An ethical challenge for Greg Laden – put your money where your mouth is

We’ve had issues with Mr. Laden before, and being called on it hasn’t changed his bad behavior, hopefully he’ll learn something this time. This is a pretty simple black and white issue, so I’ll do it with bullet points.

  • Yesterday, Mr. Laden claimed WUWT had sunk to a “new low” for daring to question the wind speeds of Typhoon Haiyan hyped in the media with ground measurements reported by the Philippine Meteorological Agency. Our position was the media poorly reported on the storm, made egregious errors that we documented, and that this led to inflated wind speed numbers given to the public, such as 235 kilometers per hour  being reported as 235 miles per hour, to give an example. 
  • He further claimed that we were “disrespectful” for not immediately updating the death toll to the new estimate of 10,000, which was the result of a political meeting in the governor’s office. I said we’d stick with the last report of the Red Cross number of 1200 as I trust them because their mission has no agenda other than aid. The 10,000 estimate may be met, or even exceeded, and if so we’ll report it then. (Now at 1774 as of 1015AM 11/11) UPDATE: 11/12 7AM Philippine president Aquino says to CNN: Typhoon Haiyan deaths likely 2,000 to 2,500 — not 10,000
  • He added in a comment:

Let me ask you this but you better answer quick because the ground is sliding from underneath you as I type this. How important is 1,200 vs. tens of thousands? If it turns out to be tens of thousands instead of 1,200 will you STFU forever? Please?

  • He then proceeded to write a long winded blog post at “ScienceBlogs”, and launch a Twitter tirade, from the position that he had some sort of moral high ground. As one WUWT commenter put it: The leftie pose of “We care more about real people than you do” is on full display.
  • Yet, despite that angry posturing from that self-imagined moral high ground, Mr. Laden never once offered to help the people of the Philippines as WUWT has with the links to the Philippine Red Cross in the side bar graphic and in blog post links. Other bloggers such as Bob Tisdale have followed my lead with links in postings. Even 350.org’s Bill McKibben has thanked WUWT for providing him this info as he was pushing the “Save the Children Organization”, which isn’t disaster equipped.
  • I waited over 24 hours to see if Mr. Laden had a conscience, and if he would offer his blog to help the people of Philippines or was simply interested in his holier than thou tirade against WUWT. So far, he has not.
  • I made a donation to the Philippine Red Cross.

Red_Cross_Donation_PHP

I chose 5000 Philippine Pesos (PHP) from the menu, which works out to $118 USD as it allows Mr. Laden and others who may donate to easily match the contribution. The maximum value on the Red Cross donation page in the menu is 10,000 PHP, or about $230 USD.

Between his donation (assuming he makes one), his readers donations (assuming he pitches it to them), and my donation along with WUWT reader donations, that should add up to a significant and useful sum, but any amount people may choose is useful and appreciated. Feel free to note your donation in comments if you choose.

The challenge:

I challenge Mr. Laden to meet or exceed my donation, and to post a link and graphic on his blog to the donation page for the Philippine Red Cross, and encourage his readers to contribute.

He is welcome to use this graphic I created:

Give Generously

The link is: http://ushare.redcross.org.ph/

Be sure to select the campaign first in the menu pulldown to be Supertyphoon Yolanda (Haiyan), then select the monetary amount and the payment method.

I also encourage WUWT readers to donate if they feel so inclined. It will be interesting to see if any other blogs who have been critical of WUWT pitch in to help. I’m betting few will as it isn’t in their nature but would be happy to be proven wrong.

Full disclosure: My wife’s maternal side of family is from the Philippines, and we have learned that one of her relatives there has lost a home in the storm. We have no word on the others there at this time.

==============================================================

UPDATE: Laden’s claims in his tirade aren’t supported by actual science and data, he writes:

But Watts and Homewood don’t want storms to be important for the simple reason that the best models strongly suggest that there will be more storms … especially in the Pacific, where Haiyan struck, over coming decades because of the changes to climate that humans are carrying out and that Anthony Watts and Paul Homewood deny to be real.

This paper shows the reality from data – no trend:

Kubota, H. and Chan, J.C.L. 2009. Interdecadal variability of tropical cyclone landfall in the Philippines from 1902 to 2005. Geophysical Research Letters 36: 10.1029/2009GL038108.

