Allan MacRae says: Thanks to Alberta Jacobs
vukcevic says:
August 15, 2014 at 12:00 pm
NASA THEMIS space project:
CMEs in even-numbered solar cycles tend to hit Earth with a leading edge that is magnetized north initiating powerful geomagnetic storms.
Data shows otherwise: there is no difference in geomagnetic storms between even and odd cycles, and that demolishes the whole premise of your ‘paper’. http://www.leif.org/research/Even-Odd-Dst.png [and BTW to initiate a storm you need a leading edge magnetized south, but since your claim is not true in the first place, that particular screw-up is irrelevant].
Earth’s surface temperature is correlated with the changes in Earth’s length of day – LOD.
LOD depends on the extent of the atmosphere, so will depend on the temperature of said atmosphere. Nothing special about that.
moreCarbonOK[&theWeatherisalwaysGood]HenryP said on August 15, 2014 at 12:05 pm:
@all
is there anyone on this blog now who actually denies that it is globally cooling?
They requested 15 years for proof global warming had stopped, then extended to 17. We should wait at least 15 years to declare global cooling, perhaps 17, unless it clearly and undeniably becomes statistically significant before then with no sign of turning back.
And since the lack of significant warming and the recent cooling coincides with the negative phase of the ~60yr PDO pseudo-cycle, and the AMO just flipped, it seems more likely we will see warming again when the natural cycles line up again than it does that we are entering a new little ice age. Much more likely.
kadaka said
” and the AMO just flipped,”
Hardly, it will stay in its warm mode while solar activity continues weak:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo
@kadaka
thanks for that comment
unfortunately it does not fit [my] reality
i.e. downward trend for most of the major indices since 2002 is clear
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1987/to:2015/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:2002/to:2015/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1987/to:2015/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:2002/to:2015/trend/plot/rss/from:1987/to:2015/plot/rss/from:2002/to:2015/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1987/to:2015/plot/hadsst2gl/from:2002/to:2015/trend/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/rss/from:1987/to:2002/trend
but these major indices are not [even] properly balanced by taking equal stations NH and SH
According to my own 3 data sets it is cooling since 2000
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/files/2013/02/henryspooltableNEWc.pdf
and all results show that global cooling is accelerating further downwards.
Unless something drastically happens on the sun I don’t see how you can turn this global cooling back to warming again.
Unfortunately, putting more CO2 up in the air is an idea that simply won’t work.
[note the last graph on minima which is supposed to rise in the face of rising GHG….]
From Ulric Lyons on August 15, 2014 at 12:49 pm:
Hardly, it will stay in its warm mode while solar activity continues weak:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/to:2014/mean:13/plot/esrl-amo/to:2014/mean:61/
Warm mode? At best it’s a multi-pronged peak, two or so. And while the AMO is said to be 40 years, the trough-to-trough looks about 30, and the shape appears sawtooth with a fast ramp-up.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/from:1950/to:2014/mean:13/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1950/to:2014/mean:13/normalise/
Did you notice it is normal for the AMO to lead solar activity? The AMO can go warm while solar activity is still weak.
kadaka said
“And while the AMO is said to be 40 years, the trough-to-trough looks about 30,”
It looks more like 65yrs trough-to-trough:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo
And it tends to out of phase with solar cycles in its warm mode, and in phase with solar cycles in its cold mode:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/every:13/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1850/normalise
kadaka said
“Did you notice it is normal for the AMO to lead solar activity? The AMO can go warm while solar activity is still weak.”
I noticed that it went warm AS solar activity weakened from 1995, which is why it will stay warm while solar activity remains weak:
http://snag.gy/dXp1s.jpg
REPLY: Dear Mr. Vukcevic, regarding your comment above.
Take a time out until Monday of next week. I grow tired of your tedium in comments You cause extra work for everyone. – Anthony Watts
Dear Mr Watts
Fair enough, will do. Spent far too much time here in the last 2-3 days anyway, you have done me a favour, have some other jobs need doing. Normally I make 2-3 short comments on selected threads, but for some reason this time I’ve got carried away. Apologies to mods for all the trouble.
All the best .
regards
m.a.vukcevic
From Ulric Lyons on August 15, 2014 at 2:07 pm
It looks more like 65yrs trough-to-trough:
Sorry, I was counting tick marks while making supper, was counting by ten.
And it tends to out of phase with solar cycles in its warm mode, and in phase with solar cycles in its cold mode:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/every:13/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1850/normalise
Why only display every 13th month for the AMO?
