Why don't we all just agree on Global Warming?

devil-handshake-agreementGuest Essay by Kip Hansen

David Victor, in a presentation in January at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography as part of a seminar series titled “Global Warming Denialism: What science has to say”, fairly recently highlighted here at Andy Revkin’s Dot Earth blog in the online International New York Times, made several very important points that I think that maybe we can, and should, all agree on, as a starting point to all of our subsequent discussions on “global warming/climate change”.

First, let it be said that David Victor, in his speech, self-describes himself as follows: ”I consider myself part of the mainstream scientific community on climate change, and I do all the things that the mainstream does. I teach about climate science and policy; I participate actively in the IPCC; I publish in all the normal journals.” He is a dyed-in-the-wool, self-proclaimed, practicing, Global Warming believer. He uses the term “believer” in his speech to describe adherents to the IPCC consensus. In any case, he cannot be mistaken for any kind of a climate change skeptic.

Each of the five following points of agreement is quoted directly from his speech, though not in sequential order, with some with emphasis added, each quote is followed by some comments by myself, in italics like this, to clearly differentiate them from Victor’s quoted words:

1. “First, I’d like to suggest that calling people who disagree “denialists” is clouding our judgment. If you really want to understand what motivates these people and what motivates the captains of industry and voters who listen to them, stop calling them denialists.”

The word “denialists” is offensive in its connotation, intended or not, of Holocaust denialism, and is, in any case, incorrect, no one (“nutters” excepted), denies “climate” or that climate changes. Later in his speech, he uses a better word which I will suggest here for all of us, if we must separate people with a binary system denoting disagreement with IPCC climate change science consensus: climate change consensus DISSENT and DISSENTERS.

I will add that though Victor seems comfortable referring to climate change consensus supporters as “Believers”, if I were a professional scientist, I would find this very distasteful. It sounds way to much like something skeptics often accuse them of. I would propose they settle for consensus SUPPORTERS, which doesn’t imply slavish following of every line of a doctrine-like set of beliefs.

2. “We in the scientific community need to acknowledge that the science is softer than we like to portray. The science is not “in” on climate change because we are dealing with a complex system whose full properties are, with current methods, unknowable.”

Dr. Judith Curry , who hosts the Climate Etc. blog, is the goto expert on the issue of climate change uncertainty, and has written extensively on the subject; and its known unknowns and unknown unknowns.

3. “The science is “in” on the first steps in the analysis—historical emissions, concentrations, and brute force radiative balance—but not for the steps that actually matter for policy. Those include impacts, ease of adaptation, mitigation of emissions and such—are surrounded by error and uncertainty.” … “We all agree, you say, on some basic facts—that CO2 concentrations are approaching a mean of 400ppm, a value far above the 280 or 290ppm of the pre-industrial value. We agree that the climate will warm in equilibrium when net radiative forcing is added to the atmosphere, that humans are all but certainly responsible for at least half of the observed warming since the preindustrial era, etc. etc. That zone of agreement is impressive, but we must face the reality that those aren’t the questions that really matter for policy.”

Nearly all believers and skeptics alike agree on these basic points of the science (I place emphasis on the percentage of human contribution, many serious scientists still hold this bit in question, but in the end most agree that the exact percentage probably doesn’t really matter that much for policy). Before quibbling about radiative balance, note he says brute force radiative balance – not the nitty gritty picky details…we agree that this is not yet settled and is still a moving target for many.

4. “but [the science is] not [“in”] for the steps that actually matter for policy. Those include impacts, ease of adaptation, mitigation of emissions and such—are surrounded by error and uncertainty. I can understand why a politician says the science is settled—as Barack Obama did last night in the State of the Union Address, where he said the “debate is over”—because if your mission is to create a political momentum then it helps to brand the other side as a “Flat Earth Society” (as he did last June). But in the scientific community we can’t pretend that things are more certain than they are.“

This simply has to be acknowledged on both sides of the climate divide – and not over-emphasized by skeptics. Some things are fairly well understood and some are still basically mysteries – surrounded by error and uncertainty — and some are in-between and require more study – clouds, ocean currents and overturn, effects of cosmic rays on cloud formation – there is quite a known list – and then there are the as-yet unknowns.

