but if you look at their Figure 2 panels D and E, you’ll see that the actual temperature a mere hundred and fifty years ago is already outside their wildly unrealistic error estimates …
And if their reconstruction is already in error pushing towards 1°C only 150 years ago, how much is it out when we look a thousand years back in time?
The ugly truth is … we don’t know.
I describe this type of situations as having “error bars that go from floor to ceiling”, and I hold that it makes the results worse than useless for anything including relative comparisons and “climate indices”, as they can be actively misleading.
Best regards,
w.
Thanks Willis
Once again you do a good job zeroing in on the overreach.
Dendroclimatologists probably don’t like being told that their field lacks the necessary level of precision and accuracy for the claims they make. Sometimes I imagine the various science fields as little hatchlings in a nest .. squawking and chirping for attention from the various mamma birds that feed them.
About 30 years ago now, Willis, but thanks all the same.
I’ll tell you want I’m going to do Willis. I’m going read the paper fully and then read your post again. You might ask why I haven’t done this already but my comments were originally in response to other readers – not necessarily to you,
Looking at this study in isolation – agreed. But the key features of the reconstruction as described in the paper suggest the estimated values are reasonably well correlated with other non-TR reconstructions. Whatever the reservations about the uncertainties if, to use your analogy, all the shots are clustered around the bullseye, it’s likely to be more than random luck at play. However, having looked closer at the data the correlations are not quite as impressive as I was led to believe by the paper (my fault – not Wilson’s) .
This post is terrible. Most troubling is the fact it says a number of things that are completely and utterly false. For instance, the author asks a number of rhetorical questions like:
Which are absurd given the fact the data used in this paper was not originally in temperature units. The idea that all the data used was originally in temperature units, emphasized by the author modifying a quote from the paper to add the word “temperature” to it:
Is a total fabrication on the author’s part. Had he put any effort into understanding the paper’s data, he’d have known most (if not all) of the series were not originally given in temperature units. Instead, he made this wildly inaccurate claim and people… just believed him.
The author of this post had no idea what he’s talking about, and it’s embarrassing this post was ever published. I’m a few days late to discovering the post so I don’t know that anyone will see this comment, but if they do, I encourage them to read the post I wrote detailing a number of glaring errors this post contains. That would be better than me rewriting it all here.
In the meantime, I want to say it’s incredibly sad this terrible post written without any real understanding of what it discusses has been promoted and embraced by this site’s readers.
Brandon S? (@Corpus_no_Logos) January 22, 2016 at 2:42 am
Brandon, the reason that they believed my claim is because it is true. From the paper, emphasis mine:
You see the part about how they mostly used published temperature reconstructions and not tree ring chronologies, JUST LIKE I HAD SAID? Do you see that it is totally contrary to your claim, and supports my claim entirely?
Sheesh … my suggestion would be, do your homework before getting all snarky. You don’t look all that attractive with egg on your face.
w.
Willis Eschenbach, you just misrepresented the quote you claim proves me wrong in a glaringly obvious manner. You say:
But the quote clearly says:
A paper saying they mostly used published temperature reconstructions or tree ring chronologies does nothing to say the authors “mostly used published temperature reconstructions and not tree ring chronologies.”
You can mock me and talk about me supposedly getting egg on my face, but when your rebuttal consists of nothing but misrepresenting a quote in a way anyone with basic reading skills would see through…
Brandon, here was your claim about me:
You don’t seem to understand what’s going on in the study. I went over their data with a fine-toothed comb prior to writing the head post. As a result, I knew what you seem to want to misrepresent—70% of their data is from tree ring reconstructions in temperature units, as was clearly implied in the quote I gave you and as is detailed in the study. Go and count them yourself if you don’t believe me.
w.
