Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Anthony recently highlighted a new study which purports to find that the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) is synchronized to the fluctuations in solar activity. The study is entitled “Solar forcing synchronizes decadal North Atlantic climate variability”. The “North Atlantic Oscillation” (NAO) refers to the phenomenon that the temperatures (and hence the air pressures) of the northern and southern regions of the North Atlantic oscillate back and forth in opposition to each other, with first the northern part and then the southern part being warmer (lower pressure) and then cooler (higher pressure) than average. The relative swings are measured by an index called the North Atlantic Oscillation Index (NAOI). The authors’ contention is that the sun acts to synchronize the timing of these swings to the timing of the solar fluctuations.
Their money graph is their Figure 2:
Figure 1. Figure 2a from the study, showing the purported correspondence between solar variations (gray shaded areas at bottom) and the North Atlantic Oscillation Index (NAOI). Original Caption: (a) Time series of 9–13-year band-pass filtered NAO index for the NO_SOL [no solar input] (solid thin) and SOL [solar input] (solid thick) experiments, and the F10.7 cm solar radio flux (dashed black). Red and blue dots define the indices used for NAO-based composite differences at lag 0 (see the Methods section). For each solar cycle, maximum are marked by vertical solid lines.
From their figure, it is immediately apparent that they are NOT looking at the real world. They are not talking about the Earth. They are not discussing the actual North Atlantic Oscillation Index nor the actual f10.7 index. Instead, their figures are for ModelEarth exclusively. As the authors state but do not over-emphasize, neither the inputs (“F10.7”) to the computer model nor the outputs of the computer model (“Filtered NAOI”) are real—they are figments of either the modelers’ or the model’s imaginations, understandings, and misapprehensions …
The confusion is exacerbated by the all-too-frequent computer modelers’ misuse of the names of real observations (e.g. “NAOI”) to refer to what is not the NAOI at all, but is only the output of a climate model. Be clear that I am not accusing anyone of deception. I am saying that the usual terminology style of the modelers makes little distinction between real and modeled elements, with both often being called by the same name, and this mis-labeling does not further communication.
This brings me to my first objection to this study, which is not to the use of climate models per se. Such models have some uses. The problem is more subtle than that. The difficulty is that the outputs of climate models, including the model used in this study, are known to be linear or semi-linear transformations of the inputs to those climate models. See e.g. Kiehls seminal work, Twentieth century climate model response and sensitivity as well as my posts here and here.
As a result, we should not be surprised that if we include solar forcings as inputs to a climate model, we will find various echoes of the solar forcing in the model results … but anyone who thinks that these cyclical results necessarily mean something about the real world is sadly mistaken. All that such a result means is that climate models, despite their apparent complexity, function as semi-linear transformation machines that mechanically grind the input up and turn it into output, and that if you have cyclical input, you’ll be quite likely to get cyclical output … but only in ModelEarth. The real Earth is nowhere near that linear or that simple.
My second objection to their study is, why on earth would you use a climate model with made-up “solar forcing” to obtain modeled “Filtered NAOI” results when we have perfectly good observational data for both the solar variations and the NAO Index??? Why not start by analyzing the real Earth before moving on to ModelEarth? The Hurrell principal component NAOI observational dataset since 1899 is shown in Figure 2a. I’ve used the principal component NAO Index rather than the station index because the PC index is used by the authors of the study.
Figure 2a. Hurrell principal component based North Atlantic Oscillation Index. Red line shows the same data with a 9-13-year bandpass filter applied. DATA SOURCE
Here you can see the importance of using a longer record. Their results shown in Figure 1 above start in 1960, a time of relative strength in the 9-13-year band (red line above). But for the sixty years before that, there was little strength in the same 9-13-year band. This kind of appearance and disappearance of apparent cycles, which is quite common in climate datasets, indicates that they do not represent a real persisting underlying cycle.
Which brings me to my next objection. This is that comparing a variable 11-year solar cycle to a 9-13-year bandpass filtered NAOI dataset seemed to me like it would frequently look like it was significant when it wasn’t significant at all. In other words, from looking at the data I thought that similar 9-13-year bandpassed red noise would show much the same type of pattern in the 9-13-year band.
To test this, I used simple “ARMA” red noise. ARMA stands for “Auto-Regressive, Moving Average”. I first calculated the lag-1 AR and MA components of the DJF NAOI data. These turn out to be AR ≈ 0.4, and MA ≈ – 0.2. This combination of a positive AR value and a negative MA value is quite common in climate datasets.
Then I generated random ARMA “pseudo-data” of the same length as the DJF NAOI data (116 years), and applied the 9-13-year bandpass filter to each pseudo-dataset. Figure 2b shows four typical random red-noise pseudo-data results:
Figure 2b. As in Figure 2a, but using ARMA red-noise random pseudo-data. Heavy red/black lines show the result of applying the 9-13-year bandpass filter to the pseudo-data.
As I suspected, red noise datasets of the same ARMA structure as the DJF NAOI data generally show a strong signal in the 9-13-year range. This signal typically varies in strength across the length of the pseudo-datasets. However, given that these are random red-noise datasets, it is obvious that such strong signals in the 9-13-year range are meaningless.
So the signal seen in the actual DJF NAOI data is by no means unusual … and in truth, well … I fear to admit that I’ve snuck the actual DJF NAOI in as the lower left panel in Figure 2b … bad, bad dog. But comparing that with the upper left panel fo the same Figure illustrates my point quite clearly. Random red-noise data contains what appears to be a signal in the 9-13-year range … but it’s most likely nothing but an artifact, because it is indistinguishable from the red-noise results.
