Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Over at Bishop Hill, the Bish has an interesting thread about a new proxy reconstruction by Rob Wilson et al. entitled “Last millennium northern hemisphere summer temperatures from tree rings: Part I: The long term context” , hereinafter Wilson 2016. The paper and the associated data are available here. They describe the genesis of the work as follows:
This work is the first product of a consortium called N-TREND (Northern Hemisphere Tree-Ring Network Development) which brings together dendroclimatologists to identify a collective strategy for improving large-scale summer temperature reconstructions.
At first I was stoked that they had included an Excel spreadsheet with the proxy data. Like they say in the 12-step programs, Hi, my name’s Willis, and I’m a data addict … anyhow, here’s a graph of all of the data, along with the annual average in red.
Figure 1. Plot of the proxy data from the Wilson 2016 Excel worksheet. All proxies cover the period 1710 – 1988, as indicated by the vertical dotted lines. Note what happens to the average at the recent end.
But as always, the devil is in the details. I ran across a couple of surprises as I looked at the data.
First, I realized after looking at the data for a bit that all of the proxies had been “normalized”, that is to say, set to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of one. This is curious, because one of the selling points of their study is the following (emphasis mine):
For N-TREND, rather than statistically screening all extant TR chronologies for a significant local temperature signal, we utilise mostly published TR temperature reconstructions (or chronologies used in published reconstructions) that start prior to 1750. This strategy explicitly incorporates the expert judgement the original authors used to derive the most robust [temperature] reconstruction possible from the available data at that particular location.
So to summarize the whole process: for most of the data used, it started out as various kinds of proxies (ring width, wood density, “Blue Intensity”).
Then it was transformed using the “expert judgement of the original authors” into temperature estimates in degrees celsius.
Then it has been transformed again, this time using the expert judgement of the current authors, into standard deviations based on the mean and standard deviation of the period 1750-1950. Why this exact period? Presumably, expert judgement.
Finally, it will be re-transformed one last time, again using the expert judgement of the current authors, back into temperatures in degrees celsius
This strikes me as … well … a strangely circuitous route. I mean, if you start with proxy temperatures in degrees C and you are looking to calculate an average temperature in degrees C, why change it to something else in between?
It got odder when I analyzed the authorship of the temperature records reconstructed from the 53 proxies. In 48 of the proxy, the original lead author is also an author on this paper. It is true that they said this study is the result of a consortium of dendroclimatologists. However, I had expected them to look at more tree ring temperature reconstructions from other authors. So when they say they depend on the expert judgement of the authors of the proxies, in more than 90% of the proxies studied, they are merely saying they trust their own judgment.
And indeed, they think quite highly of their own judgement. rating it “expert”.
But since that is the case, since they are depending on their own prior transformation of a record of, e.g., tree ring width in mm into an estimated temperature in degrees C, then why on earth would they convert it out of degrees C again, and then at the end of the day convert it back into degrees C? What is the gain in that?
My second surprise came after I’d messed with the actual data for a few hours, when I got around to looking at their reconstruction. They describe their method for creating their reconstruction as follows:
3. Reconstruction methodology
A similar iterative nesting method (Meko, 1997; Cook et al., 2002), as utilised in D’Arrigo et al. (2006) and Wilson et al. (2007), was used to develop the N-TREND2015 NH temperature reconstruction. This approach involves first normalising the TR data over a common period (1750 – 1950), averaging the series to derive a mean series and iteratively removing the shorter series to allow the extension of the reconstruction back (as well as forward) in time. Each nest is then scaled to have the same mean and variance as the most replicated nest (hereafter referred to as NEST 1) and the relevant time-series sections of each nest spliced together to derive the full-length reconstruction. For each nest, separate average time series were first generated for 4 longitude quadrats (Fig. 1). These continental scale time series were then averaged (after again normalising to 1750 – 1950) to produce the final large-scale hemispheric mean to ensure it is not biased to data rich regions in any one continent. 37 backward nests and 17 forward nests were calculated to produce the full reconstruction length from 750 to 2011.
Like the song says, “Well, it was clear as mud but it covered the ground” … I was reminded of a valuable insight by Steve McIntyre, which was that at the end of the day all these different systems for combining proxies are simply setting weights for a weighted average. No matter how complex or simple they are, whether it’s principal components or 37 backwards nests and 17 forwards nests, all they can do is weight different points by different amounts. This is another such system.
In any case, that explained why they put the normalized data in their spreadsheet. This normalized data was what they used in creating their reconstruction.
I got my second surprise when I plotted up their reconstruction from the data given in their Excel worksheet. I looked at it and said “Dang, that looks like the red line in Figure 1”. So I plotted up the annual average of the 53 normalized proxies in black, and I overlaid it with a regression of their reconstruction in red. Figure 2 shows that result:
Figure 2. Annual average of 53 proxies (black), and linear regression of Wilson 2016 iterative nested reconstruction. Regression is of the form Proxy_Average = m * Reconstruction + b, with m = 1.25 and b = 0.54.
