Story submitted by Eric Worrall
British Botanists conducting a Summer survey of Scotland’s tallest mountain, Ben Nevis, have been stunned to find evidence of recently formed multi-year ice fields, areas of compacted snow, some of which weigh hundreds of tons.
According to the BBC;
“Hazards common in arctic and alpine areas but described as “extremely unusual” in the UK during the summer have been found on Ben Nevis.
A team of climbers and scientists investigating the mountain’s North Face said snowfields remained in many gullies and upper scree slopes.
On these fields, they have come across compacted, dense, ice hard snow call neve.
Neve is the first stage in the formation of glaciers, the team said.”
The team has also encountered sheets of snow weighing hundreds of tonnes and tunnels and fissures known as bergschrunds.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-28885119
This is how ice ages start – a buildup of snow which does not melt in the Summer, which leads to a positive feedback loop, as the growing ice sheet reflects more and more sunlight back into space.
From James Abbott on August 25, 2014 at 11:26 am:
Go to: http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/08/did-greenland-w-antarctic-ice-sheet.html
Unlike you with your drive-by “Trust me!” posting style, here is presented the name of the paper with authors and with the link to the paper, and even the abstract.
From the Hockey Schtick article, go there for the many links:
Contrary to what you are trying to portray, any loss noticed so far has been so slight the projections place us far into the next planetary glaciation phase before it could be a noticeable issue, and of course it wouldn’t be an issue then.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 11:26 am
1) Define “rapidly”.
2) Radar altimetry data are notoriously hard to interpret.
3) There is nothing to worry about. It would take millennia of elevated temperatures for the southern dome of the Greenland ice sheet to melt. Not going to happen before the onset of the next glaciation. It didn’t happen during the Eemian interglacial, which lasted thousands of years longer than the Holocene and was a lot warmer. The WAIS and the Antarctic Peninsula are being affected by under ice volcanic eruption.
Rewind – I am not suggesting imminent catastrophe as kadaka (KD Knoebel) and sturgishooper jump to.
The researchers’ words are her own but even she does not do that.
My point was that to extrapolate a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish mountains with an ice age is plainly wrong.
And we can argue about rates of change forever and a day – but the facts remain that mass loss is taking place in the 2 largest ice caps and most glaciers are retreating.
Raising the spectre of an ice age is a long-ago worn out trick. There is no evidence that it is happening and no likelihood of it happening for tens of thousands of years short of some form of catastrophe that none of us can now know about.
That’s only ~400mi from the global warming fraudsters at East Anglia. Maybe they could take a ‘fact finding’ bus trip or something.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm
Your assertion is not a fact but an out and out lie. The by far largest ice “cap”, ie “sheet” to scientists, is not melting but growing. The EAIS is gaining not losing mass.
The fact is that even at the highest possible rate of loss for the Greenland Ice Sheet it would take thousands of years for the southern dome to melt. The northern dome doesn’t melt even in the longest, hottest interglacials.
It’s not worn out to mention the coming glaciation. Nobody knows if it will happen in 3000 or 30,000 years, but it is coming. No amount of man-made GHGs can stop it. No special catastrophe is needed. Just the summer insolation at 65 degrees north latitude to return to the level at which snow fails to melt completely. This is the norm. Glacial phases last many times longer than interglacials.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm
“Rewind – I am not suggesting imminent catastrophe”
If not, then about what are you concerned?
No imminent catastrophe; no worry. No accelerated sea level rise, no extreme weather, no crop disasters or any of the other hypothetical catastrophes supposedly associated with non-existent CACA.
James Abbott –
No one is “predicting” or “extrapolating” anything, so you are just clutching at straw men here. It was simply pointed out that this would be how an ice age would begin. Simple fact.
Furthermore, your claim that “most of the world’s glaciers are in retreat” is incorrect. Many have stabilized or begun to grow again. The Antarctic Ice Cap is gaining mass. Cooling does appear to be underway as well. Where it will lead is anyone’s guess.
sturgishooper can I suggest you go back and actually read what I said – which was that I agree the evidence is that the EAIS is growing – so how can I be telling a lie when I am agreeing with you ?
The point though is that net, the continent is losing ice mass, and so is Greenland and these are contributing to sea level rise.
milodonharlani is not concerned about sea level rise apparently – do you live well away from the coast ?
sturgishooper you advance the coming glaciation, Again, I agree with you that it will happen (unless human induced warming is so extreme as to stop it) due to the natural cycles we know about in relation to the Earth’s tilt and orbit.
However, you are very free and easy with your time-frames. Yes tens of thousand of years is the likely horizon for the next glaciation but – and I really do suggest you read the original article – a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish highlands do not provide any guidance re a glaciation in tens of thousands of years from now, or for that matter starting in the short term, which is what some of the contributors in this threat have pointed to.