My next objection to the study is that they have used the “f10.7″ solar index as a measure of the sun’s activity. This is the strength of the solar radio flux at the 10.7 cm wavelength, and it is a perfectly valid observational measure to use. However, in both phase and amplitude, the f10.7 index runs right in lock-step with the sunspot numbers. Here’s NASA’s view of a half-century of both datasets:
Figure 3. Monthly sunspot numbers (upper panel) and monthly f10.7 cm radio wave flux index (lower panel). SOURCE
As you can see, using one or the other makes no practical difference at the level of analysis done by the authors. The difficulty is that the f10.7 data is short, whereas we have good sunspot data much further back in time than we have f10.7 data … so why not use the sunspot data?
My next objection to the study is that it seems the authors haven’t heard of Bonferroni and his correction. If you flip a group of 8 coins once and they come up all heads, that’s very unusual. But if you throw the same group of 8 coins a hundred times, somewhere in there you’ll likely come up with eight heads.
In other words, how unusual something is depends on how many places you’ve looked for it. If you look long enough for even the rarest relationship, you’ll likely find it … but that does not mean that the find is statistically significant.
In this case, the problem is that they are only using the winter-time (DJF) value of the NAOI. To get to that point, however, they must have tried the annual NAOI, as well as the other seasons, and found them wanting. If the other NAOI results were statistically significant and thus interesting, they would have reported them … but they didn’t. This means that they’ve looked in five places to get their results—the annual data as well the four seasons individually. And this in turn means that to claim significance for their find, they need to show somethings which is more rare than if they had just looked in one place.
The “Bonferroni correction” is a rough-and-ready way to calculate the effect of looking in more places or conducting more trials. The correction says that whatever p-value you consider significant, say 0.05, you need to divide that p-value by the number of trials to give the equivalent p-value needed for true significance. So if you have 5 trials, or five places you’ve looked, or five flips of 8 coins, at that point to claim statistical significance you need to find something significant at the 0.05 / 5 level, which is a p-value of less than 0.01 … and in climate, that’s a hard ask.
So those are my objections to the way they’ve gone about trying to answer the question.
Let me move on from that to how I’d analyze the data. Here’s how I’d go about answering the same question, which was, is there a solar component to the DJF North Atlantic Oscillation?
We can investigate this in a few ways. One is by the use of “cross-correlation”. This looks at the correlation of the two datasets (solar fluctuations and NAO Index) at a variety of lags.
Figure 4. Cross-correlation, NAO index and sunspots. NAO index data source as above. Sunspot data source.
As you can see, the maximum short-lag positive correlation is with the NAO data lagging the sunspots by about 2-3 years. But the fact that the absolute correlation is largest with the NAO data leading the sunspots (negative values of lag) by two years is a huge red flag, because it is not possible that the NAO is influencing the sun. This indicates we’re not looking at a real causal relationship. Another problem is the small correlation values. The r^2 of the two-year-lagged data is only 0.03, and the p-value is 0.07 (not significant). And this is without accounting for the cyclical nature of the sunspot data, which will show alternating positive and negative correlations of the type shown above even with random “red-noise” data. Taken in combination, these indicate that there is very little relationship of any kind between the two datasets, causal or otherwise.
Next, we can search for any relationship between the solar cycle and the DJF NAOI using Fourier analysis. To begin with, here is the periodogram of the annual sunspot data. As is my habit, I first calculate the periodogram of the full dataset. Then I divide the dataset in two, and calculate the periodograms of the two halves individually. This lets me see if the cycles are present in both halves of the data, to help establish if they are real or are only transient fluctuations. Here is that result.
Figure 5. Periodograms of the full sunspot dataset (black), and of the first and second halves of the data.
As you can see, the three periodograms are quite similar, showing that we are looking at a real, persistent (albeit variable) cycle in the sunspot data. This is true even for the ~ 5-year cycle, as it shows up in all three analyses.
However, the situation is very different with the DJF NAOI data.
Figure 6. Periodograms of the full North Atlantic Oscillation Index data, and of the first and second halves of the data.
Unlike the sunspot data, the three NAOI periodograms are all very different. There are no cycles common to all three. We can also see the lack of strength in the 9-13-year region in the first half compared with the second half. All of this is another clear indication that there is no strong persistent cycle in the NAOI data in the 9-13-year range, whether of solar or any other origin. In other words, the DJF NAOI is NOT synchronized to the solar cycle as the authors claim.
Finally, we can investigate their claim that the variations in solar input are driving the DJF NAOI into synchronicity by looking at what is called “Granger causality”. An occurrence “A” is said to “Granger-cause” occurrence “B” if we can predict B better by using the history of both A and B than we can predict B by using just the history of B alone. Here is the Granger test for the sunspots and the DJF NAOI:
> grangertest(Sunspots,DJFNAOI) Granger causality test Model 1: DJFNAOI ~ Lags(DJFNAOI, 1:1) + Lags(Sunspots, 1:1) Model 2: DJFNAOI ~ Lags(DJFNAOI, 1:1) Res.Df Df F Pr(>F) 1 112 2 113 -1 0.8749 0.3516
The Granger causality test looks at two models. One model (Model 2) tries to predict the DJF NAOI by looking just at the previous year’s DJF NAOI. The other model (Model 1) includes the previous year’s sunspot information as an additional independent variable, to see if the sunspot information helps to predict the DJF NAOI.