“Despite global warming during the 20th century the number of tropical cyclones annually making landfall in the Philippines did not experience any net change. All variability was merely oscillatory activity around a mean trend of zero slope”

kubotachan2

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rokshox

1000 PhP is about 20 bucks (US bucks).
REPLY: Yes I chose 5000, which works out to $118USD as it allowed Mr. Laden and others who may donate to easily match the contribution. the maximum value on the Red Cross donation page in the menu is 10,000 PHP.
Between his readers and mine, that should add up to a significant and useful sum, but any amount people may choose is useful and appreciated.
– Anthony

As always Anthony…you’re the best!

MrX

Anthony, nice gesture! I matched your donation.

Pete Olson

1000 php donated – thx for the heads up…

Jquip

Adversarial Altruism? Well. Done.
/slow clap

ckb42

The issue of wind speed is one of record keeping. The issue of storm damage is unrelated. The top wind speed of the storm could be 50mph or 350mph, but the damage exists regardless. In other words, asserting the wind speed was not reported accurately does not assert that there was less damage than there is. The same can be said of media coverage and reporting on the storm. If the actual speed turns out to be only 140mph it does not make wrecked homes pop back up, if it is 190mph more do not fall down.
The equivalence between the discussion of the media reporting of facts about the storm and doubt of storm damage is a false one.
REPLY: Sorry, you are off the mark. The word “damage” does not appear anywhere in that blog post, it was not raised as an issue of doubt by myself or Paul Homewood in that post. The issue was wind speed and sloppy reporting, making wind speeds seem higher than they actually were.
I see you’d rather argue than help out, which is the point of this challenge, though I’m happy to be proven wrong on that point.
– Anthony

pat

anthony,
i had forgotten all about greg laden, but it seems he’s still around, and just as vile:
10 Nov: Minneapolis Star Tribune: On Weather by Paul Douglas
(SCROLL DOWN)Should There Be A Category 6 For Hurricanes? Greg Laden brings up the pros and cons in a post at scienceblogs.com; here’s a clip: “…There is resistance to this proposal that comes from two mostly distinct places. One is the community of those who deny the science of climate change, or climate change itself, or science itself. Their motivation is to not allow the so called “alarmists” (those who are alarmed at the changes happening on our planet) to have a tool to point out that severe weather can be very severe indeed. The other is the subset of meteorologists who are actually correct, in a way, when they point out that the Saffir Simpson scale, the scale with the five categories, can’t be extended because of the way it is built, but who are very incorrect, I think, when they point out that extending the scale would damage the most important available tool for scaring people into running away (or staying indoors)…”
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/231365101.html
REPLY: Thanks, how about a tip to the Red Cross to offset his vileness? – Anthony

If the actual speed turns out to be only 140mph it does not make wrecked homes pop back up.
No it just means that the whole event is well within the realm of what anyone might expect without the CAGW alarmism. IT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR NEED TO CONTINUE TO CREATE WEALTH WITH ENERGY SO THAT WE CAN EFFICTIVELY DEAL WITH THESE INEVITABLE, NATURAL, SITUATIONS.

HGW xx/7

Of course Laden et al are going to stamp their feet and feign bleeding heart syndrome if you dare question the horror stories they so love to paint. You’re shooing away at their stunning one-act offensive: blind emotion.
Meanwhile, as Goofus is screaming at his spittle-flecked monitor, Gallant knows there is a place to act on emotion and a time to battle using reason. Case in point: call out factual inaccuracies while clicking the donate button to help those in need. I believe those in this camp are termed rational beings.
Kudos to you Anthony.

Peter Miller

Anthony,
ABC News (the US one) confirmed your figure from the Philippines Meteorological Agency:
“The local weather bureau had a lower reading, saying the storm’s speed at landfall had sustained winds at 234 kilometers (145 miles) per hour, with gusts of 275 kph (170.88 mph). The bureau takes measures based on longer periods of time.”
Doubtless the ABC (the Australian one), the BBC, the Guardian and all the other left wing leaning media will continue with the much higher figure. After all, scary is good in their eyes.
I have been trying to find the original source of the much quoted higher figure of wind speeds of “195mph and gusts up to 235mph”. It seems to be an offshore, not onshore, prediction by the USAF Joint Typhoon Warning Centre, based in Pear Harbour. In a real world, the reporting of an estimated prediction of offshore wind speed would be considered unreliable and actual observations would be used instead, but – big sigh – this is the world of ‘climate science’, where prediction is always so much more important than observation.

