Guest essay by Euan Mearns
In their seminal paper on the Vostok Ice Core, Petit et al (1999) [1] note that CO2 lags temperature during the onset of glaciations by several thousand years but offer no explanation. They also observe that CH4 and CO2 are not perfectly aligned with each other but offer no explanation. The significance of these observations are therefore ignored. At the onset of glaciations temperature drops to glacial values before CO2 begins to fall suggesting that CO2 has little influence on temperature modulation at these times.
As discussed at the end of this post, consideration of the geochemical cycles of CO2 and CH4 in ice, permafrost, terrestrial and oceanic biospheres and in deep ocean water during freeze – thaw glacial cycles suggests that it is inevitable that CO2 and CH4 are going to correlate with temperature in a general way. This correlation shows that CO2 and CH4 are controlled by temperature and so provides no evidence for CO2 or CH4 amplifying temperature signals that are linked to orbital cycles.
Introduction
Figure 1 The location of Antarctica, Vostok and other ice core locations.
The Russian Vostok Antarctic base lies 1300 km from the S pole, close to the centre of the Antarctica continent at an elevation of 3488 m. It currently receives 2.6 mm precipitation per year. Average temperature is -55˚C and the record low is -89.2˚C which is below the freezing point of CO2. Vostok is one of the most hostile places on Earth.
There is a history of drilling various ice cores at Vostok. The main ice core, the subject of this post, was drilled in 1995. The Vostok ice core is 3310 m long and represents 422,766 years of snow accumulation. One year is therefore represented by only 7.8 mm of ice. Vostok is a cold, cold desert and the very slow ice accumulation rate introduces significant uncertainties to the data.
In addition to ice cores, Vostok is famous for the sub-glacial lake that lies beneath that has been mapped as one of the largest lakes in the world covering 14,000 sq kms. It is clearly a lot warmer under the ice than on its surface.
Figure 2 Vostok scenery
Data: Temperature, CO2 and CH4
In comparing the temperature, CO2 and CH4 signals in the Vostok ice core, it is important to understand that the temperature signal is carried by hydrogen : deuterium isotope abundance in the water that makes the ice whilst the CO2 and CH4 signals are carried by air bubbles trapped in the ice. The air bubbles trapped by ice are always deemed to be younger than the ice owing to the time lag between snow falling and it being compacted to form ice. In Vostok, the time lag between snow falling and ice trapping air varies between 2000 and 6500 years. There is therefore a substantial correction applied to bring the gas ages in alignment with the ice ages and the accuracy of this needs to be born in mind in making interpretations. Vostok data can be downloaded here.
Note that in all my charts time is passing from right to left with the “present day” to the left. The present day (year zero) is deemed to be 1995, the year that the cores were drilled. The GT4 time scale of Petit et al is used [1].
The methane concentrations in gas bubbles and temperature variations in Vostok are incredibly well aligned, especially at the terminations and return to glaciation when temperature variations are at their greatest. (Figure 3).
Figure 3 Methane and temperature variations. Note how methane and temperature are particularly strongly aligned at the terminations and during subsequent decline back to glacial conditions.
This shows that the ice age to gas age calibration is good. But does it show that methane variations of ±200 ppbV (parts per billion) are amplifying the orbital control of glaciations?
The fit of CO2 to temperature is actually not nearly so tight as for CH4. There is a persistent tendency for CO2 to lag temperature throughout and this time lag is most pronounced at the onset of each glacial cycle “where CO2 lags temperature by several thousand years” [1] (Figure 4).
Figure 4 CO2 and temperature appear well-correlated in a gross sense but there are some significant deviations. At the terminations, the alignment is as good as observed for methane. But upon descent into the following glaciation there is a time lag between CO2 and temperature of several thousand years. Petit et al [1] make the observation but fail to offer an explanation and to take the significance into account preferring to make instead unsupportable claims about CO2 and CH4 amplifying orbital forcing.
It is therefore no surprise that CO2 and CH4 show significant differences (Figure 5) with CO2 lagging CH4 in a fashion similar to the lag between CO2 and temperature.
Figure 5 CO2 lags methane in a manner similar to the lag between CO2 and temperature. This time lag requires an explanation rooted in the geochemical environments that are both emitting and sequestering these gases. Petit et al [1] devote surprisingly little space to explaining the physical processes behind the CO2 and methane variations at all.
Petit et al [1] appear to have been more eager to emphasise the similarities than to report the important differences…
The overall correlation between our CO2 and CH4 records and the Antarctic isotopic temperature is remarkable (r2 1⁄4 0:71 and 0.73 for CO2 and CH4, respectively). This high correlation indicates that CO2 and CH4 may have contributed to the glacial–interglacial changes over this entire period by amplifying the orbital forcing along with albedo, and possibly other changes.
In fact the high correlation is best explained by CO2 and CH4 both responding to temperature change as opposed to “causing it” and there is zero evidence from this data that amplification of orbital forcing has taken place, which is not to say that it has not happened.
Figure 6 provides an expanded view of the last glaciation where it can be seen quite clearly that there is a time lag of about 8,000 years between temperature falling and CO2 being pumped down. The temperature fell to glacial conditions (-6˚C) with CO2 at interglacial values (265 ppmV). Methane fell immediately with temperature but CO2 did not. This suggets that CO2 has little control over the main structure of the glacial cycle that is controlled by orbital forcing. There are similar time lags at the beginning of each glacial cycle (Figure 4). This is clearly an important and reproducible geological process or sequential combination of processes.
Figure 6 Detail of the last 150,000 years showing how CO2 lags temperature by about 8,000 years following the Eemian inter-glacial. Full glacial conditions were established with inter-glacial CO2 concentrations.
Discussion
The cyclicity of the CO2 and methane needs to be interpreted in terms of flux, sources and sinks. When the concentration rises this shows that the rate of production exceeds the rate of removal and vice versa. Envisaging glacial cycles there are a multitude of processes that one can imagine influencing both CO2 and CH4 flux. For example, sea level rise and fall flooding or draining land, vegetation growth and decay, changes to soils, ice sheets and permafrost melting, changes in ocean bio-productivity, changes in ocean circulation, in particular thermohaline circulation.
CH4 and CO2 rise together with temperature at the terminations and it is tempting to suggest that the source for these two gases is the same. This is likely to be only partly true. The most prominent source for the CH4 is likely to be melting permafrost around and beneath melting northern hemisphere ice sheets. This will also release some CO2. The ice itself also contains small amounts of both gases. The most likely source for most of the CO2 is considered to be the oceans where warming seawater can hold less CO2. It is straight forward to explain the concordant rise of CH4 and CO2 with temperature at a time of rapid warming and ice sheet melting. When the warming halts so does the rise of CO2 and CH4, but then, with greenhouse gases at a maximum things turn colder. This alone suggests that greenhouse gases play a minor role in modulating glacial temperature and climate.
So why do CH4 and CO2 not follow each other down during cooling? There is not actually a sink for CH4. It is destroyed rather in the atmosphere by reaction with sunlight and oxygen to form CO2. The residence time is rather short, about 10 years. And so once added to the atmosphere it is quickly destroyed by conversion to CO2. The rapid warming that marks the beginning of an interglacial is normally followed in short order by rapid cooling. One can imagine the permafrost gradually freezing again, resulting in a reduction of the methane flux, the rate of destruction overtakes the rate of release and the concentration falls.
The large time lag for CO2 is not so easy to explain. At the termination and during the warming phase one has to imagine poleward migration and growth of forests. I can only guess that the mass of the terrestrial biosphere increases. I don’t know what may happen to the mass of the ocean biosphere which is often more productive in cold water? I can also speculate that thermohaline circulation is established or amplified enabling the partial degassing of the deep, carbon rich ocean. It is difficult to fit these pieces together in a quantitative way but suffice to say that warming leads to an increase in atmospheric CO2. So why does cooling not draw CO2 down again immediately?
An obvious thought is that this is linked to thermal inertia of the oceans. That the land and atmosphere had cooled with the oceans lagging a few thousand years behind. A simple way to check this was to compare Vostok CO2 against the ocean temperature record as recorded by the d18O signatures of globally distributed benthic foraminifera [3] (Figure 7). There is a similar time lag in the oceans between temperature (d18O) and CO2 (Figure 7) so the thermal inertia idea does not work.
Figure 7 There is a similar time lag between CO2 from Vostok and the temperature record of benthic foraminifera in the N Atlantic [3] showing that the slow pump down of CO2 has nothing to do with the thermal inertia of the oceans.