All I can say is, I hope they didn’t pay full retail price for their Nested Reconstruction Integratomasticator. Other than the final data point, their nested reconstructed integrated results are nearly identical to a simple average of the data.
Finally, as you can see, in recent times (post 1988) the fewer the proxies, the higher the estimated temperature. This is abated but not solved by their method. We can see what this means by restricting our analysis to the time period when all of the proxies have data.
Figure 3. As in Figure 2, annual average of 53 proxies (black), and linear regression of Wilson 2016 iterative nested reconstruction (red). Blue lines show proxy data.You can see how the number of proxies drops off after 1988 by the change in the intensity of the blue color.
Again you can see that their reconstruction is scarcely different from the plain old average of the data. As you can see, according to the full set of proxies the temperature in 1988 was lower than the temperature in 1950, and there is no big hockey-stick in the recent data up to 1988. After that the number of proxies drops off a cliff. By 1990, we’ve already lost about 40% of the proxies, and from there the proxy count just continues to drop.
In closing let me add that this post is far from an exhaustive analysis of difficulties facing the Wilson 2016 study. It does not touch any of the individual proxies or the problems that they might have. I hope Steve McIntyre takes on that one, he’s the undisputed king of understanding and explaining proxy minutiae. It also doesn’t address the lack of bright-line ex-ante proxy selection criteria. Nor does it discuss “data snooping”, the practice of (often unconsciously or unwittingly) selecting the proxies that will support your thesis. I can only cover so much in one post.
My conclusions from all of this:
• Transforming a dataset from tree ring widths in mm to temperatures in degrees C, thence to standard deviations, and finally back to degrees C, seems like a doubtful procedure.
• Without seeing the underlying data, it is hard to judge the full effects of what they have done. While having the normalized datasets is valuable, it cannot replace the actual underlying data.
• Whatever their iterative nested method might be doing, it’s not doing a whole lot.
• I do not know of any justification for normalizing the proxies before averaging them. They are already in degrees C. In addition, normalization greatly distorts the trends a time series, in a manner that depends on the exact shape and variance of the time series.
Finally, to a good first approximation their reconstruction is the same as the annual average of the normalized data. That means their method uses the following process:
Transform the "expert judgement" proxy temperature estimates from degrees C to units of standard deviations. Average them. Transform them back to degrees C using linear regression.
I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe you can do that. Well, you can do it, but the result will have error bars from floor to ceiling and will have little to do with temperature.
El Niño rains here tonight. We’ve gotten four inches (10 cm) in the last four days, and it’s supposed to rain on and off for a week … great news here in drought city.
Best of life to all, sun when you need it, rain when it’s dry, silver from the five-day-old moon far-reaching on the sea …
w.
My Usual Request: If you disagree with me or anyone, please quote the exact words you disagree with. I can defend my own words. I cannot defend someone’s interpretation of my words.
My Other Request: If you think that e.g. I’m using the wrong method on the wrong dataset, please educate me and others by demonstrating the proper use of the right method on the right dataset. Simply claiming I’m wrong doesn’t advance the discussion.
Dendrochronology IS a science. It’s a very detailed and exact science, and its usefulness lies in its ability to date wood. That’s about it. A dendrochronologist helped to convict the kidnappers in the Lindberg baby case (the used and discarded ladder to access the child’s room was made of wood).
The Anasazi ruins were dated using dendrochronology. Very exactly, too. No one I know disputes the conclusions.
But to pretend it’s a useful proxy for temperature is absurd, and I doubt any arborist, or forester, or horticulturist would consider it as such.
Using the climatologists logic, 2012 in the Midwestern US would show up as a very cold year, because the growth rings were so truncated (hee). It was very hot, and very dry.
That’s why the paper refers to dedroclimatology. 😉
Briffa would be disappointed [not] there’s no post 1960 decline to hide.
Why do you criticise Briffa ? He published a proxy with a decline , it was Mann and Jones who tried to suppress it.
Briffa published a time series in which only one of 12 trees showed a hockey stick. He’s as dishonest as Mann and Jones.
From the article: “all of the proxies had been “normalized”, that is to say, set to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of one.”
This is because each specimen has unknown parameters such as relationships of temperature/moisture to growth, so their normalized proxies are thus comparable to each other and otherwise would not be. After combining them you can estimate the impact of temperature on growth per each proxy by using the others as a (circular) reference, but it’s a hodge-podge, GIGO even. How you’d estimate the errors beats me, and catastrophic error would be a real possibility if not likely. So the normalization is essential as a starting point, anyway.
The conversion into standard deviations is evidently meant to strengthen the weight of the most conforming proxies. This is like an iterative Bayesian process and has GIGO all over it. Anyway, that’s my brief assessment.
“…so their normalized proxies are thus comparable to each other and otherwise would not be. ”
How do you arrive at that conclusion? That is Willis’ main point. The original papers had already attributed the scaling. This information is thrown out in place of an arbitrary “normalised” scaling. Why do you conclude that this makes them more “comparable”?
