Wow, just wow. I told Dr. Tom Peterson in an email this summer that their highly questionable paper that adjusted SST’s of the past to erase the “pause” was going to become “their waterloo”, and Peterson’s response was to give the email to wackadoodle climate blogger Miriam O’Brien (aka Sou Bundanga) so she could tout it with the usual invective spin that she loves to do. How “professional” of Peterson, who made the issue political payback with that action.
Another reminder of Peterson’s “professionalism” is this political cartoon he made portraying climate scientists holding different published opinions as “nutters”, while working on the taxpayer’s dime, courtesy of the Climategate emails in 2009:
Now, it looks like Karl and Peterson think they are above the law and forget who they actually work for. They’ve really stepped in it now.
Via The Hill:
Agency won’t give GOP internal docs on climate research
The federal government’s chief climate research agency is refusing to give House Republicans the detailed information they want on a controversial study on climate change.
Citing confidentiality concerns and the integrity of the scientific process, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) said it won’t give Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) the research documents he subpoenaed.
At the center of the controversy is a study that concluded there has not been a 15-year “pause” in global warming. Some NOAA scientists contributed to the report. Skeptics of climate change, including Smith, have cited the pause to insist that increased greenhouse gas emissions, mostly from burning fossil fuels, are not heating up the globe.
Smith, the chairman of the House Science Committee, vehemently disagreed with the study’s findings. He issued a subpoena for communications among the scientists and some data, leading to charges from Democrats that he was trying to intimidate the researchers.
Late Tuesday, NOAA provided Smith with some more information about its methods and data but refused to give Smith everything he wanted.
NOAA spokeswoman Ciaran Clayton said the internal communications are confidential and not related to what Smith is trying to find out.
“We have provided data, all of which is publicly available online, supporting scientific research, and multiple in-person briefings,” she said.
“We stand behind our scientists who conduct their work in an objective manner. It is the end product of exchanges between scientists — the detailed publication of scientific work and the data that underpins the authors’ findings — that are key to understanding the conclusions reached.”
Clayton also refuted Smith’s implication that the study was political.
“There is no truth to the claim that the study was politically motivated or conducted to advance an agenda,” she said. “The published findings are the result of scientists simply doing their job, ensuring the best possible representation of historical global temperature trends is available to inform decisionmakers, including the U.S. Congress.”
Smith defended his investigation, saying NOAA’s work is clearly political.
“It was inconvenient for this administration that climate data has clearly showed no warming for the past two decades,” he said in a statement. “The American people have every right to be suspicious when NOAA alters data to get the politically correct results they want and then refuses to reveal how those decisions were made.”
Smith also said NOAA’s assertion of confidentiality is incorrect.
“The agency has yet to identify any legal basis for withholding these documents,” he said, adding that his panel would use “all tools at its disposal” to continue investigating. Smith has been communicating with NOAA about the research since it was published in the summer, and their exchanges have grown increasingly hostile. Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (Texas), the committee’s ranking Democrat, has sharply criticized Smith’s requests.”
h/t to WUWT reader “catcracking”
The purpose of the Karl et al. paper was to erase the pause, clearly a political move, and one that is already backfiring in the scientific arena as noted climatologist Gerald Meehl has made some pushback against their politically based science.
Note: about ten minutes after publication, this story was edited to fix some text formatting errors.
They’ll probably go after the RSS data too, and claim it has to be adjusted, as it doesn’t properly reflect the Hot Air arising out of NOAA
Same, same in Australia, “when NOAA alters data to get the politically correct results they want and then refuses to reveal how those decisions were made.” Substitute BoM (Bureau of Meteorology) for NOAA and the situation is the same, fiddle (Homogenize) the numbers so that you can obtain the result you want, claim the HOTTEST EVER, and then refuse to tell us how you got there. Thankfully, we have a wonderful bunch of skeptics that have been pocking all sorts of holes in BoM numbers, still they refuse categorically to release the “Models” they used…. Shonks!
What model?
‘The Forum noted that the extent to which the development of the ACORN-SAT dataset from the raw data could be automated was likely to be limited, and that the process might better be described as a supervised process in which the roles of metadata and other information required some level of expertise and operator intervention.’
How do you model “operator intervention”?
Re: “How do you model “operator intervention”?”
The most dangerous part of an automotive vehicle, the part most likely to fail.. is..
“The nut behind the wheel.”
There is your “operator intervention”.
Re: “How do you model “operator intervention”?”
Dunno, beats me but perhaps the IT experts ex VW could help us all out here?
Off topic… Just finished watching the Republican Presidential debate. It seems that some of the candidates actually believe in CAGW and are supporting renewables. I am disappointed that these candidates have not been more well informed of the issues. That global warming is not yet a settled issue and that the science is still out to lunch.
It would be a really good idea for the issues concerning global warming, or not… or some, or none, be brought to the attention of these conservatives running for the Presidency so that they are not ignorant of the facts. Many of them seen uninformed or only aware of the media hype about it. Since it is an issue with such a huge potential for having a very large effect on our economy, etc, etc, there should be a concerted effort by this site and any other individuals or organizations concerned with the issue to bring to these candidates a better understanding of the facts. What can we or this website do to accomplish this?
Anthony Watts, you are batter up in the game here. Any ideas for an effort to accomplish this mission?
Dahlquist
Supporting renewables is not a completely bad thing – if done for the right reasons and in the right way.
Ted Cruz knows exactly what’s going on with “CAGW”–he’s been outspoken in his criticism of this nefarious trick. Support Cruz if you want an honest assessment and response to the clowns that have made a mockery of science, politics, and policy.
@ Dahlquist October 28, 2015 at 9:35 pm and Nylo October 28, 2015 at 11:45 pm
They are politicians with money men backers. There is huge money in the scam particularly in guaranteed government funding for subsidy farms. It is the guaranteed returns that got Warren Buffet into the game. Who cares about the poor not being able to afford heating – look at the returns when compared to any other investment. This is a trough that the backers of these candidates do not want to see taken away. So they will all believe in faeries if required just to keep their greedy backers happy.
vote for Cruz
Warren Buffet said: “”I will do anything that is basically covered by the law to reduce Berkshire’s tax rate,” “For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That’s the only reason to build them. They don’t make sense without the tax credit.”
And Buffet’s company, now believed to be the largest wind farmer in the USA, generates $1 billion a year in wind and solar tax credits. Pretty sweet.
We were told that wind farms were here to save the planet. I think they lied.
The only thing they “believe in” is whatever statement will get them the most votes, period.
I am prepared to be a single issue voter, and only when more voters signal such, will the other candidates see the light.
I have joined the Cruz campaign(a first for me, as I am basically non- political…or at least was) as a financial supporter and a volunteer.
I urge others who see this as a transformative issue to line up behind someone who will derail this headlong rush to dismantle our economy and give away the store.
I know Cruz will.
Who else?
Several in the junior debate declared support for CAGW, as did Christy.
Can anyone else list the positions of the others on climate?
