Richard S. Courtney writes in comments on the Mann and misrepresentations thread…
Anthony:
In the same week as MBH98 was published I wrote an email on the ‘ClimateSkeptics’ circulation list. That email objected to the ‘hockeystick’ graph because the graph had an overlay of ‘thermometer’ data over the plotted ‘proxy’ data. This overlay was – I said – misleading because it was an ‘apples and oranges’ comparison: of course, I was not then aware of the ‘hide the decline’ (aka “Mike’s Nature trick”) issue.
Unknown to me, somebody copied my email to Michael Mann and he replied.
‘Climategate’ revealed that email from Michael Mann and it can be read here:
http://www.ecowho.com/foia.php?file=3046.txt&search=medieval
Mann’s response consists solely of personal abuse against me and, importantly, it does not address the issue which I had raised immediately upon seeing the ‘hockeystick’ graph. Hence, I am certain that the graphical malpractice of the ‘hockeystick’ was both witting and deliberate.
I’ve reproduced the email below, the redactions were in the linked content that Courtney cites. Mann’s claims about dataset splicing are laughable, as even the Muir Russell investigation (for the later version which appeared in the IPCC TAR) labeled it as such, as McIntyre notes:
Here are Muir Russell’s comments on the IPCC 2001 incident (of which Mann was Lead Author), which they somewhat conflated with the WMO 1999 incident of the “trick” email:
In relation to “hide the decline” we find that, given its subsequent iconic significance (not least the use of a similar figure in the TAR), the figure supplied for the WMO Report was misleading in not describing that one of the series was truncated post 1960 for the figure, and in not being clear on the fact that proxy and instrumental data were spliced together. We do not find that it is misleading to curtail reconstructions at some point per se, or to splice data, but we believe that both of these procedures should have been made plain – ideally in the figure but certainly clearly described in either the caption or the text.
Here is the email Courtney speaks of:
date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:41:12 +010 ???
from: Phil Jones <???@uea.ac.uk>
subject: Re: Global Surface Record Must Be Wrong
to: ???@uea.ac.uk,???@uea.ac.uk
>X-Sender: ???@holocene.evsc.virginia.edu
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:29:15 -0400
>To: ???@lanl.gov
>From: “Michael E. Mann” <???@virginia.edu>
>Subject: Re: Global Surface Record Must Be Wrong
>Cc: ???@geo.umass.edu, ???@uea.ac.uk
>
>Chick,
>
>This guys email is intentional deceipt. Our method, as you know, doesn’t
>include any “splicing of two different datasets”-this is a myth perptuated
>by Singer and his band of hired guns, who haven’t bothered to read our
>papers or the captions of the figures they like to mis-represent…
>
>Phil Jones, Ray Bradley, and Malcolm Hughes dispelled much of the mythology
>expressed below years ago.
>
>This is intentional misrepresentation. For his sake, I hope does not go
>public w/ such comments!
>
>mike
>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:38:35 +0100 ???(BST)
>>X-Envelope-From: ???@courtney01.cix.co.uk
>>X-Sender: ???@mail.compulink.co.uk
>>To: Chick Keller <???@lanl.gov>
>>From: COURTNEY <???@courtney01.cix.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Global Surface Record Must Be Wrong
>>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by
>holocene.evsc.virginia.edu id DAA27832
>>
>>Dear Chick:
>>
>>Your past performance demonstrates that your recent piece to Peter Dietze is
>>unworthy of you. Smears and inuendoes are not adequate substitutes for
>>evidence and reasoned argument. You say;
>>”As to Michael Mann’s “hocky stick” paleo-temperature graph, I realize why
>>many attack it for it puts the nail in the coffen of the argument that
>>recent natural variability is as large as what has been observed in the 20th
>>century.”
>>
>>No ! People attack the ‘hockey stick’ because it is uses an improper
>>procedure to assess inadequate data as a method to provide a desired result.
>>I have defended Mann et al. from accusations of scientific “fraud” because I
>>am willing to accept that this was done in naive stupidity, but I am not
>>willing to accept that is good science. As you say, “people like Mann,
>>Briffa, Jones, etc.” have conducted “careful work”, but doing the wrong
>>thing carefully does not make it right.