So what may actually be going on? A few months ago Roger and I had a series of posts on Earth’s carbon cycle. We never really got to the bottom of it but in the process learned a lot and turned up much interesting data. I made three interim conclusions 1) deep ocean water contains much more carbon than the surface, and because of this 2) the much publicised oceanic CO2 solubility pump cannot exist and 3) most CO2 is removed from the atmosphere by photosynthesis – trees on land and phytoplankton in the oceans [4]. This may help us to understand the CO2 time lag. The deep oceans contain vast amounts of carbon, the product of rotting plankton at depth, and when the oceans warm or overturn, this C can be released to the atmosphere, quickly. But the return trip is not so simple since this depends on photosynthetic rates. In short, it seems that the oceans can exhale CO2 much more easily than it can be inhaled again.
On land, the re-creation of northern hemisphere ice sheets will kill high latitude forests and cause global migration of climatic belt boundaries towards the equator. Killing forests reduces the size of the terrestrial CO2 pump whilst simultaneously adding a source of CO2 – rotting wood. This will tend to offset the oceanic biosphere’s ability to pump CO2 down during the cooling phase.
Conclusions
- Over four glacial cycles CO2, CH4 and temperature display cyclical co-variation. This has been used by the climate science community as evidence for amplification of orbital forcing via greenhouse gas feedbacks.
- I am not the first to observe that CO2 lags temperature in Vostok [2] and indeed Petit et al [1] make the observation that at the onset of glaciation CO2 lags temperature by several thousand years. But they fail to discuss this and the fairly profound implications it has.
- Temperature and CH4 are extremely tightly correlated with no time lags. Thus, while CO2 and CH4 are correlated with temperature in a general sense, in detail their response to global geochemical cycles are different. Again Petit et al [1] make the observation but fail to discuss it.
- At the onset of the last glaciation the time lag was 8,000 years and the world was cast into the depths of an ice age with CO2 variance evidently contributing little to the large fall in temperature.
- The only conclusion possible from Vostok is that variations in CO2 and CH4 are both caused by global temperature change and freeze thaw cycles at high latitudes. These natural geochemical cycles makes it inevitable that CO2 and CH4 will correlate with temperature. It is therefore totally invalid to use this relationship as evidence for CO2 forcing of climate, especially since during the onset of glaciations, there is no correlation at all.
[1] J. R. Petit*, J. Jouzel†, D. Raynaud*, N. I. Barkov‡, J.-M. Barnola*, I. Basile*, M. Bender§, J. Chappellaz*, M. Davisk, G. Delaygue†, M. Delmotte*, V. M. Kotlyakov¶, M. Legrand*, V. Y. Lipenkov‡, C. Lorius*, L. Pe ́ pin*, C. Ritz*, E. Saltzmank & M. Stievenard† (1999) Climate and atmospheric history of the past 420,000 years from the Vostok ice core, Antarctica. NATURE | VOL 399 | 3 JUNE 1999 |
[2] Jo Nova: The 800 year lag – graphed
[3] Lisiecki & Raymo (2005) A Pliocene-Pleistocene stack of 57 globally distributed benthic D18O records. PALEOCEANOGRAPHY, VOL. 20, PA1003, doi:10.1029/2004PA001071
[4] Energy Matters: The Carbon Cycle: a geologist’s view
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to many fingers
http://www.scottwolteranswers.blogspot.com/
Great Walls in China and California thread….
There is no mystery about the lag in the Vostok records. You can find the same thing in the Epica Dome studies.
For the last seven glaciations temperature has driven [CO2] in the atmosphere owing to Henry’s law that governs the solubility of gases in liquids. As the temperature of the oceans rises gases such as CO2 become less soluble in water so the atmospheric concentration rises. The process of heating the oceans takes many hundreds of years so the lag is typically greater than 500 years:
https://diggingintheclay.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/the-dog-that-did-not-bark/
Researchers such as Thomas F. Stocker know the truth but they prefer to that CO2 drives temperature. That is why I think of them as “Princes of Darkness”.
Yes, but the much longer lag in the drop of CO2 after the cooling started and even reached a new low, is not directly explicable by Henry’s law…
In your Epica versus Vostok temperature comparison, Epica leads Vostok by thousands of years during the last ice age (110,000) but lags by several thousand in the two previous events. If two temperature reconstructions are lagging and leading each other by several thousand years how can we attempt to calculate CO2 versus temperature lag with any confidence?
Sorry to be a huge dunce, but I have read numerous times that CO2 lags temperature by 800 years (e.g. the link to Jo Nova), not 8000 years. Can someone help please?
That is only for the warming phase: the lag as seen in the ice cores is 800 +/- 600 years after the temperature increase from the depth of a glacial period to a warm interglacial. With the onset of a new glacial period, the lags are many thousands of years. That is difficult to explain…
Check out gallopingcamel’s link (just up-thread) and you can see temperature lagging temperature by thousands of years. Then you will be just as dumb as I am.
Anthropogenic produced carbon dioxide causes global warming so shut your [ … ] faces!
Does anyone care to explain why the temperature rises at the end of an ice age much faster than it falls after an interglacial. It happens every time, so it seems like there should be a fairly straightforward explanation.
The Expansion and Contraction of the solar system itself can do all of this natural variability! but follow the Co2 gods if you must!
see:
ferdberple December 27, 2014 at 11:33 am
“..it seems like there should be a fairly straightforward explanation”
If there is, nobody has found it yet.
TRG: Are you sure about that?
Definitely not. However, the rapid rise of temperature and the slow decline is one of the most prominent features of the data. It demands to be explained. There are also a number of lesser spikes which for some reason fail to stop the big cooling trend. If CO2 were as strong at warming as is supposed by some, you’d think those lesser spikes would have kept on going up. Perhaps the data is wrong, and the ice cores just don’t tell us what we think they do. It’s a mystery to me.
I recently posted above my favored explanation for how glaciation begins. In summary, orbital changes only begin the NH process, but it is driven by heat transfer from the oceans and albedo. So, heating from more than increasing the TOA insolation reverses the process. But it is not straight-forward.
TRG:
Orbital eccentricity began a steady down trend for both NH and SH about 120 kyr and started the NH glaciation. Super-imposed on that are ~21 kyr cycles caused by apsidal precession changes which are generally associated with the lesser temperature spikes.
One must make close study of the complexities of orbital cycles.
Wrap Co2 around the millions of homeless to keep them warm this winter!
The work of Ernst-Georg Beck (e.g. Evidence of Variability of Atmospheric CO2 Concentration During the Twentieth Century – May 2008) clearly demonstrates why ice core sample test results on atmospheric carbon dioxide have not accurately reflected the fluctuating atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide as revealed in over 90,000 carbon dioxide values based on accurate chemical analyses results between 1857 and 1960.
Sorry Mervyn,
The compilation by the late Ernst Beck is based on CO2 measurements at places heavily contaminated by local sinks and sources: midst of Paris, in between and under growing crops, apparatus which was accurate to +/- 150 ppmv CO2,…
If you look at the historical data which were taken with relative good equipment (+/- 10 ppmv) over the oceans or coastal with wind from the sea, the data are (widely) around the ice core values over the same period. See further:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/beck_data.html
This issue could largely be resolved simply by replicating the experiments in the same location, same equipment, same time of year etc..
Obviously, some places have undergone significant environmental change, but others not so much. It would be very interesting to see what results would be achieved today if the old experiments were to be replicated today.
Perhaps i should have added to my previosu comment.
A genuine scientist does not reject data without cause. If a scientist has reason to consider that there is a data issue, then the reasoning for this view should be tested.
If a genuine scientist has a theory as to why a data stream may be unreliable/questionable, he would wish to test his theory.
It is difficult to understand how a genuine scientist would reject the vast body of data (brought together and surmarised by Beck) without first replicating the old experimental data, as far as that was reasonably possible to see whether his suspicions regarding the validity of the data are correct, or misplaced.
Richard, I have found a modern duplicate of the longest series in Ernst Beck’s compilation (1941-1942): Linden/Giessen (SW Germany), where CO2 was measured 3 times a day: morning, early afternoon and evening. The modern station takes samples (GC) every half hour for CO2, CH4 and other components. The neighborhood didn’t change much and still is semi-rural, modern measuring point at the edge of a suburb, but I suppose that traffic is much more dense nowadays. The modern point is located at a few km from the historical point, which was slightly more into the main wind direction passing the small town.
Here a few summer days with nightly inversion, compared between Giessen, Mauna Loa, Barrow and the South Pole (all raw data):
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/giessen_background.jpg
It is quite simple to test for the reliability of the historical data, if there are a sufficient number of samples: if the variability is huge, then the data are contaminated by local sources and sinks (or methods used).
The historical data compiled at Giessen had a stdev of 68 ppmv (1 sigma).