If you have rain gauge data from a group of cities, you can add them to get a total rainfall series for the region. This may be related to the total energy causing evaporation. If you normalise the data and add them you lose all physical meaning. Rescaling them afterwards will recover the lost information.
You have degraded and muddied the information because they are NO LONGER comparable.
Mike: There’s no defensible way *not* to normalize them because of unknown microclimates! For each specimen the unknown microclimate and unknown individual growth characteristics control the growth rings as least as much as the macroclimate. Normalizing cleans that out, but removes the “physical meaning” as you note. Now to fit each individual profile into the ensemble recovers the macroclimate, but how to separate the temperatures from the precipitation seems insoluble — it’s what’s called a “degenerate” solution where you can’t separate them. Short term proxies are controlled by long term proxies which, however, show less detail. And the Bayesian prior restores the “physical meaning” in the form of GIGO. I don’t think this approach is publishable except with very friendly reviewers.
Before one even gets all the way to what you guys are debating, one has to get past the phrase “expert judgement”.
To me, this sounds like the entire exercise is nothing but opinion.
In light of that, nothing else even matters. IMO.
NZ Willy January 16, 2016 at 6:20 pm
Thanks, Willy. Ah, but the same is true of thermometers. Thermometers are as subject at trees to what you call “unknown microclimates!” complete with exclamation mark.
And again, for both trees and thermometers the unknown microclimate controls the temperature as least as much as does the macroclimate.
So if the issue is the existence of microclimates as you claim, should we normalize our thermometer readings in order to “clean that out”, as you advise?
Regards,
w.
Has anyone noticed that because of the lack of “data” for the last 20 years (why?) coupled with the fact that the amount of data significantly decreases the closer the date is to present that your eye “magically” draws a line from the end of the red line up to the darkest part of the blue line at the end of the chart? Expand the chart on your display and step back a few feet from the monitor an look at the graph again.
However, even that dark lump of data at the end is actually not much higher than the dark area in the year 1950 (or so)! Looks to me that they are definitely playing with the data.
“This strategy explicitly incorporates the expert judgement the original authors used to derive the most robust [temperature] reconstruction possible from the available data at that particular location …”.
=======================
That amounts to a blatant appeal to authority.
How is one to verify the expertness of a dendrochronologist?
Is it a matter of good old ‘consensus’, ‘you say I’m an expert and I’ll say you’re an expert’?
Do dendrochronologists ever replicate each other’s results, do they ever disagree?
I feel that attempting to establish environmental temperature from tree ring studies is optimistic to say the least. As others have pointed out, water supply is the dominating factor, followed by exposure to wind and light. There is even variation in each year’s ring width around the circumference. It can be clearly observed in a branch where the compressed underside displays a different ring width to the upper that is subject to extension. Trees subject to prevailing winds display the same patterns, in their trunks. Should for some reason a tree be subject to change in effective wind direction the variation in the trunk rings will ‘rotate” making things very difficult to interpret
There is also the problem of growth spurts during certain stages in aging – just as is the case in fauna. There is always competition between trees such that the winners get most of the light and will show a growth spurt not displayed in a neighbour that has been deprived of light (unless of course they are a shade species). They will have different ring signatures. I have no doubt that experts in the field are aware of these factors but cannot deny that they potentially effect accurate interpretation
I recently cut down some trees on which I have a fairly accurate idea on planting date (approx 130 yrs) I have a very good memory on key years in relation to rainfall over the last 50 years. We had a string of hard droughts in the 60’s. This event is clearly displayed by ring width variation approaching 75% when compared with the prior and latter more normal years. Annual rainfall during the draughts was probably around 75% of our normal average of 1800 mm. Yet, the droughts occurred over the warm months when growth is usually at its highest
I have a neighbour who has religiously kept rainfall records since 1966. The next step is to correlate these. So much fun, is this science 🙂
Whatever, the key message is that establishing paletemperature through tree ring studies is problematic – as I see it. One would have to be very selective over which species and environment to study. Tundra may be the best bet. Taking any old data from the past aint going to do it
Thank you, Mike. I was relating my experiences with bamboo while you posted this. I have lots of trees but seldom handle them, so I hadn’t considered these interesting points you raise, especially about competitive growth. Lot to think about. Let’s hope the ring-counters are also doing some thinking along these lines.
OK, I averaged all 54 data series from 1710 to 1988. The period for which they all have data. Then I plotted the results without any statistical nonsense. Here is the result. As can be seen temperatures have been rising steadily since the early 1800’s, long before CO2 was an issue.
This is VERY STRONG evidence that CO2 is not the cause of the current warming!!
http://oi67.tinypic.com/14b6g6d.jpg
correction from 1710 to 1998.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2mpzadu.jpg
When I made the point in an earlier comment that this study actually supports the conventional sceptical view of MWP, LIA and modern warming period I was seriously criticised.