5. “…in the scientific world, there are no bright lines and the whole idea of “consensus” is deeply troubling. There is a consensus that 2+2=4. After that, we are in shades of grey. “ …“The instinctual unease with consensus helps to explain why some of the world’s greatest scientists have been climate skeptics and why the public has such a hard time understanding why these people are so disagreeable. They are disagreeable because the selection mechanisms in science demand it. If you want to find people who agree then hire an accountant. Nobody has caused bigger trouble than Freeman Dyson whose skeptical views on climate first came into focus through a 2009 New York Times Magazine profile. How do you dismiss perhaps the most accomplished physicist of his generation as an uninformed imposter? You can’t.

This applies to many other world class Climate Scientists, Physicists, Meteorologists, and other professionals (and serious citizen scientists as well) who are regularly trashed, thrashed, dismissed as frauds, Big Oil shills, and uniformed imposters by those who should know better on the Support’s side of the Climate Divide and in a far too-cooperative mainstream media. Likewise, some skeptics label some serious climate scientists as crooks, criminals, and frauds because they produce mainstream climate science which they find disagreeable.

Let’s agree to agree with David Victor: How do you dismiss these people? “You can’t.”

(Has there been misbehavior and are there some bad apples? Yes, maybe so—but if so, then let’s honesty admit, in both apple barrels. )

If you go on to read David Victor’s full January speech, understand that he does not follow his own admonition not to call dissenters “denialists.” It gets grating very quickly. He uses other disagreeable words as well. There are interesting things in Victor’s speech about where climate fight money comes from and whom it goes, admissions you won’t see elsewhere. I’m sure you will find things to agree with and many other things that David Victor says to disagree with as strongly as I do. Truthfully, it doesn’t seem to me that he agrees with himself much of the time: he’d do better if he stuck to the basic points above and worked from these. But, as I have said so many times it annoys even me, “Opinions Vary.”

I do agree with David Victor on these five simple points. Maybe we can at least all try to agree on #1, and let’s refer, if and when we must, to those who don’t agree with the IPCC Consensus as “Climate Change” or “Global Warming” Consensus DISSENTERS and to the subject as Climate Change Consensus DISSENT, and encourage others to do so. I think it’s a pretty good alternative though I’d be glad to hear your suggestions. I’m sure none of us like being called deniers or denialists.

Thank you.

# # # #

Authors Replies Policy: I will be glad to discuss why I agree with these five points made by David Victor.

I cannot, of course, speak for David Victor as to why he made these statements in the first instance. If you wish to understand his position better, read his original speech and place it, and David Victor, in their original contexts (see the first few paragraph of this essay). I have not listened to his latest , May 15th, presentation.

This is not a technical thread and I am not prepared (or able) to discuss, defend, or even generally talk about technical points such as brute force radiative balance or percentage of human contribution to CO2 concentrations or observed warming.

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May 18, 2014 11:15 am

Alec Rawls says:
Everybody agrees that humans are responsible for at least half of warming from the pre-industrial era? This is an extreme alarmist position almost unheard of before AR5.
Exactly right. I am part of the set “everybody”, and I do not agree. I will readily agree that humans cause global warming — just as soon as credible scientific evidence is produced. Until then, I’m skeptical.

May 18, 2014 11:20 am

Zeke says:
May 18, 2014 at 11:06 am

The owner of the potash mining operation must not be large Democrat donors or they would experience no problems — or maybe they are a company that competes with another potash operation that IS a large Democrat donor.

richardscourtney
May 18, 2014 11:20 am

Friends:
In case anybody missed it, I write to commend reading all of the excellent post by Willis Eschenbach at May 18, 2014 at 9:11 am.
This link jumps to the post to help those who missed it.
Richard

Alan Robertson
May 18, 2014 11:35 am

Jim Francisco says:
May 18, 2014 at 11:12 am
Thanks to John Bowman for clearly stating what needed to be said.
Jim
_________________
Jim,
A small suggestion, if I may: it would be a time saver and more helpful to the readership to copy/past the name and time stamp of any mentioned, or quoted comment.
Thanks,
Alan

Liberal Skeptic
May 18, 2014 11:40 am

5 Billion Dollars is an insanely large budget for a country the size of Australia to put into just one area of science.
Has the money been reshuffled or removed from the science budget entirely?