The modern data at Linden/Giessen have a stdev of about 30 ppmv and a positive bias of about 40 ppmv over a year compared to the bulk of the atmosphere, but even the monthly averages show unexplainable huge peaks.
The raw data of Mauna Loa are at 4 ppmv stdev, including all outliers and the seasonal swings, Barrow is double that due to larger seasonal variation and the South Pole is halve that…
The huge diurnal CO2 variability which Keeling measured at Big Sur state park (California) begin ’50ies was accompanied by a reverse variability of the δ13C level: thus the variability was caused by vegetation. As he also measured in deserts and had less variability, he was looking for better places to measure “background” CO2. That were the South Pole first, followed by Mauna Loa a year later.
As many of the historical data were taken at similar places like Giessen, it is near impossible to draw any conclusion from these data…
There are two major problems with the summer insolation at a certain latitude theory of glaciation that I can see.The insolation in the northern hemisphere in summer is larger when the northern hemisphere is tilted towards the sun at earths closest approach to the sun but that also means that the northern hemisphere is tilted away from the sun when earth is at its maximum distance from the sun ,this will likely negate any increase in surface temperature in the northern hemisphere.We see from the present surface temperature data in the northern hemisphere that having a constant solar insolation does not mean that we have a constant surface temperature ,we can have warm summers followed by cold winters or we can have mild winters followed by cold summers.If the earth axis of rotation was upright and not set at an angle to its orbit round the sun then there would be a small random fluctuation from the expected surface temperature during the year but because the earths axis is not upright then surface temperatures in the northern hemisphere can wander further from the expected value if summer and winter have fluctuations in different directions,this is possible and may be the reason for the little ice age.
You are leaving out obliquity which is always approaching maximum at the start of interglacials and reducing towards minimum when the interglacials cease. Eccentricity also plays an important role as that has a major effect on the differences in insolation between the seasons.
Sir,
Your statements about Earth’s orbiting distance from the Sun are 180 degrees out of phase. Earth’s closest approach (perihelion) to the Sun will take place within the week, on January 3rd.
Your error can be forgiven because we know you’ve been moving really fast, as it’s been reported that you’ve been traveling at speeds around 108,000 KPH. I know from experience that sometimes it’s hard to keep looking at the cabin instruments and through the windshield, instead of into the rear view mirror, at those speeds.
The only real puzzle is why do so many sceptics here attempt to reject the ice-core records as not being reliable?
The ice-core records tell us several things:
1. Climate changes naturally
2. The warm interglacial periods, like the one we are experiencing now, come and go in a regular pattern, long before any possible suggestion of human influence.
3. The rise and fall of CO2 concentration follows temperature
4. Previous interglacials were warmer than this one.
Why would any sceptic wish to dispute any of this?
http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/graphs/lappi/gisp-last-10000-new.png
When one looks at your plot of the Greenland Ice Core, one wonders how the Vikings, with their limited technology managed to successfully farm Greenland if temperatures were only about 1degC warmer than today.
An agricultural specialist needs to review the data covering the Medieval Warming and comment upon what temperatures would have been required for the Viking to farm Greenland in their prevailing settlements.
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
Richard, I’m not an agricultural expert, but I do know that Southwest Greenland is not currently glaciated and even has a marginal forest. People do manage to grow some crops there — primarily potatoes and some table vegetables. The Vikings did not have potatoes, but they did presumably grow barley. I believe that their farming to the extent we understand it, consisted mostly of herding cattle and sheep. But they must have been able to grow enough forage to keep their herds alive over the Winters and presumably through the Summers of an occasional bad year. It’s possible that they supplemented their agriculture with marine products of one sort or another, but not on a scale that has left huge middens of shells or marine vertebrate remains for archeologists to sort through. Probably someone else knows more.
rooter
I do not have a problem with “today.”
The plot is said to be dated 2000 and defines that date (not 1950) as being the present.
Thus, 95 bp in the context of the plot is 1905. This is where the upward red trending line goes to (when it dips to ~ -31.6degC). So you are mistaken when you mention 1855 as being the date.
Further, if you want to go back into the 19th century (eg., back to the 1850s), then you must use the blue plot line which is runs out at -32degC, ie., a little more than the -1.5degC below the peak of the MW.
I took it from the plot that today’s temperatures are a little over -31.5 degC and the MW peak a little over -30.5degC. That is about 1 degC, and that stands true even if today’s temperartures (the plot is dated 2000) are ~ -30.4degC. We do not know current temperatures let alone past temperatures to a tenth of a degree accuracy, so when I mention 1degC, I am talking in broad terms..
Perhaps i should just mention that according to HADCRUT4 1905 was a peak with an anomaly of ~ -0.05, and 2000 was a trough at ~ +0.15, so only about 0.2degC difference between the plotted 1905 figure of -31.4degC. But personally, I do not read anything into that.
The concluding part of my comment which read “so only about 0.2degC difference between the plotted 1905 figure of -31.4degC. But personally, I do not read anything into that.” was badly expressed,
By way of clarification, the figure of ~ -31.4 degC is the plotted figure 95 years bp of ~ -31.6 degC plus the 0.2 deg C change in anomaly between 1905 and 2000 according to HADCRUT4.
When I say that “I do not read anything into that” this is because I consider that post the 1960s the land based thermometer records have become horribly corrupted by UHI, and contaminated by inappropriate adjustments/homogenisation and station drop outs. I have no confidence in the accumualted land based thermometer record post the 1960s, so I take that record with a pinch of salt (whilst accepting in general that there has been some uneven warming since coming out of the LIA, and that uneven warming extends into the 19th and 20th century). Further, I question that we have sufficient quality global data prior to the 1920s, to provide a proper and realistic estimation of global temperatures prior to then and going back to the 1850s.
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
Defining “present” for an ice core is not simple. The time needed to turn snow into firn into ice can be long, and the “age” of the topmost ice layer may not be clear. Further the time sequence down the ice core must be dated by using known times of dust deposition, or age-dating volcanic ash layers, or by “estimating” deposition rates. If measurement have been acquired over some time at a given core site, that will help.
rooter,
That chart has no attribution. Someone just drew a line where they wanted. And please, don’t use tinypic. They take way too long to load all their scripts. Postimage is much better, or Dropbox.
@Socks:
In your last several posts you have degenerated into juvenile name calling and immature ridicule. That’s not a good way to handle a lack of supporting facts for your arguments. They are vewry weak, so you hit back with ridicule. Stop it, please.
I am asking you nicely am I not?
As I’ve explained, no matter how many charts and links I post, none of them will have any effect on you. You will reject every one that refutes what you’re trying to sell. That’s your M.O.
Since you can’t refute any of the charts because of their excellent provenance, you have been sarcastic and insulting. A pattern like that indicates you have run out of credible facts.
For everyone else, it is widely accepted that the MWP was as warm or warmer than now; probably warmer. That ignores the preceding even warmer periods like the Holocene Maximum.
There is nothing whatever out of the ordinary happening in today’s climate. Temperatures are normal, extreme weather events have been declining for decades, and every current climate parameter has been exceeded in the past. There is nothing unusual or unprecedented happening. This is normal.
Climate alarmists cannot admit that the planet was naturally warmer more than a thousand years ago, before human emissions had any effect. And they have shown repeatedly that they cannot predict the future. None of their scary predictions have ever happened.
So when you see someone arguing that the MWP was cooler than now, remember that it is contrary to the evidence, which shows that it was warmer. They are arguing to continue their alarmist narrative.
Mr. Dbstealey
…
You post: “In your last several posts you have degenerated into juvenile name calling:
…
Please post a link to where I have done so, and highlight the specific “name calling” you accuse me of.
Sorry, I posted it in the wrong place by mistake. I’ve re-posted it.
Can you please explain the physics behind your assertion that global temperature drops at night?
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
“rooter” says:
Verney has an urge to display ignorance.
Mr. Verney has plenty of common sense. He is certainly not “ignorant”.
But you “rooter”. You are worse than ignorant.
You are a sockpuppet. I’ve seen your writing style before. You get your misinformation from incredible blogs like skepticalscience, and unload them here.
But we know better. Skeptics simply look at what Planet Earth is saying — and it isn’t saying anything like the alarmist clique claims. They can’t both be right, can they?
No. So for me, I choose to listen to the planet. Sorry you don’t agree with Planet Earth.
Continue on with your multiple identities, “rooter”. That’s the only way you can appear to have any support for your nonsense. There are really very few of you, you know. That’s why you post under so many fake names.
Hint: No one does.
I just came across this GISP2 data myself recently (someone posted a chart). It’s really quite amazing!
.
Why would anyone wish to dispute any of this? Anyone for hockey?