Bruce Cobb you claim it is incorrect to say that the majority of glaciers are retreating. In that case, please tell us, with references, what proportion of glaciers worldwide are:
1. Advancing
2, Stable
3. Retreating
Reblogged this on Antipodean59's Blog and commented:
Another blow to those involved in the financial rort that is aka Climate Change
Of Course, once again the site here relies on deception and misrepresentation in order to try and prove that climate change is not happening. IF you actually read the article being quoted you quickly see that the article isn’t really about the climate at all but is relating the story of a research project into recording the wildlife and the fauna that can be found on Scotland’s Ben Nevis North Face. AT no time does the article ever claim NOR does it hint at the possibility that a new “glacier” is forming. In fact the article SPECIFICALLY mentions that the snow-fields are SEMI-PERMANENT.
So how does one account for this new snow-pack? Simple, a few seasons of snow not fully melting at the TOP elevations. AND a few seasons does not make a difference in the trends towards climate change. SORRY boys but if you put your hopes on this article to destroy the REALITY of climate change, you are simply not going to get your wish.
The science from all areas of the globe support the reality of climate change, supports the cause of the climate change as being man-made, and supports the reality that this is not a simple issue of a few seasons of weather that goes against the climate change models.
A lot of fuss about nothing. As several people have pointed out snow in the gullies on the North face of Ben Nevis (and some other Scottish mountains) is normal. It is there most years. I have seen it myself often. Now if it ever disappears completely for several contiguous years…..
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm
“sturgishooper can I suggest you go back and actually read what I said – which was that I agree the evidence is that the EAIS is growing – so how can I be telling a lie when I am agreeing with you ?
The point though is that net, the continent is losing ice mass, and so is Greenland and these are contributing to sea level rise.”
You said that the two “ice caps” were losing mass. The Greenland, Antarctic Peninsula & West Antarctic Ice Sheets are possibly losing mass, but if so only because of volcanic activity. Sea ice is setting records all around Antarctica. The amount of ice in all other ice sheets & glaciers (also rivers, lakes, streams, ponds, etc.) pales in comparison with the EAIS, which contains some 55% of the planet’s fresh water. The WAIS holds about another six percent.
“milodonharlani is not concerned about sea level rise apparently – do you live well away from the coast ?”
I do live near the coast about half the year. Sea level rise is not a concern. Its rate has slowed lately. If Prince Albert Gore isn’t worried, why should I be?
“sturgishooper you advance the coming glaciation, Again, I agree with you that it will happen (unless human induced warming is so extreme as to stop it) due to the natural cycles we know about in relation to the Earth’s tilt and orbit.”
Any warming from human GHGs will never be enough to stop the next glaciation. There is no evidence of man-made warming, however. Models predicting it have been laughably wrong. Measured, “adjusted” GASTA (despite cooking the books) is now outside even the error bars of the vast majority of GCMs.
“However, you are very free and easy with your time-frames. Yes tens of thousand of years is the likely horizon for the next glaciation but – and I really do suggest you read the original article – a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish highlands do not provide any guidance re a glaciation in tens of thousands of years from now, or for that matter starting in the short term, which is what some of the contributors in this threat have pointed to.”
It is a fact that thousands of years would be required to melt even the most vulnerable part of the Greenland Ice Sheet, as happened about 400,000 & 800,000 years ago. The next glaciation could come in anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands of years. No one knows, although we can project Milankovitch cycles far into the future. I’m not free & easy. Science simply doesn’t know. If you extrapolate from the past 3000 years of global cooling, you soon get back to a big ice age. If you look at orbital eccentricity, it could be tens of thousands of years.
Brian
August 25, 2014 at 3:54 pm
The climate changes all the time. There is no evidence to support the proposition that humans are responsible for observed climatic changes of the past century or since 1950 or 1877, whatever start date you cherry pick. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened in the past 100 years to support the contention that climate change is primarily due to human activities. Science can’t even conclude whether the net effect of human influence, if any, is to warm or cool the planet, but in any case is so negligible as to be unmeasurable.
Mean 1977, year of the big shift in the PDO.
Anthony: The new format:
The font size for names is too large, and font for comments is too small.
I don’t mind struggling to read the names but it is too much for the meant of the messages.
Thanks
Crispin in Waterloo
To Milodonharlani-
it is simple fact that the climate change that is occurring now is NOT a simple action of normal climate shifts. In fact the science is rather straightforward that this period of shift is Anthropogenic.
See Link @ur momisugly http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html
AND rather than being so negligible ass to be unmeasurable, you might want to look at the following scientific sources as well as the academic sources that disagree with you on that fact.
See link @ur momisugly http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
The data is in fact settled that humans are the primary source of the climate’s change and that the present change is NOT in the normal range of a normal climate swing that does indeed happen from time to time.