Whether or not you agree with the use of tree rings you have to accept that the authors of this study have been prepared to “stand or fall” by their method. They have not used tree rings for the earlier and then grafted the thermometer record onto the reconstruction in the later years.
I was seriously criticised
====================
Just because it was serious doesn’t mean the criticism was correct.
Whether or not you agree with the use of tree rings
============
I accept that if tree rings are a valid proxy for temperature, then the N-TREND2015 data provides very strong evidence that the modern warming cannot be due to CO2, because it is plain to see that the warming started long before CO2 was an issue.
Ferd, why is this strong evidence? Are you suggesting that because tree rings have gotten larger over the past 200 years we can conclude CO2 isn’t causing warming? How do you reach this conclusion?
Wouldn’t it be more supportable to measure temperature, measure CO2, and test for a correlation? We can do that now, so I don’t understand the reason for this analysis, or why it wouldn’t be equally valid to conclude increased CO2 released by a warming ocean had increased tree ring width over the same period?
Ferd, why is this strong evidence
=============
what I was referring to was human created CO2 from fossil fuels, which was not significant at the time the modern warming starts according to the tree ring data.
human CO2 from burning trees will not increase CO2 significantly, because the trees represent CO2 taken out of the atmosphere.
A bit OT, maybe: I grow moso bamboo, which obviously doesn’t resemble any tree in growth habits and patterns. There are new annual culms instead of rings, just for starters. However there is a principle to be considered here:
If I look back at recent records of temp and rainfall they tell me very little about how my ‘boo actually grew in that year. All the critical things which lead to a good shooting year need to come together in a certain way. Heat and rainfall need to be timely, and rainfall has to be VERY timely. Damage in the vulnerable spring weeks from wind and animals can lower results in a good year (animals are more likely to damage in a dry spring, but good La Nina rain in mid-spring comes with southerly winds which are not so good). Some effort from me or some good late luck with rainfall can make a bad year better. These results will not show in the weather record, only in the size and number of poles in that year. I’d add that while La Nina leaves a pretty clear visiting card in my grove, El Nino does not.
What I’m saying is that my ‘boo is a lousy record of temp and rainfall, and I suspect that if I lived long and closely enough with some other type of plant I’d start to realise much the same thing about it. With trees, I’m guessing that if rain or warmth comes too early or late for optimum growth in one or even more studied species you may conclude wrongly that there was not much rain or warmth in that year. I know that dry late winter/spring conditions, combined with high heat, can be followed by a damp and somewhat cool summer in my part of NSW. Some species will prosper when that happens, others won’t. Lastly, some plants just relax and clock off, some decide not to grow every year – I dunno why, they probably don’t know why. Maybe they’re tired or complacent or unhappy with their situation. Not getting all their minerals for their time of life?
So dendrochronologists are like the rest of us. They still need commonsense and they need to get out more.
For example, I have several Buckeye trees on my property. On the years that the blossoms appear at the right time,they get pollinated to the max, it doesn’t freeze on them it makes no difference how much it rains or how warm it is the trees put all of their “growth” into buckeyes – NOT making a larger, taller tree. The years that there is a frost on the blossoms and there are few if any buckeyes they grow 18 or more inches taller that year, with only average/normal temperature or rainfall. The same correlation must exist with other trees that produce seeds, just not as obvious.
Moso,
I made this following comment before I had read anything below it. That so many of us have the same thoughts is, to me, very significant.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/16/aproxymations/comment-page-1/#comment-2121081
It’s a sorry fact that many highly numerate scientists are too mechanistic and literal-minded about data. The way “temperature” is constructed from of min/max readings, regardless of cloud, wind etc, is downright alarming. Do these people seriously not notice the effect of cloud cover, often radical and having effect at the very time of day or night where min/max potentially occur? Or do they pretend not to notice because it would kill the entire game?
Which brings us back to tree rings. Heat followed by afternoon thunderstorms will likely give more growth than overcast weather with the same amount of rain – though maybe not at night, if the temp stays high due to cloud cover. It’s never just the numbers of millimetres and degrees…it’s the PATTERN of cloudiness, rain and warmth you have to know an awful lot about.
Then you have to reconcile all the other complicating factors raised by commenters like Menicholas, Michael C and usurbrain. And, of course, one simply can’t reconcile it all. Better to live with permanent uncertainty than with junky assumptions turned into tables and graphs.
I agree mosomoso: On the Canadian prairies the combo of temp and precip matters most. The temp is seldom a limiting factor because it really doesn’t vary that much. The timing of precip, however, is ultra-important. Because we are a “DRY AREA”, precip plays the major role. Even in years when climate is not favourable, as long as you have enough moisture for germination, one early rain and one mid-summer rain is all you need for a good crop. We call the mid-summer rain a “million dollar rain”. Why would trees respond any differently?
ferd – a 1c variation over 3 centuries derived from tree ring data? Thanks for the work. Its interesting but really of no use – to anyone – except to re-establish that we, as yet, know F.A. We need more poker players here to give us the home truths 🙂
but really of no use
================
it establishes that if tree rings are an accurate temperature proxy, then CO2 CANNOT be the cause of the modern warming, because the warming started more than 100 years before significant CO2 production.