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
rooter……there is a temperature monitoring site about 28 km from the site where the GISP cores were dug. Boxer et al (2009) displayed this data from the GRIP site
..
http://hot-topic.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/GRIPtempBoxlarge.png
..
Two things to note…….
…
On the lower left hand side are two red marks showing the end of the GISP-2 data, but more important is to note the vertical temperature scale and compare it to the scale on the GISP-2 graph.
David Socrates. Box 2009 did not display that chart or that data for GRIP. The average annual temperature at the GRIP site is -32.0C according to the people that actually worked there.
http://www.iceandclimate.nbi.ku.dk/publications/FrozenAnnals.pdf
That is a fake chart from Skeptical Science (and should be deleted by the mods).
Bill Ills
“The current decadal average surface temperature (2001-2010) at the GISP2 site is 29.9°C.” ”
..
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011GL049444/pdf
The Box 2009 temperature chart in the paper you linked to is for GISP2 or the Summit Camp (not GRIP) and it is not -27C like your/Skeptical Science’s chart keeps showing, it is -29.9C in the darn paper.
And the Summit Camp which has actual year-round staff on hand reports that average annual temperature there is -30.2C.
So quit putting up fake charts from Skeptical Science. Most people here do not like fake charts (unlike the readers and promoters of Skeptical Science like you).
Bill Illis
…
If it makes you feel better, this is the original source of that graph. It came from Gareth Renowden posting at Hot-Topic
http://hot-topic.co.nz/easterbrooks-wrong-again/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=easterbrooks-wrong-again
…
..
PS…do you have a citation for the -30.2 number?
Hourly temp here.
ftp://aftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/data/meteorology/in-situ/sum/
You posted
” average annual temperature there is -30.2C.”
…
Then you post a link to “hourly” data
Do you understand the difference between “hourly” and “annual?”
Working from hourly data IS HOW you get annual data… And, since heat exchange is instanteous, “average” data is near useless, but hourly data can not only generate that mythical average” but can let you make daily and hourly calculations. BOTH of which are far more important. Now.
Yes RACookPE1978 that is hourly data.
I asked Bill for the citation for his post ” average annual temperature there is -30.2C.”
…
”
RACookPE1978
Also please note in the following WUWT article
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/10/new-study-shows-temperature-in-greenland-significantly-warmer-than-present-several-times-in-the-last-4000-years/
“5.3. Present Temperature in the Context of the Past 4000 Years [15] The current decadal surface temperature at Summit (2001–2010) is calculated to be −29.9 ± 0.6°C from the inversion‐ adjusted AWS record (Figure 1), and is illustrated in the 4000 year context (Figure 1). ”
…
So……what is the number..
-30..2 or -29.9 ???
Lastly Mr RACookPE1978
Look at http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel_Mcgrath/publication/258696494_Recent_warming_at_Summit_Greenland_Global_context_and_implications/links/02e7e528ce798ca4cb000000.pdf
On page 3 Figure 1
..
Most of the data points post 1995 are above the -30 degree line
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
Okay since rooter, David Socrates are incapable of being accurate and don’t how to read scientific papers or download simple hourly data,
… here is the actual annual temperatures recorded at the staffed Greenland Summit Camp (which started as the GISP2 ice core site and would be roughly the same the GRIP site 28 kms away):
2009 –> -30.1C
2010 –> -30.5C
2011 –> -31.0C
2012 –> -28.5C
2013 –> -30.2C
Five year average —> -30.1C – maybe 1.0C warmer than the final GISP2 temperatures from 1855.
Let’s not have any more fake temperature graphs. This is 43,000 hourly measurements taken on site by professional scientists who are putting their lives as risk on top on of a 3,250 metre glacier where the average annual temperature is -30.1C but gets as cold as -66.0C.
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
David Socrates on December 28, 2014 at 11:41 am
“The current decadal average surface temperature (2001-2010) at the GISP2 site is 29.9°C.” ”
..
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011GL049444/pdf
….
So .. what is the number ……
32..2 or 29.9 ?
Well you’ve moved down by 60 degrees already in deference to Bill Illis – what’s another degree plus or minus?
rooter, its you and David Socrates and the minions of Skeptical Science and Gareth from hot-topic.co.nz which are deliberately misreporting the temperatures here. As far as I can tell, Jason Box has only reported the right temperatures for the Summit Camp on Greenland and someone just made up those numbers and they did not, in fact, come from Jason Box.
Its not your fault you are so gullible and just believe any bs you read on Skeptical Science. Effectively, 97% of what is reported there is actually faked-up data. That is why most of here do not just generally believe the material from you warmers and we double-check the data ourselves.
Dear Rooter et al.
Note that the surface temperature as measured today is not comparable to the d18O temperature record, since this is tied to the temperature at the altitude where the snow condenses out of the clouds. This whole discussion is therefore essentially meaningless. To verify any change since 1855 it is necessary to analyze more recent snow layers. This should be easy enough, but for unknown reasons it has to my knowledge not ever been done for any ice core site, either on Greenland or Antarctica.
By the way the data in Box et al. 2009 is modelled, not measured, there being a marked shortage of meteorological stations on the Greenland Ice Sheet in the 1850´s. Remember that the forst time a scientist even set foot on the Greenland Icecap was in 1870, and the first time meteorological data were recorded for a full year there was at Eismitte in 1930-31.
tty:
Absolutely!!
2H/1H and 18O/16O ratios in ice cores average over several fractionation steps, going back to evaporation from sea water, where-ever that may be. Such isotopic data MUST be calibrated to a known temperature source. That is not current temperature at the site. Often a down-hole temperature profile is taken after the core is drilled, and comes back to thermal equilibrium. Lab-obtained calibration curves are also used.
IF the source of that moisture unknowingly changes during core deposition, that can throw off the fractionation calibration.
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
Rooter:
Perhaps you should try actually reading stuff before putting up links.
“There are icecores with more updated data. From Vinther 2009” (It ends in 1960, so not really that updated).
“Higher temperatures in the 20th century than during MWP.”
Yes, but not in 1960 or even 1940-60. The highest value,1.56 degrees, is for 1920-40 (as against 1.40 AD 840-860). 1940-60 however is 1.01 degrees, which is colder than four 20 year periods during the MWP). By the way that diagram you show for some reason does not include the youngest value. I wonder why?
“Anyone denying Greenland has warmed since the 1950s?”
No, but it is probably not as warm as the 1930´s.
tty:
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
”Or that the Danish met is commiting fraud:”
Well not exactly fraud, just creative graphics. You just put a number of graphs on top of each other with similar colours, making it virtually impossible to read off single years, and then draw a fictitious “average” for each station (fictitious since it goes to the end of the diagram, no way to do that with a real average). If you actually check the record you will see that the claim that recent temperatures in Greenland are higher than the 1930’s depends entirely on the exceptionally mild winter 2010/2011 which was indeed warmer than any winter in the 1930’s (here in northern Europe it was the coldest winter for about 50 years, the polar front bulged down over Europe instead of Greenland that winter, notice the dip in the Köbenhavn record).
The record for Narsarsuaq looks particularly impressive after the weather station was moved to the airport which is famous for extreme föhn effect in winter. Whenever you see a headline about record warmth in Greenland in winter you don’t need to check where on Greenland it happened.
I notice you haven´t found any actual measurements that can be compared to the ice-core record either.
tty:
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
Bill Illis says:
Okay since rooter, David Socrates are incapable of being accurate and don’t how to read scientific papers or download simple hourly data
My sentiments exactly. It is barely possible that current temperatures are the same as the MWP. But it isn’t very likely. An internationally recognized climatologist produced this EPICA chart, showing relative temperatures. [Note that CO2 does not have the claimed effect.] The GISP-2 core shows the same thing. In fact, for every bogus chart dug up by the alarmist cult, I can probably find several that contradict them. How many more would you like? Got lots!
Next, Viking settlements are still emerging from permafrost, as the Greenland continues to melt. It has been melting since the LIA, exposing more frozen settlements — which of course means that those settlements were warmer at one time. That time was the MWP, when Greenland was colonized.
Finally, anything found on Skepticalscience is very likey photoshopped. Cook is a propagandist, and he has been caught rejiggering charts in the past. Go ahead and believe that neo-Nazi if you’re so inclined, but why would anyone else? You’re here at the internet’s Best Science & Technology site, why not learn from the only honest scientists? Skeptics. Anything else is just cherry-picking to support your confirmation bias.
dbstealey…
..
The link you posted provides us with Greenland’s temps.
…
Do you have something that shows global data?
rooter,
Enough with your BEST nonsense. They have been thoroughly deconstructed for cherry-picking their time periods to show only what they want to show.
