From Columbia University
Astronomers find clues to decades-long coronal heating mystery
Drs. Michael Hahn and Daniel Wolf Savin, research scientists at Columbia University’s Astrophysics Laboratory in New York, NY, found evidence that magnetic waves in a polar coronal hole contain enough energy to heat the corona and moreover that they also deposit most of their energy at sufficiently low heights for the heat to spread throughout the corona. The observations help to answer a 70-year-old solar physics conundrum about the unexplained extreme temperature of the Sun’s corona – known as the coronal heating problem.
Hahn and Savin analyzed data from the Extreme Ultraviolet Imaging Spectrometer onboard the Japanese satellite Hinode. They used observations of a polar coronal hole, a region of the Sun where the magnetic fields lines stretch from the solar surface far into interplanetary space. The findings were published on September 30th in the October 20th edition of The Astrophysical Journal.
To understand the coronal heating problem, imagine a flame coming out of an ice cube.
A similar effect occurs on the surface of the Sun. Nuclear fusion in the center of the Sun heats the solar core to 15 million degrees. Moving away from this furnace, by the time one arrives at the surface of the Sun the gas has cooled to a relatively refreshing 6000 degrees. But the temperature of the gas in the corona, above the solar surface, soars back up to over one million degrees. What causes this unexpected temperature increase has puzzled scientists since 1939.
Two dominant theories exist to explain this mystery. One attributes the heating to the loops of magnetic field which stretch across the solar surface and can snap and release energy. Another ascribes the heating to waves emanating from below the solar surface, which carry magnetic energy and deposit it in the corona. Observations show both of these processes continually occur on the Sun. But until now scientists have been unable to determine if either one of these mechanisms releases sufficient energy to heat the corona to such high temperatures.
Hahn and Savin’s recent observations show that magnetic waves are the answer. The advance opens up a realm of further questions; chief among them is what causes the waves to damp. Hahn and Savin are planning new observations to try to address this issue.
This research has been supported by the National Science Foundation Division of Atmospheric and Geospace Sciences through the Solar, Heliospheric and Interplanetary Environment program.
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Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Can that offset be correlated to the helio current sheet warp at the corona? And why not?
No, because the solar wind is supersonic: no magnetic changes can travel upstream towards the sun.
Could changes in the warp latitude be an influence on rotation changes in the outer corona? That would cause changes in the wind up of the IMF?
Yes, these things are loosely connected.
So.. the angle at which the heliosphere strikes the Interstellar magnetic field creates a dent in the nose and an offset in the tail? Or the angle at which the interstellar wind(s) strike the nose creating the dent and also affecting the draping of the Interstellar field, at the heliotail, which creates the offset?
lsvalgaard says:
October 19, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Could changes in the warp latitude be an influence on rotation changes in the outer corona? That would cause changes in the wind up of the IMF?
Yes, these things are loosely connected.
____
Is the warp a frozen in structure that fluctuates, and how?
If frozen in? Like for billions of years like frozen in? Is this ubiquitous in stellar regimes? This warp that makes bends…
And Earths magnetic equator is warped to the north with respect to its geographic equator?
lsvalgaard says:
October 19, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Can that offset be correlated to the helio current sheet warp at the corona? And why not?
No, because the solar wind is supersonic: no magnetic changes can travel upstream towards the sun.
___
I was referring to magnetic pressure..from the draping over of the Interstellar field on the heliotail, as it extends outward 100’s of AU. Dent in the nose, offset in the tail, GCR running up the helio magnetic equator.. something fishy about that picture..
correction GCR running up a warped heliomagnetic equator.
The neutral hydrogen was found changing latitudinally unlike the other neutrals.
Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 8:14 pm
the angle at which the heliosphere strikes the Interstellar magnetic field creates a dent in the nose and an offset in the tail? Or the angle at which the interstellar wind(s) strike the nose creating the dent and also affecting the draping of the Interstellar field, at the heliotail, which creates the offset?
Don’t know where you are going with this, but it doesn’t matter for the Sun.
Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Is the warp a frozen in structure that fluctuates, and how?