The way truth is established in science is by elimination all possibilities that cannot be the cause. So far CO2 was the ONLY thing that had not been eliminated. This result eliminates CO2, which means that the real cause of the modern warming IS UNKNOWN.
They now say that Industrial Revolution began in 1750….
Ferd writes: “it establishes that if tree rings are an accurate temperature proxy”
So, if fudge brownies were an accurate temperature proxy? It’s a big If Ferd, and the subject of the conversation I believe. Asking anyone to simply take that as given absent any evidence is a very large stretch I think.
“CO2 CANNOT be the cause of the modern warming, because the warming started more than 100 years before significant CO2 production.”
CO2 CANNOT be the cause of warming because over the past 19 years we’re observed a very large increase in atmospheric CO2 and no increase in average global temperature. That requires no “belief” in tree rings and their relationship to temperature or CO2; it’s a conclusion based on direct measures of temperature and CO2.
CO2 has been eliminated near as I can tell Ferd. The RSS AGT data for the lower trope taken over the past 19 odd years hasn’t changed significantly. CO2 has risen over that same time period by more than 30% of all CO2 ever released by humans.
It’s now impossible to claim CO2 causes warming. There is absolutely no basis for the claim. It’s absurd to complicate this question by adding chicken bones, tarot cards, tree rings or spirit tapings to the equation.
ferd – Can we really trust tree ring data to be accurate within 1c over 3 centuries (or at any time) ? Its not something that someone with any sense would bet money on. This is the kind of flimsy argument that the alarmists use. The topic is cluttered with such worthless information. We always have to consider the odds of probability in relation to the robustness of the data
PS: this is not a personal attack. Cheers 🙂
Can we really trust tree ring data to be accurate within 1c over 3 centuries (or at any time)
=============
I’m suspicious that the proxy data may have been already “calibrated”, in which case it cannot be trusted at all.
If these proxies are a random sample of trees from a temperature limited area, that would be reasonable. However, if these are tree ring samples that have been filtered based on how well they correlate with thermometer data, then we are looking at statistical garbage data.
The entire field of Dendrochronology has a serious problem with “selecting on the dependent variable”. Google the term. The other sciences like medicine and economics have woken up to the problem, by Climate Science is still stuck in the Dark Ages of statistics.
Statistics relies on the assumption that your data is a random sample. Your are trying to solve for temperature from the tree rings. Temperature is the dependent variable. If you use temperature to filter the tree rings, you are introducing selection bias.
In effect, the original problem is solve:
temperature = function (tree rings)
calibration turns this problem into
temperature = function (tree rings, temperature)
And what statistics does is solve this as:
temperature = 0 * tree rings + 1 * temperature
And as a result you can prove up is down, left is right, or CO2 causes warming, or CO2 causes cooling. Anything you want.
The entire field of Dendrochronology
=================
correction: dendroclimatologists
I’m not sure we can quite go that far but we can probably deduce the climatic conditions of the time from tree rings. Since temperature will be a factor in those conditions we can probably have a reasonable stab at the relative warmth of the MWP and the LIA and the 20th century.
Everyone’s getting hung up on the accuracy and precision of the proxies and the method used to estimate the anomalies. It’s probably more accurate to think of the anomalies as climate indices.
This latest study is not the same as the Mann study which was wrong on 2 main counts. Mann’s use of PCA introduced the anomalous and unrealistic post-1900 uptick in temperatures but, worse than that, Mann’s reconstruction used the thermometer record to represent that last few decades of the series. He was comparing apples with grapefruits.
The N-TREND15 researchers have, rightly or wrongly , been prepared to stand of fall by a methodology which they have applied consistently across the entire time series. If there is a criticism of bias it is that they extended their analysis up to 2004 which might be pushing it a bit given the drop off in the number of proxies available.
Industrial Revolution began in 1750
==========================
It probably began in 3500 BC, with the invention of the wheel.
Humans have been emitting excess CO2 since 1 million BC with the domestication of fire. That is what caused the end of the Ice Ages.
“Humans have been emitting excess CO2 since 1 million BC with the domestication of fire. That is what caused the end of the Ice Ages.”
OK. Now I get the joke. Once again I’ve failed to read the implied /sarc. Got me.
We also cooked all them thar dinosaurs and et them all up. Yup.
MMMMMMMMmmmmmm…..Brontosaur Burgers……DOH !!
At school they taught us it started with Hargreaves and Arkwright, but here’s a good timeline.
http://www.victorianweb.org/technology/ir/irchron.html
RoHa, that timeline omits the loom, invented in 1404, pushing back the industrial age another 150 odd years.