@menicholas:
http://iceagenow.info/2015/10/where-do-candidates-stand-on-global-warming/
Dalquist:
It seems that some of the candidates actually believe in CAGW and are supporting renewables. I am disappointed that these candidates have not been more well informed of the issues.
Jim McGinn:
Personally, I don’t believe any candidate, regardless of party, genuinely believes in AGW. I think they all realize that if you want to get elected it’s best to not stand in opposition to any religious belief.
I feel so violated after listening to both party’s in the U.S. that it want’s to make me scream off the roof tops ! Stop the nonsense, it’s about control. And with the help from everyone that is not a dope(APGW)person we can get over it!Lean on the people by your vote. Bring into question “global warming” anytime,anywhere,because you know the truth!Say No to higher taxes to fight this “supposed problem” and get on with the job that people put you in place for.Has anything been fixed yet?Social security,medicare,unemployment? Although, just look at the danger we’re in “if we don’t wok fast”Punch line-we are getting screwed!
Love to everyone that believes!
Woot… Waterloo!
Neither this Congress nor the one elected in 2012 (some new senators came on board too) has shown no inclination, and no practical efforts, to do anything except what Obama had asked. What reason do we have to expect that this time will be different? And, IRS stood firm, Congress demanded, FBI investigated, and no charges were brought. The Republican Leadership in the House and Senate will continue to do everything Obama wants. They are nothing more than a weak appendage of Obama and the Democrat leadership.
Seems to me that Karl and Peterson have nothing to lose by defying the House and everything to gain by pleasing Obama.
Totally agree. The GOP are a bunch of eunuchs.
Karl and Peterson would have everything to gain if they could show their honesty and integrity. But it appears the evidence would show otherwise, so they must refuse any FOIA or congressional requests. Their obstruction will have nothing but negative consequences. Hopefully we will have another whistle blower like climate-gate.
I call them ‘CryptoCrats.’
Anyone doubting that, should look at the recently passed budget deal. Obama got about 110% of what he demanded.
“no inclination” should be “any inclination”.
The difference between “Demicans” and “Republocrats”.. is..
They both want to steal more of your money, and they both want to steal more of your rights.
The only difference is, they argue about what to spend the money on, and what right to steal next.
Remember, the Boston Tea Party (BTP) was about a 3% tax.
[[The astute reader might reply.. No, the BTP was about ‘taxation without representation’. Witness the electoral college, and entire states being carried by either a Democan or a Republicrat. I’ve never voted for either. Where is my representation?]]
I am almost speechless. Government contracts require contractors to reveal everything; but government bureaucrats who write and sign those same contracts feel they have no obligation to do the same.
Isn’t the Obama administration supposed to be the most “transparent” in history? Guess you have to define transparency. One way glass with the mirror on the public side. Transparent in only one direction.
Leonard, Sorry, I think you underestimate the success that a Republican congress has had to slow down the agenda of the Administration on climate change, regulations, carbon tax, exposing the crimes of the IRS, exposing the EPA administrator and now initiating action against NOAA. Many of us would like more action but it become difficult with the complicit MSM and a DOJ that will not prosecute any crimes by Democrats unless they criticize any action by the Administration: e.g. Senator Menendez from NJ. Check how many court cases they lost taking actions beyond the authority of the executive branch
Remember the last time the Democrats had total control they pushed through Obamacre without one R vote.
Think where we would be if we still had a Democrat controlled congress, any worse off?
I do strongly wish the Congress could do a lot more.
X100
The difference between Republicans and Democrats:
Democrats want big govt.
Republicans want big govt to be efficient.
@MarkW
My view is that on a national level, the only difference is the speed at which the handcart is headed to hell.
The remedy is a simple rule for govt. money: if you take the money, all your data and communications are public.
Correct.
Even in private industry, there has never been an illusion that any email I send from my work account was in any way private, or, protected.
C’mon Obummer, admit that global warming does not exist. Admit that the periods of Medieval, Roman, Minoan, and the Holocene Optimum were all warmer than now. Admit that the Eocene was warmer than the Holocene. C’mon, dude. Speak no longer with forked tongue.
” if you take the money, all your data and communications are public”
But they’re saving the planet. Obviously they are above those little things like probity and integrity.
Our (& Congress’) role is to give them more money. Then think what they’re told to think. The Australian National University (ANU) recently had a very illuminating advertising campaign: “Joint the thought police”. Actually they said thought leader, but I kept reading thought police. Certainly that is how I think they meant it before they sanitized it for public consumption.
At Catcracking. Well I guess we agree to disagree. I don’t think we would be much worse off under a Democrat controlled Congress. When the Republican leadership in the House and Senate give Obama everything he demands I don’t see much difference.
Every Republican in the House and Senate leadership promised the country to get rid of Obamacare, control illegal immigration, reduce deficit spending, etc., etc. when campaigning for the 2010,2012, and 2014 and after they were elected did exactly the opposite of what they promised. Then to grind it into our face, when Boehner was run out as Speaker, what do they do? They let Paul Ryan make the Republicans accept his conditions before he would run. Instead of fighting those ridiculous conditions, the Republicans accepted them and them make him Speaker. A bad business all the way around. Being” big government” supporters, does not show they are different than the Democrats.
My experience has always been that the private sector believe that hacking public sector computers is fair game. Whereas the public sector see it as a way of avoiding consultancy fees.
The question you should be asking is whether all computers have wireless transmitters meaning that even if you keep a computer away from the internet from day 1 of its existence, the spooks and hackers can still get access to your private work.
Osama bin Laden was on the money where privacy was concerned – he did all his business inside a deep cave in Tora Bora, free of the CIA satellites!!
Under Democrats, the country is racing towards a cliff at 100mph.
The Republicans promise to slow us down to 90mph.
I though we call that the Freedom of Information Act
They have made “adjustments” so blatantly self-serving and indefensible that even a Member of Congress can see through them, and dare not allow their methods to be examined.
What a couple of sanctimonious putzes. They want to change the world’s economy and all of human behavior but their data can’t stand up to review by a political opponent?
If they won’t show the data, then the data doesn’t exist, therefore; their self-doubts don’t exist, therefore; they can use RICO to prosecute non compliant skeptics.
What utter @sses.
Karl and Peterson. You are UNSCIENTIFIC propagandist liars.
“They want to change…”
They where told to change…”. When the boss says jump.
Reading is fundamental. They’re not refusing to show data and methods, they’re refusing to show communications between the researchers. There’s a difference. I’m not advocating their refusal, they clearly have no claim of confidentiality, but your rant is unfounded as written.
OK…
cut “data”…replace “conspiracy about their data”
Fair enough. Is my rant ok now?
I think the quote for the subpoena is “He issued a subpoena for communications among the scientists and some data, leading…” so…”data” is fine. After all, this brief comment is in context to above posting. I am not writing a paper.
Besides, it is Clayton, a spokeswoman spin doctor who claimed that data and methods NOT all data and NOT ALL methods were provided. Clayton is full of cr@p. So, the slime balls have held back data and their methods because some of their methods are in their conspiracy.