>>
>>The ‘hockey stick’ is obtained by splicing two different data sets. Similar
>>data to the earlier data set exists for up to near the present and could
>>have been spliced on, but this would not show the ‘hockey stick’ and was not
>>done.
>>
>>Also, it is not true to say, as you have;
>>”But, it’s going to take more than rhetoric about Europe’s Little Ice Age
>>and Medieval Warming to get around the careful work of people like Mann,
>>Briffa, Jones, etc.”
>>Nobody in their right mind is going to place more trust in the proxy data of
>>”Mann, Briffa, Jones, etc.” than in the careful – and taxed – tabulations in
>>the Doomesday Book. The Medieval Warm Period is documented from places
>>distributed around the globe, and it is not adequate to assert that it was
>>”not global” because it did not happen everywhere at exactly the same time:
>>the claimed present day global warming is not happening everywhere at the
>>exactly the same time. Indeed, you say;
>>”recent temperature anomalies show that, while the tropics is cooler than
>>usual due to La Niña, the rest of the world is pretty much still as warm as
>>in 1998.”
>>
>>It is historical revisionism to assert that the Little Ice Age and Medieval
>>Warming did not happen or were not globally significant. It will take much,
>>much more than analyses of sparse and debatable proxy data to achieve such a
>>dramatic overturning of all the historical and archaelogical evidence for
>>the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Those who wish to make
>>such assertions should explain why all the historical and archaelogical
>>evidence is wrong or – failing that – they should expect to be ridiculed.
>>
>>All the best
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>>Dear Peter,
>>>
>>>In a recent message to Tom Wigley you wrote:
>>>
>>>>”Nowadays, what is measured is mostly quite correct. This holds for the
>>>>counts of frogs, butterflies and for the MSU measurements as well as for
>>>>the ground station readings. What is seriously flawed, are the biased
>>>>*interpretations*. So the surface record may be not wrong at all and
>>>>part of the warming is indeed anthropogenic. Wrong is only the paradigm
>>>>that ground warming is mostly caused by CO2 – and that this warming has
>>>>to show up in the lower troposphere as well. It is striking how the
>>>>ground warming grid pattern coincides with winter heating (Vincent Gray)
>>>>- if the warming was caused by CO2 it should rather be evenly
>>>>distributed over the globe, MSU-detected and only being modified by
>>>>meteorological conditions. Note that this energy caused warming only
>>>>depends on our energy demand and does hardly increase with CO2
>>>>concentration. So this warming should neither be allocated to the CO2
>>>>increment nor be misused with future CO2 projections.”
>>>
>>>I have been looking at NCDC plots of global temperature anomalis divided
>>>into three regions- tropics (20N–20S) and the rest of the
>>>globe–(20N–90N) and (20S–90S). When looked at that way, recent
>>>temperature anomalies show that, while the tropics is cooler than usual due
>>>to La Niña, the rest of the world is pretty much still as warm as in 1998.
>>>This is particularly true of northern subtropics and southern subtropical
>>>oceans. The most recent data in fact show the following: for the period
>>>March-May 2000, the northern subtropics are the warmest march-may ever, and
>>>the southern subtropics are essentially as warm as in 1998. Note that this
>>>is not in the winter for either hemisphere. Thus, it would seem to be
>>>important not to make too much of the winter-only observations.
>>>
>>>As to Michael Mann’s “hocky stick” paleo-temperature graph, I realize why
>>>many attack it for it puts the nail in the coffen of the argument that
>>>recent natural variability is as large as what has been observed in the
>>>20th century. Gene Parker in the most recent Physics Today just pushed
>>>that point of view citing 20 year-old work as his only support. But, it’s
>>>going to take more than rhetoric about Europe’s Little Ice Age and Medieval
>>>Warming to get around the careful work of people like Mann, Briffa, Jones,
>>>etc. And more recently , Tom Crowley’s article in last week’s Science!!!
>>>Their work includes those acknowledged regional events (LIA and MWP) and
>>>still shows the 20th cent. to be anomalous. (I might add here that it also
>>>calls into question suggestions that solar variability has an additional
>>>indirect forcing amplification since that should have come out of the data.
>>>Instead most published studies show a significant solar influence but a
>>>moderate one.) And so the only way around recent thousand year paleo
>>>studies is for more comprehensive hemispheric and global studies that fill
>>>in acknowledged gaps and in addition show that climate variability is
>>>larger than recent studies show.