It also credits Edison rather than Swann with the incandescent lamp.
However, I am inclined to begin the industrial revolution with mechanised mass production, not powered by humans or animals. (Early printing presses were human powered.)
A tricky bit here. Do windmills and watermills for grinding corn count as mass production? The dark Satanic mills of Britain were called mills because the first cotton and wool weaving factories were water powered.
Once they are steam powered, then we are clearly industrial. Perhaps, for our staring dates, we should look more at the social effects than the means employed. It was, after all, a revolution.
I suppose a person could suggest the industrial age began with the engine then, but that would take it back at least to the water or wind mill as you suggest. I think common wisdom centers on the steam engine as the beginning?
Newcomen, then. 1712.
But I didn’t know there was any common wisdom, just what we learned at school. We all learned that there was an Agricultural Revolution (crop rotation and Jethro Tull) and then an industrial revolution. Both these things happened in England, and the benefits extended to Australia when it was settled. Might have affected the rest of the world, but no-one gave a toss about that.
It was only long after we had left school that we found out that Tull invented the seed drill in between gigs.
Tea for the Tillerman ??
Ferdberple wrote: “correction: dendroclimatologists”
Or perhaps we can broaden that to PaleoClimatologists?
The sad (and inconvenient) truth is climatology is no longer a backyard science. The advent of Average Global Temperature, which was historically measured by amateurs who trusted one another and did their very best, as scientists, to provide the highest quality data they were capable of, and who implicitly trusted each other, has been co-opted by “big science” and there’s no turning back.
We’re now completely dependent on data provided by billion dollar, multi-national, government sanctioned efforts. We depend on a communications architecture that was once un-regulated, became regulated, became un-regulated again briefly, and is now regulated again.
I tend to believe the data I receive from Mauna Loa and RSS. Why? Because I think it makes sense. Do I have any guarantee it represent some kind of scientific integrity? No, I don’t. I don’t know if those data have been manipulated. No idea at all.
You are a wise man, Bartleby
John Finn: Of what value are ball-park figures of a degree or two of temperature change when they are claiming 0.04 degrees with a 38% probability?
Because you are using the proxy reconstructions and the surface temperature record for 2 different things.
John Finn:
R2Dtoo asked you
and your total reply says
Your evasion is ridiculous!
R2Dtoo made no mention of uses. He asked you a straight question and your silly evasion demonstrates that you know its answer is
ball-park figures of a degree or two of temperature change have no value when they are claiming 0.04 degrees with a 38% probability.
Richard
Another day at the garbage (data) dump. Look we used the same data and got the same results. How surprising. I’m shocked!!
Thanks Willis for yet another excellent critique. The “Expert Judgement of the original authors” seems to have been primarily deployed to recreate at all costs, the previously demolished Hockey Stick for re-use in 2016.
How much do trees preserve a record of temperature and how much do they preserve a record of rainfall variation, fertilisation from animals, lightning strikes and forest fires, variation in tree age ring width, variation from topography, and finally variation of CO2 levels?
You forgot cloud cover / sunshine !!
And socialist tendencies! Trees are very social.
Bartleby:
Actually, yes. Trees are very social and communicate with each other for mutual benefit.
As the link says
Evolution selects for the most effective systems.
Richard
Richard I most certainly did know trees are social, as a matter of personal history I once owned some land with a large quaking aspen forest on it. Some folks claim an aspen forest in (Colorado?) is the largest living organism on the planet.
Abe,
I have read several of your comments over the past couple months, and I am unclear/confused about what you are claiming “bottom-line” if you will, about the overall effect of atmosphere on planet temps. Could you please indicate (in a rough way) what you believe would be observed (particularly in terms of general temps) if;
The Earth had half it’s actual atmosphere
The Earth had twice it’s actual atmosphere
I think Abe is generally speaking of a subject which is requested by our host not to be discussed…that CO2 cools the atmosphere…it does not warm it. This is also called the sky dragon theory or something like that.
Menicholas,
I’m asking what Abe believes would be observed, if the Earth had half/twice it’s actual atmosphere. He’s obviously allowed to express his opinions about such things, and I simply want to get a better grasp of what his perspective/approach entails . .
“… well … a strangely circuitous route. I mean, if you start with proxy temperatures in degrees C and you are looking to calculate an average temperature in degrees C, why change it to something else in between?”
Willis,mare you really so naïve? If they don’t do it that way, they might get the wrong answer.
Should be “are you”.
I make the following bets;
One of the proxies will be upside down.
Several of the proxies will have been described as not useful for temperature reconstructions.
There will be bristlecone pines involved.
The mapping of proxies will be wrong.
What is missing is more significant than what is included.
What is missing is more significant than what is included.
================
the proxies will have been “calibrated”. In other words, they will have been filtered according to how well they fit the thermometer data.
ferdberple:
You say
Yes, and that is the confounding problem with the formulating assumption of dendroclimatology.