Willis you are talking to a brick wall. He’s convinced that a “tree ring chronology” is made of tree rings, and not a chronology taken from tree rings and turned into temperature units. Which of course is idiotic. I’m not sure what a chronology made of tree rings would actually look like…maybe something like this? hehehehe
ah, but wait … i see the connection
deny, divert, confuse … none other than the wiggle worm
http://www.designbytina.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/main-worm02-940×4601-694×460.jpg
They give my dog pills when he has worms 🙂
Hold on Willis Eschenbach, before we can go any further we need to address the fact you grossly misrepresented that quote. You said:
While providing a quote which clearly did not say that, as it said:
There was no part saying “they mostly used published temperature reconstructions and not tree ring chronologies.” You made that up. Their comment about what they “mostly” used had nothing to do with the relative proportion of tree ring chronologies to temperature reconstructions. Because of that, nothing about that quote was “totally contrary” to what I had said. You can’t just walk that misrepresentation back and pretend all you had ever said was that it “was clearly implied” by the quote I am wrong.
You had even bolded the phrase “temperature reconstructions” as though the simple mention of the phrase proved you right. You didn’t say a word acknowledging the use of tree ring chronologies until after I pointed out you had misrepresented the quote, at which point you began to try to play with semantics to pretend you hadn’t said anything wrong.
If you want to talk about the relative proportions of tree ring chronologies to temperature reconstructions in the data set, we can, but not if you’re just going to constantly misrepresent what gets said. It’s like how I’ve already shown you’ve misrepresented the methodology used by this paper because you didn’t understand it. Arguing the specifics of data isn’t going to work out well if that’s the pattern of behavior you’re going to engage in. If you’re just going to misrepresent everything anyway…
Aphan:
This is a bizarre comment. Anyone who is remotely familiar with anything related to temperature reconstructions should know a tree ring chronology is not given in temperature units. It may be converted into temperature units via some process, perhaps after being combined with other chronologies, but it is not a teperature record on its own. In fact, many tree ring chronologies don’t reflect temperature at all, but are used to try to measure other things, like precipitation. In the same way, reconstructions are not inherently or necessarily temperature reconstructions.
I don’t know why you think it is idiotic to say this. It’s trivially easy to see it is true. Just looking at tree ring chronologies is enough to show it as they’re not given in temperature units.
Brandon, I’d said:
You said no, it wasn’t true that most of the data had been transformed into temperature estimates, claiming that:
So I went and counted. 70% of the data, which is to say most of the data, had been transformed into temperature units, JUST AS I HAD SAID.
Rather than deal with your obvious error and admit that you hadn’t done your homework, now you want to whine about something totally different. This time you point out that I’d quoted what they said, viz:
I had interpreted that as meaning that mostly they used published temperature reconstructions, plus for some lesser number, they used chronologies. And in fact when I counted, that turned out to be the case. So it seems that one of us could read simple English and intuit the authors’ meaning.
Somehow, you still want to claim that I was wrong, and that what they meant was something different … sorry, Brandon. You are entitled to your own interpretations, but you don’t get your own facts.
And at the end of the day, other than as a spectacularly unsuccessful attempt to bite my ankles on some minor issue, it;s not clear what you were trying to accomplish. I mean, suppose you had been 100% right instead of being totally wrong … what difference would that make? Whether the data was temperatures or not is a very minor issue, given the other huge problems in the study … so what on earth were you trying to prove?
I ask because all you’ve proven so far is that you didn’t do your homework, and I’m curious what it was you thought you’d originally set out to show, and why it’s important.
Regards,
w.
Willis Eschenbach:
You might want to recount. As I point out below, there is no way 70% of the series had been transformed into temperature data. Of the series used by the authors, 33/54 never existed in temperature units. I don’t know how you came up with your count (I offered one guess in that comment), but it’s not a good one.
Leaving aside that your count was wrong, your interpretation of the quoted sentence is completely nonsensical. Nobody would ever say they mostly used X (or Y) data to indicate most of their data was of type X. The phrase “mostly published” was obviously a reference to the fact not all of the series used by the authors were taken from published work.
If you want to focus on semantics to try to pretend you didn’t misrepresent the quoted text, you can, but nobody who “could read simple English and intuit the authors’ meaning” would ever agree with your interpretation.