Londo
May 18, 2014 11:47 am

Why don’t we all just agree on Global Warming? Very simple to answer: because it is no longer a science. If it was, it would be very simple to identify the things we agree on and those that we don’t but even for those, we would agree on what it would take for us to come to an agreement.
If it was a science, there would certainly not be any blog entries that we shouldn’t engage in name calling. A mutual respect would be a given. In fact, if it was a science, we would welcome challenges because, in the end, we all would like to know how it works just out of curiosity.
Now that climate has become a religion, nobody cares how it works. It’s all about prestige and money and fame.
The corruption of climate research has gone so far that a bad analysis that produces a result that fits the political agenda leads to an illustrious career while any solid work that disturbs the consensus leads to a one way street. And, I’m afraid that the enrichment of ignorance and piety will continue unless the we have another decade without increasing global temperatures and even the most ignorant will see that the climate emperors have no clothes.

Stephen Richards
May 18, 2014 12:01 pm

You seem to miss the fact that if about half of the warming over the last 150 years (coming to about 0.4C contribution) is due to human activity
This is a guestimate. It is not a real number neither is Nick’s do something just in case a valid strategy.

Stephen Richards
May 18, 2014 12:05 pm

crosspatch says:
May 18, 2014 at 10:36 am
Do you realize how many careers of people with celebrity status would be destroyed if there were no “global warming”? Do you realize how small the market was for “climate scientists” in 1980 compared to today? There are literally hundreds of billions of dollars at risk. I will give one small example:
Been my point for years, yet when I get really angry I get shouted down for being rude. I cannot express my anger at these people strong enough without the emotion.

Matthew R Marler
May 18, 2014 12:10 pm

Nick Stokes: That doesn’t mean it is safe to do it. Anything but.
There isn’t much evidence on the “anything but” side. Surface plant life will almost all grow better (but nutritional concentration in food crops may decline as fiber content increases.) Hydrological cycle will probably increase, but the case has flaws. A little temp increase will probably be good for plant growth, but the case has flaws. The time course of cloud cover can not be reliably predicted,but there is a case that cloud cover will increase. Increased CO2 in seawater will probably enhance marine plant growth, and growth of other marine life, but the case for the latter is equivocal, and depends on other sources of acidity.

Editor
May 18, 2014 12:18 pm

Author’s replies ==>
==> Theo Goodwin David Victor has taken his presentation on the road – see http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/05/15/webcast-on-now-re-thinking-climate-denialism/
I missed this latest one, but the promo for the May 15th webcast referred to the January presentation from which I took the items in my essay.
==> Steve Mosher, Pamela Gray, ATheo There seems to be some support for “critic”, which I agree with as well (remember, it is Victor, of IPCC fame, who suggests originally, “dissenter”) but I think we’d need an adjective or a subject. A “something” critic or maybe a critic of “something”….. Global Warming Critic? IPCC Critic? Critic of ????
==> emsnews There are some scientists who have publicly dissented and “jumped” the IPCC consensus “ship”. Apparently not yourself, though.
==> Jeff Id The bit you quote — “that humans are all but certainly responsible for at least half of the observed warming since the preindustrial era, “ — is David Victor speaking. In my follow-up comments in included the caveat ? “(I place emphasis on the percentage of human contribution, many serious scientists still hold this bit in question, but in the end most agree that the exact percentage probably doesn’t really matter that much for policy) “. I have no opinion on the matter and state so in my Author’s Replies Policy section: “This is not a technical thread and I am not prepared (or able) to discuss, defend, or even generally talk about technical points such as brute force radiative balance or percentage of human contribution to CO2 concentrations or observed warming.”.
==> Latitude Here again, the bit quoted is David Victor speaking. You may have misunderstood what he is saying here. It is simply that we pretty much understand how much CO2 has been emitted over the last couple of centuries, what the CO2 concentrations have been over the same period, what the “brute force radiative balance” is (not very detailed, but the gross figures)….and I think that is generally true…if you’ve read the comments this far down, you would have seen only a few objections to his point.
==> Pamela Gray You could be, however, a critic of global warming skepticism, so we might need an adjective or other descriptive word to go along with it.