If frozen in? Like for billions of years like frozen in? Is this ubiquitous in stellar regimes? This warp that makes bends…
The warp is created in the corona and is frozen in as the solar wind travels outwards until it about a year later hits the heliopause from the inside. Then whatever structure there was is destroyed in the turbulent shock.
Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 8:30 pm
And Earths magnetic equator is warped to the north with respect to its geographic equator?
It warps both North and South, but is something completely different from the Sun’s.
Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 8:43 pm
I was referring to magnetic pressure..from the draping over of the Interstellar field on the heliotail, as it extends outward 100′s of AU. Dent in the nose, offset in the tail, GCR running up the helio magnetic equator.. something fishy about that picture..
whatever it is [and we don’t really know much about it] it has no importance at the or for the Sun.
lsvalgaard:
I objected to your misrepresenting me by claiming I said things in a post which you cited. However, I had not said anything like what you claimed ever or anywhere.
You said your misrepresenting me was a mistake and I accepted that.
Now, at October 19, 2013 at 3:52 pm you say
True, it could be misunderstood as being “support for meemoe” by somebody with reading comprehension difficulties who – as you have done – selected and only considered specific phrases out of context. And it could be deliberately misunderstood by someone with malign intent.
But meemoe_uk understood because in the immediately subsequent post to my post which you selectively quote, at October 19, 2013 at 1:59 pm he replied
So, meemoe understood I was ridiculing his assertions.
But you made a post that claimed I said what I did not, and when I objected you said it was a mistake. Now you have selectively quoted me to claim my rejection of meemoe’s could be acceptance of those assertions when meemoe replied at length claiming my rejection was because I had been indoctrinated by what he calls “fiction”.
I do not know why you are making these misrepresentations of me but strongly request that you desist.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 20, 2013 at 12:01 am
You said your misrepresenting me was a mistake and I accepted that.
Well, I’ll say it again. My point was that in exchanges like this one has to be very explicit and not leave any room for misunderstanding, so subtle hints, ridicule, or sarcasm are not effective. Better to be open, direct, and to the point.
lsvalgaard:
re your post at October 20, 2013 at 3:24 am.
OK. I have learned.
When you make mistakes you blame somebody else.
I am disappointed by learning this.
I think that is “open, direct, and to the point”.
Richard
lsvalgaard says:
October 19, 2013 at 9:03 pm
..Carla says:
October 19, 2013 at 8:30 pm
And Earths magnetic equator is warped to the north with respect to its geographic equator?
It warps both North and South, but is something completely different from the Sun’s.
———
Ok, Dr. S., the exercise is this.
Sun has an orbit and with that comes, pressure changes to its magnetosphere.
The planets also have an orbit that has changes in pressures on their magnetospheres.
So after having looked over;
Warps, Bending and Density Waves Excited by Rotating
Magnetized Stars: Results of Global 3D MHD Simulations
M. M. Romanova,1?, G. V. Ustyugova2, A. V. Koldoba2, R. V. E. Lovelace 1
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.1161.pdf
Which is part of, US-RUSSIA COLLABORATION in Plasma Astrophysics, which is involved with,
DISK ACCRETION TO MAGNETIZED STARS
3D SIMULATIONS OF DISK ACCRETION TO AN INCLINED DIPOLE. HOT SPOTS AND VARIABILITY
http://astro.cornell.edu/us-rus/spots.htm
I became interested in our solar warp and the ubiquitousness in other orbiting, rotating objects such as planets.
Modelling the Forces in Saturn’s Warped Magnetodisc
Achilleos, N.; Arridge, C. S.; Guio, P.