I had truncated it at 1950 as SIDC-SSN does not have the pre-1947 20% correction. Oh well, this is just looking at timing.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/from:1860/to:1940/mean:61/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1860/to:1940/mean:61/normalise/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1860/to:1940/mean:61/normalise/
SSN trough to AMO peak
~1865 before ~1867
~1878 before ~1879
~1889 same
~1901 after ~1899
~1913 after ~1908
~1923 after ~1915
~1933 after ~WHAT? AMO going berserk and up.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/from:1940/to:2014/mean:61/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1940/to:2014/mean:61/normalise/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1940/to:2014/mean:61/normalise/
SSN trough to AMO peak
~1942 same
~1953 after ~1952
~1964 after ~1960
~1975 after ~1969
~1986 after ~1980
~1996 after ~1990
~2008 after ~1999
You know, offhand, that REALLY looks more like two cycles with different period lengths. Did you ever do a match-up like that?
2004
http://hal-insu.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/00/19/81/PDF/solar_synchronisation.pdf
Synchronising effect of planetary resonance
M. A. Vukcevic, M.Sc
This article investigates and demonstrates the combined effect from two major planets at the centre of the Solar system. Gravitational and magnetic effects are considered as possible sources of solar activity synchronisation.
2004
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004astro.ph..1107V
Evidence of a multi resonant system within solar periodic activity
Vukcevic, M. A.
eprint arXiv:astro-ph/0401107
To demonstrate a degree of correlation between periodicity in the solar activity and a multi-resonant system three examples are considered. Although only two base frequencies were employed a relatively close correlation was obtained for periodicity, amplitude’s envelope and some well-known longer-term anomalies, by using a simple mathematical formula.
Go to Ver 2: http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0401107v2
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401107v2.pdf
2007
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/28/98/80/PDF/Hypothesis.pdf
PDF is damaged, won’t display.
HTML version (bad graphs)
http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:lnHqMCmmEGoJ:scholar.google.com/+m+vukcevic+solar&hl=en&as_sdt=1,39
M. A. Vukcevic
( 01/09/2007 )
An alternative view of the solar periodicity
‘the nature is adverse to a coincidence, it is ruled by a cause and the consequence’
The solar periodic activity is due to a feedback from the energy transfer between the heliospheric magnetic flux and the planetary magnetospheres
2009
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/40/88/86/PDF/NATA.pdf
North Atlantic Temperature Anomaly
M.A. Vukcevic M.Sc. 2009
Abstract: The author postulates the existence of a high correlation between North Atlantic Temperature Anomaly and the variations of magnetic field over the Hudson Bay region. Post-glacial uplift and convection in the underlying mantle uplift (as reflected in changes of the area’s magnetic intensity) are making significant contribution to the Atlantic basin climate change.
2012
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/72/81/45/PDF/GEO-SOLAR-oscillations.pdf
Role of Natural Cycles in the Global Climate Change
M.A. Vukcevic MSc
September 2012
PART ONE
ABSTRACT
It is postulated that the decadal temperature variability in the North Hemisphere can be reconstructed relatively accurately by amplification of the solar magnetic cycle (Hale cycle) by natural oscillations emanating from the liquid part of the Earth’s core, as detected in the secular changes of the Earth’s magnetic field. In this part of the of the study only circumstantial evidence will be considered, while no physical mechanism, although it is hinted at on number of occasions, will be subject of part two.
There are also papers found by M. Vukcevic, first name Miroslava or Mira, affiliation Military Academy, University of Defense, Siberia. While of similar material (plasma, cosmic rays, astrophysics) there are enough differences, like the missing initial, to think that is someone else. Perhaps Vuk’s kid?
No amount of argumentation will change AGW position until it is beyond the fact of, ‘it really is colder’. SC 24 was a surprise since it was predicted as Allan pointed out to be just as strong as the previous cycles. I had in mind that the SC would weaken within +/- a few, which would take it out of my lifetime. There is a lot of talk about the magnetic fields of the sun and the earth. For certain the earth’s magnetic has weaken since the Industrial Revolution. Everyone should know something very basic about the field strength, it is not uniform, the cross sectional strength is squared at the poles. That is a significant decrease in some areas and a minor one in others.
I think that the temperature here is dependent on the solar cycles, extent, duration and strength.
A weakening solar cycle and a weakening earth’s magnetic field would cause some strange weather indeed .
As someone asked, “do we all think it will get colder?” . I certainly do. It is extremely important to know.. how much and when.
rishrac says:
August 15, 2014 at 10:42 pm
SC 24 was a surprise since it was predicted as Allan pointed out to be just as strong as the previous cycles.
It was predicted on sound physical principles to be the weakest in a 100 years http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%2024%20Smallest%20100%20years.pdf
so no surprise.
