Drilling For Hydrogen

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

As a result of my post on energy storage entitled Getting Energy From The Energy Store, a few people brought up the idea of replacing our current energy sources such as gas and oil with hydrogen (often written as H2, because two hydrogen atoms make up one hydrogen molecule).

You see this on the web, that we could power our civilization on hydrogen, convert all the trucks and buses to run on hydrogen, they call it shifting to a “hydrogen economy”… and why not? You can burn hydrogen just like natural gas, you can run an internal combustion engine on hydrogen, what’s not to like? Here’s a typical intro to an analysis:

A Comparison of Hydrogen and Propane Fuels.

Hydrogen and propane have long histories of being used as fuel. Both fuels can be used safely if their physical, chemical, and thermal properties are understood and if appropriate codes, standards, and guidelines are followed. Although the properties of hydrogen have been compared to those of propane and methane, these comparisons were made to facilitate appreciation of the physical and chemical differences and similarities among these fuels. It is not possible to rank these fuels according to safety because plausible accident scenarios can be formulated in which any one of the fuels can be considered the safest or the most hazardous.

So what’s wrong with this comparison, between hydrogen and other competitive fuel sources like propane and methane?

What’s wrong is that people misunderstand hydrogen. Unlike say propane or methane, hydrogen is not an energy source. There are no hydrogen mines. You can’t go out and drill somewhere into a deposit of pure hydrogen and bring it back home to burn.

And why can’t we mine or drill for hydrogen and bring it home and burn it to power our cars?

The reason we can’t mine and burn hydrogen is simple … it’s all been burnt already. The nerve of nature! I mean, people are always warning that we’ll burn up all the fossil fuels, and now we find out that nature has already gone rogue on us and burned up all the hydrogen …

water molecule

Figure 1. Burnt hydrogen, showing the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

Most of the burnt hydrogen we call “the ocean”. Another bunch of burned hydrogen we call ice and rain and rivers and lakes. But there’s no hydrogen that is available for drilling or mining—it’s all bound up in other compounds. And as a result, hydrogen is not a source of energy—it is merely a way to transport energy from Point A to Point B.

[UPDATE April 17, 2023: It’s been pointed out to me that there is one small hydrogen well in Africa, and that there is hydrogen produced naturally by reactions with water in the depth of the earth. However, as far as we know currently, it only collects in commercial quantities under very unusual conditions. Most is constantly escaping in tiny seeps. In addition, the global annual geological H2 production, not usable production but total production, is estimated at 23 Tg/year, which contains energy equal to less than 1% of the world’s annual energy usage. A possible future energy source for the globe? Seems doubtful, but it’s early days, time will tell.]

And this in turn means that the main competition to hydrogen, what we should be comparing it to, is not natural gas, nor propane as the quote above says, nor any other gas.

Instead, the main competition to hydrogen, the true comparison, is to electricity, which is our current means of transporting energy. Saying that we could “power our civilization on hydrogen” is as meaningless as saying we could “power our civilization on electricity” … neither one is a source of power, they’re just different ways to transport energy around the planet.

This is not to say that hydrogen is not useful, merely to clarify what it is useful for—transporting energy from one place to another. It is not a source of energy, it is a way to move energy. This distinction is very important because it lets us make the proper comparison, which is not comparing hydrogen to propane as they did above, but comparing hydrogen to its real competition—electricity.

Now, compared to electricity as a means of transporting energy, hydrogen suffers from a number of disadvantages.

The first disadvantage results from what I modestly call “Willis’s Rule Of Small Stuff”, which states:

It is far easier to move electrons than to move molecules.

This rule has ramifications in a number of fields, particularly the transportation of energy. For example, consider the difference between moving a large amount of energy on a constant basis over say a hundred miles (160 km) by the two competing transportation methods, electricity and hydrogen.

For electricity, you just have to move electrons. So you string a pair of copper wires up on poles from Point A to Point B, and … well … that’s about it. You hook one end to a generator of electricity, and a charge appears at the other end of the wires. There’s not much leakage, not many problems of any kind. The system is robust and relatively safe, and able to withstand storms and temperature extremes.

Now, consider moving the same amount of energy as hydrogen. For that, you have to move molecules. First off, you need a pipeline. Now, we’re all familiar with pipelines for moving energy. The trans-Alaska pipeline is a fine example. Pump oil in at one end, add some pumping stations along the route to keep it moving, and oil pours out the other end.

Hydrogen, though, is a very difficult beast to pump through a pipeline. To start with, hydrogen has very, very low energy density. So you have to pump a huge amount of it, about 4,000 times the volume of gasoline or oil for the same energy.