My rant stands.
Reading and UNDERSTANDING is fundamental.
If you recall Cimategate 1 & 2, a lot of critical insight into the thinking of these people is found in the candid communications they exchanged. Karl & Peterson presumably know that they are vulnerable to having their true motives disclosed and that they have something to fear.
Reply.
Reading and UNDERSTANDING is fundamental.
It is the spokeswoman who, of course, has made the claim that some data and methods were provided not ALL data and ALL methods, those in particular that contributed to the fudging of the results. There is more data. There are more methods… the sleaze methods in particular, and there are the Hillary-esque a la Climategate data files, emails, computer programs, all that BS that happens behind the scenes.
I am not taking the word of Ciaran Clayton.
There claim was that not revealing emails which did not have data would protect the science. (Insane, science is always protected by full disclosure.) An email saying, we need more warming here, and more cooling in the past, would protect the science, by exposing the bias. Paris will be here and gone long before we get all the info. Benghazi is what, two years old, and we still do not have all the communication, and still have not interviewed most of the personnel on the ground.
David..exactly.
Jeff you are wrong. If they used government emails, even if responding to a private email that if open to FOIA. In addition if they used or set up a private email to evade FOIA that is also not only open to FOIA but also criminal charges.
It’s not that it CAN’T stand up…it doesn’t NEED to stand up to it.
And that’s the whole problem.
If there’s another Climategate style leak that discloses the discussions before this paper…
And if those discussions did reveal a bias towards an intended result…
Well, we can dream.
If the comments made by the NOAA spokesperson have been reported accurately they have shades of the apparent comments said to have been made to an Australian climate scientist in 2004 by Professor Phil Jones:
‘Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it.’
Is withholding information in this manner a normal response by others in different fields being questioned by this type of US committee?
Tonyb
MC and CR, I just did a little brushup on the Congressional committee’s options. Failure of NOAA to comply with a proper Congressional committee investigatiin subpoena is contempt of congress, 2USCA198. First, was the subpoena proper. Smith’s commitee has oversight of science and technology. This is their turf. Second, consequences. Contemptmof congress is criminal, and each act thereof is punishable by a $1000 fine AND 12 months imprinsonment. Now the question is only how many acts by how many people. Remedy, subpoena the NOAA administrator and each of the Karl and Huang paper co-authors individually. One of Smith’s next likely moves, now that he knows NOAA has something to hide.
Correction. 2USC192, not 198.
ristvan, given that the facts are as you say, It still takes a Department of Justice official action to do anymore than slap them on the wrist. They could be hauled in front of the Committee, take the Fifth, and nothing more will happen to them before March of 2017 at the earliest.
Such is the state of the State in the United States.
Interesting read on the topic of Congressional subpoena powers:
https://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44ac-8344-5d5fab374ffa/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11509b8b-df81-4db6-9e89-1d1b16c20856/White-Paper-Congressional-Subpoena.pdf
Money Quote:
Side note: One of the co-authors is former Congressman Dave McIntosh, now heading the Club for Growth.
Of course the sergeant at arms can just be sent to collect both them and the data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_at_Arms_of_the_United_States_Senate
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/10/gop-congressman-we-just-filed-a-resolution-directing-the-sergeant-at-arms-to-arrest-lois-lerner-for-contempt/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2007/04/house_arrest.html
I have included example by both camps.
Congress passes laws, the obligation of seeing that they are enforced is delegated to them. A spending bill that includes funds for NOAA is A LAW! NOAA is accountable to Congress and congress is accountable to “US”
Let them cool their heels in a cell until they comply
michael duhancik
Yes, see Benghazi. http://r.duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discoverthenetworks.org%2FviewSubCategory.asp%3Fid%3D1755
Anthony writes, “…Peterson’s response was to give the email to wackadoodle climate blogger Miriam O’Brien (aka Sou Bundanga)…”
Wackadoodle is an excellent choice of words.
That should be spelled “Whackadoodle”.
I dunno, seems to fit?
US informal
adjective: wack
1.bad; inferior.
“a wack radio station”
noun: wack; plural noun: wacks
1.a crazy or eccentric person.
2.worthless or stupid ideas, work, or talk; rubbish.
Urban dictionary goes further.
Quackadoodle, anyone?
If his intention was to cause embarrassment you would have thought that he would have passed it on somewhere where it would be seen by more than a handful of people.
I think “Slandering Sou” is more accurate, but Whackadoodle is quite apropos for that “utter nutter” http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/11/20/hotwhoppers-miriam-obrien-hoisted-by-her-own-petard/
Nit: That is “hoist by her own petard”. See:
http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/hoisted-by-ones-own-petard.2232180/
“At the center of the controversy is a study that concluded there has not been a 15-year “pause” in global warming. ”
Well, that’s correct. Over 18 years now.
Lol. Correct. 18 yrs, 8 to 9 months, depending on how you choose to split the gnat’s behind.
So if the study is over and the results published, why wouldn’t they release all the documents asked for? How many times must we go through this. Perhaps an elimination of tax payer funding would loosen up their files.
Apparently, what they are most objecting to is any of their communications prior to the release of the paper. I hear the bearings on the SSD starting to fail now.
If you dont want your work e-mails public then dont work for the public. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the professional world public or private who does not know that e-mails to government employees on government servers are public record.
It goes beyond government servers. If the email is about their official job, they are obligated to preserve it no matter where it is stored or how it was sent. Of course, that rule has been treated with contempt by the administration, the IRS, and Hillary.
The issue NOAA is raising ShrNfr is the the other people in the e-mail conversations have an expectation of confidentiality. Thats bull anyone working in science knows or should know that government e-mails are public and there is no expectation of privacy.
“Bearings on the SSD”. Ha, that’s a good one!
Sarbox law also requires a lot of non govt email by businesses be kept for years. Lawyers is 7 yrs IIRC.
Failure to comply puts officers of the company in jail. No excuses allowed.
Hospitals have another set of requirements too.
” Perhaps an elimination of tax payer funding would loosen up their files.”
Not much chance of that with the girlie-man wimps we have in the Republican party.
Starting with the Speaker (Crybaby) of the Wimps, John Boehner.
I think that this kind of crap is why so many U.S. Citizens are becoming so angry with the government. Lies, hiding evidence, the disrespect of the people we elect to office in the Congress and Senate to get the facts for us, the people who pay these Assh*les, who work for us. The IRS scandal, Veterans Affairs, Obamas royal proclamations, Hillarys lies and email hiding, Iran nukes, completely failed foreign policy, etc, etc….
Now NOAA seems to think it is beyond the law and that they do not have to show the work they have been doing for us? I want to see what my tax money has gone into, including e mails, notes and any thing else they did on my dime. Why pay taxes if the organizations we pay for won’t show us the non confidential work they have done?
The House of Representatives is the people’s house. The money NOAA receives is the people’s money. If you want to conduct your business in the dark, take your own money and start your own business.
The audacity of these gluttons on government cheese is amazing. The fact these democrats refuse to perform their oversight responsibilities enables these pigs at the trough.