The result of the Granger test (p-value of 0.35) does not allow us to reject the null hypothesis, which is that there is no causal relationship between sunspots and the NAO Index. It shows that adding solar fluctuation data does not improve the predictability of the NAOI. And the same is true if we include more years of historical solar data as independent variables, e.g.:
> grangertest(Sunspots,DJFNAOI,order = 2) Granger causality test Model 1: DJFNAOI ~ Lags(DJFNAOI, 1:2) + Lags(Sunspots, 1:2) Model 2: DJFNAOI ~ Lags(DJFNAOI, 1:2) Res.Df Df F Pr(>F) 1 109 2 111 -2 0.4319 0.6504
This is even worse, with a p-value of 0.65. The solar fluctuation data simply doesn’t help in predicting the future NAOI, so again we cannot reject the null hypothesis that there is no causal relationship between solar fluctuations and the North Atlantic Oscillation.
CONCLUSIONS
• If you use a cyclical forcing as input to a climate model, do not be surprised if you find evidence of that cycle in the model’s output … it is to be expected, but it doesn’t mean anything about the real world.
• The cross-correlation of a century’s worth of data shows that relationship between the sunspots and the DJF NAOI is not statistically significant at any lag, and it does not indicate any causal relationship between solar fluctuations and the North Atlantic Oscillation
• The periodogram of the NAOI does not reveal any consistent cycles, whether from solar fluctuations or any other source.
• The Granger causality test does not allow us to reject the null hypothesis that there is no causal relationship between solar fluctuations and the North Atlantic Oscillation.
• Red-noise pseudodata shows much the same strong signal in the 9-13-year range as is shown by the DJF NAOI data.
And finally … does all of this show that there is no causal relationship between solar fluctuations and the DJF NAO?
Nope. You can never do that. You can’t demonstrate that something doesn’t exist.
However, it does mean that if such a causal relationship exists, it is likely to be extremely weak.
Regards to all,
w.
My Customary Request: If you disagree with someone, please quote the exact words that you object to. This lets us all understand the exact nature of your objections.
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Well you’re looking in the right way Willis but I think your lack of experience in periodic analysis is leading to jump to incorrect conclusions.
What your fig 6 shows is a strong 9y peak in the latter half and two smaller peaks at 8 and 10y in the full dataset. It is very possible that this is the same 9y periodicity being split into two peaks by it being modulated by another climate effect.
To find the actual periods indicated, you need to work in frequency rather than period, and it’s half the sum and half the difference. Converting back to periods that gives 9y modulated by 80y. Due to the very crude resolution of you plot the latter period has a large error margin but it’s interesting. This is quite likely the famous “circa 60y” periodicity.
I don’t like this ‘winter only’ idea at all. I think this should be detectable in the monthly data and that would give sufficient frequency resolution to be more accurate about the long term modulation.
I think your analysis of the actual data shows there is more likely a lunar driver in NAO than a solar one.
Much of the false attribution to solar cycles is due to not recognising the lunar contribution and confounding it with solar when they work in unison and ignoring the times when they oppose each other and the solar thing does not work.
Interesting hypothesis. Got some graphs data and source code to show this?
Peter
Hi Peter,
discussed here a few years ago.
https://climategrog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/61/
Also BEST team published a paper on NH land surface temps showing 9.1+/-0.1 ( IIRC ) periodicity. Scafetta also reports similar frequency and demonstrates from JPL ephemeris that it is lunar.
IMO it is failure to resolve a mix of 8.85y lunar apsides and 18.3y/2 , the eclipse cycle that is indicates repetitions in earth-moon-sun geometries.
Mike,
I have also found a 9.4 +0.4/-0.3 years variation in the peak mean latitude anomaly of the Summer sub-tropical High pressure ridge over eastern Australia. I propose that the 9.4 year signal is compatible with a 9.1 year lunar tidal signal made up from a mixture of a 9.30 year Draconic + 8.85 year Anomalistic lunar tidal signal. I also propose a simple “resonance” model that assumes that if lunar tides play a role in influencing the mean latitude anomaly, it is most likely one where the tidal forces act in “resonance” with the changes caused by the far more dominant solar-driven seasonal cycles. With this type of model, it is not so much in what years do the lunar tides reach their maximum strength, but whether or not there are peaks in the strength of the lunar tides that re-occur at the same time within the annual seasonal cycle.
Wilson, I.R.G., Lunar Tides and the Long-Term Variation of the Peak Latitude Anomaly of the Summer Sub-Tropical High Pressure Ridge over Eastern Australia, The Open Atmospheric Science Journal, 2012, 6, 49-60. http://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOASCJ-6-49
ABSTRACT:
This study looks for evidence of a correlation between long-term changes in the lunar tidal forces and the interannual to decadal variability of the peak latitude anomaly of the summer (DJF) subtropical high pressure ridge over Eastern Australia (LSA) between 1860 and 2010. A simple “resonance” model is proposed that assumes that if lunar tides play a role in influencing LSA, it is most likely one where the tidal forces act in “resonance” with the changes caused by the far more dominant solar-driven seasonal cycles. With this type of model, it is not so much in what years do the lunar tides reach their maximum strength, but whether or not there are peaks in the strength of the lunar tides that re-occur at the same time within the annual seasonal cycle. The “resonance” model predicts that if the seasonal peak lunar tides have a measurable effect upon LSA then there should be significant oscillatory signals in LSA that vary in-phase with the 9.31 year draconic spring tides, the 8.85 year perigean spring tides, and the 3.80 year peak spring tides. This study identifies significant peaks in the spectrum of LSA at 9.4 (+0.4/-0.3) and 3.78 (± 0.06) tropical years. In addition, it shows that the 9.4 year signal is in-phase with the draconic spring tidal cycle, while the phase of the 3.8 year signal is retarded by one year compared to the 3.8 year peak spring tidal cycle.