>>>
>>> Perhaps a more fruitful approach would be to ask what the magnitude
>>>of regional variations has been in the past 150 years. If there are no
>>>regions whose temperature variations were very far from the global average,
>>>then one could legitimately ask how clear anomalies such as the little ice
>>>age could have been sustained in the face of the larger hemispheric
>>>climate. As one example I might cite the eastern United States and perhaps
>>>a large region to the north east since 1940. It clearly has not
>>>participated in the global trend, so much so that urban heat island fans
>>>cite it as an example of how good records (the US) don’t show as much
>>>warming as bad records (the rest of the world).
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Charles. “Chick” F. Keller,
>>>Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics/University of California
>>>Mail Stop MS C-305
>>>Los Alamos National Laboratory
>>>Los Alamos, New Mexico, 87545
>>>???@lanl.gov
>>>Phone: (505)???
>>>FAX: (505)???
>>>http://www.igpp.lanl.gov/climate.html
>>>
>>>Every thoughtful man who hopes for the creation of a contemporary culture
>>>knows that this hinges on one central problem: to find a coherent relation
>>>between science and the humanities. –Jacob Bronowski
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>_________________________________________
> Professor Michael E. Mann
> Department of Environmental Sciences, Clark Hall
> University of Virginia
> Charlottesville, VA 22903
>_________________________________________
>e-mail: ???@virginia.edu Phone: (804)??? FAX: (804)???
> http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/people/mann.html
>
>
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 ???
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 ???
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email ???@uea.ac.uk
NR4 7TJ
UK
============================================================
UPDATE: Steve McIntyre responded in comments, saying he didn’t think the “splicing” issue in MBH98 was a substantial issue for him, and I responded to him, giving my reasons for why I disagree.
For the sake of completeness to discussing this issue, I’m elevating his comment and my response to the body of the post. – Anthony
Anthony, this post has numerous errors, none of which should be made by people interested in this topic. It is very disappointing to read such material.
In Mann et al 1998 (as Jean S first figured out), to calculate the smooth, Mann padded the MBH98 proxy reconstruction after its 1980 end point with instrumental data. Mann only used the smooth up to 1980. This was “Mike’s Nature trick”. Jean S observed the irony of this procedure, given Mann’s protestations against splicing, but the effect was relatively subtle. Contra Courtney’s conflation of “hide the decline aka Mike’s Nature trick, Mike’s Nature trick applied in Mann et al 1998 had NOTHING to do with “hide the decline” – which was an issue with the Briffa reconstruction.
Further, in Courtney’s 1998 email, he said:
The ‘hockey stick’ is obtained by splicing two different data sets. Similar data to the earlier data set exists for up to near the present and could have been spliced on, but this would not show the ‘hockey stick’ and was not done.
In the Mann et al 1998 diagram criticized in Courtney’s email, the proxy reconstruction and the observed data are distinguished by being plotted in different colors or different line type. In other words, they were not “spliced” in the diagram. In Courtney’s recent email to Anthony, he says that the above email “objected to the ‘hockeystick’ graph because the graph had an overlay of ‘thermometer’ data over the plotted ‘proxy’ data. This overlay was – I said – misleading because it was an ‘apples and oranges’ comparison: of course,” I, for one, would never have guessed that this was the criticism being made in the original email. While Mann’s response was marred by his all-too-typical invective, I can well understand why he rejected the allegation in Courtney’s email.
In Courtney’s recent covering email to Anthony, he now characterizes his earlier objection as an objection to proxy reconstructions being plotted on the same graph as observations as follows:
That email objected to the ‘hockeystick’ graph because the graph had an overlay of ‘thermometer’ data over the plotted ‘proxy’ data. This overlay was – I said – misleading because it was an ‘apples and oranges’ comparison: of course, I was not then aware of the ‘hide the decline’ (aka “Mike’s Nature trick”) issue.