Note to moderator
Dear Sir / Madam
I would think it is a bit unfair to publish
kadaka (KD Knoebel) post at August 15, 2014 at 9:38 pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/11/a-gleissberg-solar-minimum/#comment-1710210
with links to some of my old work, while I am temporarily exiled from the WUWT blog.
I would appreciate if it is possible for time being to withdraw the post, until I am in position to respond to it or any forthcoming comments from other readers.
Thank you
regards
m.a.vukcevic
kadaka said
“You know, offhand, that REALLY looks more like two cycles with different period lengths”
I think that there is a phase reversal in the AMO response to solar cycles. depending on the mode of the AMO:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-amo/every:13/normalise/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1850/normalise
Which is why I expect a renewed warm AMO from 2016 to 2024/25. I was also expecting more negative NAO/AO conditions through this period anyway, which gives more certainty to a warm AMO decade ahead.
The point which is very important is the sun since 2005 has switched gears from an active regime to an inactive regime. Therefore I would say it is not wise to predict future solar activity based on how the sun behaved when it was in an active mode.
Evidence of this would be the extreme unexpected solar lull from 2008-2010 which caught every one off guard.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/05/study-solar-activity-lull-increases-chances-of-cold-uk-winters/
This is Professor Lockwood’s take on solar variability and how it may effect the climate for some parts of the globe. He subscribes to three of my beliefs which are the sun has variability ,it was much less active during the Maunder Minimum and it did indeed effect the climate if not global at least regional.
I would say in the balance of things his thinking is more or less the same as mine. Not exactly but pretty close.
Again I think an interview with him over this web-site would generate keen interest. I would look forward to this if it should take place.
Leif Svalgaard says:
“LOD depends on the extent of the atmosphere, so will depend on the temperature of said atmosphere. Nothing special about that.”
I am sure you did not mean this as it came across. LOD is dependent upon the rotation rate of the earth, las time I checked, which is quite consistent over human lengths of time. Did you mean LOD effects?
Leif Svalgaard says:
It would seem that any real effect on LOD by atmosphere extent would be minimal similar to the delta TSI of 0.1 degree you often quote.
“Atmospheric Angular Momentum Fluctuations, Length-of-Day Changes and Polar Motion”
R. T. H. Barnes, R. Hide, A. A. White and C. A. Wilson
Jim G says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:02 am
I am sure you did not mean this as it came across. LOD is dependent upon the rotation rate of the earth, las time I checked, which is quite consistent over human lengths of time. Did you mean LOD effects?
I don’t think there are any LOD ‘effects’. LOD is the effect. If the atmosphere heats up it extends and as an ice scatter pirouettes slower when she extends her arms, so will the Earth.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
August 16, 2014 at 7:44 am
I would say in the balance of things his thinking is more or less the same as mine
Like ‘no little ice age’?
From Jim G on August 16, 2014 at 8:02 am:
I am sure you did not mean this as it came across. LOD is dependent upon the rotation rate of the earth, las time I checked, which is quite consistent over human lengths of time. Did you mean LOD effects?
There are frequent and regular changes, just fractions of milliseconds. It all normally goes back to conservation of angular momentum.
Think of the classic example of the ice skater turning at one speed with limbs extending outward, then they draw their limbs inward and speed up. Same thing normally. When the atmosphere puffs outward the rotational speed of Earth slows slightly, increasing LOD, although the angular momentum stays the same.
Although there are other things affecting LOD. A small one to mention is Earth keeps gaining mass, assorted interplanetary dust and such, causing a gradual slowdown. I mention it because it’s not listed in this authoritative source, likely because it’s not a variation.
http://www.iers.org/nn_10398/IERS/EN/Science/EarthRotation/UT1LOD.html
Universal time and length of day are subject to variations due to the zonal tides (smaller than 2.5 ms in absolute value), to oceanic tides (smaller than 0.03 ms in absolute value), to atmospheric circulation, to internal effects and to transfer of angular momentum to the Moon orbital motion.
The variations in LOD can be split into several components, according to their causes. The total variation is shown in the upper part of the figure, without oscillations induced by the tides of the solid Earth and oceans, are shown separately for the long and short periods. The dynamical influence of the liquid core of the earth and climatic variations in the atmosphere account for slow variations (trend in the upper part of the figure). The rest of the atmospheric excitation can be split into a seasonal oscillation and residual oscillation, which includes 50-day oscillations as well as large anomalies like the one associated with the 1983 El Niño event. Yearly values of LOD since 1623 are available.
There are also sudden changes. Earthquakes can change the shape of the Earth. Often you’ll see the LOD shorten, as the core is cooling thus the globe wants to shrink.