The entire activity of dendroclimatology is attempts to justify an untrue assumption;
i.e. dendroclimatology and astrology are similar activities in both their theories and their practices.
The basic method and practice of dendroclimatology is as follows.
1.
Trees are selected as being good “indicators” of temperature over the ‘calibration’ period.
2.
That selection assumes the trees with rings that correlate to temperature are indicative of temperature.
3.
The assumption is not valid because natural variability will result in some trees correlating to temperature if sufficient trees are examined.
(Astrology assumes that planetary positions correlate to events on Earth.)
Richard
NOTHING from California should be used to gage global climate situations because, like Australia, California has a ‘non-ice age’ environment that varies rather little compared to other places like, say, England which moves from Ice Age total glaciation to very mild climate, even warm.
The main place to keep track of all this is Hudson Bay. All glaciation of North America starts there and when it is ice-free is when the climate is very warm. It is frozen over as per usual right now as it is in winter these days so our present Interglacial isn’t so hot, after all, is it?
The Port of Churchill in is Hudson Bay. A few years ago they thought that global warming would open the port for a longer season. Now they are trying to sell the port. Nough said!
Based on the (minimal) data post 1988, I don’t see how they come up with a “hockey stick” graph. Good job Willis!!!
It may turn out that that’s exactly how they got their hockey stick: thin data inflated by means of (1) bizarre weighting factors acting on a handful of defective series; (2) end effects; (3) mathematical error; and (4) gigantic error limits. I hope not. That final data point looks highly suspicious.
I suspect that there is probably a wealth of useful research out there that – because it has been presented in the most appropriate manner – has not been identified in relation to climate studies. A good paper simply presents background, method and results, and a discussion on inferal without necessarily linking to climate change. True? Ironical. Only the arm-wavers are noticed
@ntesdorf
Good question. The dendroclimatologists like Wilson et al. are claiming that recent increases in tree ring widths are a direct response to recent global warming caused by recent man-made CO2.
All of those other factors you mentioned above are probably involved too. But I think increased CO2 levels may really be the biggest factor. But not because of global warming. It seems to me that increased CO2 directly will increase the amount of carbon fixation in the tree ring growth. In other words, the tree rings should be wider now because there because the tree produces more cellulose and other organic material from the additional carbon absorbed from ambient CO2 in the atmosphere.
Of course plants grow faster in the summer when it’s warmer, and not so much in the winter when it’s colder. That’s very basic science. So increased tree ring width may also be correlated to temperature, but temperature is not the cause of the recent increases in tree ring widths. (Because temperatures have risen much during the last 18 years)
Increased CO2 is more likely to be the cause of tree ring growth and is in fact responsible for the increased greening of the entire planet.
So why doesn’t the Green movement embrace CO2, that wonderful and amazing plant food?
Politics.
So why doesn’t the Green movement embrace CO2, that wonderful and amazing plant food?
Because CO2 is the debil.
> I’m not sure “dendroclimatologists like Wilson et al. are claiming …
Then why do they seem to be fabricating an egregious “hockey stick” where none exists in the instrument record? I haven’t read this latest paper, but I would be willing to bet they pay homage to the AGW god somewhere in that document.
John Finn January 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
Thanks, John, but I’m not clear what your point might be. Do you think we should be congratulating the authors because they haven’t done anything underhanded?
w.
No, Willis, I’m suggesting we don’t get too bogged down with the precision and accuracy of the anomalies and look at the relative period values. Whether by luck or design the reconstruction has managed to produce a record of past climate which is not too different to that recognised by a number of AGW-sceptical researchers.
Put it this way: I wouldn’t dream of comparing anomalies from the reconstruction with anomalies from the thermometer record but I might find the relative values of, say, 1946-55 (0.30) and 1812-21 (-1.03) credible, i.e. I’m happy to accept that mid-20th century temperatures in the NH were about a degree or so higher than in the early 19th century.
I’m not criticising your analysis Willis which is perfectly valid but the response to it from readers. It’s important to recognise the distinction between this study and the Mann H-S study and this one.
Which thermometer record?
The altered ones?
Or the real ones?
John Finn January 17, 2016 at 2:28 am
Say what? Until you determine the precision of the anomalies, you have no clue if the relative period values are valid or not. For example, the recent part of the record might be fairly precise, but the previous period might not be precise at all. In that case, you cannot make any assumptions about the relative period values … and we have no assurance that ANY part of this greatly munged record has the slightest resemblance to the temperature.
You can’t just wave your hands and say something like “Well, it looks kinda like what I think the temperature history ought to look like, so I can use relative values to compare periods”.
w.
Eh, rent seekers.
Me thinks the swinging pendulum of scientific integrity will start to turn when this flock of boomers retires en masse and emeriti outnumber rent seekers. Seems reasonable.
Reminds me of the fed chiefs who retire and start speaking out about the illegal front running that took place while they were at the helm.
Willis – too much here to even hope going through and I will wait for anything coming through CA.