EGU General Assembly 2012
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2012EGUGA..14.8582A
Observations from the Cassini spacecraft have established that Saturn’s outer magnetospheric current sheet does not generally lie in the planet’s rotational equatorial plane. Previous analyses have revealed that the current sheet adopted a ‘bowl-like’ shape, swept northwards of the equator, during the Cassini prime mission (southern summer solstice). In order to quantify the relationship between solar wind dynamic pressure, planetary dipole tilt, and the shape of the near-noon current sheet, we examine a simple model of magnetopause currents within systems where the planetary dipole / rotation axis is oriented at ~65 degrees (solstice) and 90 degrees (equinox) to the upstream flow direction of the solar wind. We use this simple model to compute the ‘shielding field’ for the UCL Magnetodisc Model. We show model predictions of the north-south asymmetry in the current sheet for varying dipole orientations and magnetopause sizes. We comment on the potential application of using observed magnetic signatures of current sheet displacement (relative to the equator) as an indep endent probe of solar wind pressure.
You will notice the reference to Saturns magnetospheric current sheet. And after reading this abstract, the thoughts now turn back to Earth and say “that sounds similar to Earth’s magnetosphere.”
But back to the solar disk. Is that feature on our solar disk considered a dent, hotspot or bulge? Is the feature related to the formation of the current sheet warp?
richardscourtney says:
October 20, 2013 at 5:06 am
When you make mistakes you blame somebody else.
I am disappointed by learning this.
I think that is “open, direct, and to the point”.
I have owned up to my [honest, clerical] mistake several times now.
How many more times do you need?
Carla says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:04 am
But back to the solar disk. Is that feature on our solar disk considered a dent, hotspot or bulge? Is the feature related to the formation of the current sheet warp?
Solar ‘disk’ is ambiguous. Ordinarily it means the ‘face’ of the disk as we see it in the sky. It can also mean a ‘circumsolar’ disk in the plane of the planets as many other stars also have. I Assume you here mean the latter. In that case it has nothing to do with the warp in the current sheet. That warp originate on the solar surface it itself [and presumably just reflects some inner organization], see e.g. Slides 11, 15, 16 of http://www.leif.org/research/On-Becoming-a-Scientist.pdf [or if you want an animated version: http://www.leif.org/research/On-Becoming-a-Scientist.ppt ].
I’m not fishing for agreement, just trying to tell you how things work. You are bit overestimating the voltage, it is more like 10^7 Volt, but such a voltage is easy to generate. A simple Van de Graff generator will do nicely:
Thunderclouds can get over 10^8 voltage, i checked before writing. A van-de-graf isn’t rising water vapour. Why not link to a machine that demonstrates voltage generation by water vapour convection in a room where the Earth’s electric field has been nullified?
The total global current that flows between the surface and the ionosphere is small, only 1000 Ampere so we are not talking about huge energies,
You forgot to say over what time duration the 1000Amp flows. ( I notice this was lost on the other remaining commentators here, but you can’t slip it past me! ) 1000Amp at 10^7V per nanosecond is a lot of power.
Assuming you say something like 1 day to 1 year, I don’t think you’re right. Dark current is hard to detect and if you’re not looking for it, you’ll miss it. Dark current has been found recently in unexpected places. Significant dark current has been found in cyclones. Until a thorough investigation has been made its possible there’s much more dark current flowing into the Earth than previously thought.
“pseudo-scientific quacks”
Care to name names? Scott and Peratt?
You seem to do pretty well on your own. Do you know more?
I see what your doing here.
If you going to label the EU professionals as “pseudo-scientific quacks” don’t be coy about it as this looks like you are unsure of your 20th century cosmology when compare with EU theory. Make an explicit statement : ” I, L Svalgaard think Scott, Perrat are… ”
You are da man for this E U dispute. Lots of good responses that help clarify some things for the rest of us
Don’t forget that I was right that he typically avoids the keystone evidence underlying the EU theory – electric discharge induced plasmoid nuclear fusion, and instead pokes at my detailed and technical understanding of electromagnetic phenomena. EU theory is young and all the details haven’t been sorted out yet, but the core evidence is unbreakable. It is the seed of scientific revolution that is in the slow process of usurping 20th century cosmology right now.
Perhaps your galactic electric current…
Not my galactic currents, Alfven’s.
lsvalgaard:
re your post addressed to me at October 20, 2013 at 8:43 am.
QED and very, very disappointing.