David, UK

Laden is not just vile, he’s incredibly immature. I mean, really: “If it turns out to be tens of thousands instead of 1,200 will you STFU forever?” How old is this guy? 12?

steveta_uk

UK Red Cross doesn’t seem to have the option to donate in PHP, but £80 seems like the corresponding amount, so I’ve gone for that one.
Thanks to Anthony, as I’d probably not have thought about a donation had it not been on WUWT.

Aynsley Kellow

ckb @ 11:59 pm:
As with Katrina (a Cat 3 at landfall, as I recall), most of the damage appears to have resulted from the storm surge, which some reports are putting at up to 5m. As with Katrina, and as Roger Pielke Jr has repeatedly shown, the main determinants of damage to assets (and loss of life) are features of topography, population, location of assets and human behaviour (successful evacuation, etc). All these factors convert hazards in to risks.

tobyglyn

Thanks for the prompt Anthony, donation made.

rokshox

I wasn’t suggesting anything about your donation. I went to the donation site and had no idea what I would be committing to since amounts are in PhP. I only posted that so others could estimate what a donation would cost in a familiar currency.

Dylan

This may be more applicable to the other blog, but I may as well post this here.
I do not know whether you simply are mistaken, accidentally misinterpreted something, or are purposefully trying to mislead people here, but the assertion that Haiyan was at it’s height, simply a high end Catergory 4 equivalent cyclone, is false.
In terms of the the PAGASA advisories listing Haiyan as a Catergory 4 equivalent cyclone, this is a understandable mistake. PAGASA uses a different measuring standard when reporting the windspeeds of tropical cyclones, compared to the NHC and the JTWC. Instead of using a 1-minute average that these two agencies use, PAGASA uses a 10-minute sustained average. Now the effect of this in terms of reporting is that their estimation of the strength of tropical cyclones is usually substantially less than that of what the aforementioned forecasting agencies would report.
To give some recent examples, Typhoon Megi (deemed Juan by PAGASA) was reported by the weather agency to have winds on the ten-minute scale of 225 kph (140 mph) which in the one minute scale would be approximately 185 mph-190 mph, a windspeed which was confirmed by both satellite measures done by the JWTC and by aircraft recon inside the storm, making Megi officially a 185 mph Catergory 5 hurricane equivalent cyclone.
For reference and citation, the wiki page for Megi and a press article from the time of landfall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Megi_(2010)
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/203678/news/nation/super-typhoon-juan-makes-landfall-in-northern-sierra-madre
Example #2, Typhoon Bopha (PAHASA designation Pablo), another Catergory 5 equivalent cyclone that impacted the Philippines in the past year. At the time of landfall, Bopha was reported by PAGASA to have winds at the ten minute windspeed at roughly 175-185 kph (110-115 mph) while in the one-minute scale maximum sustained winds were recorded to be 175 mph, per satellite estimates by the JWTC.
Wikipedia and news paper article for reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Bopha
http://www.radyonatin.com/story.php?storyid=3277
Now, as far as I know, the record of these two storms holding Catergory 5 intensity is not in dispute, so based on this we can extrapolate that the 235 kph (147 mph) sustained wind estimate by PAGASA pretty much lines up with the 195 mph sustained wind estimate by the JTWC, and based on that number, the estimate of gusts up to 235 mph is not an unreasonable estimate either.
I do not mean to seem nit-picky or in any way insulting towards your work, my point is simply that based upon the comparisons between PAGASA and the JWTC on the estimation of the top windspeeds of tropical cyclones, the assertion that the 195 mph sustained wind and 235 mph sustained gust reporting in news outlets is not any attempt to hype Typhoon Haiyan, but simply confusion between the 1-minute and 10-minute sustained wind measuring systems.

Colin Kirk

Thanks Anthony, donation made.

Thanks Tony for your kind words and donation. Greg Laden is a fool.
Still though, I believe the numbers of casualties will exceed the 10.000.
My wife have a lot of relatives in the God forsaken town of Guiuan, that is STILL isolated 4 full days after the typhoon made landfall at exact Guiuan.
Pictures are coming out but no relief is getting in 🙁
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10151810274753212&set=a.10151810268223212.1073741829.727513211&type=1&theater

Jon

It’s now 235 Km/s ?