I said this post had many mistakes, giving one example from the number I had written about. Claiming that one example doesn’t matter while ignoring the other glaring errors I pointed out seems rather disingenuous. If you actually wanted to know why I think your mistakes matter, you should have addressed the fact I’ve said things like you’ve failed to understand the paper’s methodology in a drastic way and consequently created a false comparison to criticize it.
But sure, pretend I’m just trying to “bite [your] ankles.” That level of response to critics is bound to convince… your fanboys, I guess? I’m not sure who else would fail to notice your pathetic rhetorical flourishes serve only to divert attention from the fact you don’t address what has been said.
While I think the relative number of tree ring chronologies compared to temperature reconstructions used by this paper is a minor issue, having picked it as an example of the many problems I listed in the post I wrote merely because of its simplicitly, I suppose it would help to resolve it. In that vein, I should point out there is perhaps a bit of a translation problem, so to speak. Willis Eschenbach’s latest comment says:
Now, I actually understand what is going on in this study better than Eschenbach does. One can tell this by the fact I was able to accurately describe its methodology in my post, demonstrating this post has screwed things up by taking (the average of) output of one step of the methodology and comparing it to the final results given by the methodology as proof the methodology has little effect. Of course, that’s silly. You can’t tell how much effect a methodology has by comparing the output of Step 1 to the output of the final results. You have to compare the final results to what would have happened without any of the steps, including Step 1.
But that remark was rhetorical, not informative. What’s actually informative is Eschenbach’s claim “70% of their data is from tree ring reconstructions in temperature units.” This statement would seem strange to anyone who has simply read the Supplementary Information provided by the authors. Table A1 of that document explicitly lists 33 series as chronologies, 20 series as reconstructions and doesn’t explicitly state what 1 series is. 20/54 is obviously not ~70%. It’s ~35%.
That’s a pretty big discrepancy. There may, however, be a simple explanation. You see, 18 of these series come from the PAGES 2K Asian network. These series are listed by the authors as chronologies, not temperature reconstructions. They are series created by looking at the PAGES 2K Asian results in 6 by 8 degree gridcells. They are not in temperature units, and they were never given in temperature units by anyone.
But there’s a catch which might explain Eschenbach’s remark. The PAGES 2K Asian results were not originally given in 6 by 8 degree gridcells. They were originally given in 2 by 2 degree gridcells. At that point, they were given in temperature units. When these results were reduced to 6 by 8 degree gridcells, they were converted into unitless series to prevent issues like baseline/variance differences in the finer results introducing biases into the series used for this paper. Perhaps Eschenbach feels this conversion should be ignored when talking about whether the underlying series were given in temperature units or not.
I can’t say that’s necessarily wrong. It is, however, a nuanced argument which requires one not simply look at whether the series used by the authors of this paper are given as tree ring chronologies or temperature reconstructions, but also whether or not the series underwent any processing steps between the original paper they were created with and the methodology used in this paper. It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to realize he intended his argument to be based on such nuances given he never said a word to indicate they exist. How he could ever imagine people would realize 33/54 series explicitly being labeled tree ring chronologies by the authors of this paper should be considered as indicating 70% of the data is given as temperature reconstructions, not tree ring chronologies, is beyond me. I certainly don’t regret saying:
At the time I wrote the comment, I knew well over half the series had never been given in temperature units, so that comment was perfectly reasonable. Now that I have counted the series like Eschenbach suggested I do if I didn’t believe him, I find 33 of 54 series were never given in temperature units. That… only confirms what I said. I have no idea why Eschenbach suggested I count the series as anyone who does will find I was completely correct.
Maybe there are some nuances which make Eschenbach’s comments here not completely wrong, but if so, he never even hinted at them.
Brandon S? (@Corpus_no_Logos) January 22, 2016 at 10:19 pm
Hey, when you don’t know what I’ve done, why not just ask? I’m happy to explain.
Here’s what I did. I looked at the list given by the authors as Appendix A in the Supplementary Online Information, wherein every proxy is listed as either a temperature reconstruction, or a chronology.