Richard
meemoe_uk says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:48 am
Thunderclouds can get over 10^8 voltage, i checked before writing. A van-de-graf isn’t rising water vapour. Why not link to a machine that demonstrates voltage generation by water vapour convection in a room where the Earth’s electric field has been nullified?
You are confusing several issues: the ‘fair-weather global electric circuit’ [ever heard of that one?] and the voltage inside a single thundercloud. And you keep harping on water vapor, but that is not how a thundercloud works, to wit: In a thundercloud, small ice crystals collide with rime-growing graupels [snow pellets]; the crystals gain positive charge by friction [same way as a VdG generator], the graupels negative charge. Convection in the thundercloud carries the ice crystals to the cloud top, the heavier graupels staying in the mid-cloud so you get charge separation and hence voltage. The process is just the same as in a VdG generator.
You forgot to say over what time duration the 1000Amp flows.
The global electric circuit exists all the time, so the 1000Amp flows all the time [and have done so for billions of years]
Until a thorough investigation has been made
This has been studied for more than a hundred years.
If you going to label the EU professionals
There are no persons that can be called EU professionals, A professional is someone who has completed formal education and training in a profession. EU is not a profession. And I have no problem to declare that ‘everybody who adheres to the cult of EU is a pseudo-science quack’
electric discharge induced plasmoid nuclear fusion
This happens on a very small scale in a fusion reactor and only with very light elements such as Boron, the plasmoid created in a cage of superstrong magnetic field, not on any large scale. So can safely be ignored in cosmological context.
“Perhaps your galactic electric current…”
Not my galactic currents, Alfven’s.
Alfven went to great pains to show that all electric current in the cosmos are created by changing magnetic fields according to Faraday’s law of induction. You have several times used the phrase ‘homopolar induction’ without, apparently’ knowing what it is. Here is a nice explanation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBhD8wQtsQ here is a dictionary explanation: “If the magnetized body is a conductor, homopolar induction may be explained in the framework of classical electrodynamics. Under the action of the Lorentz force, free electrons drift within the body in a direction perpendicular to the directions of v and B until an electric field that impedes the drift is generated in the body”
So electric fields and currents are generated whenever a conductor moves in a magnetic field.
richardscourtney says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:51 am
QED and very, very disappointing.
So be it. did I not apologize enough? As I asked: how many more times do I have to say it?
meemoe_uk says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:48 am
Thunderclouds can get over 10^8 voltage, i checked before writing. A van-de-graf isn’t rising water vapour. Why not link to a machine that demonstrates voltage generation by water vapour convection in a room where the Earth’s electric field has been nullified?
You are confusing several issues: the ‘fair-weather global electric circuit’ [ever heard of that one?] and the voltage inside a single thundercloud. And you keep harping on water vapor, but that is not how a thundercloud works, to wit: In a thundercloud, small ice crystals collide with rime-growing graupels [snow pellets]; the crystals gain positive charge by friction [same way as a VdG generator], the graupels negative charge. Convection in the thundercloud carries the ice crystals to the cloud top, the heavier graupels staying in the mid-cloud so you get charge separation and hence voltage. The process is just the same as in a VdG generator.
You forgot to say over what time duration the 1000Amp flows.
The global electric circuit exists all the time, so the 1000Amp flows all the time [and have done so for billions of years]
Until a thorough investigation has been made
This has been studied for more than a hundred years.
If you going to label the EU professionals
There are no persons that can be called EU professionals, A professional is someone who has completed formal education and training in a profession. EU is not a profession. And I have no problem to declare that ‘everybody who adheres to the cult of EU is a pseudo-science quack’
electric discharge induced plasmoid nuclear fusion
This happens on a very small scale in a fusion reactor and only with very light elements such as Boron, the plasmoid created in a cage of superstrong magnetic field, not on any large scale. So can safely be ignored in cosmological context.
“Perhaps your galactic electric current…”
Not my galactic currents, Alfven’s.