If I get time, I’ll have a look at the full monthly dataset.
https://climatedataguide.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/nao_pc_monthly.txt
Mike,
I think that Greg Goodman makes the same point here in his 2013 conclusions [cited by you at:
[https://climategrog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/61/]. Greg was aware of my earlier work in 2012, where I effectively came to the same general conclusion.
In his 2013 conclusions Greg said:
“What is shown here is a much more significant, global effect. The presence of this strong 9 year cycle will confound attempts to detect the solar signal unless it is recognised. When the two are in phase (working together) the lunar effect will give an exaggerated impression of the scale of the solar signal and when they are out of phase the direct relationship between SSN and temperatures breaks down, leading many to conclude that any such linkage is erroneous or a matter of wishful thinking by less objective observers.
Such long term tidal or inertial effects can shift massive amounts of water and hence energy in and out of the tropics and polar regions. Complex interactions of these cycles with others, such as the variations in solar influence, create external inputs to the climate system, with periods of decadal and centennial length. It is essential to recognise and quantify these effects rather than making naive and unwarranted assumptions that any long term changes in climate are due to one simplistic cause such as the effects of trace gas like CO2.”
Mike: What your fig 6 shows is a strong 9y peak in the latter half and two smaller peaks at 8 and 10y in the full dataset. It is very possible that this is the same 9y periodicity being split into two peaks by it being modulated by another climate effect.
Maybe, but the burden of proof is on the claimant in science. How could you demonstrate, given that these data have been selected and that many models have already been tried, that you are not merely building on a non-reproducing adventitious pattern in a graph? To me, the answer is Only by clearly modeling the behavior over the next few decades, and then showing as the data accumulate that the model has been accurate.
Notice also that, on this hypothesis, the data have been recorded over at most 1 full period of the oscillation of the pair of processes. Unless the period has been clearly hypothesized in advance of studying the data, it is unlikely that any of the statistical analyses produce reliable results.
I’ll end this note as I began: Maybe.
The actual planetary-wide lunar signal is clearly visible in the historical data:
Ian R. G. Wilson, Nikolay S. Sidorenkov
Long-Term Lunar Atmospheric Tides in the Southern Hemisphere
The Open Atmospheric Science Journal, 2013, 7: 51-76
http://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOASCJ-7-51
You might also want to look at the latest work by Sidorenkov, Bizouard and Zotov:
http://syrte.obspm.fr/jsr/journees2014/pdf/
Sidorenkov N.: The Chandler wobble of the poles and its amplitude modulation
and
Bizouard C., Zotov L., Sidorenkov N.: Lunar influence on equatorial atmospheric angular momentum
Mike September 19, 2015 at 1:00 am
Piss off, and come back when you are not starting out by making ad hominems my experience. Starting out by insulting the person you are discussing things with is counterproductive, foolish, and very revealing about how strong you think your case is. A man only throws mud when he is out of scientific ammunition …
And while you are at it, your claim about periodograms is simply wrong. See my explanation and graphs above.
w.
Look bud, if you spoke to my face like that you’d have a fight on your hands and you’d probably have more manners and sense anyway.
Doing so from the safety of your keyboard is pathetic and cowardly.
Neither do I think it is the kind of conduct expected of users of this site.
Mike September 19, 2015 at 5:18 pm
You walked in and started off your post by disparaging my level of experience. Yes, you are right, that is both pathetic and cowardly. So I slapped your face.
Now you want to whine because I slapped your face … don’t like getting your face slapped?
Then don’t walk in and open up by insulting me.
And your claim about periodograms is still wrong.
w.
Lacking experience is not something to be ashamed of or perceive as an insult and it was not intended to be one. That is in your own head.
Your vulgar, over the top reaction reveals you are hyper-sensitive to that sort of criticism which reveals your insecurity.
Despite having made it your pass time to rip into authors of published papers pointing out their ignorance and mistakes, often in the most unsubtle and impolite ways ( recent Shaviv incident for example ) , you are unable to take even the most well-mannered criticism yourself.
You did not “slap my face”, mouthing off from the safety of your keyboard does not impress anyone. You just showed everyone what a jerk you can be, just in case they have not noticed your track record.
Rather than admit you over-reacted, you make a disingenuous attempt to justify yourself. Very impressive.
Mike September 20, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Mike, you claim that saying:
is just “well-mannered criticism” and not an insult of any kind … really?
Mike, I think your lack of experience in social situations is leading you to jump immediately to insulting people without even realizing you’re doing it …
Now … did you perceive that as an insult? Of course you did. Nobody likes to be told they lack experience.
And because you made that insult the very first sentence of your comment, it was clear that you were here to harass rather than to discuss.
Which is why I slapped your face. I won’t put up with that. You want to talk to me about climate science, we’ll talk as equals, regardless of our experience.
If you’re done being all hurt and want to return to the science, let me know. I’m glad to discuss whatever your vast experience has revealed to you that is denied to us less-experienced mortals.
w.
Mike, one more point. You mentioned the “Shaviv incident”.
I had wrongly said that Nir Shaviv and his co-authors were deceptive. This was incorrect, impromer, unwarranted, unfounded, and over the top. When I realized what I had done, I apologized sincerely to Dr. Shaviv and his co-authors for what I had said. And I admit whenever asked that I was wrong.
Now … what more would you have me do, Mike? Seriously, what more can I do when I’ve gone over the line and caused some injury? All I know to do is to acknowledge my mistake, apologize to those I’ve hurt, learn from my errors, and move on. So that’s what I did.
Next, compare and contrast my actions in the “Shaviv incident” to your actions here …
w.
Just has a quick look at full NAO monthly from the same ‘PC’ EOF analysis data. ie no seasonal selectivity.