And for the few true believers who are still arguing that the MWP was colder than now, all you are doing is parroting the pseudo-science you learn at your misinformation blogs.
Stick around here, and learn some real facts for a change.
Let’s all give a round of applause for the expert climatologist Mr. Dbstealey
…
World renown for issuing the statement
..
“Yes, those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”
…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/31/2014-in-review/#comment-1825830
…
As we all know that Earth gets cold at night.
..
@Socks,
I’ve given you plenty of charts. But your mind is closed tighter than a submarine hatch. You cannot/will not learn, so why should I keep posting evidence? You will just reject it anyway. I already explained to you why.
For those with open minds, this animation shows why all the wild-eyed alarmist hand wringers here should be completely disregarded: we are in one of the most stable climates ever recorded. Temperatures have hardly budged — only a tiny 0.7ºC fluctuation, in a century and a half. But the crowd crying “WOLF!!” is trying to convince people that we’re headed for climate disaster.
Disregard them. They’re talking through their hats.
Please, oh please, Mr. dbasteleay…
…
Please post a chart that shows us when does global temperature (T) drop at night
…
Pretty please????
…
I am asking you nicely am I not?
Socks says:
Let’s all give a round of applause for the expert climatologist Mr. Dbstealey
Thank you. Thank you. I’m pleased to be here, helping educate the truly ignorant, like Mr. Sockrates..
And here we have Mr Socks, who has a problem with my quoting [paraphrasing, actually], Dr. Freeman Dyson explaining where global warming has the most effect.
But Mr Socks has no answer, so he ridicules. Ridiculous, no?
““Yes, those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/31/2014-in-review/#comment-1825830
LMAO
LMAO
LMAO
Socks,
In your last several posts you have degenerated into juvenile name calling and immature ridicule. That’s not a good way to handle a lack of supporting facts for your arguments. They are vewry weak, so you hit back with ridicule. Stop it, please.
And re:
I am asking you nicely am I not?
As I’ve explained, no matter how many charts and links I post, none of them will have any effect on you. You will reject every one that refutes what you’re trying to sell. That’s your M.O.
Since you can’t refute any of the charts because of their excellent provenance, you have become sarcastic and insulting. A pattern like that indicates you have run out of credible facts to argue.
For everyone else, it is widely accepted that the MWP was as warm or warmer than now; probably warmer. That ignores the preceding even warmer periods like the Holocene Maximum.
There is nothing whatever out of the ordinary happening in today’s climate. Temperatures are normal, extreme weather events have been declining for decades, and every current climate parameter has been exceeded in the past. There is nothing unusual or unprecedented happening. This is normal.
Climate alarmists cannot admit that the planet was naturally warmer more than a thousand years ago, before human emissions had any effect. And they have shown repeatedly that they cannot predict the future. None of their scary predictions have ever happened.
So when you see someone arguing that the MWP was cooler than now, remember that it is contrary to the evidence, which shows that it was warmer. They are arguing to continue their alarmist narrative.
‘In your last several posts you have degenerated into juvenile name calling ”
…
gee……I did? can you please copy / paste the name calling?
…
What “name” was “called?”
“That’s not a good way to handle a lack of supporting facts for your arguments. ”
…
All I did was quote YOU
…
You posted it……..why don’t you go back and edit it to hide our shame?
“As I’ve explained, no matter how many charts and links I post, none of them will have any effect on you”
…
Please
…
Please
…
( I am asking nicely am I not???)
Please
..
Post a graph that shows all of us how global temperature drops at night .
““Yes, those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”
Reference: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/31/2014-in-review/#comment-1825830
Calm down, soxieboi, you’ll blow a gasket.
As I read them, yes, your comments have degenerated into juvenile taunts, like “LMAO” repeated three times. And you are posting incessantly. As I see it, your juvenile attitude is due to your avoiding facing the fact that you have no good arguments left.
So: neener, neener.
There. We’re even.
No
…
We are not “even”
…
Not until you apologize for your “jamoke” name calling
Until you do that I will continually LMAO at global temps doping at night
Soxie, you have no sense of humor at all.
So you just go on hatin’. I’m not wasting my time with that.
Lay on your hate — because you damn sure don’t have the facts.
OK
“Yes, those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”
…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/31/2014-in-review/#comment-1825830
..
…
LMAO
LMAO
LMAO
dbstealey:
[Snip. Sockpuppetry not allowed. ~mod.]
“rooter” the sockpuppet says:
“Actualley”?? Who’s that? Someone in your part of the galaxy?
And it’s ‘godwin’, as in ‘godwin’s law’. Not “Goodwin-law”. You really don’t have a clue about anything, do you? Yes, I posted a picture of John Cook in his neo-Nazi outfit. It was his picture, so complain to him if you don’t like it.
Next, Sockpuppet, you refer to ‘credibility’. That is something you really need. A good start is to post under your real name, instead of the probably dozens of sockpuppet identities you hide behind.
I enjoyed reading this thoughtful and well written article.
Bill Illis December 28, 2014 at 11:26 am
Wrong Bill, sloppy work. The -32.0C you claimed was for the GRIP site is in fact for the Crête site back in 1974 according to the link you gave.
Page 98 about the GRIP site you doufus, “the annual mean air temperature -32C”
Heh – Happens that the Crête site is a part of the GRIP project anyhoo. Fact remains Bill, you quoted an average annual temperature that is around 30 years out of date! O.o
Truth never goes out of date.
But warmist lies are already beginning to do so – fast.
I guess origin of species is out of date already? So it’s back to God and 6 days and the garden of Eden.
And both special and general relativity must also be well beyond their sell by dates. So I gu
…So I guess it’s back to Newton, or maybe epicycles?
Martin,
That “Crête” is located in Greenland.
Bill Illis
…
Page 98 says….
…
” In 1986 we had sufficient information about the highest point of the inland ice, Summit: 72.59 N,37.64 W; 3240 m above sea level; annual mean air temperature -32 C;”
…
I added the bold for emphasis.
…
You are citing 28 year old data.
What’s wrong with 28 year old data?
It is much more reliable than more recent politicised pseudo-data from the current mob of activists calling themselves climate scientists.
See my note 10:31 AM above. You are comparing apples with oranges, so the age of ther oranges isn’t really that interesting.
Phlogiston is right. Data is data. It doesn’t change with time — unless you’re GISS or a similar government agency. Then the past gets cooler while the present gets hotter. All in a good cause, you understand…
Ean, nice compilation of the problems with the large lags of CO2 after the temperature drop into a new glacial period.
I doubt that the final reduction of the CO2 drop is caused by biolife in the oceans. If that was the case, the change in δ13C would be much higher than the few tenths of a per mil change over glacials and interglacials indicated in a few publications and positive with decreasing CO2.
I haven’t found any data from ice cores for the last glaciation, but there is more information about the last deglaciation:
http://web.atmos.ucla.edu/~gruber/teaching/papers_to_read/koehler_gbc_05.pdf
That shows an upward change of a few tenths of a per mil δ13C with CO2 and temperature, which indicates that oceanic processes are dominant in the deglaciation…
The latest information about ice core is not available on the NOAA website but maybe the following person knows more about it:
http://www.cmcc.it/it/events/seminar-an-ice-core-view-to-changes-in-the-global-carbon-cycle-in-the-past
Ferdinand, you need to have a look at my post “What’s up with the bomb model”. What applies there for 14C also applies to 13C. But I have to admit I am not on top of the d13C data, partly because since I became aware that it is all corrupted by oceanic exchange processes, it is sadly never going to give a clear answer.
Euan’s article is very clear and informative — something I don’t see often.
Ice core data is much less reliable, much more problematic, and needs much more careful correction than some people here (notably, Ferdinand) previously asserted.
Nevertheless, the same data prove without any doubt that the CO2 concentration in atmosphere is not a substantial driver of temperature or climate changes but rather depends on them, and that some resonant combination of several cyclical processes on the cosmic scale, including Solar activity, orbital variations, and Earth’s axis precession, are mainly responsible for the observed changes in temperatures, which are currently well within their natural range.
Maybe we have to look how the permafrost is moving, from high latitude to a lower latitude and vica versa. . Once at the lower latitude it will be much more sensitive to warming by orbital or other phenomenon. On top of that the permafrost has reached its maximum quantity. This can explain the rapid change of the termination phase. It might explain the slower cooling when it is approaching the high latitude limit with it’s minimum quantity.
During the warming phase, termination, it would mean alignment of CH4 with temperature.
Whether the lag is 800 years or 8,000 years is not as important as the fact that it is a LAG.