Jon

Why build something at al in typhoon or hurricane alley? What are they trying to prove?

Jimbo

Full disclosure: My wife’s maternal side of family is from the Philippines, and we have learned that one of her relatives there has lost a home in the storm. We have no word on the others there at this time.

I bet Laden didn’t know this. Neither did I! Assumptions are the Mother of All FUps.

Dean Gardiner

Done. Matched your donation.

Thanks for this post.
My sister-in-law and a large portion of my extended family are from a fishing village on the north side of the island that was hit by the typhoon. She had built a concrete block one-room house there two years ago that provided shelter — and thankfully everyone in the village lived though the storm. We will be sending money directly to family there.
I was disgusted that getting honest news about this extreme event was almost impossible because Western news media only wanted to make political hay off the pain and suffering of those in the Philippines. Karma should take care of those despicable cretins someday.
Thanks for printing the truth about wind-speeds and magnitude — and thanks for being a site that I can trust to tell me the truth about damages and other things.

TimC

Donation made via Oxfam (GB) – UK charity 202918 – whose priority at present seems to be getting clean water supplies to site, both for drinking and sanitation. Essential, I’d say.
If I may add a note for any UK taxpayers here, Oxfam’s site seems to be the simplest to make any donations under the “gift aid” scheme (adding 25% to the gift value, as the UK gov allows the charity also to reclaim the donor’s basic rate income tax paid on the donation) – but you have to certify that you pay UK income or capital gains tax each (tax) year sufficient to cover the tax reclaimed on all charitable donations made in the year.
And thanks for the prod Anthony; very timely.

Michael Larkin

Charity should be anonymous.
REPLY: Yes, but charity drives should not be, otherwise they fail at the gate. This is a charity drive – Anthony

Barry Sheridan

Thanks for the Red Cross link Antony. It always appreciate the chance to make donation directly rather than through third parties.

Phaedrus

Made my donation as suggested.
Thanks for the Blog and sanity.
The Lunatics are in the hall ………. Glacier Girl has some explaining to do! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_Girl

And my pledge:
30% of my before-tax personal income from the sales of my ebooks (my profits from .pdf edition sales and my royalties from Amazon Kindle edition sales) from November 1, 2013 to December 31, 2013 will be donated to the Philippine Red Cross disaster relief for the victims of Typhoon Haiyan/Yolanda.

Eric H.

Nice form Anthony.

Phaedrus

Michael Larkin, both Faith and Hope weren’t quite so why should be Charity?

Bloke down the pub

ckb says:
November 10, 2013 at 11:59 pm
Anthony, my reading of ckb’s comment appears to be the opposite of your interpretation. Just because there are knobs like Laden about, one shouldn’t assume everyone is like him.

TimiBoy

Michael Larkin, I completely agree! Charity should be anonymous. Are you an Aussie too? I think that’s something we prefer here, but the Septics don’t go for it! (A septic, for those uninformed, is short for septic tank, which rhymes with Yank, you see?)
But, in this case there is little to be done other than for Anthony to reveal his generosity, otherwise how can the point be made?
[snip]

Donation made – thanks, Anthony.

Michael Larkin

“Michael Larkin, both Faith and Hope weren’t quite so why should be Charity?”
Because one shouldn’t take pride in being kind to fellow human beings. It diminishes the giver and the receiver alike.

Chris Gray

I’ve been wondering how I could contribute and can’t thank you enough for your side-bar link to the Philippine Red Cross. Have matched your donation Anthony.

