David Victor, in a presentation in January at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography as part of a seminar series titled “Global Warming Denialism: What science has to say”, fairly recently highlighted here at Andy Revkin’s Dot Earth blog in the online International New York Times, made several very important points that I think that maybe we can, and should, all agree on, as a starting point to all of our subsequent discussions on “global warming/climate change”.
First, let it be said that David Victor, in his speech, self-describes himself as follows: ”I consider myself part of the mainstream scientific community on climate change, and I do all the things that the mainstream does. I teach about climate science and policy; I participate actively in the IPCC; I publish in all the normal journals.” He is a dyed-in-the-wool, self-proclaimed, practicing, Global Warming believer. He uses the term “believer” in his speech to describe adherents to the IPCC consensus. In any case, he cannot be mistaken for any kind of a climate change skeptic.
Each of the five following points of agreement is quoted directly from his speech, though not in sequential order, with some with emphasis added, each quote is followed by some comments by myself, in italics like this, to clearly differentiate them from Victor’s quoted words:
1. “First, I’d like to suggest that calling people who disagree “denialists” is clouding our judgment. If you really want to understand what motivates these people and what motivates the captains of industry and voters who listen to them, stop calling them denialists.”
The word “denialists” is offensive in its connotation, intended or not, of Holocaust denialism, and is, in any case, incorrect, no one (“nutters” excepted), denies “climate” or that climate changes. Later in his speech, he uses a better word which I will suggest here for all of us, if we must separate people with a binary system denoting disagreement with IPCC climate change science consensus: climate change consensus DISSENT and DISSENTERS.
I will add that though Victor seems comfortable referring to climate change consensus supporters as “Believers”, if I were a professional scientist, I would find this very distasteful. It sounds way to much like something skeptics often accuse them of. I would propose they settle for consensus SUPPORTERS, which doesn’t imply slavish following of every line of a doctrine-like set of beliefs.
2. “We in the scientific community need to acknowledge that the science is softer than we like to portray. The science is not “in” on climate change because we are dealing with a complex system whose full properties are, with current methods, unknowable.”
Dr. Judith Curry , who hosts the Climate Etc. blog, is the goto expert on the issue of climate change uncertainty, and has written extensively on the subject; and its known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
3. “The science is “in” on the first steps in the analysis—historical emissions, concentrations, and brute force radiative balance—but not for the steps that actually matter for policy. Those include impacts, ease of adaptation, mitigation of emissions and such—are surrounded by error and uncertainty.” … “We all agree, you say, on some basic facts—that CO2 concentrations are approaching a mean of 400ppm, a value far above the 280 or 290ppm of the pre-industrial value. We agree that the climate will warm in equilibrium when net radiative forcing is added to the atmosphere, that humans are all but certainly responsible for at least half of the observed warming since the preindustrial era, etc. etc. That zone of agreement is impressive, but we must face the reality that those aren’t the questions that really matter for policy.”
Nearly all believers and skeptics alike agree on these basic points of the science (I place emphasis on the percentage of human contribution, many serious scientists still hold this bit in question, but in the end most agree that the exact percentage probably doesn’t really matter that much for policy). Before quibbling about radiative balance, note he says brute force radiative balance – not the nitty gritty picky details…we agree that this is not yet settled and is still a moving target for many.
4. “but [the science is] not [“in”] for the steps that actually matter for policy. Those include impacts, ease of adaptation, mitigation of emissions and such—are surrounded by error and uncertainty. I can understand why a politician says the science is settled—as Barack Obama did last night in the State of the Union Address, where he said the “debate is over”—because if your mission is to create a political momentum then it helps to brand the other side as a “Flat Earth Society” (as he did last June). But in the scientific community we can’t pretend that things are more certain than they are.“
This simply has to be acknowledged on both sides of the climate divide – and not over-emphasized by skeptics. Some things are fairly well understood and some are still basically mysteries – surrounded by error and uncertainty — and some are in-between and require more study – clouds, ocean currents and overturn, effects of cosmic rays on cloud formation – there is quite a known list – and then there are the as-yet unknowns.
5. “…in the scientific world, there are no bright lines and the whole idea of “consensus” is deeply troubling. There is a consensus that 2+2=4. After that, we are in shades of grey. “ …“The instinctual unease with consensus helps to explain why some of the world’s greatest scientists have been climate skeptics and why the public has such a hard time understanding why these people are so disagreeable. They are disagreeable because the selection mechanisms in science demand it. If you want to find people who agree then hire an accountant. Nobody has caused bigger trouble than Freeman Dyson whose skeptical views on climate first came into focus through a 2009 New York Times Magazine profile. How do you dismiss perhaps the most accomplished physicist of his generation as an uninformed imposter? You can’t.”