The important things to note, are LOD does change, and for many reasons, see the “variations in LOD” link above. To take such a noisy overlapping of many signals and events, point and say “Ah-ha! There’s the solar signal I knew was there!”, is nonsense.
kadaka KD Knoebel says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/11/a-gleissberg-solar-minimum/#comment-1710210
henry says
and your point is?
and what, if anything, has it to do with the subject on hand?
i.e.
the 87-88 year Gleissberg cycle, as posted, and as was determined in earlier work, e.g. in 2002,
Persistence of the Gleissberg 88-year solar cycle over the last ˜12,000 years: Evidence from cosmogenic isotopes
Peristykh, Alexei N.; Damon, Paul E.
Journal of Geophysical Research (Space Physics), Volume 108, Issue A1, pp. SSH 1-1, CiteID 1003, DOI 10.1029/2002JA009390
Among other longer-than-22-year periods in Fourier spectra of various solar-terrestrial records, the 88-year cycle is unique, because it can be directly linked to the cyclic activity of sunspot formation. Variations of amplitude as well as of period of the Schwabe 11-year cycle of sunspot activity have actually been known for a long time and a ca. 80-year cycle was detected in those variations. Manifestations of such secular periodic processes were reported in a broad variety of solar, solar-terrestrial, and terrestrial climatic phenomena. Confirmation of the existence of the Gleissberg cycle in long solar-terrestrial records as well as the question of its stability is of great significance for solar dynamo theories. For that perspective, we examined the longest detailed cosmogenic isotope record—INTCAL98 calibration record of atmospheric 14C abundance. The most detailed precisely dated part of the record extends back to ˜11,854 years B.P. During this whole period, the Gleissberg cycle in 14C concentration has a period of 87.8 years and an average amplitude of ˜1‰ (in Δ14C units). Spectral analysis indicates in frequency domain by sidebands of the combination tones at periods of ≈91.5 ± 0.1 and ≈84.6 ± 0.1 years that the amplitude of the Gleissberg cycle appears to be modulated by other long-term quasiperiodic process of timescale ˜2000 years. This is confirmed directly in time domain by bandpass filtering and time-frequency analysis of the record. Also, there is additional evidence in the frequency domain for the modulation of the Gleissberg cycle by other millennial scale processes. Attempts have been made to explain 20th century global warming exclusively by the component of irradiance variation associated with the Gleissberg cycle.
[Note the reference to the 22 year cycle which we discussed]
Henry quotes
Attempts have been made to explain 20th century global warming exclusively by the component of irradiance variation associated with the Gleissberg cycle.
Henry says
My own investigations confirm that all warming and cooling is natural and that it appears to follow a 88 year pattern, if you look purely at maximum temperatures as a proxy. There are/could be lags, and these lag times may differ, due to a variety of reasons, but in the end it evens out.
There is no man made warming, as my graph for the deceleration of minimum temperatures suggests.
In a recent paper “The Centennial Gleissberg Cycle and its Association with Extended Minima”, to be soon published in JGR/Space, Feynman and Ruzmaikin discuss how the recent extended minimum of solar and geomagnetic variability (XSM) mirrors the XSMs in the 19th and 20th centuries: 1810–1830 and 1900–1910.
Edited abstract:
Such extended minima also were evident in aurorae reported from 450 AD to 1450 AD. The paper argues that these minima are consistent with minima of the Centennial Gleissberg Cycles (CGC), a 90–100 year variation observed on the Sun, in the solar wind, at the Earth and throughout the Heliosphere. The occurrence of the recent XSM is consistent with the existence of the CGC as a quasi-periodic variation of the solar dynamo. Evidence of CGC’s is provided by the multi-century sunspot record, by the almost 150-year record of indexes of geomagnetic activity (1868-present), by 1,000 years of observations of aurorae (from 450 to 1450 AD) and millennial records of radionuclides in ice cores.
The “aa” index of geomagnetic activity carries information about the two components of the solar magnetic field (toroidal and poloidal), one driven by flares and CMEs (related to the toroidal field), the other driven by co-rotating interaction regions in the solar wind (related to the poloidal field). These two components systematically vary in their intensity and relative phase giving us information about centennial changes of the sources of solar dynamo during the recent CGC over the last century. The dipole and quadrupole modes of the solar magnetic field changed in relative amplitude and phase; the quadrupole mode became more important as the XSM was approached. Some implications for the solar dynamo theory are discussed.
* Says The Hockey Schtick: If it is true that the current lull in solar activity is “consistent with minima of the Centennial Gleissberg Cycles,” and the Gleissberg Cycle is a real solar cycle, the current Gleissberg minimum could last a few decades before solar activity begins to rise again.
* Solar physicist Habibullo Abdussamatov predicts the current lull in solar activity will continue until about the middle of the 21st century and lead to a new Little Ice Age within the next 30 years.