While, as noted above, it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, for a contemporary reader to discern this meaning, this criticism is equally invalid in my opinion. I, for one, absolutely do not take issue with plotting a proxy reconstruction on the same scale as observations. I and others take issue with the “divergence problem” precisely because when one plots the Briffa reconstruction against observed temperatures in the 20th century, the two plots diverge. According to Courtney’s criticism, it would be invalid to do such a plot. This is absurd. This does not mean that I endorse the muddiness of Mann’s graphics or other defects. Only that I, for one, do not take issue with plotting a reconstruction and observations on the same scale. On the contrary, it is something that I’ve done on many occasions. As I said to Courtney at CA on this point, if I’m unconvinced on this issue, I can’t imagine why a judge or jury would be convinced.
In the WMO 1999 graphic, Jones deleted values of the Briffa reconstruction after 1950 or so (the decline), spliced instrumental temperature to the end of the record, smoothed the combination and plotted the spliced version (without peeling back to 1950 as in Mike’s Nature trick.)
Muir Russell criticized the truncation and splicing of data in WMO1999 as follows:
the figure supplied for the WMO Report was misleading in not describing that one of the series was truncated post 1960 for the figure, and in not being clear on the fact that proxy and instrumental data were spliced together.
However, he did not take issue with plotting proxy reconstructions and observations on the same graphic. (Not that Muir Russell would be definitive on this.)
There are important issues in connection with the Mann corpus. This is not one of them. Too often, Mann’s opponents make irrelevant and easily rebutted criticisms. Unfortunately, this makes it easier for Mann to avoid more substantive criticisms. For a full explication of the differences between the various incidents, I refer people to the following CA post: http://climateaudit.org/2011/03/29/keiths-science-trick-mikes-nature-trick-and-phils-combo/
========================================================================
REPLY: Thanks for your opinion and clarifications Steve. Bear in mind that Courtney wrote this before the “trick” and truncation was known. While I often defer to your superior knowledge on the subject of MBH98 it is my respectfully differing opinion that plotting the two datasets together (proxy reconstruction and instrumental temperatures) is indeed problematic and misleading in that both techniques have different samplings and sensitivities to temperature.
Instrumental temperature is much more sensitive than tree ring derived proxy temperature, which has a long time domain and is not exclusively a representation of temperature, due to equal if not greater sensitivity to other variables, as I pointed out here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/28/a-look-at-treemometers-and-tree-ring-growth/
While Courtney’s complaint is most certainly incomplete in today’s perspective, we shouldn’t just say that plotting two dissimilar datasets on the same chart without proper caveats is a proper practice.
An analog to the spliced combination plot of Mann’s MBH98 graph in today’s climate arena might be this: suppose somebody wants to argue that hurricanes in the NH are becoming more frequent, and they are the more frequent now than in the last 1000 years.
One way to do this is to look at historical reports of hurricanes in literature, newspapers, magazines and other historical writings. These would be a “proxy” for the actual frequency of hurricanes in a given year. Suppose that the researcher was able to find enough reports to to make what looks like a viable dataset, but that instead of using historical writings to determine frequency of hurricanes in the 20th century, the actual record of named hurricanes (essentially observations) was used, such as this graph, which has a nice “hockey stick” shape implying that hurricanes frequency had increased dramatically in the late 20th century.

Arguably, that’s incomplete, showing only the Atlantic, but it’s the best I can do on short notice before I head to work this morning.
The combination of the two datasets, historical literature accounts, plus named storms in the north Atlantic might very well look much like Mann’s flat section of the hockey stick up to about 1925…mostly flat, maybe a slight increasing trend. It would likely look a lot like this graph you plotted in the CA discussion of Besonen et al 2008 (which has other issues independent of this discussion, I’m only using it as an example of what such a graph for this discussion might look like).

To the layman and even to some scientists, they might take such a construct of hurricane historical accounts (proxy) and named storms (observations) as being proof that hurricane frequency is indeed dramatically increasing in the 20th century.
But the issue is sampling and sensitivity. As you’ve pointed out many times, low sampling and/or selected sampling of proxies leads to spurious results when extrapolated to a larger scale (regional to global for example).
From a sensitivity standpoint, since human literature is less frequent as a we go back in time, we’d expect any dataset of historical hurricane accounts to have lower sensitivity to the actual number of hurricanes in any given year simply due to population density and the lack of communications. Many storms would go unreported.