In the real world cause precedes effect. While the strong correlation between temperature and CO2 concentration does not prove that temperature is the driver (correlation does not imply causation) it does prove that CO2 is not the driver. Nations that base their energy policies on the idea that CO2 drives climate are deluding themselves while wasting trillions of dollars.
If you want a mechanism for the cooling lag being greater than the warming lag think about the barrier that greatly extended sea ice coverage provides to gas transfer into the oceans.
The only thing that is conclusive after reading the article and many of the comments is that there is nothing that is settled, nothing that is conclusive.
That is not what is frustrating, and actually what it should be, science needs debate and conflict as part of the process towards reaching “settled” science. What is frustrating is that one-sided simplistic opinions of activist scientists who claim to forecast the future are used to short-circuit getting to a reasonable level of “settled” science. Actually it is surprising these activist scientists are taken seriously at all.
Agreed, but amidst all of the data that now exists it is possible to begin to zero in on “a truth” that is sadly a million miles away from where we are currently told THE truth lies.
With that I have to depart (though not leave altogether) this excellent thread. Thanks to all for many really good quality comments. Sorry I can’t pick up on them all. And also for much positive feedback.
Its been useful for me to air a number of potentially contentious points of view which no doubt someone may want to shoot down in future.
Here’s a tongue in cheek answer: Frozen poop accumulated for tens of thousands of years melts and washes in to the ocean. The poop at the lowest latitude melts first and dumps a lot of nitrogen into the ocean. Cyanobacteria no longer have an advantage being able to fix nitrogen. So the phytoplankton grow and respire. Without restoration of alkalinity by nitrogen fixation, ocean pH begins to fall and alkalinity is consumed, literally, and falling pH releases CO2. As plants are able to grow better, they reclaim frozen lands. Snow doesn’t accumulate as well on land with trees due to thermal IR radiating from conifer leaves / needles melting and sublimation of snow in tree limbs. As land warms, more nitrogen washes into streams and into the ocean. As the trees march northward, more land melts and more nitrogen runs into the sea. More CO2 released. It’s a runaway effect.
I was in Steamboat Springs for a conference on protein structure and function in early April almost 30 years ago (crap! was it that long ago??). High up on the ski runs at 9 or 10 thousand feet, the snow was incredibly nice for someone used to Sierra cement. At the end of the day, I skied down to the condos where it was much warmer. There were melt ponds on the snow and a very rich atmosphere of aromatic, nitrogen rich and sulfur-rich compounds released from thawed doggie doo doo. It was a winter’s worth of dog walking coming to fruition.
On the serious side, I’m thinking nitrogen runoff into the ocean might be the real reason for the pH drop in the ocean. Nitrogen is a limiting nutrient in lower latitude marine waters. Nitrogen fixation elevates pH. With significant agricultural runoff flowing into the ocean, N becomes less limiting. Consequently, cyanobacteria no longer have the same competitive advantage being able to fix nitrogen. They just don’t need to do so as much. As C drops out as diatom skeletons, alkalinity needs to be replaced, and nitrogen fixation is thought play a major role. As pH falls, alkalinity is also lost as CO2, which eventually returns to the atmosphere. It seems much more reasonable to me agriculture is the real culprit in ocean “acidification”, not elevated CO2. Carbon gets eaten.
Some of us are trying to become fluent in foreign languages, so let me ask you- is your name pronounced Hoseur in Canadian?
Bien sûr! It is far better to be the Hoser than the Hosee. ;->
Thanks for that perspective, an interesting take.
I have noted recent papers seem to obfuscate the clear tendency of nitrogen fixation to raise pH and thereby increase alkalinity (doesn’t need to increase total dissolved inorganic carbon). It’s just basic chemistry. Apparently, they are circling the wagons to handle this issue as well.
N2 + 8 H+ + 8 e− → 2 NH3 + H2
Nice work Euan. You’ve shown one of the great problems with the [CO2] driver hypothesis. Namely the cause cannot occur after the effect. I suspect the lags have to do with oceanic processes via Henry’s Law, but I could be wrong.
Meanwhile Bill Illis has a nice graph further up that shows Milankovitch Cycles and solar insolation. It seems to me this graph captures the Mid-Brunhes Event where the Ice Age Cycles suddenly, at least in geologic terms, developed a greater amplitude. You’ll note that at that time around 400 ky ago there was an interglacial even though insolation was not very impressive. Again, the Mid-Brunhes event presents us with a problem. Why did the 100 ky Ice Age Cycle now develop a greater amplitude?
Also of note is the fact that many of the ocean studies are “orbitally tuned” to the Milankovitch Cycles. My take on this is that due to the extreme difficulty of counting layers in oceanic ooze drill core it’s easier to line them up with calculated Milankovitch Cycles. Some years ago Richard Muller and his team at Devils Hole cave produced data that contradicted the insolation theory. Devils Hole cave is very interesting since the calcite has been hand dated and is not orbitally tuned. Anyway, those are some thoughts to contemplate.
I understand why the geochemists tune their data to what is believed to be a valid theory. But therein lies the danger that it all becomes self fulfilling. There is enough miss match between Milankovitch and Vostok dT to make me believe that orbital cycles are exerting loose, not absolute control. It would be good to have Clive Best’s comments on this.
” My take on this is that due to the extreme difficulty of counting layers in oceanic ooze drill core …”
That is an understatement to put it mildly. It is impossible, since there are no varves due to bioturbation. Varve counts is only ever possible in oxygen-free areas where there are no macroscopic bottom-living organisms, and often not even then.
The connection between the earths tilt and glaciation is not very clear so far as I can see,there are more than four oscilation in the tilt graph over the the same time period as the last four ice ages.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/tilt_graph.html
http://s16.postimg.org/63v3fs8xx/Last4_Ice_Ages_Milankovitch.png
The glacial-interglacial wave train over the Pleistocene is an example of a weakly periodically forced nonlinear oscillator. No one should be surprised by the complexity of the relationship between the several forcing frequencies (Milankovich orbital cycles) and the emergent temperature wavetrain.
A well studied analogy (always a good place to look) with a more conveniently observable timescale, is complex tidal oscillation in locations with complex coastal geometry.
Most coastal locations get two high and low tides per day. However in some semi enclosed bays tidal oscillation becomes chaotic and can include much higher frequency oscillation with periods down to a few minutes only. This paper studies an example of an inlet with a narrow connection to the sea, where the tidal forcing(s) interact with coastline, bottom topology and friction (negative feedback) to produce chaotic and high frequency tidal oscillation within the inlet:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/1520-0485(2002)032%3C0870:CT%3E2.0.CO%3B2
This would appear to be a suitable analogy to the complex sawtooth Pleistocene temperature wavetrain under multiple Milankovich forcings and containing feedback sand friction.
Last line should be “feedbacks and friction”.
The paper is called “Chaotic tides”.
David Socrates says
Lastly, Mr dbstealey says that CO2 follows temperature, however that hasn’t happened in the past 15 years or so. Global T is flat, but CO2 continues to rise at 2 ppm/yr. He can’t explain that.
He doesn’t have to explain the 2 ppm annual rise – you have to explain the 10 ppm seasonal change!
The Mauna Lao observatory record shows that, each year, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere are 3% (10 ppm) lower in Aug/Sept/Oct than they are in Feb/Mar/Apr. This happens every year without fail. I’m assuming that no-one would argue that the 3% CO2 changes are causing the seasons to happen. This means that, in the short term at least, seasonal temperature changes are causing changes in CO2 concentrations. This is not correlation, it is definitely causation and CO2 is the dependent variable.
Yes, average annual CO2 continues to rise by 2 ppm/yr … presumably from fossil fuel emissions … but of course, average annual temperatures have not increased for 18 years. In other words, no GHG warming effect is currently visible.
So, let’s summarize … CO2 follows temperature in the historical ice core data and CO2 also follows seasonal temperature changes each and every year. Plus, no global warming for 18 years despite a 9% increase in atmospheric CO2. In the face of these devastatingly inconvenient facts, the theory of man-made CO2 causing catastrophic temperature rises lacks credibility to more and more people every day.
The 10 ppm seasonal change is pretty simple to explain
..
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2012
Starting at 2011.4 CO2 drops due to the fact that spring in the NH brings forth the vegitation that lied dormant thru the winter. Trees sprout leaves, lawns that were brown turn green, and all these plants begin to take up CO2 in the bright sunshine.
CO2 levels drop until about 2011.8 when autumn hits the NH. In Autumn the leaves turn color and stop photosynthesis, die, and fall to the ground
..
From 2011.8 until 2012.4 winter is occurring in the NH. All of the leaves that fell from the trees decay and release CO2. Additionally a lot of humans in the NH usues fossil fuels to heat their homes. From the graph you can see the rise in CO2 levels
..