Long period is close to 100y, nothing around 60y.
There is a notable peak at 18.2y , 9.4y and 5.8y , also a lesser peak at 11.88y ( don’t have +/- on those figures )
So prima facea evidence of lunar + solar influences mixed together. Like I said above, unless we recognise the lunar signal it will confound all efforts to detect a possible solar signal and lead to either false attribution or false negation.
I should emphasise that the long periodicity is very unreliable due to the length of the data. There is significant change on that time-scale but the period should not be taken seriously. It cannot be reliably estimated by Fourrier type techniques. Neither is there any reason to regard it as periodic change in the sense that it is repetitive. It is simple a description of the change in the data: don’t extrapolate !!
In the full data I don’t see the kind of split peak around 8 and 10 that W found in the DJF subset. There may be a pattern in winter data that is not present all year round.
I should emphasize that, since you know the 100 year cycle is “very unreliable”, that you citing and pointing to it is evidence that you are willing to push ideas with no foundation …
w.
You are being typically dismissive without even thinking about what I wrote.
Let me try again:
If the data goes up a bit and down again in 80 there will be an 80 cmpt in the FA. That is part of the description of that limited segment of data. That does not mean that it is cyclic in the sense that it did the same thing prior to the data or will continue to do it in the future.
So I’m not “push ideas with no foundation ” I am explicitly pointing out that this should not be taken to indicate anything more and added: don’t extrapolate !!
If you took time to read before firing off you would not look so foolish.
In the DJF series I find a peak at 86y which is close to the modulation of circa 80y indicated by the strong peaks around 8 and 10y. Since it has been reduced to annual data by the seasonal snipping process there is little resolution in the spectrum.
This may well be a result of the windowing function applied during the analysis. The data is 115y and gets scaled down to zero or ‘tapered’ at each. This is effectively modulating the data !
As you said above, the long cycles like your claimed 86 year cycle are not reliable in the slightest. So your continued pushing of those cycles merely reveals that your agenda is more important to you than your science …
You need at least three, and preferably four, full cycles to say anything about what is going on, and often that is not long enough. For example, look at the differences in the cycles in the first and second halves of the data, each of which are 58 years in length. A strong 9 year cycle shows up in one … but not in the other, and 56 years is about 6 full cycles of nine-year data.
So you blathering on about 86 year cycles and 80 year cycles and such is totally meaningless.
w.
There is a very clear peak at 22y in the DJF data. The authors may have masked out the real solar signal by their preconceived ideas that it should been seen at 11y.
Mike, if you are indeed finding significant correlation with either the 22 year solar magnetic cycle or the interplay of the 11 year solar sunspot and the lunar cycle, a full blog post would be much appreciated.
Willis’es various searches for a correlation between the solar cycles and earth’s weather always coming up negative is always surprising to me. I would love to see a correlation that actually stands up upon serious analysis.
I am not sure why you find that surprising? The strongest signal we get from the Sun by far is the minimum to maximum difference in w/m2. No other parameter of the Sun comes close to that metric. Those who purport to say there is one always, ALWAYS, add a nefarious amplification process not clearly articulated (even CO2 needs an amplification device). As to the Solar sourced 0.1% change in w/m2, Earth’s intrinsic factors are capable of much greater effects on solar irradiance at any stage of a solar cycle before it strikes the ground or ocean surface. And since our only way of measuring solar effects on Earth’s climate is to measure the temperature anomaly of that climate, there is no way to extract various intrinsic and extrinsic sources from that temperature data. The only thing we can currently do is take top of the atmosphere measures of changes in TSI and translate that into w/m2, which can then be calculated to produce a change of 0.1 degree Celsius under clear sky conditions. As to the degree Celsius change in a column of ocean water from clear sky TSI variation, all bets are off. I can’t see that size of small print without my cheaters.
Well, I’m still bopefull the Svensmark hypothesis will prove out. I assume you will grant me that the cosmic ray variation is significant and follows the sun’s 11 year cycle:
http://www.puk.ac.za/opencms/export/PUK/html/fakulteite/natuur/nm_data/data/SRU_Graph.jpg
Further, the effects on clouds found days after Forbush seems convincing.
Thus I am both surprised and disappointed each time.a supposed 11-year cycle in the climate data fails to prove out.
And where did you see me say that ?? I said there was a peak in the FT. I also said I did not like the idea of DJF averages.
Later I looked at the monthly data. There is not 22y peak. There is a 11.88y but not a dominant one. There is also 18.2 and 9.4 which could be lunar but are not close enough to be strongly attributable.
I don’t usual bother with this kind of mangled, over processed data : PC of EOF etc. This is the sort of games that climatology picks up from econometrics. They normally play havoc with spectral content of the data so the whole thing become a waste of time.
Mike,
I have shown that there is a strong lunar tidal signal that is present in both the [southern] summer (DJF) mean sea level pressure (MSLP) and sea-surface temperature (SST) anomaly maps for the Southern Hemisphere between 1947 and 1994.
Ian R. G. Wilson, Nikolay S. Sidorenkov
Long-Term Lunar Atmospheric Tides in the Southern Hemisphere
The Open Atmospheric Science Journal, 2013, 7: 51-76
http://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOASCJ-7-51
The sole reason for picking the summer months is to [largely] remove the seasonal component of the changes in MSLP and SST that are caused by the Sun. In essence, we removed most of the annual variations produced by the Sun in the belief that it could potentially mask an underlying long-term lunar tidal signal.