This is the travesty of the Clinton server. It’s true purpose was to deny Congressional oversight, which is a violation of the separation of powers. Of course the MSM ignores this fact.
Most of the rest of the executive branch has proven that they are above the law over the last 7 years, why should the NOAA be any different?
I suspect we will find that the e mails are on a personal account and the hard drive recently cratered. This is what happens in a corrupt administration from top to bottom.
Data centres are funny things, what people THINK they have permanently deleted, and what they HAVE permanently deleted, are often far different things.
What a couple of loons. Have they not watched Hilary Clinton trying to keep her email out of the public domain, and the results of that attempt?
They are probably thinking of it it as an example to follow: nothing happened to hilary, nothing is going to happen to her.
Same with the IRS anti-Tea Party jihad: nothing happened to them either – except the main perp whats-her-name got a bonus.
The obama junta protects (and rewards) its own.
Hillary will be indicted. Wait and see.
Do you know something we don’t? The ‘Justice’ Department just declined to prosecute Lois Lerner. Do you think Obama (or Valerie Jarret?) will tell them to indict Hillary? Not likely.
The only way to pry out the emails, data, etc. from NOAA is a FOIA demand. We need someone with contacts inside Landmark Legal Foundation (Mark Levin), or Heartland, or someone else with the budget and the stones for this sort of thing.
/Mr Lynn
time to start putting some of these bureaucrats butts in jail.
Like the Obama Justice Dept would actually do that.
Come on, is portraying scientists as children that different?
You seem to forget, that the majority of people at the “skeptical science” blog, are in fact, NOT scientists.
[Deleted. Fake name. This commenter has been banned repeatedly. ~mod.]
RE: dsiegel
October 28, 2015 at 1:22 pm
**Same it true for this blog**
Maybe the “majority” on WUWT are not scientists, but the sheer numbers of scientists here would vastly out number the scientists on most blogs, especially “skeptical science” where the same few repeat.
It’s amusing to me that the “dsiegel” sockpuppet (among his two dozen other fake names) just cannot keep from coming back here, even though his comments are quickly eliminated. That boy wastes a lot of effort for no payoff. ☺
RE: dsiegel
October 28, 2015 at 1:22 pm
**Same it true for this blog**
The difference is that the sheer numbers of scientists posting on this blog vastly outnumber those on “skeptical science” where they have the same few posting and we do not know how many are scientists.
dsiegel
I think you may be wrong there. As usual for climate morons you have no evidence. Be warned, one of the sceptic sites did a survey of contributers qualifications. Most were equal to or better than any climate criminal’s.
Same is true for anybody that calls themselves a meteorologist:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-3j
dsiegel:
Please look to right side of this page (says it all):
Unreliable*
Skeptical Science – John Cook
* Due to (1) deletion, extension and amending of user comments, and (2) undated post-publication revisions of article contents after significant user commenting.
Dead right. Cartoonists working in “science communication”.
When when any scientist abandons the Scientific Method, he proves that he’s NOT a scientist. When a layman asks questions,when he seeks measured, empirical data to test what he’s been told, he proves that he IS a scientist.
As far as I know, neither Josh nor Anthony are publishing cartoons on anyone else’s dime except their own. My taxes shouldn’t be going to pay for a supposed “scientist”‘, working for an entirely taxpayer-funded agency, to create political agenda- driven cartoons of any type.
Hans, is this the type “science” you want to pay for? I sure don’t.
Please identify the scientists in Josh’s cartoon, I don’t see any.
They can be as hostile as the wish toward Congress but it is the equivalent of a teenager telling mom they “ain’t gonna” well here is the deal: the golden rule applies and Congress has the gold and they will make the rules. This pair is only the tip of the berg in my opinion and the political agenda behind “scientific studies” is becoming all too apparent. These little snot wads can pitch a fit but I am thinking this Congress has had enough. Contempt of Congress, while they may think it cool to their moon bat buddies, isn’t the kind of resume builder I would want in the final years of my career. Game on!
Hopefully Paul Ryan will run a tighter ship in the house.
Since the House just passed a 2 year budget growth present, the next window to reduce spending is 2017… Anything else gets a filibuster and veto.
Anthony,
“Skeptics of climate change, including Smith, have cited the pause to insist that increased greenhouse gas emissions, mostly from burning fossil fuels, are not heating up the globe.”
I have not seen statistically reliable proof that “mostly from burning fossil fuels” is an accurate characterization. Is it yours or his?
Jim G1
Chances are, most of the ‘new’ CO2 in the atmosphere is from some slight warming in the oceans. The GISS and other ice cores show that CO2 rise lags warming by about 200 to 800 years.
For the scientific minded – do this experiment on your own. Buy two bottles of club soda (CO2 dissolved in H2O). Place one in the fridge, place the other on your kitchen counter (assuming your kitchen counter is warmer than the interior of your fridge).
Crack them both open, vigorously.
Which foams up more, and spills more?
Answer: Cold H20 absorbs more C02 than warm H20. It is quite obvious, that ocean temperatures drive C02, and C02 is only the tail. Before you argue, do the experiment. I have. Physics don’t lie.
“Citing confidentiality concerns and the integrity of the scientific process, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) said it won’t give Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) the research documents he subpoenaed.”
Executive Privilege for Alarmists? A new addendum to the scientific method?
Unfortunately, the ‘pubs have demonstrated the unique ability of screwing-up everything. This will be no exception. They are totally worthless.
“So far” everybody else has gotten away with withholding information from congress during this presidency, why not the NOAA?
Karl and Peterson are Obama’s equivalents of Stalin’s Lysenko.
+1
Although to pick up all the Lysenkoists in Obama’s science brigade, “your going to need a bigger boat.”
Let the hard drive shredding commence.
Guys,
What’s the penelty for ignoring a subpoena from congress? Monetary fine, jail time?
Jail until compliance is the usual court remedy for this sort of thing.
The UVA Mann ‘confidentiality’ precedent does not apply, as this is a federal institution formally under the jurisdiction of Smith’s committee, doing federally sponsored research.
Thanks ristvan,
Sounds like a nasty way to end your career. Intelligent people these two guys may be but unless your name is Hillary, they won’t have the clout to get away with it.
Thanks – I was looking for that info. My response: they must be on drugs or something – they clearly believe that they are responsible to no one and no one has a right to check their work.
But the US Dept of Justice will have to enforce the subpoena which is not likely to happen. Look at DOJ refusing to prosecute IRS employees targeting conservative organizations and individuals. The prosecutions will lead to the White House and Obama will not let that happen.
GTL, there is a twist here. Continued failure to comply leads to a Contempt of Congress conviction under 2USC198. Criminal, each act thereof punishable by a $1000 fine and 12 months in prison. See comment upthread. Been the law since 1938. Smith has a number of apparent additional ‘nuclear’ options. For example, NOAA employees are subject to the general records retention and FOIA reqirements applying to all federal (US) employees relating to their work related matters. For NOAA employees, climate data is clearly work related, so all their emails concerning producing the Karl and underlying papers fall under those general requirements also.