I have no clue why you think that 33 out of the 54 “never existed in temperature units”. You may be mistaking the various different proxies represented in the ASGrid gridded data for chronologies. They are not. The ASGrid gridded data are described in Appendix A as being created from a “2×2 gridded reconstruction:”.
Here are the results of the 54 datasets, according to Appendix A
GOA, Recon.
ICE, Recon.
FIRT, Chron.
IDA, Recon.
THE, Chron.
COP, Chron.
WRAx, Chron.
IBC, Recon.
YUN, Recon.
YUS, Recon.
NTR, Chron.
QUEw, Recon.
QUEx, Chron.
NQU, Chron.
LAB, Recon.
Efmean, Recon.
YAM, Chron.
ALPS, Recon.
SFIN, Recon.
JAEM, Recon.
ASGrid1, Recon.
KOL, Recon.
ASGrid2, Recon.
POLx, Chron.
ASGrid10, Recon.
ASGrid11, Recon.
SCOT, Recon.
FORF, Chron.
TAT, Recon.
TYR, Chron.
TAA, Chron.
PYR, Recon.
MOG, Recon.
KYR, Recon.
TAY, Chron.
ALT, Chron.
ASGrid3, Recon.
ASGrid12, Recon.
ASGrid4, Recon.
ASGrid5, Recon.
ASGrid6, Recon.
OZN, Recon.
ASGrid13, Recon.
ASGrid7, Recon.
MANx, Chron.
YAK, Chron.
ASGrid14, Recon.
ASGrid15, Recon.
ASGrid16, Recon.
ASGrid8, Recon.
ASGrid17, Recon.
ASGrid9, Recon.
ASGrid18, Recon.
NJAP, Recon.
That is a total of 38 out of 54 which are reconstructions, or 70.3% …
I gotta say, though, that you manage to focus on to trivialities … suppose you were right about this issue. It would make no difference to either my analysis or my conclusions. So I fail to understand your obsession with this question.
w.
His obsession is with “winning” a point for his side, even if it’s the most trivial, stupid, irrelevant point he can find. The fact that he just wrote 8ish paragraphs about that one, tiny, trivial point and the way he says things indicates that his pride is at stake and he will most likely continue to bring this up even if he’s wrong. Willis, your patience is amazing.
Willis Eschenbach:
I have no idea why you’d think I should ask you what you did when you clearly counted the series. The only question is how you came up with a number so different from mine – which I managed to accurately explain without having asked you anything. You just showed my interpretation of what you did was completely correct so… why would I ask you what you did?
While the ASGrid series are stated to be derived from a reconstruction, it is also explicitly stated they are not in temperature units. They never were. That’s why the authors label the series: “RW and MXD chronologies,” not reconstructions. I already explained this in the comment right above yours, yet you somehow managed to ignore everything I said about the issue while insisting I’m wrong about it.
Dear god, I don’t know how you could be more disingenuous. My first comment here referred to there being multiple errors in this post, and I’ve pointed out you’ve done nothing to address most of the errors I highlighted. I’ve specifically pointed this out to you, telling you you ought to address the many things I’ve said rather than focusing solely on this one example.
Yet here you are, claiming I am obsessed with this question. I’m the one who said we should be looking at other issues, not just this one. You’re the one who has refused to do anything but focus on this one issue. In what world does that make me the one obsessed with this issue? This is like having the exchange:
“There are many errors in this post. We should look at them all, but here is one example.”
“No. We must only discuss this one example. I won’t look at any of the others. Dear god, why are you so obsessed with this one example?”
But it doesn’t matter. You’re clearly not even trying to respond to what I say. You just wrote this entire comment of yours while flagrantly ignoring the fact everything it says has already been addressed in the comments I’ve written. That’s why I said we shouldn’t bother to move onto other issues if we couldn’t resolve your ridiculous misrepresentation of what the paper said – because you’re serially incapable of accurately treating anything you disagree iwth.