Stonyground
May 18, 2014 12:29 pm

Sorry if someone has already said this, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I have to pick up on this part:
” But in the scientific community we can’t pretend that things are more certain than they are.“
Isn’t this exactly what the ‘consensus supporters’ have been doing for the past 24 years? Things were apparently so certain that anyone who has even a single doubt about a single detail was denounced as a heretic and labelled as some kind of flat earth believing loon. I suggest that this new, more tolerant, approach is a direct result of reality being shown to be a bit of a dissenter.

Louis
May 18, 2014 12:30 pm

“We do know that we burnt 350 GT and it warmed. That is consistent with what the physics said. We need to work out what the next 1000 Gt will do, as best we can. And then some.”

Nick, how much of that 350 GT was burnt over the past 17 years? The best you can say is that it warmed for a time and then stopped warming. That behavior has yet to be explained. It is very possible that there are delayed feedbacks that counteract additional warming from CO2. There are just too many unknowns to work out what the next 1000 GT will do. When you say to work it out “as best we can. And then some.” What does that mean? How can we go beyond the “best we can” without just making stuff up? Or is that an admission of what you are doing?

NikFromNYC
May 18, 2014 12:36 pm

Remember guys, Nick Stokes is the *best* the hockey stick team has who is willing to post on an uncensored forum. He’s merely acting like a skilled defense attorney rather than a inquisitive scientist, or a seasoned judge. You wonder though, why a makeshift lawyer is all they have to offer.
From a lawyer you will not get fair consideration that includes proper perspective, such as the obvious fact that first of all there is a much bigger immediate risk of re-entering a world of untreatable plagues and toxic hospitals due to antibiotics resistance as research funding is diverted *away* from biochemistry into premature green energy, and that hobbling the economy now will sabotage the rapid technological advances needed to *cheaply* geoengineer away any real threats a century or two away, when Stoke’s boogey man finally arrives. That he is on the side of genocide is no different from a good lawyer giving a murderer a fair defense.

Editor
May 18, 2014 12:36 pm

Author’s replies ==> [ This should have posted long ago, but I think it was blocked as it used forbidden words. ]
Many thanks for the 113 replies so far. Sunday mornings for me are always reserved for the important things in life — Family and Church — so I’m checking in a bit late.
==> Nick Stokes starts off the controversies by poking at the question of whether or not adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere is “safe” – David Victor probably would have classified this as one of the questions that is fairly well understood but whose details are not settled and which are still surrounded by error and uncertainty. To Nick, I have no reply, as I am not qualified to discuss such a topic.
==> Daniel G. “Believer” would only be distasteful to a Scientist in regards to a scientific topic. For instance, a Scientist would not want to be referred to as “believer “ in mathematics – as mathematics is not a matter of belief or disbelief.
==> Alan Robertson If you were to listen to Victor’s complete speech [I have just discovered that Andy Revkin’s online transcript of Victor’s presentation is no longer available online] you would find that he admits openly that the PR money flow in the Climate Wars is vastly uneven – with the lion’s share going to the pro-GW side and almost nothing to the skeptic side.
==> JohnWho and Darren Potter — The blog article title was assigned by the blog hosts/editor and was not my (the author) choice. I only hope we can agree about the five points picked out of David Victor’s presentation, despite the fact that he is an IPCC Lead Author and very much a dyed-in-the-wool Believer.
==> ATheoK Thanks for your comments. Consider this: Victor is a card-carrying IPCC Lead Author, a virulent promoter of AGW – yet, in a presentation on Climate Change Den1al1sm, he freely calls for IPCC/AGW supporters to stop calling skeptics “den1ers”, admits that “the science is NOT in”, not settled, on global warming as far as policy setting goes, that much of climate science remains unknowable, and that they (the IPCC believers) cannot dismiss people like Dyson (and other world-class scientists) who disagree about climate. That’s some heavy stuff for a guy like Victor. Stuff guys like me can agree with.