Even in the 20th century data, as shown in the Pew graph above, this effect is likely, due to the early part of the century having lower population, and less ability to observe hurricanes due to a lower level of technology. I talk about this effect in the reporting bias of “extreme weather” here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/19/why-it-seems-that-severe-weather-is-getting-worse-when-the-data-shows-otherwise-a-historical-perspective/ So even the Pew graph would almost certainly have a lower representation for named storms in the pre-satellite era.
So, for the purposes of my exercise, knowing that the two datasets for hurricane frequency would have different samplings and sensitivities to actual hurricane frequency in the NH, would it be proper to put these two datasets together into a single graph to argue that hurricane frequency in the NH is the “highest ever” at the endpoint of the graph?
From my viewpoint it would not be, because these two datasets have significantly different samplings and sensitivities to actual hurricanes. The layman doesn’t likely know this, and many of the media that might seize on such a graph probably wouldn’t note this as they often work from press releases. A press release about this hurricane frequency “paper” probably wouldn’t trumpet the fact that the two datasets are greatly dissimilar, and that as you go back in time, the sampling is less, and the sensitivity in the last part of the graph to hurricanes is dramatically higher than any part of the record.
And that’s why I see the splicing in MBH98 as another “trick”. Putting the two dissimilar datasets together implied they have equal sampling and sensitivity to temperature, when they clearly don’t, and the public and the media ran with that visual almost entirely without questioning it, because even though the colors were different, many newspapers back then didn’t reproduce in color, and many people simply take the graph’s “total shape” at face value, without realizing the differences between the two datasets.
(added, here is what a newsprint version of MBH98 might look like…note the dataset delineations disappear, laymen and politicians certainly wouldn’t be able to see beyond the total graph shape in B&W))

To me, that’s just as wrong as the truncation and the overlay issues.
Plotting/splicing two similar datasets of equal sampling and sensitivity in my mind is not an issue. Plotting two greatly dissimilar datasets with unequal sampling and sensitivity, is an issue.

Steven Mosher:
There are several assertions and no information in your post at May 12, 2014 at 11:35 am.
I knew nothing of the above article until I saw it. This thread exists because Anth0ny saw my post on another thread, he copied it plus its link, then he wrote commentary on it, and he provided all that as the above article. You accuse me of “buffoonery” because of that: clearly, your arrogance and stupidity are unbounded.
You say of me
Clearly, I “understand manns work” better than you and you do not state any “real problems” (although think you are one such).
I linked to a climategate email which is so not “relevant to the issues at hand” that we have this thread, and it frightens you so much that you are trying to deflect discussion it.
Whatever Steve thinks, Steyn’s lawyers will decide whether Mann having lied about MBH98 is pertinent to their case.
As the climategate email shows, I have a “history of writing on these issues” based on my “familiarity with the data” and “the methods” which goes back to 1998.
Please desist from making your silly and disruptive posts which say much about you but nothing about me.
Richard
Friends:
It seems that some people want to discuss other matters than the climategate email because they think there are other matters which have more importance concerning faults with MBH98 and subsequent ‘hockey stick’ graphs.
Perhaps some of those other matters do have more importance and perhaps they don’t: their relative importance is a matter of opinion.
What can be said is that the public obtain their information on such things from the MSM. And the MSM will not get excited about e.g. “overfitted models typically failed out of sample”. But the MSM can both understand and be interested in Michael Mann having lied about the method which produces his ‘hockey sticks’.
For that reason if for no other, I agree with whomever collated and released the climategate emails and decided the email quoted in the above article has sufficient importance to be included.
Richard
@Steve M
” Ironically, one can validly accuse Mann in Mann et al 2008 of splicing proxy and observed data, as he did this in Mann et al 2008. It seems foolish to me to instead make an untrue accusation about MBH98.”
I take your point on the precision of language. There is another test. I saw the chart. I was led to believe that the proxy data ended and that temperature data was pasted on top to continue it to the present time (in 1997). I was in fact misled because the proxy data set available was truncated in order to hide its actual values. The chart misled members of the public like me.
People say (including here) that later data was spliced onto the former proxy data. It would be more correct to say that the truest description of the chart is one of measured temperatures with proxy data spliced onto it, identified by a different colour. The intention of the chart, and the truncation, and the title and notes was to have the reader consider the real temperature data to be a true representation of reality, and for the proxy data to be a good representation of reality going ‘back in time’. But the majority of the chart is not a true reflection of temperature and the author knew that so he truncated a select portion the data to hide its general inappropriateness.