Alfven went to great pains to show that all electric current in the cosmos are created by changing magnetic fields according to Faraday’s law of induction. You have several times used the phrase ‘homopolar induction’ without, apparently’ knowing what it is. Here is a nice explanation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBhD8wQtsQ here is a dictionary explanation: “If the magnetized body is a conductor, homopolar induction may be explained in the framework of classical electrodynamics. Under the action of the Lorentz force, free electrons drift within the body in a direction perpendicular to the directions of v and B until an electric field that impedes the drift is generated in the body”
So electric fields and currents are generated whenever a conductor moves in a magnetic field.
richardscourtney says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:51 am
QED and very, very disappointing.
So be it.
meemoe_uk says:
October 20, 2013 at 8:48 am
..“pseudo-scientific quacks”
Care to name names? Scott and Peratt?
You seem to do pretty well on your own. Do you know more?
I see what your doing here….
—————————————-
Whoaah huh.. looked like baiting and entrapment from this vantage point, seeing as how you baited with the first question. “Care to name names?” bad boy Play nice
You want interactive currents in the solar/galactic system try looking at current sheets, that have a lot of rotating potential when mixed with SIRs or CIRs or reconnection or waves of energy.
lsvalgaard:
I am replying to the questions you put to me in your post at October 20, 2013 at 9:43 am.
This will be my last comment on this silly and off topic matter whatever you reply.
You ask me
Actually, you did not apologise at all. You admitted that you had claimed I said something I did not. And you repeated that admission (claiming you had done it several times) in response to my complaint at your later having quoted me out of context to pretend I had agreed with meemoe_uk. In reality I had quoted his saying
and I had replied to that saying
And you have not admitted that you misrepresented me then at all.
I admit that I had expected better of you.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 20, 2013 at 10:21 am
This will be my last comment on this silly and off topic matter whatever you reply.
Actually, you did not apologise at all.
I said I was sorry.
I admit that I had expected better of you.
Nobody is perfect, honest mistakes happen and are not under my control [by definition].
Expectations do seem to be among those things that are under one’s control, but let that slide.
This exchange should have ended with my very first admission of my mistake and apology.
Jeepers creepers dude ..
“pettiness which plays so rough, walk upside down inside handcuffs,”
Bob Dylan
“It’s Alright Ma, I’m Only Bleeding”
Take care Dr. S., when walking on that “high wire.”
Which reminds of another song by Leon Russell, Tight Rope, “up on the high wire..”
Whoaah huh.. looked like baiting and entrapment from this vantage point
Not really. He waves his arms at the EU crowd calling them quacks but won’t point a finger at any one of them in particular in case he has to applaud him at the next nobel prize ceremony and say ” oh i didn’t mean you! “. Just wanted to be clear on that. I prompted him to name names and he didn’t because secretly he knows there’s potential for a scientific revolution.
You are confusing several issues: the ‘fair-weather global electric circuit’
You can keep telling me a bit more about the conventional model of lightning generation every post and I will read and note but it’s not my preferred model. I think lightning occurs around rainclouds because the water makes the air more conductive to the intergalactic current.
This has been studied for more than a hundred years.
Yet new stuff is still being discovered. The science ain’t settled.
When I mention plasmoid induced fusion to Leif he doesn’t explore the potentials and far reaching implications of plasmoid genesis of elements but instead just ignores them and pokes that the current lab evidence has not yet produced all the elements – meemoe
This happens on a very small scale in a fusion reactor and only with very light elements such as Boron, the plasmoid created in a cage of superstrong magnetic field, not on any large scale. So can safely be ignored in cosmological context. -leif
I saw that one coming. It’s a very pessimistic standpoint one which is diametrically opposed to science progress. It’s the Leifs in the science funding panels around the world that have suppressed and been dismissive of plasmoid research for 40 years. 20 years ago there was no fusion at all measured on plasmoids. 10 years ago it was measured for light elements. Now a new type of DPF is in the making for more powerful plasmoids. What do you think they will do next? fuse heavier elements perhaps?