However, the nesting approach used to derive the recon (and calibration/validation stats) in Figure 2 is essentially averaging. Just an iterative approach meaning that the averaged are re-calculated every time a shorter series drops out.
As stated, the record shows “reasonable” fidelity for the period 918-2004 – before/after replication drops too low and the estimates get erratic. I certainly would not trust the 2010 value for example.
Finally – please look at Appendix Figure C1 – there are multiple different flavours – derived using different weighting strategies and methods. I am thankful that you have replicated the basic shape that is expressed in the large scale mean.
Thanks, Dendrob. I understand that the nesting approach is a flavor of averaging. It has to be, or else the authors wouldn’t get a “reconstruction” which is essentially a simple average.
I’m more concerned about the entire chain from observation to reconstruction, viz:
• Certain tree rings were selected for examination by a variety of authors, based typically on unknown or incorrect metrics, and without clear ex-ante proxy selection criteria. I would be shocked if among the 53 proxy records a significant number of individual tree ring records had not been data snooped or chosen based on their correspondence with local temperature.
• These authors either utilized or developed some mechanism for transforming raw tree ring measurements into temperature estimates.
• Other authors select previous reconstructions for examination, again based on unknown metrics, and without clear ex-ante proxy selection criteria.
° These reconstructions are normalized based on an arbitrary time period, in this case 1750-1950,
° These normalized reconstructions are averaged, and the average is declared to represent the temperature history of the Northern Hemisphere.
I’m sorry, but I don’t find that process to be either particularly reassuring, mathematically defensible, or precise. Too many authors, too many different methods, too many transformations, plus the normalization equals large and unknown error bars.
Best regards,
w.
I am confused. I thought that proxies In the Briffa reconstructions showed a decline after 1960 (“hide the decline”). Not so according to Wilson’s graph where the proxies do show a sharp increase in the T anomalies.
There is a decline. The pre-1990 peak temperature occurs in the 1946-55 period. The temperatures don’t reach that level again until 1994-2003.
Ignore the post-2000 values. The number of proxies available was significantly lower than for previous periods.
From the study paper:
It’s methodology may be flawed (though I’m not convinced this is terribly relevant) but this is not a pro-AGW study.
To Willis and others who have argued against some of the points I’ve made in this thread.
I’ve been as a big a critic as anyone about the inappropriate use of tree ring proxies to estimate temperatures. This is a link from 2004 which includes an exchange between myself and Michael Mann about many of the issues which have been discussed here.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/myths-vs-fact-regarding-the-hockey-stick/
I’ve since had a fairly detailed look into the issue. I know about (and accept) the “upturned U” response to temperature. We all know that temperature is not the only – or even the main – driver of tree ring growth. I’ve taken all these issues on board and have formed the following conclusions:
1. Can we use tree rings to estimate temperature anomaly for a year or multi-year period and compare it with a similar length period in the thermometer record. No We can’t – No chance
2. Can we select an anomaly for a single year from a proxy reconstruction and compare it with the anomaly for a different year (e.g. 1250 v 1850) No we can’t – not even to say that Yr1 is warmer or colder than Yr2
3. Can we select a decadal (or multi-decadal) period from a proxy reconstruction and compare it with another decadal (or multi-decadal) period from the same reconstruction and make any assumptions about the relative warmth of the 2 periods. Yes – I think we can and I think it might also possible to put a ball park figure on the temperature difference between the 2 periods.
This study finds an extended MWP which is about a degree or so warmer than the LIA. It also finds that the late 20th century is also about 1 degree warmer than the LIA. It finds no evidence for modern warming being warmer than the MWP or vice versa. I’ll dig out Hubert Lamb’s reconstructed temperature series to see how it compares.
Of course there is one problem with the study. It finds that 1946-55 was warmer than any other non-overlapping decade up until the mid-1990s.
“Yes – I think we can and I think it might also possible to put a ball park figure on the temperature difference between the 2 periods”
John – 1 C is one blade of grass in the ball park. Tree rings read to this precision? Sorry, nah. Annual rainfall variation as a percentage compared with temperature variation? And what about seasonal variation? Ask a gardener about that
I am a skeptic of very precise results. No offence intended
You should be skeptical of precise measurements in heterogeneous environments. Unfortunately, healthy skepticism of the above perpetuates the funding of yet even more effort to develop precision. This of course then leads to tunnel vision concerning the particular variable you are measuring. Then of course multitudes of trained measurers gather together in fancy places beating their breasts concerning the true measurements for the one variable that answers all things.
Then they get tenure and teach others the above process. Science will maintain the rut of hubris until they can figure out how to unravel the above.
I get your point. The trend now is to find a trend whereas within the time frames we are looking, and within unbiased data collection, results are more likely to show a mosaic of noise ie no obvious trend within the practical degrees of accuracy. The pre 1950 sea temperature ‘result’ could easily be as much as 3 C out. Someone prove me wrong! 🙂
why aren’t these people in jail?