We now know the measurements were real, but the proxy was not. How then to make them ‘fit’? By cutting off the divergent recent proxy data and having them meet at that point where they agreed. Mann did not do that to inform the public. He sought to hide the ‘real information’ which as pointed out above was to have most people think that tree rings are a reasonable proxy for temperature because ‘they fit’ so well. Tree rings are apparently not a reasonable proxy for temperature and he sought to conceal his discovery which is an attack on science.
It is a temperature chart electronically glued to a bad temperature proxy the author knew to be bad (because they didn’t match in the 20th century). That is explanation enough for me.
PS I felt Mann et al 2008 has a pretty clear MWP in it.
It is a bit difficult to wade through the strident rhetoric which appears to be flowing. I’m not sure why the discussion has to be so overwrought. My takeaway is this:
Whether you would call what Mann did “splicing” or not seems to be a bit of a quibble. But, Steve McIntyre’s point seems to be that Mann can use that subjectivity as a means to derail criticism, and it is better to use precise, universally agreed upon descriptors to prosecute the case against him.
That seems reasonable enough, though I suspect there are no strictly objective terms which cannot be twisted by Mann, and that twisted rationalization seized upon by his peanut gallery as a means of thwarting the justice he is due.
From that perspective, an easily grasped term like “spliced” may better serve. Rather than letting his side dictate the terms of the discussion, perhaps we should insist that what he did was, indeed, a splice, and allow no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The argument over that could grow heated, and become a focal point of the debate, pulling more people in to view it.
There is no bad publicity. I think the majority of people seeing what was done would readily agree that it is, by any practical measure, a splice.
richardscourtney says:
May 12, 2014 at 12:49 pm
‘And the MSM will not get excited about e.g. “overfitted models typically failed out of sample”.’
It seems we are thinking along the same lines. First rate 😉
– – – – – – – – –
richardscourtney,
From your comments in the two blog posts referenced above and in this post, I take your position to be as follows:
1. You are strictly focused on MBH98 in both your 2000 email and in your criticism of Mann’s comments about that email of yours.
2. You maintain there is a serious violation of principle in the scientific process used in MBH98 which (in your words) is their graphical comparison / presentation and then evaluation of “apples and oranges”; where you find the “apples and oranges” to be thermometer data and temperature proxy data.
3. You maintain #2 above was (in your words) “graphical malpractice of the ‘hockeystick’” and it “was both witting and deliberate”.
In item #2, it is not a fundamental epistemic issue when different datasets are plotted in the same chart if they are clearly labeled as being different; MBH did label them. In item #2 there is an epistemic issue in use of colloquial analogies like your use of “apples and oranges” instead of just using the specific words and entities of the climate that one is talking about; such analogies are scientifically unprofessional and are misleading.
As to item #3, it does not follow from #2. Be that as it may, however, I think that Mann (when he was a TAR lead author) does appear to totally embrace the purpose of the IPCC assessment process which is to myopically prove significant AGW from fossil fuel instead of just studying the Earth Atmosphere System objectively and letting reality take us observationally where it will to new theories.
Postscript => Richard, you and I might agree on one thing. That might be that Mann is focused primarily on creating a modern climate focused mythology of good and evil by mimicking climate science where the body of his problematic research is a means to that myth building end.
John
[Snip. “beckleybud” and “H Grouse” sockpuppet. Banned. ~mod.]
One point for Mann’s chart, is that if I take the older HadCRUT3 global average temperature prior to the 2012 major up-adjustment, and I extend the instrumental record back before 1980 so it actually overlaps with the proxy plot, there is a nearly perfect correlation, though my scaling is approximate:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/10coys8.jpg
I made this expecting to find a mismatch worthy of a chuckle, but instead found why bad math be damned, it *looks* like a winner and certainly Mann isn’t hiding a gross mismatch between the two different types of data after all, which technicalities and terminology aside, would have been the real scandal.
John Whitman:
I have answered your misrepresentations in your post at May 12, 2014 at 1:15 pm.
Read my post at May 12, 2014 at 12:01 pm.
History suggests your misrepresentations are probably intentional so this is my final response to them.