This applies to many other world class Climate Scientists, Physicists, Meteorologists, and other professionals (and serious citizen scientists as well) who are regularly trashed, thrashed, dismissed as frauds, Big Oil shills, and uniformed imposters by those who should know better on the Support’s side of the Climate Divide and in a far too-cooperative mainstream media. Likewise, some skeptics label some serious climate scientists as crooks, criminals, and frauds because they produce mainstream climate science which they find disagreeable.
Let’s agree to agree with David Victor: How do you dismiss these people? “You can’t.”
(Has there been misbehavior and are there some bad apples? Yes, maybe so—but if so, then let’s honesty admit, in both apple barrels. )
If you go on to read David Victor’s full January speech, understand that he does not follow his own admonition not to call dissenters “denialists.” It gets grating very quickly. He uses other disagreeable words as well. There are interesting things in Victor’s speech about where climate fight money comes from and whom it goes, admissions you won’t see elsewhere. I’m sure you will find things to agree with and many other things that David Victor says to disagree with as strongly as I do. Truthfully, it doesn’t seem to me that he agrees with himself much of the time: he’d do better if he stuck to the basic points above and worked from these. But, as I have said so many times it annoys even me, “Opinions Vary.”
I do agree with David Victor on these five simple points. Maybe we can at least all try to agree on #1, and let’s refer, if and when we must, to those who don’t agree with the IPCC Consensus as “Climate Change” or “Global Warming” Consensus DISSENTERS and to the subject as Climate Change Consensus DISSENT, and encourage others to do so. I think it’s a pretty good alternative though I’d be glad to hear your suggestions. I’m sure none of us like being called deniers or denialists.
Thank you.
# # # #
Authors Replies Policy: I will be glad to discuss why I agree with these five points made by David Victor.
I cannot, of course, speak for David Victor as to why he made these statements in the first instance. If you wish to understand his position better, read his original speech and place it, and David Victor, in their original contexts (see the first few paragraph of this essay). I have not listened to his latest , May 15th, presentation.
This is not a technical thread and I am not prepared (or able) to discuss, defend, or even generally talk about technical points such as brute force radiative balance or percentage of human contribution to CO2 concentrations or observed warming.

I accept with glee that I am considered a “heretic” by the high priests of the church of global warming, and have been so since about 1988 when they first told me that I would be burning in hell by 2008. Wait, it’s 2014 already? Well, the temperature here dropped about 15 degrees F this evening when the sun went down. It must be time to go to bed. Sleep well all!
Kip writes:
==> Nick Stokes starts off the controversies by poking at the question of whether or not adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere is “safe” – David Victor probably would have classified this as one of the questions that is fairly well understood but whose details are not settled and which are still surrounded by error and uncertainty. To Nick, I have no reply, as I am not qualified to discuss such a topic.
Since there is no scientific evidence that CO2 is harmful, “harmless” should be the default. Further, it has been clearly demonstrated that CO2 is beneficial to the biosphere. At both current and projected concentrations, more CO2 is better.
Until Mr Stokes provides testable evidence showing that CO2 is harmful in any way, his position is based only on vague “what-ifs”. That is not science. That is just religious belief.
Gregory says:
May 18, 2014 at 6:34 am
Step1: Stop calling me a denier. I am a skeptic.
Step2: Stop lying about my intentions. I am seeking the truth and I do not believe you have it.
==========================================
Bingo. Let me add…
It is fair if I call you an alarmist.
Your theory is not “Climate Change” It is CAGW. (The operative word is “catastrophic”)
Climate always changes. Stop saying I deny something that has happened for 4.5 billion years.
You want to change the economic and social structure of the world.
You are an alarmist.
The observations indicate you are wrong.
The beneficial effects of CO2 are known and measured in thousands of real world experiments.
The catastrophic harms are only modeled, and the models are failing to match observations.
I’m a lot less tolerant.
From where I sit, the over-funded Believers have declared war… on me. Personally. They call me stupid, unscientific, ignorant, creationist (as if), idiot, uneducated. They call me right-wing nutjob, unaware of the scientific method, and any number of other derogative names. So no, I won’t play nice now that they’re starting to lose the massive advantage they lied and cheated to get in the first place.