RACookPE1978
Editor
May 18, 2014 12:46 pm

Several readers have offered guesstimates of how much the CAGW religion is extorting from the world’s poor and innocent victims to feed the CAGW’s rich and powerful elites.
Above, Australia’s 5 billion AU budget is mentioned (as a target of cuts by Abbott’s new government), but what is the accepted US “cost” of its CAGW obsession with destroying the economy? I understand 200 billion is most often used, but over period is that 200 billion assigned?
Is the 200 billion only including the “direct government money” paid to its CAGW supporters and promoters and beneficiaries?
What is the economic “cost” of just the US-UK-UN-AUS-NZ-Canada attempts to “control” energy “because” of the CAGW religion?
Does the US 200 billion dollar budget include the 4% – 8% of the economy damaged by CAGW dictates and arbitrary rules and restrictions over the past 8 years? (2 under Bush-Pelosi-Reid and 6 under Obama-Pelosi-Reid’s dictatorship.)
What is the worldwide budget for supporting and feeding the CAGW religion?

Go Whitecaps!!
May 18, 2014 12:53 pm

Here is my take on the “50% of warming is anthropogenic”. The consensus believe that 100% of the warming up to 1940 is natural. They believe that 100% of the warming from 1980 is AGW. The proof is that their computer models don’t work unless the above is maintained.
However, as the earlier trend is close to the same as the latter trend, I would postulate the AGW after 1980 is 0% up to 100%. As an average I will presume that AGW is 50% responsible for the latter warming. Therefore out of .8°C of 20th century warming AGW is responsible for .2°C. If the consensus can separate the natural v human effect then this figure can be adjusted.

James McCown
May 18, 2014 1:05 pm

Nick Stokes says: May 18, 2014 at 6:14 am
“We’re not dependent on the “experiment” of burning 350 Gt C to know the effects of CO2. That comes back to radiative physics that has been known for over a century. We do know that we burnt 350 GT and it warmed. That is consistent with what the physics said. We need to work out what the next 1000 Gt will do, as best we can. And then some.”
So why don’t you review that well-known radiative physics and compare the absorption spectrum of CO2 in the infrared bands with that of H2O? You will see that most of the radiation emitted by the earth would be absorbed by the water vapor, regardless of the concentration of CO2.

Latitude
May 18, 2014 1:09 pm

Kip Hansen says:
May 18, 2014 at 12:18 pm
==> Latitude Here again, the bit quoted is David Victor speaking. You may have misunderstood what he is saying here. It is simply that we pretty much understand how much CO2 has been emitted over the last couple of centuries, what the CO2 concentrations have been over the same period, what the “brute force radiative balance” is (not very detailed, but the gross figures)….and I think that is generally true…if you’ve read the comments this far down, you would have seen only a few objections to his point.
====
“We agree……………….., that humans are all but certainly responsible for at least half of the observed warming since the preindustrial era,”
===============
Well, I don’t agree……not only have the temps been “adjusted”, so we don’t work with “observed warming” that has any relation to reality…….there is not one thing “certain” about that statement.
First someone would have to claim that “humans” produce some sort of magic CO2 and it accumulates at 2ppm a year, and is overwhelming the system…….that is about the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard……………….well, that’s what they are claiming