Minor correction. Contempt of Congress is 2USC192, not 198. Just in case anyone wants to read the legal details.
GTL is correct, sigh.
GTL October 28, 2015 at 1:38 pm
But the US Dept of Justice will have to enforce the subpoena which is not likely to happen.
Ah NO. Sergeant at arms for congress. Remember, separation of powers. Bet these two didn’t factor in that.
(Grin, Evil Grin) michael
Impeachment proceedings have started on the person in charge of IRS, Koskinny or something like that.
The newest Attorney General will think twice about balking Congress during Obama’s final year. Or they’ll be next on the impeachment list.
Removed from office without a golden parachute.
Peterson and Karl are small fry comparatively. Congress and their committees have long memories when some nobody(s) thumb their nose at the committees regarding a investigation.
@Craig: A bonus and a promotion.
“What’s the penelty for ignoring a subpoena from congress”
A promotion?
Penalty = Retirement with full benefits- ala Lois Lerner.
With this House and Senate Republican leadership there is no penalty, unless of course, if Obama wants it done for some reason, then these wimps and traitors to their promises before the last two elections, will do whatever Obama wants. They are Democrats in sheep’s clothing.
Since the committee in question has oversight on the funding for this research there could be serious consequences aside from any penalties. The committee could propose stronger sunshine laws, for example, but it could simply cut funding for work of this type. But of course the committee would have to work with the rest of the Congress on this. In the long run, the very long run, NOAA will suffer for its noncompliance.
Unfortunately for NOAA, ‘scientific confidentiality’ is not legal grounds for rejecting a Congressional subpoena. As Lamar Smith has pointed out.
Those emails were already under a separate preserve documents order from his science oversight committee, so pulling a Lois Lerner leads to worse problems for NOAA.
Karl knows his paper relies on Huang’s published SST revision. And they both know they simply recalculated Kennedy’s SST adjustment published 2011–Huang’s 2015 paper explicitly says so. And they both know they only published their adjustment result matching Kennedy–0.1C–but NOT the associated uncertainty. Kennedy’s paper was 0.1C +/- 1.7C!
Finally, Lamar Smith and his staff know this gross uncertainty in the new adjustment erasingmthe pause was obscured, because my detective work with references was commented to the Climate Etc post on Karl, and forwarded to his committee. The NOAA emails likely will have discussed this uncertainty problem, and probably the explicit decision to hide it in the paper. As well as likely the motivation for the paper in the first place.
ClimateGate 4, if Smith can get Court enforcement of the subpoena fast enough.
Tax-payer funded research must be accountable to the oversight from the people’s representative body, i.e. Congress. This is most especially true where very costly public policy actions will be implemented by the executive administration using the research as its scientific basis.
What should also be subject to Congressional Review are the reviewer-referee comments and revision-acceptance recommendations from the Science magazine referee process. The paper’s reviewers can and should remain anonymous, but their comments and would be “enlightening” to see how rigorous a review Science editors subjected the Karl paper to, i.e. was it “pal-review”.
NOAA’s position on this issue is untenable legally. But they know they can get away with it since the DOJ has become a politicized agency as well. The US Attorney General will deal with this like they dealt with the corruption in the IRS and Lois Lerner’s illegal actions that denied US citizen’s their rights, compromised people’s privacy, and used the IRS powers as political weapon.
The next step should be FOIA requests from outsiders like the Heartland Institute and then sue them in federal court when they stonewall the FOIA. This has worked with Hillary Clinton’s email stonewalling by the State Department.
+5 and thanks for showing some of the work they are hiding.
Watch for the key word soon. Contempt!
Here is the chance for them to show the US Congress the quality of their work. What’s the problem?
I’m just a regular civilian, non-scientist type, but I thought that the way you KEPT scientific integrity was specifically by letting other people see all of the information and processes of your scientific work. That is one of the main pillars of the scientific process.
“That is one of the main pillars of the scientific process.”
It is, just not Climate “science”.
Please spell Climate Seance correctly when regular civilian, non-scientists like this drop in lest they be confused about real science.
Anthony, for non US readers, can you give us some context please
For example, is there a legal requirement to comply with this subpoena. Does this refusal to comply happen often? How are they enforced?
Simply put If you work for the government all work e-mails are public records.NOAA’s claim of “confidentiality” is bogus. No reasonable person expect confidentiality when exchanging correspondence with a government employee on a government server. You either know or should know that such communications are public records.
I’ve been reading up and as far as I can see there are a few basic requirements, like e.g. the subpoena has to be penitent to the work of the committee, but then contempt of congress proceedings can take place either in congress or via a court.
There appears to be very few ways to get out of a subpoena – particularly when Congress is dominated by the party issuing the subpoena and it seems that usually people eventually comply.
In a sane country, this should be true. Our political/justice leadership has become insane, certainly are not “reasonable” , and those of us that are still reasonable expect nothing to happen to these liars. LIbEralS – LIES.
Not just government. Any email you send or receive from your employer’s internet access is deemed their property. The position of the accused does not wash. They must produce. That’s why it is called a subpoena.
myNym commented: “…Not just government. Any email you send or receive from your employer’s internet access is deemed their property. …”
Most people don’t understand this. Personal communications are rarely allowed or protected although often accepted out of expedience. Work related telephone, email, and mail are all the property of the government/employer.
myNym is correct, and the reason is; If I was to conduct any unsavory business (bribery, blackmail, threats etc.) while using my employer’s computer/server/email accounts, they would be implicated in my unsavory business when the police come knocking. Usually they’ll hand over everything and cooperate with the police investigation, but in the event that they didn’t, they’d be held accountable for damages done by me when using their equipment.
@Scottish:
Subpoena, from ‘sub’ meaning below, and ‘poena’ the male parts, synonym being ‘by the balls’…
This committee has direct oversight. The can toss these guys in jail. Of course, Obama can parden them, but that might cause even more trouble…
Generally this kind of position by an agency is a no no. They can invoke Executive Privilege but in this case I can’t imagine it would stick. I hope Congress hangs tough.
See my comment above. A Congressional Subpoena is enforced by the Department of Justice, ultimately controlled by the President. It could happen if the Attorney General maintains high ethical standards, she has the authority. Given the outcome of the IRS investigation our Attorney General does not appear ethical, more a political hack of the Administration. Forcing action will require a great deal of external political pressure. Democrats are already crying foul.
The NOAA emails can also be gotten via FOIA. A S&T committee staffer can submit such a request. Rep. Smith has a number of options depending on his political objectives. He has said he plans to use them all.
@ristvan
Thanks ristvan, I did not consider FOIA. It worked in getting at Hilary Clinton’s emails. Hope it does not take as long.
Scottish Sceptic
Yes
yes
as to enforced
Mike the Morlock October 28, 2015 at 4:09 pm
Of course the sergeant at arms can just be sent to collect both them and the data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_at_Arms_of_the_United_States_Senate
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/10/gop-congressman-we-just-filed-a-resolution-directing-the-sergeant-at-arms-to-arrest-lois-lerner-for-contempt/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2007/04/house_arrest.html
I have included example by both camps.