Richard
REPLY: Richard, this is the point at which you start becoming annoying. Dial it back. – Anthony
NikFromNYC:
Your post at May 12, 2014 at 1:52 pm says
Yes, the proxy data sets were selected to do that using the (ridiculous) assumption that the proxy values which did that would have done the same previously and subsequently.
Richard
[snip – no – Anthony]
“Year by year data from tree rings, corals, ice cores and historical data” That particular label bothers me because data from corals and ice cores (at least) probably is yearly by any stretch. Also, how do they relate a width of something like a tree ring to a particular temperature. Seems to be pretty arbitrary to to assign a specific temp to any one of these things to even attempt to tie the end of the proxy data to the beginning of the temperature data.
And why did the temperature data begin in the early 1900s? Fairly reliable temperature, although not from extensive sites, data was being accumulated around the world before then.
I’ll never understand why grown up scientists give any credence to tree ring data. It should be given the big boot, not credibility, it was never more than a means to mislead the gullible.
Steve McIntyre says: May 12, 2014 at 11:43 am
[i] no one reasonably takes issue with a plot comparing observations to “estimates” or with an analysis of the residuals. This is what statisticians do. [/i]
I have 2 issues with this:
1) are we comparing “results” (outputs) of a model with observations, or are we comparing two observation sets (albeit one “reconstructed”)?
2) when using a graph to compare two time series , wouldn’t it be (more) appropriate to show only the common time interval?
richardscourtney says:
May 12, 2014 at 8:58 am
“Say what!?
My original email to Keller said
The ‘hockey stick’ is obtained by splicing two different data sets. Similar data to the earlier data set exists for up to near the present and could have been spliced on, but this would not show the ‘hockey stick’ and was not done.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Has anyone produced a graph that shows what the correct, non spliced data would have looked like side by side the splice?
Anth0ny:
re your comment to me at May 12, 2014 at 2:01 pm.
I have tried to answer points because the thread derived from a post I had made on a previous thread. But if my contributions are “annoying” then they are not useful so I will withdraw from the thread.
However, I trust that everybody will recognise my withdrawal is not any capitulation to any post(s) of Mosher and/or Whitman.
Richard
“UPDATE: Steve McIntyre responded in comments, saying he didn’t think the “splicing” issue in MBH98 was a substantial issue for him, and I responded to him, giving my reasons for why I disagree.
For the sake of completeness to discussing this issue, I’m elevating his comment and my response to the body of the post. – Anthony”
Wonderful work, Anthony. You are right on the money. Also, you work really hard. Thanks.
Steven Mosher says:
May 12, 2014 at 6:45 am
“Err.
Why dilute the excellent attacks that mcintyre makes
On mann and his years of devotion by giving
Attention to courtney. Read the mail. And his claims about the mail.
Courtney is a distraction. He doesnt even make a cogent case.
Why. Why distract people from mcintyres cogent case
With this self aggrandizing crap from a third rate thinker.”
So, what are you implying? It seems to me that you are telling Anthony that when Steve is making a major post at his site then Anthony should not permit a post on the topic at WUWT. How do I have that wrong? I dare say that your suggestion will not set well with Anthony. And I greatly hope that your suggestion is not an expression of your character.
richardscourtney says:
May 12, 2014 at 2:41 pm
Let it rest. The discussion has gone far beyond anything in your claims.
I think a number of folks are falsely conflating the modern divergence in the Briffa reconstruction with what was plotted in MBH 98. I could be wrong (paleo reconstructions really aren’t my thing), but I though that the proxy data plotted in MBH 98 by and large ended where most of the proxy data ended, and modern divergent data was not suppressed.
Steve McIntyre says:
May 12, 2014 at 12:07 pm
“Anthony asked: “What would be a more precise word for what occurred in MBH98?”
There are a huge number of MBH issues and not quickly summarized. The largest problem – and we didn’t articulate this at the time though it is latent – is the lack of consistency between proxies. The “proxies” are not temperature plus red noise -as required in Mannian and similar models. They are something else.
Otherwise, the most serious issues in MBH98 remain the issues raised in our 2005 articles (especially the EE article): overfitting ….”