If Leif had his way he would disband all plasmoid research groups and stop their funding since plasmoid elemental synthesis is a threat to the sacred 20th century theories of creation – the bgbang and stellar core element synthesis .
ot on any large scale. So can safely be ignored in cosmological context
Except that as any plasma scientist will remind u ( u seem to have conveniently forgotten here for the umpteenth time), plasma phenomena are very scalable, any microscopic features have macro equivalents. Indeed many plasma structures and features photoed in the lab are strikingly similar to photos of cosmology.
created in a cage of superstrong magnetic field,
The giga-Wb magnetic field of the plasmoid is not produced directly by the lab machinery. The main function of the DPF is just to unleash an electric current which is then left to collapse in on itself via ampere’s law, one product of which is a ultra high power magnetic field.
I remember you struggled on this point b4. You thought the strong magnetic field was a starting point set by the lab, and I think I know you well enough to know why you made this mistake now. You have a misguided belief that magnetic fields are the causal agent in any electromagnetic physics. In your explanations you often conclude with – and this is due to the magnetic fields. You know every time you do that its sounds weak to everyone trained in electromagnetism. There is no magnetron particle. The fundamental particles of electromagnetism are cheifly the electron and proton, which both have magnetic components but there behavior is more controlled by their electric charge. Your conclusions should never come to rest on magnetic fields but on the matter which creates those fields – electric particles.
So, whats a lab plasmoid to Leif?
It’s an object where the strong magnetic field is created by electricity obeying a law of electricity, is scalable physics, that looks and behaves like objects in space, and that can synthesis new elements.
Its the biggest threat to his 20th century cosmology that could possibly exist.
Don’t expect Leif to start enthusing about them any time soon.
Except for the part where he says, “Sorry for that, I copied pasted from meemoe and your name got copied by accident.”
meemoe_uk says:
October 20, 2013 at 1:05 pm
I prompted him to name names
I strongly emphasized that EVERYBODY believing in this stuff is a pseudo-science quack. How more inclusive can one get?
it’s not my preferred model.
That does not mean that it doesn’t happen that way. Your next statement shows the depth of your ignorance: “I think lightning occurs around rainclouds because the water makes the air more conductive to the intergalactic current
If Leif had his way he would disband all plasmoid research groups and stop their funding since plasmoid elemental synthesis is a threat to the sacred 20th century theories of creation – the bgbang and stellar core element synthesis .
Of course not. Plasma fusion research is very important and might one day supply almost limitless energy. But is in no way a threat to modern physics. On the contrary, uses modern physics as a indispensable tool.
You have a misguided belief that magnetic fields are the causal agent in any electromagnetic physics.
Alfven and Faraday taught us that. You yourself admit as much when you invoke homopolar induction, but perhaps you didn’t know what you very talking about.
Its the biggest threat to his 20th century cosmology that could possibly exist
I [and all other physicists] don’t see it as a threat. On the contrary, it very nicely confirms the standard theories we have.
Christoph Dollis says:
October 20, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Actually, you did not apologise at all. “
Except for the part where he says, “Sorry for that, I copied pasted from meemoe and your name got copied by accident.”
I say: let sleeping dogs lie.
That’s because Leif didn’t misrepresent you any more than he misrepresented me when I said:
and Leif said:
All Leif’s doing is making sure that both your and my sarcasm is not missed because he knows that many people with these alternative solar and cosmological models are already a little on the credulous side. He’s not sure they’ll pick up it. Plus I don’t think Leif Svalgaard’s a native English speaker so just like my little “/s” may go unnoticed by some, he may not have known the significance of how you pronounced “Oooooh Kaaaaaay”. You go on to say:
Yeah, so what? There’s other people reading this site beyond meemoe_uk.
Relax. It’ll all be good.
By the way from our previous discussion where I said
to which you replied:
… I think the answer is now clear.
It was option 2. I did include it as a possibility.
I’ll accept that you weren’t intentionally lying, you were just badly misreading the situation.
meemoe_uk says:
October 20, 2013 at 1:05 pm
” I think lightning occurs around rainclouds because the water makes the air more conductive to the intergalactic current.”
Then why do I not see lightning in every rain storm?