Congress passes laws, the obligation of seeing that they are enforced is delegated to them. A spending bill that includes funds for NOAA is A LAW! NOAA is accountable to Congress and congress is accountable to “US”
Let them cool their heels in a cell until they comply
michael duhancik
i hate quoting myself but…
miky
Miky, Congress passes laws. The Executive branch ( president) is supposed to enforce the laws. The Supreme interprets the laws. So says the US Constitution, as opposed the the Constitutional scholar sitting in the White House.
If these bloggers are correct then the rule of law is abrogated.
There is no separation of powers.
In Australia this would lead to a challenge based on the Constitution.
This would force the Government department to produce the evidence.
It would force the authority issuing the subpoena to act.
Time for popcorn!
The fun move would be for Rep. Smith to answer the refusal with a congressional subpoena. The stakes go up hugely for Karl and Peterson to continue to refuse. The only way out would be for the White House to issue an executive order claiming executive privilege. The basis for such a claim would have to be that President Obama took time off from the golf course to become directly involved in the deliberations concerning the production of the paper. This of course, implies that Obama should have been listed as a coauthor.
On the other hand, they may be banking on the fact that in this administration, nobody has been held accountable for anything. Karl and Peterson may be hoping to pull a “Lois Lerner” or maybe even a “Hillary Clinton”. Hard drives melting down in 3, 2, 1 …
TonyL, he asked when issued a documents retention order. When NOAA stonewalled, he issued a subpoena. This is already refusal to comply with a Congressional investigation subpoena. Quite serious, as now involves contempt of congress.
The order not to comply most likely came from the President (Obama).
FLASH: BILL NYE THE SCIENCE GUY ON THE NAT. GEO CHANNEL SUNDAY NIGHT ON A CLIMATE CHANGE SPECIAL. LET’S FLOOD THE DISCOVERY, NAT. GEO, DIRECTV, COMCAST AND OTHERS, COMPLAINING ABOUT THE BIAS OF THE PROGRAM. CAN SOMEONE FIND OUT WHO THE SPONSORS ARE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LACK OF SCIENTIFIC CREDIBILITY OF NYE.
CB, how about staying on-topic…
To another comment’s speculation that “The order [for NCDC/NCEI’s Karl and Peterson] not to comply most likely came from the President (Obama),” at 7:09 PM on 28 October, Mr. Alberts admonishes:
How is it that a pair of federal employees – Karl and Peterson – subject to the executive branch chain of command could be presumed to act in flagrantly overt defiance of the Congress without sanction (or direction) from higher-up?
Familiar with that homely little sign Harry S Truman used to keep on the Resolute desk about where the buck stops?
Or is that not a “topic” to Mr. Alberts’ taste?
Tucci78, Jeff Alberts’ comment asking “carbon bigfoot” to stay on topic, not J. Philip Peterson.
Woops! Wonder if a Contempt of Congress will be issued.
From Wikipedia: “Contempt of Congress is the act of obstructing the work of the United States Congress or one of its committees. Historically, the bribery of a senator or representative was considered contempt of Congress. In modern times, contempt of Congress has generally applied to the refusal to comply with a subpoena issued by a Congressional committee or subcommittee—usually seeking to compel either testimony or the production of documents.”
Is it possible to treat anything “politically based” – i.e., advanced purely to push a political agenda – “science” in any sense of the word?
I find it bizarre that here, midway through the second decade of the 21st Century, there are people who think their work email and other work documents are their own personal property.
@PaulH
Yeah. Many many years ago I was responsible for the implementation of employment contracts for all our company employees that involved just a few hundred people … but those forms made it extremely clear (and the law was/is clear) that anything produced in a company office, using company equipment, or on company business of any kind was the property of the company and was NOT confidential, including personal diaries.
I just don’t get this stonewalling. I am surprised there aren’t more whistle blowers. Guess we’ll see.
The integrity of a scientific process is and should remain confidential.
Where did we get in 2015? Feels more like 1015.
Curious George:
The integrity of the scientific process is precisely what is at issue in this situation. However, it is quite possible that science’s integrity may not be threatened by the Congressional subpoena so much as strengthened by it.
Curious George,
Do you even know what “integrity” and “confidential” mean? What you basically said is that the honesty or completeness (depending on how you use the word “integrity”) of a scientific process should remain secret. The scientific process only works when it is transparent, not secret, especially when it is paid for with public money. If you don’t understand that, you are a dolt.
Don’t know about being a dolt, but one would think that if a scientist believed he had found a new mechanism to explain the Pause or thought that none was needed, he would be shouting from the roof tops
“look at Me ,You were wrong, look see my evidence”
I still can’t get over the multiple adjustments these people make to temperature sets often with no knowledge of the station’s history. That’s even assuming that thermometer stations and ocean measurements are vaguely representative of what’s happening on a global scale. I am astounded that “scientists” tweak, twerk and torture the data into statistics and then pretend they have any meaing whatsoever.
If the raw data aren’t good enough, then your measurements are the problem. Statistical torturing of said erroneous data cannot “improve” the data, except for political purposes. Might as well go back to reading animal entrails… the scientific rigor is equivalent.
From a pragmatic point of view, these guys will undoubtedly resist exposure until the Parasite convention is over.
Does anyone else have that image in their mind of Laurel and Hardy standing there with the obese pontification to the skinny guilt ridden “Now look! What a fine kettle of fish you got me into”
Refused on standing orders from the climate boss in the WH no doubt.
They might have received a question that could force them to plead the 5th and that in itself would look bad. As in the case of Lois Lerner at IRS, such pleading generates more questions in a wider investigation.
Of course a promise of immunity can be issued, then they must comply.
Of course “pressing” isn’t allowed anymore ….Bummer…
michael
“There is no truth to the claim that the study was politically motivated or conducted to advance an agenda.”
If you have that much confidence in your motives and methods, why not release the documents and emails that could prove you right? What are you trying to cover up?
“If you have that much confidence in your motives and methods, why not release the documents and emails that could prove you right? What are you trying to cover up?”
Invalid response. I may have nothing to hide, but that doesn’t mean I want the government searching my house whenever they want. Again, I’m not advocating the actions of NOAA, I’m pointing out that your response is absurd. Like asking when you stopped beating your wife.
Jeff Alberts commented: “…Invalid response. I may have nothing to hide, but that doesn’t mean I want the government searching my house whenever they want. ”
Bad spin. They are asking to search a government owned email address and government owned data. There should be nothing ‘personal’ there. In fact, they shouldn’t even have to “ask” to do it!
Markl, I wasn’t speaking to the government aspect of it, I was responding to the “if you have nothing to hide…” response. It’s never a valid response, no matter what you think of the accused. Of course they should follow the law.
No, the questions to which this response is made – “If you have that much confidence in your motives and methods, why not release the documents and emails that could prove you right? What are you trying to cover up?” – are emphatically not “absurd” when it’s borne in mind that Karl and Peterson are employees of federal government agencies who had undertaken work for which they were PAID out of the public purse, using material and human resources also funded by the taxpayers.