It is interesting the criticism of R.Courtney by McIntyre and Mosher as it pertains to his capabilities vis a vis the subject of climate science, M. Mann’s methods, and the like- indeed one could say they believe him to be an interloper, now basking in the glow of McIntyre’s and Mosher’s achievements. Before we go too far down that path, let us look at a part of Richard’s credentials on the subject:
http://heartland.org/richard-courtney
“….He is an expert peer reviewer for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and in November 1997 (!!!! GP) chaired the Plenary Session of the Climate Conference in Bonn. In June 2000 he was one of 15 scientists invited from around the world to give a briefing on climate change at the US Congress in Washington DC, and he then chaired one of the three briefing sessions.
His achievements have been recognized by The UK’s Royal Society for Arts and Commerce, PZZK (the management association of Poland’s mining industry), and The British Association for the Advancement of Science. Having been the contributing technical editor of CoalTrans International, he is now on the editorial board of Energy & Environment. He is a founding member of the European Science and Environment Forum (ESEF).”
Hmmm editorial board of EE where McIntyre’s 2005 paper was published; involved with IPCC – chaired the 1997 Plenary Session….an invited scientist to brief the US Congress in June 2000…. This man is not an interloper and to have resisted temptations with this long an association with the IPCC….
Gentlemen, I provide this snippet to elevate the discussion a bit and quieten egos. How many of Richard’s detractors have been engaging in the debate for almost 20 yrs? Half that time? I’m sure not that many. How many who had been involved with the IPPC at length were not seduced into the cause. Few. Like you who fight the good fight, Richard’s integrity in battle on the lonely side of the debate is uncompromised. He was a pioneer when I thought the first real opposition began less than a decade ago.
Zeke Hausfather says:
May 12, 2014 at 3:21 pm
Number one, you introduced an irrelevancy. It does not matter where most of the proxy data ended.
Number two, the proxy data from roughly 1962 to 1998 could not be understood as supporting the hypothesis of warming. My recollection might be incorrect, but I believe that Briffa was the person responsible for those who actually collected the data. Briffa had nearly forty years of data that ran against the hypothesis of warming. Probably the most important finding of his work is that the variety of tree rings in question are not reliable proxies for temperature. He had a duty to publish those facts, as did Mann and the rest of the team.
– – – – – – – – – – –
richardscourtney,
I am sincerely sorry to hear of your voluntary withdrawal from the thread which you announced in your comment to our host on May 12, 2014 at 12:01 pm.
I find no substance to your claim to have pre-addressed in your comment to Steve McIntyre all of my following points: my general epistemic observations on a MBH98 graphic; my critique of your use of analogy in a scientific discussions; and my finding of no logic in your very specific attribution of graphic ‘malpractice’ on the subject MBH98 graph.
To other commenters who are in essential concordance with richardscourtney’s positions – Given richardscourtney’s withdrawal, can one of you address his claim.
John
Theo Goodwin,
It matters where the proxy data ended if folks are accusing Mann et al of using “splicing” to suppress divergent proxy data. Briffa was not an author of MBH 98, and as far as I know his tree ring data was not used in Mann’s reconstruction. Hence my statement that people are conflating Briffa and the divergence problem with the MBH 98 hockeystick, when they are in fact two different things.
richardscourtney says:May 12, 2014 at 8:58 am
Steve McIntyre says:May 12, 2014 at 11:26 am
Anthony Watts says:May 12, 2014 at 11:29 am
“Thanks Steve, your point is better understood now. What would be a more precise word for what occurred in MBH98?”
splice [splahys]
verb (used with object), spliced, splic·ing.
1.to join together or unite (two ropes or parts of a rope) by the interweaving of strands.
2.to unite (timbers, spars, or the like) by overlapping and binding their ends.
3.to unite (film, magnetic tape, or the like) by butting and cementing.
4.to join or unite.
5.Genetics. to join (segments of DNA or RNA) together.
Since the data sets are not interwoven or overlapped, clearly def 1 & 2 do not apply.
Since the two data sets are united by being butted or joined together, it is fair to say they are ‘Spliced”.
Richard is correct: it is a splice.
Steve is right: it is not always a wrong practice.
In the case of Mann, the graph is based on a false premise about tree rings which are affected by multiple independent variables besides temperature.
Lets put aside semantics and concentrate on the fallacies of Mann.