This paper also shows that if you do not allow for:
a) a possible confounding between cyclical solar variations (e.g. at the annual time scale, as well as at the 11 & 22 year solar cycle) and cyclical lunar variations (e.g. at 8.85, 9.3, 13, 18, 18.6, 20.3, 31, 62 years)
b) possible modulation of inter-annual cyclical variations by much longer term climate cycles e.g. the 60 – 80 year cycle.
you might come to the erroneously conclusion made by Willis.
I have read your paper. Seems like pretty tortured data AND analysis techniques to me. And I am unimpressed with your comparison to temperatures from just two placed on Earth. What did your peer review panel say if you’ve a mind to share that info?
The sole reason for picking the summer months is to [largely] remove the seasonal component of the changes in MSLP and SST that are caused by the Sun.
The best way to remove an annual signal when looking for decadal and longer changes is a low pass filter. Have you looked at frequency characteristics of your 3:9 rectangular wave chopper plus the averaging?
What happens if the magnitude of the annual signal you think you have removed increases ? You will read that as global warming even if the all year mean stays the same.
I’m familiar with your paper and the wave number=4 pattern is intriguing. It would be a shame if it was an artefact of poor processing. Does it still appear if you use a low pass filter like a gaussian to remove the annual cycle, rather than chopping out the summers only?
Mike September 19, 2015 at 4:03 am
Cut the data in half and see if the cycle is still there … OOPS! In one half of the data it’s at 22 years, and in the other half, guess what? It’s at 18 years.
Did you not read the part in the head post about why I look at both halves of the data? It’s to prevent me from making foolish mistakes like your claim about the 22 year cycle …
w.
And having cut the 115y of data in half you have about 58 data points of very noisy data in which you are seeking to confirm or refute the presence of a 22y periodicity. You are then probably distorting both with a taper function. How accurately to think you either of your results are ? Are they contradictory as you foolishly assume or may the two results be consistent with each other within the accuracy of technique?
I already said I did not like the DJF idea and that period is closer to 25y when using all the monthly data so it may not be solar at all. I was just saying in applying a filter ( apparently without looking at all the data first ) they may be blinkering what they were doing anyway. They would presumably have reported a 22y had they looked and seen it.
Lord help me.
Linear doesn’t mean “in a line”. It doesn’t even mean “unique” (which is how I suspect you’ve misunderstood the term), simple or straight forward. Linear means that the form of the response does not depend upon the amplitude of the input.
This paper http://nldr.library.ucar.edu/repository/assets/osgc/OSGC-000-000-003-926.pdf doesn’t even use the word linear and figure 1 shows a non-linear response so I can’t figure out where your misunderstanding might be.
“semi-linear transformation” WTH? What is a semi-linear transformation? Is that from Hildebrand? Oh that’s right. You can’t understand Hildebrand. It’s just made up. nm.
“they must have tried the annual NAOI” How do you know this? You don’t. Just because you would make a mistake doesn’t mean others would have. In fact, come to think of it, if I had to bet, I’d say they had a good reason to do this and you just don’t understand. Then, in the the habit of finding fault with your betters, you assume they, not you, did something wrong.
Skimming through the rest of the post, a new idea has come to mind. You’ve read a paper you didn’t understand that made some conclusions which you decided aren’t that good….. So what? There are lots of papers that strike me the same way. In fact, I’ve published some. Sometimes a researcher spends a few weeks/months going down a certain path or trying a certain analysis method or something and is unimpressed with the result. It’s not as if the conclusions are wrong per se. It’s just that the work didn’t pan out the way one hoped and is unimpressive. The result should still be published even if it might run afoul of some amateur who thinks every paper should end with……. E=mc^2!
Dinostratus wrote:
“You’ve read a paper you didn’t understand that made some conclusions which you decided aren’t that good….. So what? There are lots of papers that strike me the same way. In fact, I’ve published some. Sometimes a researcher spends a few weeks/months going down a certain path or trying a certain analysis method or something and is unimpressed with the result. It’s not as if the conclusions are wrong per se. It’s just that the work didn’t pan out the way one hoped and is unimpressive. The result should still be published even if it might run afoul of some amateur who thinks every paper should end with……. E=mc^2!”
Exactly right.
Dinostratus September 19, 2015 at 5:53 am
I certainly hope someone does.
Say what? “Linear” on my planet means that the input and the response graph in a straight line. Not sure what your meaning is.
Had you read my other links you might have noticed that Kiehl’s analysis was not entirely correct, and that when looked at properly the response is linear …
Generally, I use the term to mean a transformation that is “piecewise linear”, in other words, linear enough that we can treat it as linear in the region of interest. For example, the relationship between temperature and thermal radiation is actually T^4 … but in many climate analyses it is treated as though it were linear. I also use the term to mean “linear plus noise”, where the response doesn’t graph exactly on a straight line but it is clear that the underlying relationship has a basically linear form.
Any other terms you want explained, feel free to ask … I sometimes don’t use the most sciency terms because I’m writing for the educated layman and not the specialist, so I can see how you might get confused.
Not from Hildebrand, and not from Hilfinger either … and since you haven’t either quoted or identified just what you are talking about, it appears you’re just making meaningless noises that are intended to impress the credulous.
It doesn’t matter either way. Since they are examining only a quarter of a dataset, they still need to use the Bonferroni correction, whether they are my “betters” or not …
So to sum up:
• You haven’t identified any problems with my CCF analysis, and
• You haven’t said there is anything wrong with my Fourier analysis, and
• You didn’t mention any difficulties with my Granger causality analysis, and
• You haven’t noted any issues with my use of red-noise to show problems with their work …
… so instead you are reduced to nit-picking about my terminology, misunderstanding when the Bonferroni correction needs to be used, and hurling various unsupported insults.