The cycle begins again in 2012.4
..
You may say that when it is winter in the NH, it is summer in the SH. Yes, that is true, but the land area in the NH exceeds that of the SH and as a result the annual cycle of CO2 uptake/release favors the NH.
You post “Yes, average annual CO2 continues to rise by 2 ppm/yr ” Good. Then asks Mr Dbstealey why CO2 is not following T
…
Glad to see that you agree that CO2 is the dependent variable. BTW, you missed the bit about the larger southern hemisphere oceans out-gassing CO2 in the SH summer just as photosynthesis slows down in the NH. The point is that temperature is changing first!
With regard to the 2 PPM annual increase (probably due to fossil fuel consumption) – according to your classic CAGM theory, it should be driving up temperature. Unfortunately it isn’t … and people have noticed!
Bernard Lodge,
Thanks for that clear explanation. It’s true. Changing temperature causes changing CO2 levels, but the alarmist crowd cannot simply agree to that fact. If they did they would be admitting that they’ve been looking at “carbon” backward the whole time. Their narrative would be deconstructed.
Can’t have that. So you will get endless arguments, like this:
Then asks Mr Dbstealey why CO2 is not following T
See? He just cannot admit to what is clear to everyone: T causes CO2. In other words: CO2 does follow temperature. All the time.
That cause-and-effect relationship is clearly visible on all time scales from years, to hundreds of millennia. I have posted at least a dozen charts from numerous sources, showing that cause-and-effect.
But no one has ever been able to produce a credible data set showing that CO2 is the cause of ∆T. Empirical evidence only shows one kind of observation: CO2 causes T. Not vice-versa.
Sockrates cannot accept that simple fact. If he did, his head would explode! Cognitive dissonance, you know. It’s a big problem in the alarmist crowd.☺
“CO2 does follow temperature. All the time.”
…
Here is a chart that shows you what global temperature does on a monthly basis.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/clip_image0041.jpg
As you can see from the chart, global temperature rises from April thru August, falling from then until February when it begins to rise again.
Now examine the graphs of CO2
..
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2011.4/to:2012.3
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2010.4/to:2011.3
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2009.4/to:2010.3
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2008.4/to:2009.3
and so on.
…
The common response of CO2 is to fall from April until August, then climb from August to the next April
…
Temperatures are rising from April until August, and they fall from August onward.
So, from the real world data, you can see that CO2 rises when global T drops, and CO2 falls when global T rises.
Socks,
I woulod try to educate you on the difference between an anomaly chart and a trend chart. But I know my limitations. You cannot be educated. Your mind is closed to any reality that doesn’t fit your True Belief.
Everything you post is an attempt to argue with a multitude of observations showing that ∆T causes ∆CO2. But you cannot produce the one thing that would make your argument credible: you cannot post a WFT chart showing that CO2 controls temperature. Thus, you lose the debate. Again.
Dbstealey
..
Why don’t you address the data I posted.?
Neither of the charts I posted are an anomaly chart or a trend chart.
Correction…
..
This is the correct link
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2011/to:2013
or just replace 2011 with 2012 in my post
Soxie says:
Neither of the charts I posted are an anomaly chart or a trend chart.
Then what were they? Fever charts tracking your weird world view?
The only charts that matter are the ones constructed from the WoodForTrees databases. I have posted numerous charts proving conclusively that ∆T causes ∆CO2. But you? You can’t find anything to contradict that.
So you deflect, and you post misinformation, and you emit your baseless opinions — anything but posting a WFT chart showing that CO2 controls T.
You can’t find such a chart. Know why? Because any such effect is just too minuscule to measure.
There it is in a nutshell, soxie: your scary ‘carbon’ is a pitifully small, 3rd-order forcing that can be completely disregarded for all practical purposes. CO2 just doesn’t matter, at either current or projected concentrations.
Refute that, if you can! The way to do it is to post a chart showing what you claim: that CO2 controls temperature. Good luck with that. Instead, I predict more deflection, and more misinformation. Because that’s all soxie has.
When you can address the point I’ve made in this post….
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/27/vostok-and-the-8000-year-time-lag/#comment-1826391
…
“Then what were they?”
…
If you look at them you might understand what they are.
“The only charts that matter are the ones constructed from the WoodForTrees databases. ”
I emphatically disagree. Calendar days are not aligned to the “thermal” day.
Hope you understand that I rarely click on your links. This is no exception.
The link comes from this site.
…
But, I can understand your paranoia, you never know what virus this site has
Seems there’s no limit how low you can go. If you really believe you will get a virus from WUWT, the answer is easy: don’t post.
But if that’s a bogus answer, then you’re just being nasty. Have some class for a change.
You can get a virus without posting. Didn’t you know that?
[Reply: No one is forcing you to be here. ~ mod.]
MiCro,
It’s not the same thing. I just said that everything in science is measurable. An exception is when the signal is below the noise level.
AGW has never been measured. I want to know the specific fraction of AGW, out of total global warming. What’s the percentage?
But there are no verifiable, testable measurments like that.
That means that AGW is really just a conjecture. It is based on the notion that changes in CO2 are the cause of changes in temperature.
If that is true, all I’m saying is, use the same databases I used, when I showed several different examples of ∆T causing a subsequent ∆CO2. If that is to be negated or falsified, someone must be able to show the same number of examples of T changes being caused by CO2. But there are no such observations.
I’m saying use the same databases to solve the same problem. Is CO2 a cause, or and effect? The answer is in the data: it is an effect.
It is a mistake to present the Vostok CO2 values as if they represent the actual CO2 in the atmosphere at that time. Z. Jaworowski, the authority on such core sampling, considered the trauma of core cutting and retrieval, and estimated that there is 30–50% CO2 losses in this process.
The 190 ppm CO2 shown as the glacial CO2 concentrations would be fatal as plants stop growing at such low ppm of CO2.
However, back calculating losses of 30–50% gives us CO2 in the range of 270–380 ppm, which means the plants on the planet would have beeb able to grow during the glacial period. And, better yet, the 290 ppm CO2 reported for the last interglacial CO2 peak would back calculate to 410–580 ppm CO2, which means that our current CO2 is currently lower than it was during the last interglacial, and has been alarmingly low, down to 290 several times, during the last 200 years. This kind of calculation is crucial if we are going to discuss the CO2 in the atmosphere in the past.
It would behoove us to realize that CO2 has been much higher than now almost all of the time and the world has clearly been thriving and benefitting from abundant plant food, CO2.
higley7, let the late Jaworowski rest in peace, together with his theories of the loss of CO2 in ice cores…
His theories were already refuted in 1996 by the work of Etheridge e.a. on three very high accumulating ice cores at Law Dome: Etheridge measured CO2 in the pores top down from the surface to the full closed bubbles at closing depth. CO2 levels in the last open pores and in the fully closed ice bubbles are exactly the same. There is even an overlap of 20 years between CO2 in the ice cores and the direct measurements in the atmosphere at the South Pole of the same average gas age:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/law_dome_sp_co2.jpg
Any migration in (coastal) ice cores is minimal and in the much colder inland ice cores not measurable at all.
What closed the door for me is that Jaworowski said that ice cores CO2 escapes via cracks in the ice caused by drilling and decompression. While cracks occur and mostly cause too high CO2 levels (via contamination by drilling fluid), can anyone show me how CO2 migrates from 180 ppmv within the ice core towards the outside air which contains 395 ppmv CO2? See further:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/jaworowski.html
When I was doing my Ph.D. computers had not been in use for a long time. I remember many lectures in mathematical physics, trying to model real events where the equations derived were non-linear partial differential equations. Since these could not be solved analytically, assumptions were made that certain parameters were small (with very little justification) so that the non linear terms could be ignored, leaving a system that could be solved analytically. Needless to say, the solutions to the equations bore little resemblance to the actual data they were attempting to model.
Global warming seems to be stuck with a similar type of problem. However, the problem here is not a lack of computing power or the inability to solve non-linear equations. It is an inability to collect accurate data. So the way this has been dealt with in the past is to assume that the data that can not be easily measured or for which no historical data are available can be ignored. This includes things such as cloud cover variation that can change very rapidly and can have very large effects. Sunspots are not included because we have no way of modeling them, even though they follow a 22 year cycle. If you can’t measure CO2 global variation, you assume efficient mixing and use a single measurement from the Keck Observatory. If you don’t have measurements of temperature you interpolate from what you have. It is little wonder that the climate models have not done a good job of forecasting/projecting reality.
Reblogged this on Norah4you's Weblog and commented:
norah4you
December 28, 2014 at 7:26 am
First of all:
THE WORST FALSE FIGURES of CO2-levels is the ones from Mauna Loa!!!!