All products of their work were, ab ovo, the property of the U.S. federal government and subject to examination by the federal legislature exercising the powers delineated in Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. House of Representatives, as the body responsible for funding everything done by NOAA, is duty-bound to scrutinize all operations conducted and all expenditures made by the officers of that agency.
This inescapably involves the investigation and remediation of misfeasance and malfeasance on the part of those officers.
Remember: “Thou shalt not commit adultery on company time or furniture.”
It seems to me this is an assertion that “Science is more important than democracy or accountability”.
They are in effect challenging the authority of Congress and stating that “we as scientists are in charge”.
I would be surprised if that wins them any friends either on the Republican or democrat benches.
Scottish Sceptic: Wait …. I thought Science WAS in charge. Didn’t Eisenhower warn us about that? Oh, let me think about that. If Science WAS in charge, then they would follow the scientific method and provide all the information. I think I just went into a Catch 22 do loop.
I see less and less reason for any government agency other than the Defense Department, the CIA and the IRS to have closed servers. There should be no reason the rest of the government servers are not open for viewing at all times and a rule that using any private communications network for government business is a federal crime.
Dr. Tom Peterson would rather share his secrets with Miriam O’Brien than with the Congress. Let’s hope Miriam O’Brien has sufficient means to fund this “research”, involving an industrial-scale manufacturing of data (aka “adjustments”.)
The very first tranche of emails reviewed from Hillary’s personal email server contained four documents classified as TS/SCI/NOFORN. About as classified as it gets. That’s secrets about secrets. Had you or I done that, we’d still be wearing steel bracelets.
Do you think, really, really think, that they will pay any price at all for this?
And Petraeus only told his girl friend.
It’s time to destroy another email server in another agency. Such is the routine in the new improved open government.
Transparency in government… just as if they’re ghosts!
Re; open government: “The directives I am giving my administration today on how to interpret the FOI act, will do just that”. Obama.
Ironic, Peterson’s political playtime picture only shows the tip of an iceberg.
Wait, you haven’t heard of “scientific privelege”?
Neither have I.
Laugh every time reread that, bruce.
Reminds me of the luxury rides cruising in St. Louis with “CLERGY” signs in their windshields.
I no longer believe in the pause, it seems more like a reversal to me now.
Rep Smith should introduce a bill that defunds appropriate NOAA programs ASAP.
s/appropriate/all/
There, fixed that for you.
Right, who needs weather information and forecasts.
One does NOT conduct science in an “objective” manner, one does it in a SCIENTIFIC manner.
MSM are characterizing it as a witch hunt by “GOP Denialists” and many average people are falling for it hook, line and sinker. There needs to be better PR from the skeptic side. Current PR is a failure.
PR’s tough, when the other side owns all the presses.
We (aka Antho-knee) own this one.
Not as far I as can see. The only ones falling for that nonsense are already dyed in the wool true believers.
There is little hope of anything coming of this since the President can protect these people. Can congress do anything about that? ONLY if they are willing to impeach and then convict: and the congress critters are not so willing. Heck, the president can invade a foreign country at will and the congress will do nothing about it.
Sadly, the skeptical side has the physics that shows this is all BS, but this is not a scientific debate it is a political war. The modern “liberals” are winning. I expect some evil to come out of Paris.
~ Mark
I’m with you on this Mark
Mark – well said.
“I expect some evil to come out of Paris.”
“Prof. Dr H. Stephen Schneider, lead author in Working Group II of the IPCC (said in 1989): ‘For these reasons we have to announce terrifying scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements with no mention of any doubts whatever which we might have. In order to attract attention, we need dramatic statements leaving no doubt about what is said. Every one of us researchers must decide how far he would want to be honest rather than effective.”
In an interview published in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung on 14 November 2010, Ottmar Edenhofer, co-chair of IPCC Working Group III, said “The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War…. one must say clearly that de facto we redistribute the world’s wealth by climate policy…. One has to rid oneself of the illusion that international climate politics have anything to do with environmental concerns.”
United Nations Framework convention on climate change:
“Climate finance refers to local, national or transnational financing, which may be drawn from public, private and alternative sources of financing. Climate finance is critical to addressing climate change because large-scale investments are required to significantly reduce emissions, notably in sectors that emit large quantities of greenhouse gases. Climate finance is equally important for adaptation, for which significant financial resources will be similarly required to allow countries to adapt to the adverse effects and reduce the impacts of climate change.”
How on earth is United Nations expecting to avoid claims from nations that damages by bad weather, natural variation, natural climate cycles or lasting dire conditions are caused by climate change? How on earth can United Nations avoid increased energy poverty?
United Nations is far out of line with its charter. United nations were supposed to:
– To maintain international peace and security…
– To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples …
– To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character,
– To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.
United Nations has itself become a great international problem of an economic and cultural character.
The US needs to defund the UN even if this requires our withdrawal from the organization. Let the progs finance it.
“… Every one of us researchers must decide how far he would want to be honest rather than effective.”
If you’re going to quote that paragraph, quote it all, or show the ellipsis.
“…Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.“ (Emphasis added.)
Thanks for correcting this. I took this quote from a comment at a blog without checking.
I suspect they will force congresses hand as they will be martyrs for the cause. You know what the best thing about what I do is. You cant run from a forecast. Think about that. The weather will always give you the answer. These guys think they have free reign to reconstruct the past according to what they believe, but they never are held accountable, no one has ever stood up to them and said you might be wrong. If forecasting, no such luxury. The crucible of private sector forecast is be right or perish. Quite a difference from publish or perish. Of course the danger is over-reach and lumping all research into one pile. We must be vigilant against that
JB:
“You cant run from a forecast.”
http://wp.me/p4JijN-78
Watch Joe run.
How about we forecast the mudslides that derail trains or wash out highways first, then work on the next 100 years of such events.
It would give the engineers a heads up.
I am relatively new to WUWT blogs, and I guess I have to be impressed that Anthony tolerates comments from all sectors of the community so as to be seen to “not exclude people” who may have alternative views. However, I am guessing people already know that you are posting absolute unsubstantiated drivel. (I looked at that link and list of claims about what is misunderstood about convection/tornadoes and all of these have been well answered and tested and are used successfully in forecasting now.) It is mind blowing that you have these thoughts and I can only assume you have some sort of pathological hatred of Meteorologists for some reason. Were you rejected from Met school or by the NWS or something?
Watch Joe learn from the results too. At least he doesn’t have a zero batting average so far like the bigshots in climate science.
I’m just a chemist but that site seemed a little bizarre.
“turns out its not, moist air is heavier, not lighter than dry air”
“12) They can’t explain why severe weather, especially tornadoes, involves “clash of dry winds with moist winds.” (Why does it matter than one body of air must be dry and the other must be moist to cause tornadoes? [why are there no tornadoes when both are dry or both are moist?] Might this be a clue to something yet undiscovered?)”