John Harris

While I don’t want to detract from this tragedy, what concerns me the most is where the most damage happened.
For those that don’t know the locations that suffered the greatest damage and loss of life, they were located in the poorer area’s where shanty towns and poor quality slum like dwellings are the norm.
This is in stark contrast to those locations that are located in similar geographical area’s, but are made of modern and more sturdy materials, such as brick and concrete.
The storm surge, while making a mess in the more affluent area’s, as well as causing some concern as to the clean up and the related logistics, suffered much less, including a far lower loss of life.
By way of example, the Yasi Cyclone that hit Queensland was far more powerful, yet only one person died.
Arguably, through his own stupidity, quite accidentally.
This is the difference between an affluent nation and a poor one. Between good buildings and bad ones.
Also, between a well educated and self dependant population and one reliant on government direction.
The damage caused by Yasi affected a wider area and caused far more devastation.
Wind speed is relative, hiding behind loosely assembled salvaged junk, facing a category three or four storm, is not.
Expecting it to stop a huge storm driven tidal surge is fanciful at best.
While building a township in a known, low lying, flood prone, tidal surge affected, seasonal storm alley is never a wise idea, some people have no choice, as it’s their only option.
Furthermore, it is clear that modern technology and it’s related wealth is able to assist in not only reducing casualty’s, but also reducing the time taken to repair the damage.
In addition, wealth, more technology advanced nations can return the local population fairly quickly to some normalcy and thence to greater potential for local wealth creation, once more.
While there are many lessons to learn here, Man Made Global Warming and it’s related vile peddlers of indulgences are not one of them.
As for Mr. Laden, if he has something he wants to flog to death, might I suggest he joins Opus Dei.
They studiously practise self-flagellation.
This tends to cut out the middle man and teaches one humility.
As opposed to his being cheerily flogged by all and sundry, without the humility.
Mr. Laden, the Philippines needs to be able to build up it’s technology, infrastructure, tidal and storm defences.
This solution won’t stop storms, but it will certainly save lives.

Dr. John M. Ware

Michael L, in one way you are right (as in the Pharisee and the publican, which actually illustrates a wholly different issue); and yet, we are not to hide our light under a bushel, and a good example can accomplish much. Anthony and other donors were not bragging; rather, they were exhorting others to follow their lead and provide actual help to those less fortunate, as Christian charity dictates.

King of Cool

Sorry Anthony, I am happy to be proven wrong but I must record my honest opinion.
Introductions like “Super Typhoon Haiyan/Yolanda – another overhyped storm that didn’t match early reports” before all the facts are uncovered beyond dispute, in my opinion do not enhance the excellent time honoured reputation of WUWT.
Yes, alarmism has been rampant for decades and in the past global warming has been blamed by the more extremist alarmists for just about every natural event under the sun. But does that mean every natural disaster that occurs is exaggerated as a matter of course without professional journalists checking their facts?
Paul Homewood stated in his article on WUWT:
“ Nevertheless the BBC are still reporting today Typhoon Haiyan – one of the most powerful storms on record to make landfall…The storm made landfall shortly before dawn on Friday, bringing gusts that reached 379km/h (235 mph). Unfortunately we cannot always trust the BBC to give the facts these days.”.
But it was not just the BBC that reported this – hundreds of other international media outlets made the same report. Where did these numbers come from and are they true? I accept Wikipedia is not the most authoritative reference in Climatology but it states with multiple references:
“Around 1200 UTC on November 7, Haiyan attained its peak intensity with ten-minute sustained winds of 235 km/h (145 mph) and a barometric pressure of 895 mbar (hPa; 26.43 in Hg). This made it the second-most intense tropical cyclone in the Northwest Pacific Ocean on record, based on wind speeds alone, along with Bess in 1982 and Megi in 2010, only after Tip in 1979.
Six hours later, the JTWC estimated Haiyan to have attained one-minute sustained winds of 315 km/h (195 mph) ….unofficially making Haiyan the fourth most intense tropical cyclone ever observed. Several hours later, the eye of the cyclone made its first landfall in the Philippines at Guiuan, Eastern Samar, without any change in intensity; if verified, this would make Haiyan the strongest tropical cyclone to make a landfall on record, surpassing the old record of 305 km/h (190 mph) set by Hurricane Camille in 1969.usts up to 378 km/h (235 mph).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Haiyan_%282013%29
These speeds are incidentally what the BBC reported. If they are officially accepted as fact will Paul Homewood be making an apology to the BBC as well as a donation to the Typhoon Relief Fund?
I do not know how typhoon world records are made official, whether it is the lowest pressure, the highest recorded wind speed, the highest estimated wind speed, speed before landfall, speed after landfall, the highest number of deaths, damage or what.
But I do know that Super Typhoon Haiyan/Yolanda – WAS NOT another overhyped storm that didn’t match early reports”
And I believe the Civil Aviation official who inspected the whole area by air when he said that he had seen the aftermath of typhoons in the Philippines for 30-40 years but he had seen nothing like this.
Was Paul Homewood in this case premature assuming that alarmists as usual were hyping this disaster up and perhaps pre-empting what the alarmists were going to say? So far I have not seen one article or comment from alarmists blaming global warming for the typhoon – not to say it will stay that way. Maybe this was not Paul’s motive but that is the impression I gained.
It is pretty obvious from the TV coverage of the aftermath that preparedness, poverty and communication played a big part in the devastation and there is a big case for better adaption and especially support to poorer nations to counter extreme weather events rather than supplementing the UN’s demonization of CO2.
I will therefore be happy to join your call for a donation hopeful that this will occur in the future.