Classy, dino … real classy. Come back when you have a scientific objection, and we can discuss it. Until then, at least your fanboi Mike M. thinks you are wonderful, so there’s some consolation …
w.
“Linear” on my planet means that the input and the response graph in a straight line.”
No.
No.
No.
No one gives a F what you mean on your planet. These are precise mathematical definitions. A linear response does NOT mean a straight line. It doesn’t. Your posts are just made up BS where you use your own words for misunderstood concepts and find fault with your betters.
I’d said:
You said:
Classy.
Google images for “linear relationship”
Notice a common thread about those images, Dino? Is it just a coincidence that the “input and the response graph in a straight line” in every one of them, just like I said? Here’s a definition from the web:
That’s what I said I meant by linear. Now, there assuredly may be other meanings, but that is the one I was using.
Finally, as I said above, it appears you can find nothing wrong with my scientific analysis, so you endlessly whine about my terminology … someday you might get back to the science. Let me know when that happens, OK?
w.
“it appears you can find nothing wrong with my scientific analysis”
Well you’re off by only two words this time. I can’t find your scientific analysis.
Thanks, Willis. Very incisive review.
Using modeled output as input I think guarantees inconsequential results.
There are 5 items that influence the NAO phase Willis not one.
-NAO
AP INDEX LESS THEN 5
HIGH LATITUDE VOLCANIC ACTIVITY
QBO NEGATIVE
AMO IN WARM PHASE
LOWER THEN NORMAL ARCTIC SEA ICE.
Reverse items for a +NAO PHASE.
And you mix them in what proportion in your recipe? Does your recipe work going backwards?
This is a guide that if you think about it makes sense. Is it 100%? No it is not but I think on balance it is correct.
The order of most important versus least important in my mind is as follows;
ap index 5 or less- low solar tends to effect ozone distribution in that the polar stratosphere warms more then the lower latitudes. Favors a -NAO.
qbo negative when ap index is less then 5 from past data seems to equate to a very neg. AO/NAO.
high latitude volcanic activity -because it tends to warm the polar stratosphere in contrast to lower latitudes.
amo warm phase- will give rise to more troughs lower pressure in higher latitudes.
less arctic sea ice- similar to amo warm phase effects.
Salvatore, Pamela asked for numbers, not handwaving claims about “seems to equate” and “tends to effect” and the like …
w.
I may have used a more domestic phrase than I should have. But yes, your model please, in numbers. In a calculable algebraic expression.
Salvatore, as usual your comment is full of claims and extremely short on data …
w.
Willis. A half dozen more 11 year cycles for you.
http://notrickszone.com/2015/09/15/review-by-german-experts-show-that-even-the-11-year-solar-cycle-has-undeniable-impact-on-global-climate/
No thanks, J. I don’t do data dumps. I just looked at the first one and found it is only peripherally about the 11-year solar cycle, and there is no associated dataset. You’re just attempting to waste my time, and I don’t go on snipe hunts for any man.
If you will read through the papers and identify the one that you think is the strongest, and provide a link to the DATASET that they actually used, I’m happy to look at it. Most such papers use datasets that are not available, and without that, all that is left are their claims.
I can analyze data. I cannot analyze claims in the absence of data.
w.
Let me add that I am always highly suspicious of claims that the 11-year cycle can be found in some kind of proxy data from long ago … if that were so, why is it not evident in today’s actual climate data?
According to your citation, they’ve found evidence in tree rings from 1010 to 1110 AD … and foraminifera from 707 BC–AD 1979 … and lamination thicknesses during the Bolling-Allerod … and in an unknown “climate proxy record” during the Maunder Minimum …
Perhaps that impresses you, but if so, consider that the same phenomena that allegedly made the tree rings from 1010 to 1110 show an 11-year cycle still exist today … so why don’t we find the same variations in today’s tree rings all over the world?
w.
Even the 11± year cycle does not cooperate well with the solar cycle.
See Anomalously low solar extreme-ultraviolet irradiance and thermospheric density during solar minimum and the failure of Ionospheric total electron contents (TECs) as indicators of solar EUV changes during the last two solar minima.
You actually must collect data near the edge of space to measure EUV irradiance, a task outside the scope of this 145 year study.
Willis you say that they must have looked at the annual data and found it wanting and the other seasons and found them wanting as well. How do you know they did so? Is it not possible they starting by looking at winter for theoretical reasons? You sound pretty sure you know what they did and why they did it, but why? I’ve seen a lot teleconnection studies immediately jump to the winter data, I think everyone in this field just knows that is where there are interesting things in the data.
“Simulations by the NCAR Thermosphere-Ionosphere-Electrodynamics General Circulation Model are compared to thermospheric density measurements, yielding evidence that the primary cause of the low thermospheric density was the unusually low level of solar extreme-ultraviolet irradiance.”
Thermosphere density changes cause the formation of waves in the stratosphere that have an impact on the pressure, in particular, above the polar circles.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2010GL044468/abstract
Willis writes:
“However, it does mean that if such a causal relationship exists, it is likely to be extremely weak.”
I am not surprised, they should have been considering the solar wind coupling in the polar regions instead.
From the paper:
“Recently, analysis of long-term SLP and sea surface temperature observations suggest that the surface climate response to the 11-year solar cycle maximizes with a lag of a few years. These findings were supported by a large ensemble of short-term idealized coupled ocean-atmosphere model experiments, which indicate that the lagged response of the NAO arises from ocean–atmosphere coupling mechanisms. Atmospheric circulation changes associated with the NAO affect the underlying Atlantic Ocean by modulating surface air temperature, atmosphere-ocean heat fluxes, as well as mid-latitude wind stress. This induces a typical sea surface temperature tripolar pattern anomaly that can persist from one winter to the next and amplify the initial atmospheric solar signal over the subsequent years through positive feedbacks onto the atmosphere.”