Basic chemistry suggests that with the same amount of gas molecules (n) that the more humid air would be less dense as the water molecules have about 2/3 of the molar mass of N2.
Any condensation would reduce the density of the parcel of air (amount of gas drops and it takes time to be squeezed by in-rushing air) plus a lot of heat from the condensation keeping the pressure up gives you a lot of up lift. Someone with the right back ground could set you straight better than myself, but my two cents worth would be that cooling dry air is more likely to be denser than cooling moist air and a big difference means quite a lot of vertical movement before the air mixes.
I’d run from that web site too. https://solvingtornadoesdotcom.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/government-tornado-researchers-what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about-what-they-dont-know/ – looks like only one fool replied to that post, and that’s me.
I don’t understand the JB connection there, I don’t see any. Why did you post that link?
Oh, it may be your site. Why don’t say so in https://solvingtornadoesdotcom.wordpress.com/about/ ?
Robert B:
Basic chemistry suggests that with the same amount of gas molecules (n) that the more humid air would be less dense as the water molecules have about 2/3 of the molar mass of N2.
JM:
Well, I’m a little slow, so thank you for keeping it basic.
Robert B:
Any condensation would reduce the density of the parcel of air (amount of gas drops and it takes time to be squeezed by in-rushing air)
JM:
I have a couple of questions for you:
1) In your chemistry classes did they ever teach you that the boiling point of H2O is 100 C at 1 ATM of pressure?
2) Have you heard of ideal gas laws and Avogadro’s law?
3) Did you know that H2O is not an ideal gas at temperatures below its boiling point?
Robert B:
plus a lot of heat from the condensation keeping the pressure up gives you a lot of up lift.
JM:
Hmm. I wonder why the people that use hot air balloons haven’t figured this out and, for some odd reason, don’t bring humidifiers with them on their cross country trips? Hmm.
Robert B:
Someone with the right back ground could set you straight better than myself,
JM:
I’ve been looking for this person for 20 years now. This person seems to be more elusive than DB Cooper. But at least they have a sketch of DB Cooper. And a name. I can’t tell you how many meteorologists have told me of this person. Like yourself, however, they failed to get a name.
But I know this person must be out there somewhere. After all, how could thousands of meteorologists possibly be wrong?
Robert B:
but my two cents worth would be that cooling dry air is more likely to be denser than cooling moist air and a big difference means quite a lot of vertical movement before the air mixes.
JM:
Well, I’m a scientist. So my standards are somewhat different. Are you a meteorologist?
Oh, it may be your site. Why don’t say so in https://solvingtornadoesdotcom.wordpress.com/about/ ?
It matters? Why?
If you don’t think that fact matters, you don’t understand human nature.
“1) In your chemistry classes did they ever teach you that the boiling point of H2O is 100 C at 1 ATM of pressure?”
So there can’t be water vapour below 100°C?
“2) Have you heard of ideal gas laws and Avogadro’s law?”
P∝T as well as n so what point are you trying to make?
“3) Did you know that H2O is not an ideal gas at temperatures below its boiling point?”
Its not above either and neither is N2. Did you have a point?
“Well, I’m a scientist. So my standards are somewhat different. Are you a meteorologist?”
A chemist is a scientist. What have you been sniffing?
Robert B November 2, 2015 at 2:09 am
JM:
“1) In your chemistry classes did they ever teach you that the boiling point of H2O is 100 C at 1 ATM of pressure?”
RB:
So there can’t be water vapour below 100°C?
JM:
Vapor is not a gas. It is a liquid. It consists of miniature droplets suspended in air. But not gaseous H2O. Our atmosphere is too cool for steam.
RB:
P∝T as well as n so what point are you trying to make?
JM:
Your conclusions (above) that you say are based on “basic chemistry,” are mistaken–imaginary.
James McGinn:
You continue to waste space in threads by posting nonsense.
For example, you write this twaddle
Bollocks!
Just so you know in future
The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
Richard
Joe,
The pile is getting larger all the time and some of us old timers from engineering backgrounds are becoming less receptive to a great deal of research “findings”. One of my favorites is inventing things like dark matter when observed gravitational effects don’t fit GR and scientists say they can see the dark matter when what they are seeing is effects which contradict the theory. You can add inflation and dark energy to that pile. Often spoken of as facts when they are simply theoretical constructs to make the numbers work. They may even be correct but they are theories, not facts. A great deal of research is skating on some pretty thin ice these days. But then I never did stop eating fatty foods either and feel great about the fact that all of that medical research has now been debunked! And now I hear that hot dogs are going to kill me!
The big bang theory intrigues me. It assumes an input of energy of inconceivable magnitude from a magic source. Maybe the dark matter studies and the accelerating expansion of the universe will give rise to another, more rational, approach.
JimB
http://io9.com/new-survey-supports-theory-of-infinite-universe-1503361325
Studies of baryonic acoustic oscillations indicate that the universe may well be infinite in size and if so probably infinite in time which would make whatever happened 13.7 billion years ago a local event. My point was that climastrology Is contaminating research in many fields and or research is, itself, turning sour across many fields simultaneously and adding to the potential pile Joe does not want all research thrown upon. Consensus science and funding play major roles in this situation.
They no longer issue forecasts. They issue PROJECTIONS.
I appreciate your pushing back on these mendacious people Joe B.
@joe – who was sacked for the dud predictions about Patricia. We had our own experiences with Category 5 cyclones tearing down the odd tree and gutter but nobody was dragged into the principals office for those.
The presence of so much ‘smoke and mirrors in action, is as good an indication as you can get of the lack of a presence of good evidence to support their claims .
Still to be fair you need to remember this is climate ‘science’ were even outright lying and scientific fraud are consider not just acceptable but honoured.
The fact the area has standards so low that a snake could not crawl under-them, does not change the fact that these authors have met the standards required for the area they work in. And can therefore join a long list of others whose ‘research’ carried out in a similar manner, has come to symbolise climate ‘science’
I am not an American, but if I were I would be asking Rep. Lamar Smith to take further steps to enforce the subpoena against the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). An open and democratic society, as the great USA is, cannot allow publicly funded bodies such as the NOAA to indulge in maverick and illegal denial of due process. So, not only is there the concern for the “cooking” of data, there is also the fundamental attack on US democracy – neither can be allowed.
Naturally they will try F.U.D, they are bureaucrats.
As good activists of the CAGW meme they expect to get the same pass that their brethren did.
Being very small fish on the scale of USA bureaucracy I think they are mistaken and about to find out.
Of course if the adjustments were justifiable and the emails back and forth not evidence of collusion, then I am sure they will rush to smother the senate committee with their great science.
NOAA’s Science says…..”Nothing to see here.. Move along”.
Sad how corrupt the whole government by fool and bandit has become.
I miss Gilbert & Sullivan.. this material is so rich.
Course the committees response is simple.. no savvy no funds.
They would surely not have refused congres without being sure of guaranteed power to handle the resulting supeona.
Overconfidence often comes just before reality slaps one into the mud.