David L.

It’s typical behaviour of a lot “lefties” I personally know. They holler “higher taxes (on the so-called rich)” and when their taxes go up (because they are in the “rich” category) they begin hollering again.
My lefty friends are the ones crying for all sorts of gov’t handout programs and yet they don’t give a dime to charity. In fact, they are the ones most likely to split the dinner bill down to the penny where the rest of us split and round up to the easy bills .
They want the credit for being concerned of others but I don’t see a lot of evidence that they are truly concerned. Maybe that’s the way they shed their guilt; by publicly announcing their support of any program that helps the needy. Just don’t expect a donation.

Pete Olson

@Michael: I don’t feel particularly proud or superior for stating that I donated a few bucks (around $23) to an urgent cause (just like I’m sure you don’t feel proud or superior when you lecture others on the proper way to do kind things); I kind of thought it might help encourage others to do the same…that OK with you?

TimC,
Oxfam is a UN agency, and thus they are completely opaque. The UN adamantly refuses to permit any independent audit of its spending, and we do not know how much goes for administration. I prefer making a donation via the Phillipine Red Cross, on the sidebar link.
Donation of $230 USD made. Thanks, Anthony, for making this easy.

Txomin

Laden is out to cash on this. It’s not a “lefty” issue. It’s a character issue.

M Courtney

dbstealey says… nope. Oxfam is not a UN agency.
It is a NGO, a charity, that was originally founded to campaign for the easing of the blockade on continental Europe during WW2. The founders thought that famine was not an acceptable weapon of war.
They are a good way to give.
On the subject of which I do not undersatand how anyone could have missed the need to give from our relative riches to those suffering in this horrendous circumstance. It isn’t a left wing/right wing issue.
It is a humane issue.

Jeff Nowland

Thanks for the Red Cross link.
Payment Confirmation
Congratulations! This is to confirm that your payment has been completed.
Reference No T7HQCKH6
Merchant Philippine Red Cross
Amount PHP 10,000.00

rabbit

Some excellent strategic judo there. Laden pushed too hard and ended up flat on his back.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7

Anthony: I tried to match your donation but got into some kind of Pay Pal loop: it told me I had one active card but insisted I had to enter a new credit/debit card. Even entering my already on-file card info didn’t get past that. I’ll try again later.

Eric H.

TimiBoy says:
November 11, 2013 at 2:28 am
“Michael Larkin, I completely agree! Charity should be anonymous. Are you an Aussie too? I think that’s something we prefer here, but the Septics don’t go for it!”
You paint with too wide a brush POME..

Ian W

Matched your donation Anthony.
The problem is that the global warming proponents like Laden were feeling really bruised with the dead hurricane season this year and “do not want let this humanitarian crisis go to waste.”
“You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it’s an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before. – Rahm Emanuel
Note that from his comments Laden is already ‘using’ this crisis
This storm will be hyped up as “unprecedented” despite the fact \hat it was weaker than typhoon Tip in Oct 1979 reported as “Earth’s Strongest, Most Massive Storm Ever” and which still holds the record for the lowest surface atmospheric pressure at 870mb and was probably larger than Haiyan but fortunately was far less damaging.
None of this is important compared to the loss of life and destroyed livelihoods in an area that was only starting to recover from earthquake. But politicians put furthering their power above all else.

pokerguy

Matched your 5000, Anthony. Is there a way to establish how much WUWT readers donate in total?

Anyone remember the “10,000” dead in the WTC collapse?
I guess they are still trying to find the other 7,000, right Laden?