In my experience, there are two kinds of AGW believers:
1. Those who genuinely believe that the data they are seeing is valid, and that the conclusions being drawn are valid. I consider these ones “the deluded”
2. Those who are pulling the strings. They are WELL AWARE that the whole thing is a load of crap. They adjust temperatures, current and past. They come up with amazing (and inane) explanations for what the dishonestly call “the pause” (if they admit it at all). They are desperately trying to avoid being exposed for the lying cheats they are. Consider these ones “the deluders”.
Whatever value a “consensus” is in emerging science is completely destroyed by the politicization of something that is, frankly, a ridiculous hypothesis and a stupid thing to scare children and the gullible with.
A great commentary by Willis E, ….. and I liked this portion of it so much that I decided to re-post it so that everyone could read it a 2nd time, to wit:
Willis Eschenbach says:
May 18, 2014 at 9:11 am
“And now, folks on the AGW side say “well, let’s just see what we agree on and move on” … sorry, guys, the world doesn’t work that way. Once you’ve lied to people, once you’ve done your best to alarm them and scare them with terrifying predictions, when the lies become evident and the predictions fail time after time, when you are found lying and cheating and you refuse to even apologize, much less change your ways … at that point, dear friends, you have lost the people’s trust.
You don’t get it. We don’t trust mainstream AGW supporting climate scientists, and for damn good reason.”
———————–
And “NO”, I will not trust the “folks on the AGW side” ever again. They “sold their soul to the Devil” for money and fame …… and I truly believe they will do it again if they get the chance.
They have been found guilty of “cooking the (science) book” and should be treated accordingly.
Josephus said it best when he said, to wit:
“Now I cannot but think, that the greatness of a kingdom, and its changes into prosperity, often becomes the occasion of mischief and of transgression to men, for so it usually happens, that the manners of subjects are corrupted at the same time with those of their governors, which subjects then lay aside their own sober way of living, as a reproof of their governor’s intemperate courses, and follow their wickedness, as if it were virtue, for it is not possible to show that men approve of the actions of their kings, unless they do the same actions with them.” (Flavius Josephus – 37- 100 AD)
Climate critic doesn’t make sense–it sounds like a critic OF the climate.
Climate contrarian is OK–It sounds like one who is a contrarian ABOUT the climate.
That’s one reason I like contrarian, which has begun to catch on.
Believer doesn’t necessarily mean one who believes based on faith. Dictionaries say it means one who holds an opinion.
Disbeliever would be an OK term (to parallel Believer)–except that, again, Climate disbeliever doesn’t make sense.
dbstealey says:
May 18, 2014 at 8:39 pm
Yes, indeed.
In the absence of any hard empirical evidence of harm from the CO2 molecule, either now or in the past, claiming that this atmospheric trace gas could be the agent of global calamity is a vivid exemplar of the logical fallacy known as Special Pleading.
you sound like an intelligent and reasoned person sir … Why in the world would want to try and have a reasonable conversation with these people who spew hate every chance they get in public, in writings and in speeches …? Do you think they intend to beat you fair and square ? They have no such intention … their livelyhoods and sanity depend on winning this fight and it is you who would be the crazy one to assume they will “play nice” …
Do not ascribe motives or arguments to them that they themselves have not articulated … don’t play the “bad apples on both sides” nonsense …
trip them and step on their throat when they are down and don’t ever think about letting them up again … they hate you … don’t hate them back, destroy them with the science and make sure they never raise their heads again above the parapet … THEY are con men and frauds …
you nice guys have finished last for too many years in this “debate” … If you won’t win this fight then get out of the way and let someone else man the frontlines … this AGW nonsense should have been shutdown years ago …
And to be completely precise, I must add that a c1.2 km3 bubble of CO2 erupted from Lake Nyos in 1986, creating ground-hugging cloud of the gas that suffocated c1700 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos
Beyond the potential danger of almost anything in high concentration in the wrong place at the wrong time, we can also appreciate this incident because it illustrates nature’s capacity to add surges of CO2 to the atmosphere in erratic, unpredictable, and probably unrecognized ways.
Of course it all gets its photons shooting in the right direction, cleverly eludes convection on the way, and rushes on over to Mauna Loa to get itself allWell-Mixed
Willis Eschenbach: In the guise of looking for agreement, he is making (and the author is supporting) the very fundamental (and undecided) argument for his point of view—that the change in temperature is a linear function of the change in forcing. Or as he says, “We agree that the climate will warm in equilibrium when net radiative forcing is added to the atmosphere …”
That was a good post. I’ll stifle my few quibbles.
Kip Hansen: PS: “Wrap up” means that this will be my last comment on this essay.
Thank you for your post, followup comments, and links.