All vulcanos send out CO2 -all lifetime and ever after.
The figures reading for CO2 on Mauna Loa is measured in order to know WHEN next outbreak might/will be close. Not to measure CO2 from air.
The CO2-readings on Mauna Loa as well as on every other important vulcano on land gives figures that goes from low to high depending on the pressure within the Vulcano. The CO2 readings that are in the “wind direction” is to help the other instruments!
What the so called experts CO2-believers forgotten to tell you all is that the above mentioned FACTS, is not the only problem in their so called models…… they have taken figures that never could tell anything at all re. CO2- value up in atmosphere or air, then they used three types of media value (!!!!) not only that – they also have “corrected them”…….
When the fox counts the chickens
Btw. How do I know which data the CO2-believers used for models? One of IPCC:s most refered “experts” was kind enough 🙂 to send me his raw data same year wattsup blogg started !!!! He thought I was on his side.
Well little did he know about CO2 and Natural forces. Even less about me. Sending such stuff to me of all people in the world!!!!
norah4you
The CO2 data collected at Mauna Loa indeed are on a huge volcano that sometimes spews CO2. If the wind is from the vents, that gives a large (4 to 8 ppmv) variability in the measurements. These data are marked and not used for daily to yearly averaging. Some of the data are slightly depleted of CO2 (-4 ppmv) due to upwind conditions from the plantations in the valley, these too are marked and not used for daily to yearly averages. All these (raw hourly) data are still available at the NOAA website, without any correction or manipulation whatsoever (except in the case of problems with the calibration gases). Here a comparison between Mauna Loa and the South Pole data for 2008: raw data + “cleaned” daily and monthly averages.
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/co2_mlo_spo_raw_select_2008.jpg
Mind the scale!
It doesn’t make more than 0.1 ppmv difference if you include or exclude the outliers at Mauna Loa and the South Pole has no nearby volcanoes or vegetation: the CO2 levels are essentially the same, only lags Mauna Loa with about a year.
But what you aren’t aware of is that it does make much more difference than what you say. the NOAA figures aren’t the same as the origin data that the volcano indicators – the true readings – has measured. That was one of the first information one of the AGW-believers of IPCC:s sent me with information for each reading of what he had corrected….. 🙂
So your assumtion of 0.1 ppmv difference is way out of the correct differences…..
only one of many “corrected” figures for the models…..
same goes for the information some of the so called experts here in Sweden earlier today sent to media telling everyone that this summer was the hotest (way from the truth) since 1860…. but the figures from 1860 to 1991 had been corrected long ago and the corrected values were the ones the so called scientist here had used.
Swedish text: Från Forskning och Framsteg: ”Vår rekonstruktion av vinter- och vårtemperaturens variationer över ett halvt årtusende visas i bild 1. Mätningarna efter 1860 är korrigerade för den artificiella uppvärmning som orsakats av staden Stockholms tillväxt, så att kurvan visar de mer naturliga förändringarna.” Referens Forskning och Framsteg nr 5 2008, 500 års väder.
From Swedish Science Journal “Forskning och Framsteg”: “Our reconstruction of the winter and vårtemperaturens variations over half a millennium shown in Figure 1. The measurements for 1860 are corrected for the artificial warming caused by the city of Stockholm’s growth, so that the curve shows the more natural change.” Source: Forskning och Framsteg no 5 2008, Article: 500 years weather.
One other thing you don’t know is that I was to contact Swedish scholars working at Tema Vatten Linköpings University the correct temperature and Ph-value as well as chemical analysis up to 1990. When? Back in 1995. Why? the Lab that had analysed samples taken 1 resp 3 meter above sea/ground level as well as 1 m, 5 meters and 10 meters under waterlevel (in case it was deeper 3 meters above sea-bottom), that Lab was to be closed down and it had worked together with my father from 1957 so he had access to them and had heard that the so called experts had a model-study going on….. the answer from the so called scholars were that it was easier to use assumed data from intrapolering/extra polering from 1991 “values”
Don’t try the 0.1 ppmv with me. do it with someone who haven’t seen how the different measured values during a day has been used by NOAA et others.
It is impossible to solve scientific problems or to intelligently discuss the problems in question when there are dozens and dozens of basic fundamental errors concerning mechanisms, in every ruddy field (which explains why there are piles and piles of anomalies and paradoxes in every ruddy field.)
The source of the earth’s atmospheric CO2 and water is deep earth CH4. As the earth’s core solidifies CH4 is extruded at very, very, high pressure. If you are interested in the hundred or so observations, data, and logical arguments (Gold lists paradox and anomaly after anomaly that disappear/are explained by the deep CH4 hypothesis as opposed to the late veneer theory for the explanation for the earth’s atmosphere and water on the planet) that support the assertion that the source of the earth’s atmospheric CO2, water, and the majority of the liquid petroleum on the planet is deep earth CH4 , read the late Nobel prize winning astrophysics, Thomas Gold’s book “The Deep Hot Biosphere”: The myth of fossil fuels. Gold’s book includes an entire book of anomalies/paradoxes that are explained by the deep CH4 theory.
The extruded CH4 is pushed through the mantel to a depth of around 100 km to 150 km. The high pressure extruded CH4 is the reason why there are continents and mountains. (The continents float on the mantel.) The extruded CH4 from the core drives plate tectonics.
The separating ocean floor (the high pressure extruded CH4 is the reason why the ocean floor is separating) carries the CH4 to edge of the continents where it collects at higher levels which explains why there are bands of mountains on the edges of the continents and why there are massive commercial oil fields at the edge of continents and at the intersection of continental crusts such as Saudi Arabia.
The glacial/interglacial cycle is not caused by changes of insolation at 65N. Milankovitch cycle Problems (William: In your face theory anomalies which indicate that insolation at 65N does not and cannot physically cause the glacial/interglacial cycle.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles
The glacial/interglacial cycle is caused by a massive cyclic change to the sun which modulates the geomagnetic field. The effect of the cyclic solar change is dependent on the earth’s orbital configuration when the massive solar change occurs. If you are interested in how an abrupt change to the geomagnetic field affects planetary cloud cover, read The Chilling Stars: A Cosmic View of Climate Change by Henrik Svensmark and Nigel Calder. The process/mechanisms are reversible.
The geomagnetic field intensity is now dropping 10 times faster at 5% per decade rather than 5% per century.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-s-impending-magnetic-flip/
http://sciences.blogs.liberation.fr/home/files/Courtillot07EPSL.pdf
http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~rtp1/BardPapers/responseCourtillotEPSL07.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2010EO510001/pdf
http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/416/1/gubbinsd4.pdf
The past solar change is the reason why there was an increase recent in atmospheric CO2 and why the planet warmed. If that assertion is correct, atmospheric CO2 will drop due to the solar cycle 24 abrupt change to the sun and the planet will significantly cool.
Greenland ice temperature, last 11,000 years determined from ice core analysis, Richard Alley’s paper.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/GISP2%20TemperatureSince10700%20BP%20with%20CO2%20from%20EPICA%20DomeC.gif
As Salby noted, the cyclically high CO2 is found in the southern hemisphere which then spreads to the northern hemisphere rather than starts in northern hemisphere which does not make sense based on anthropogenic emissions being the cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2. The deep earth CH4 is very deficient in carbon 13 which as Gold explains in his book is the reason why ‘natural gas’ is very, very deficient in C13 (natural gas’ deficiency in C13 cannot be explained by the fossil theory). There are microbes that convert the CH4 to CO2.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/21/settled-science-the-ipccs-premature-consensus-is-demonstrated-by-the-orbiting-carbon-observatory/
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
– Life on the Mississippi, by Mark Twain
Greenland ice temperature, last 11,000 years determined from ice core analysis, Richard Alley’s paper.
Not quite the last 11,000 years, only up until 1855, the last 160years are missing!
Once you realize that the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is not the cause of the last seven glaciations you need to ask what really caused the temperature variations. The most plausible process is Milankoviotch cycles. Here is a well researched summary by Gail Combs supporting this notion:
http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/climate-is-not-difficult/#comment-429231
Gail’s comments resonate with me because the glaciations resemble the output of a “Relaxation Oscillator”, a highly non-linear process. When the oscillation starts it has high positive feedback so it switches rapidly to another meta-stable state. Gail explains such a mechanism in terms of ice cover around latitude 65 degrees. On reflection this also explains why the lag should be longer when the Earth is cooling than when it is warming.
Can anyone point me to data showing CO2 level above 400ppm?
Try this:
http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/9/25/saupload_2___450mm_yrs_of_temps.jpg
Of course this won’t help you if you are an eco-creationist and don’t believe geology.