I’d like to know if neve formed during the 70’s. you know, back when the alarmists were screeching ice age.
I think you’ll find that this has happened before in the past 30 years and that what is ‘multiyear ice’ actually was a couple of years old and then melted.
Neve forms quickly in Scotland due to the frequent oscillation of temperatures on the mountains around the zero point. Their altitude means that below-zero is frequent in winter and early spring, but their proximity to the Gulf Stream also sees regular SW gales raise temperatures markedly. It is precisely this freeze-thaw cycle feature which makes Scotland in general and Ben Nevis in particular such a mecca for ice climbing in winter. Furthermore, the strong winds to be found in the Scottish mountains can concentrate snow fall into gullies and corries to the lee side of the prevailing winds, which can often see 20ft of snow ending up on one aspect whilst almost none at all on the opposite one. These features explain why Scotland is susceptible to small pockets of unmelted snow in the summers of snowy winters.
Winter 2014 was almost unprecedented in the past 30 years for the amounts of snow which fell on the Scottish mountains, with snow on up to 100 consecutive days from late November through to early March. As a result, it is hardly surprising that this year sees snow in the NE facing gullies in August. Widespread snow was found even in corries on the Isle of Skye in mid summer in 1994, another season where unusually large snowfalls took place (the only year other than 2014 I am aware of when ski lifts remained closed some days not due to lack of snow but due to the lifts being buried).
So, I would revisit this story in 2015 and 2016 and see if the ‘multi year snow patches’ are in fact multi-year or whether they are merely neve from a particularly snowy winter which melts when the subsequent ones are closer to the long-term mean in terms of snowfall.
It is, however, the case, that Ben Nevis, Ben MacDhui and Braeriach are the places to look for signs of a return of glaciers in Scotland, they combining altitude, NE-facing corries and gullies free from direct sunlight for months in winter and levels of precipitation sufficient to trigger permanent snowpacks in periods of unusually snowy winters, unusually cool summers or both.
[Altitude (of Scotland, or of the mountains in Scotland?) or Latitude? Or both? .mod]
wws August 24, 2014 at 6:47 am
A bit off topic, but in the “you knew it was going to happen” department:
Riots in Ferguson caused by Climate Change!!!
I trust this has been added to the watch list?
Brian
August 25, 2014 at 10:25 pm
Did you read any of your links?
None of them provides a single shred of evidence supporting your baseless assertions. If you imagine that evidence in support of your contentions & conjectures exists, please present it yourself. Thanks.
Besides which, consensus science is not science. As the late, great Dr. Michael Crichton observed, “If it’s consensus, it’s not science. If it’s science, it’s not consensus”.
The hypothesis of CACA has been repeatedly falsified. Indeed, it was born falsified. If it stood the test of the scientific method, its charlatan purveyors wouldn’t need to try to hide data & silence skeptics, ie real scientists.
rtj1211
August 25, 2014 at 11:30 pm
For the Moderators:
Altitude of Ben Nevis: 4,409 feet AMSL
Latitude of Ben Nevis: 56°47′49″N.
Were there glaciers in the mountains of Scotland as recently as the mid-19th century?
http://www.edwardboyle.com/blog/?p=2496
Discusses two recent papers on Scottish glaciers in the latter Holocene, to include the LIA.
Following upon what rtj1211 penned.
The snow patches that survive from one season to the next have been studied/recorded for quite some time. Dr. Adam Watson started in 1947. Since before the Internet (you won’t find his work in the Internet). He co-authored a book “Cool Britannia – Snowier times in 1580-1930 than since” (published 2011).
More recently other people are taking over and continuing his work. Observers ranging over the more wilder places of Scotland have added other patches which were previously unknown.
Sometimes a patch will make it through a series of summers. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they are bigger. Sometimes they are smaller.
Anyone interested in what the last winter on the Ben was like would do well to visit the Scottish Avalanche Information Service (SAIS) and look at the blog related to Lochaber. Plenty of pictures of impressive cornices (some in the process of fracturing).
Also related is this presentation – http://www.rmets.org/events/scotlands-semi-perennial-snowfields
Note the use of ‘semi-perennial’.
If anyone has more information as to what gullies on the Ben held these (hold these) bits of neve or photographs of the same it would be useful. rjt1211’s reference to SW gales is an indication as to the orientation of these snow patches (generally in NE-facing gullies or faces).
I’m not sure whether the bergschrund reported by the Beeb are actually randkluft. The title ‘bergschrund’ can be and has been used for both, although the formation of them are down to different mechanics. If randkluft-like then a dousing of warmish rain will work away at there attachement to gully walls and they could well detach before the first snows of the season. If randkuft-like could they be remnants of large cornices that failed to detach?
Surprise ‘glaciers’?
But the first snow of the season is only days away ….