The cold season NAO became increasing negative as the AMO warmed from the mid 1990’s. That doesn’t strike me as a positive feedback:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/season.JFM.nao.gif
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/looknorthyorkslincs/ahlbeck_solar_activity.pdf
This makes my case Willis.
Look at figure 6 in the above pdf I sent. Data supports my thought of a negative QBO /VERY LOW SOLAR ACTIVITY equates to a negative AO which is a very good proxy for the NAO.
Solar forcing synchronizes decadal North Atlantic climate variability is interesting, also.
Anyway, a citation of this paper is Role of the QBO in modulating the influence of the 11 year solar cycle on the atmosphere using constant forcings and doesn’t have a pay barrier when the EPDF is opened on my computer (I have been a paying customer, recently, so others may not have the same experience since it’s not marked for open access).
The polar stratospheric winds blow eastward during solar maximums and blow westward during solar minimums, affecting temperature, ozone level, and so on.
Mr. Eschenbach–
(If you read this at all), I appreciate and am in fact stunned at how, time after time, you take on all comers here in your posts. It gives me the image a chess grand master playing an exhibition of simultaneous chess, but with higher stakes. I don’t know how you do it. I appreciate your communication skills, by the way, and what must be your courage in putting yourself “out there”.
Thanks, William, much appreciated. Regarding your question of how I do it, I do it the old-fashioned way. I put in lots of hard work and lots of time, and I re-read and edit my posts and comments extensively before publishing.
One recent change for me is that following my lifelong precept of “Retire Early … And Often”, I’m retired again, which gives me more time. But I’ve done the same thing for the last 550+ posts that I’ve put up at WUWT, through a variety of jobs, living both in the US and overseas. My problem is that I’m endlessly fascinated by the climate, and there is always so much to learn, that whatever spare time I have is totally consumed.
As to putting myself “out there”, I don’t like being shown to be wrong any more than the next man. Paradoxically, however, being shown wrong is the most important thing that can happen to me on the web—it can and does save me literally months of wasted work going down a wrong path.
Anyhow, thanks for your good thoughts. They do help to balance out the abuse that I take, abuse that I occasionally deserve but which mostly is just unpleasant, untrue mud-slinging.
Regards,
w.
In a very different approach, to studying relationships between solar and terrestrial cycles, I have taken advantage of the exceptionally long period of low solar activity (SSN<10) between solar cycles 23-24 (www.ocean-sci-discuss.net/12/103/2015/ doi:10.5194/osd-12-103-2015: P E Binns, Atmosphere-ocean interactions in the Greenland Sea during solar cycles 23-24, 2002-2011). Unusually, the main parameter measured was the day-to-day variability in the in the Sea Surface Temperature ‘field’; I also treated the 3409 SST ‘fields’ as objects and classified them using Cluster Analysis. Results:-
1) A statistically significant difference in day-to day variability during the period with SSN<10 (using both parametric and non-parametric tests).
2) During the transition from summer to winter, there are systematic, inter-annual changes in variability, which relate to the level of solar activity.
3) The ‘topography’ of the late summer SST fields exhibit symmetry about the years of low solar activity.
Detailed examination of infra-red satellite images show that the day-to-day variability of the SST field was strongly (but not exclusively) associated with the passage of weather systems. [Yes, this is semi-quantitative, unlike pressure tracking algorithms, but you catch and record a lot more detail]. I found some correlation with the daily NAO index, but only in winter month and during the period of lowest solar activity (r=0.54).
A mechanism for this apparent relationship between solar activity and surface weather? There is a substantial mainstream literature (summarised in the paper) relating solar activity to the North Atlantic climate and the NAO. The proposed mechanism involves the solar ultra-violet band (apparently much stronger than previously thought) acting on the stratosphere and the effects propagating down into the troposphere.
The initial reaction to this paper was very positive and it was accepted at ‘Discussion’ level. Subsequent refereeing was not positive and stimulated a detailed technical exchange, only one comment of which was posted.
Mr Eschenbach,
First off, thank you for posting (and defending and, when warranted, correcting) your ideas here in public. I think that used to be called “science.”
I am not a cyclomaniac, but I think I know where a signal might hide: the local onset time of clouds in the tropics. If I understand your thermostat hypothesis correctly, it predicts that any trend that would tend to warm the surface would be counteracted by the clouds forming a bit earlier in the day.
As to where one could find a long enough dataset that includes cloud formation times, I’ve no idea. But someone here might.
Thanks again for the years of enlightening reading.
A W
Thanks, Andrew. See here and here for discussion of that very topic …
w.
Willis,
I see I engaged in excessive brevity. I am reasonably certain I’ve digested all your posts on the thermostat hypothesis. FWIW, I’ve not seen anything else that explains what data we’ve got any better.
My intent was to suggest targeting for your cyclomaniac Whack-a-Mole hammer. There is an implication of the thermostat hypothesis that I had missed: To the extent that there is a solar-cycle influence on temperature, it may show up _only_ in the tropical cloud onset time. It may be that the thermostat corrects for the putative solar influence so completely that only cloud formation time bears the imprint.
It seems to me that the data may well be in the buoy data you’ve used in the past to examine cloud vs temperature relationships (e.g., midnight temperature vs cloud formation time), but I’m not sure how far back it goes.
So, back to brevity: If there is an 11 year signal, I’d expect to see it in the local time of cloud formation.
Thanks again for the free ice cream, and enjoy this iteration of retirement,
A W