You see this is why I love the global warming debate: it’s damn near impossible to have a full, objective perspective, and that’s exactly why topics like scientists waving the red flag at Obama’s study, for instance are important. I’m particularly fond of the debates happening on PressReader (http://www.pressreader.com/profile/Spotlight/bookmarks/global_warming). To date, it’s one of the most educated/insightful platforms I’ve found and it’s worth checking out.
mediamentions,
I especially liked the headline in your link: Extreme Cold Is Part Of Global Warming
War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, etc.
Charles Nelson says:
May 18, 2014 at 5:52 am
… A tacit admission that the entire climate alarm campaign of the past twenty years is entirely without foundation. I’m getting a lot of that from Warmists now, they’re stepping back from their ‘certainty’ and taking a ‘precautionary’ stance.
Too little too late I’m afraid. The damage to the credibility of ‘science’ has been done and when the backlash against Warmism gets into full swing i.e. post Obama, there will be much weeping …
I agree – also with most of the commenter above.
Too little and too late.
There has never been a proper debate. Why?
Because the warmista did not allow for it. And the skeptics tried again and again and again.
Years after years of insults, hyper “adjusting” data always one sided and pseudo-science papers to support “the cause” demands a bit more explanation about how did we got here instead of a simple: why don’t we all …
This all went too far. It did great damage to science and still does. It did damage to society as a whole. Character assassination to a generation of skeptical scientists who dared ask questions. Vicious name calling.
There has never been a proper theory and proper arguments, the whole CAGW argument is a series of not clearly formulated hypothesis – like the first post above by Nick Stokes. That summarises CAGW. Add to it a lot of smoke screen, appeal to authority and bullying. It is not proper science but activism mixed with urban legends and spoiled child complexes.
Australia shows the proper way how to deal with it:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/05/18/finally-real-climate-refugees-funding-axe-down-under-may-force-climate-scientists-to-leave-the-country-in-order-to-find-work-elsewhere/
5 billion yearly savings for a country of 20 something million. And a loooong way to go in many other countries.
@ur momisugly Kip Hansen 5:26.
Why be amused? There is nothing remarkable about conmen seeking to negotiate once their scam is exposed.See Michael Larkin 9:14.
CodeTech states my feeling well. As does Willis.
There is no motivation to negotiate with known liars and thieves, how do you propose to negotiate in good faith with persons who have established a lack of honesty, ethics and personal integrity.
As for your assertion that David Victor acknowledges the fiscal imbalance between state funded alarmist propaganda and those who criticize such, later in his commentary… I read the transcript, so much verbiage , very little substance.
Just another parasite, panicking now that the host has recognized their ravages.
Too little too late.
For sure, the onset of the current interglacial set into motion a number of mechanisms of varying time scales. Some of the mechanisms are such that we are still in the long tail and experiencing a warming component. Within the interglacial there have been a number of warm and cold periods. The most recent transition was from the LIA to the present warm period. We may still be in the warming portion of that cycle. Meanwhile, the growth of human population and recent implementation of mass technological advancement and development have altered the albedo of vast areas of Earth and ramped up the amount of thermal flux being dumped into the area near the Earth’s surface. On top of all this, the atmosphere has been modified via matter introduced by human activity, resulting in both warming and cooling forcings.
W. Pretty much covered it.
No, I do not agree that CO2 does any warming.
And that bad apples bit… like saying “Sure we peed on you for years, but everybody pees.”
Just some of us didn’t do it to others…
So nice to see some clue setting in, and hoping for a bit more civility. But this is one “Honest Truthseeker” who has no room for any of the pigeon hole labels offered. Once the warmers stop “believing” and start seeking truth, we won’t need labels
I agree with Steven Mosher (way above) about agreeing on terms. I have been using ‘orthodox’ and ‘dissenter’ for some years now. The orthodoxy is the IPCC and the AGW disposition, while ‘dissent’ for whatever reason is a better term than ‘sceptic’. I am ‘agnostic’ about AGW (still waiting for good evidence) but completely sceptical that things like carbon taxes are good for society or that they will reduce temperature in a discernible way. Moreover, the agnostic in me wants to see strong evidence that warming is bad for the planet and for those who sail in it.
Just had a chance to read Willis’ post. Willis, you are right on the money. Thanks much.
Theo Goodwin says:
May 20, 2014 at 8:41 am
Thanks, Theo and others who commented on my response to Kip Hansen and David Victor’s attempt to re-write history …
Regards,
w.
Willis;
Right on. I was about to observe that one would have a hard time finding rotten apples in any but the Supporters/Believers/Troughers barrel, and your rejection of the faux moral equivalence covers that nicely.