Editor
May 18, 2014 1:39 pm

Author’s replies ==>
==> Stonyground “Isn’t this exactly what the ‘consensus supporters’ have been doing for the past 24 years?” Of course it is….that is what is so noteworthy about this IPCC lead author and AGW uber-promoter admitting that they have been and that they have to cut it out – and he admits it very publicly.
==> John Robertson In his full presentation, David Victor goes on to admit that since the turn of the century at least, the pro-AGW propagandists have had far more untraceable political money (nearly all of it) than the skeptic side.
==> Hunter You should read carefully the admissions Victor does make – they are rather incredible for a man in his position.
==> dbstealy Once again I remind readers that these are David Victor’s words….and of course, he means generally. I include a caveat in my comments that this point is still quite controversial.
==> Londo Let me remind you that the title was chosen by the blog editors, not myself, the essay author. I have not asked you to agree about global warming. But you might be able to agree in general about the five points brought up by David Victor, despite the fact that he may otherwise very likely seem to be 180 degrees opposed to your general views on AGW. Also let me remind you that Climate Science is not the first scientific endeavor that has seen public name calling and infighting – and it will not be the last. There have been many famous scientific squabbles – think of the “Source of the Nile” and Sir Richard Burton.
==> Latitude Yes, Victor makes the attribution statement (50% etc) in the same paragraph. Since it is not *really* true that “everyone” agrees or that it is “all but certain”, I included a caveat in my comments noting that this portion of his claim was still controversial amongst climate scientists – particularly the % of human contribution. You are perfectly welcome to your opinion. Everyone else involved in climate science has one.

May 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Stephen Richards says:
May 18, 2014 at 12:01 pm
You seem to miss the fact that if about half of the warming over the last 150 years (coming to about 0.4C contribution) is due to human activity

I haven’t seen any evidence that ANY of the warming is due to human activity. It has STILL not fully recovered to what it was before the Little Ice Age. The modern thermometer was invented toward the end of the LIA. Global temperature records record the recovery from that event. The temperature rose by the same amount at the same rate from 1910 to 1940 as it did from 1975 to 2005. Humans could not have caused the earlier rise and there is no evidence (only speculation fed by some computer models) that humans have contributed to the second rise.
It was cold for a very long time, about 600 years. It takes a long time for the oceans to warm up after such an event. It takes about 800 years to ventilate the oceans. You can cool a body of water from the top much faster than you can warm it (cooling from above works WITH convection, warming from the top works against it).

Gary Hladik
May 18, 2014 2:01 pm

richardscourtney says (May 18, 2014 at 11:20 am): “In case anybody missed it, I write to commend reading all of the excellent post by Willis Eschenbach at May 18, 2014 at 9:11 am.”
Indeed. Anthony, moderators, may I suggest that you add an “UPDATE” to the original article with a direct link to Willis’s excellent rebuttal? That would save latecomers the trouble of browsing the entire comment thread and possibly missing Willis’s comment or Richard’s link to it.

Pamela Gray
May 18, 2014 2:20 pm

Kip, you would be right in that I am a critic of other extrinsic drivers of global warming, such as solar connections. Given that our climate is a complicated process, one title for each side paints with too much of the same color. I still prefer that it be said that I am a critic of anthropogenic CO2-driven climate warming. But to enlarge it, I would also say I am a critic of extrinsic solar driven climate warming and cooling trends. Neither of these say I am a critic of the greenhouse effect.

BioBob
May 18, 2014 2:30 pm

Why don’t we all just agree on Global Warming?
erm – because science is all about the fact that We do NOT know anything with complete certainty ?
Simple ? yes
Everything in climate science boils down to the massive problem of warmist’s dismissive treatment of uncertainty, error and their refusal to improve their science in that regard.

May 18, 2014 2:33 pm

Ah-ha, last big climate post I waded through on slashdot seemed to have new warmist talking points, now I see where they came from. At least now we can say their science is soft.

May 18, 2014 2:33 pm

It is a very interesting and illuminating development that this sort of approach to ‘den!ers’ is now being put forward. Pesonally I feel that in general, more open and honest debate about the science is a good thing, but at the same time many alarmists are far too extreme to be allowed under such an umbrella. The danger is that through compromise the gravy train will be encouraged to keep rolling.