Next, hydrogen is incredibly sneaky. Do you know how a rubber balloon filled with helium gradually loses its helium over time? The helium is small enough to go through holes in the rubber balloon, tiny holes that are too small for air to pass through. Well, hydrogen is even worse. It can escape right around a piston in a pump, and run happily out through the pipe threads in any pipeline connectors. It requires special gas-tight connections from end to end of the delivery chain. You can’t just stick the hydrogen pump nozzle into your gas tank like you can with gasoline or diesel. So moving the molecules of hydrogen turns out to be a much, much harder problem than moving the electrons with electricity.

The second disadvantage of hydrogen as a means of transporting energy is the low energy density mentioned above. In general, the energy content of fuels varies with their density. So for example, diesel has more energy per liter than gasoline, which is lighter. And alcohol is even less dense, so it contains less energy per liter than either gas or diesel.

Now, consider hydrogen gas. Figure 2 shows a chart comparing various materials regarding energy density in two different measures—megajoules per liter (MJ/L), and megajoules per kilogram (MJ/kg).

energy densities

Figure 2. Energy density of selected materials. Vertical scale is in megajoules per litre, and the horizontal scale is in megajoules per kilogram. Hydrogen is at the lower right. Click to embiggen. SOURCE

This leads to an oddity. Hydrogen gas has a huge amount of energy per kilogram … but almost no energy per liter. Gasoline holds about 35 megajoules per liter (MJ/L). But even compressed at 700 bar (about 10,000 psi) hydrogen has only about 5 megajoules per liter. That means that you have to move a lot of hydrogen, or pack a lot of it into a car or truck fuel tank, to have enough energy for practical purposes.

Now folks are always claiming that this problem will be solved by adsorbing the hydrogen onto the surface of an as-yet-unknown sponge-like substance from which it can be recovered as hydrogen gas by heating the substrate. But that can’t possibly be as energy-dense as liquid hydrogen, and liquid hydrogen has only a measly ten megajoules per liter. So adsorbing it will not solve the problem.

Nor will liquefying it, seeing as how you have to keep liquid hydrogen at about 240 degrees C below zero (-405°F) … not practical.

And that means that if someone wants to store much energy, say at a hydrogen fueling station, well, they’ll need a whole lot of high-pressure tanks with special fittings, and they’ll need to be about six times as large as the corresponding gasoline tanks to contain the same amount of energy. Or if they are storing the hydrogen adsorbed onto the surface of some as-yet-undiscovered material, they won’t need to be high pressure, but they’ll need to be even bigger.

The third disadvantage of hydrogen as a transportation medium is safety. Yes, electricity is dangerous, of course. But electricity isn’t flammable, and hydrogen is extremely flammable. Hydrogen has an unusual quality. Most fuels only burn when there is a certain ratio of fuel to oxygen. But hydrogen will burn whether it’s a little hydrogen mixed with a lot of air, or a lot of hydrogen mixed with a little air. Not only that, but the hydrogen flame is colorless, smokeless, and invisible in sunlight … a very bad safety combination.

The fourth disadvantage of hydrogen is something called “hydrogen embrittlement”. Here’s a crazy fact. Hydrogen molecules are so small that they can leak out through solid steel. It can either react with steel, or it can leak right through the steel. But that minuscule slow leakage is not the real problem. The real issue is that hydrogen penetrating into and through the metal lattice weakens the steel, fatigues the metal, and decreases fracture resistance. In the long run, it can embrittle solid steel to the point where it cracks all the way through after only a slight impact.

The final disadvantage of hydrogen as a transportation medium is that after using hydrogen to transport energy from A to B, it is hard to convert the hydrogen back into other useful forms of energy. For example, electricity can be used to drive a crankshaft, heat a cup of tea, shoot a railgun projectile at supersonic speeds, energize a magnet, wash my clothes, power a laser, propel a train via linear induction, light up a football stadium, split water into hydrogen and oxygen, charge my computer’s battery, or to drive a chemical reaction against an energy gradient.

Out of all of those uses, hydrogen can drive a crankshaft with very low efficiency compared to electricity, and it can heat a cup of tea … yes, you can use hydrogen in a fuel cell to convert it back to electricity, but that kinda defeats the purpose.

I mean, isn’t it rather goofy to use electricity to create hydrogen, transport the hydrogen, and then convert it back to electricity??? What’s wrong with this picture? Why not just use the electricity directly?

All of this taken together, of course, is the reason that our civilization did not adopt the use of hydrogen as an energy transportation medium, and we settled on electricity instead … because, well, it’s kind of a no-brainer. For just about any purpose you can name, including transporting energy around for powering cars and trucks, hydrogen is well down on my list of good candidates.

Now, if I can just find out who burned up all the hydrogen and didn’t save it for the grandkids like Death Train Jim Hansen advised us to do …

w.

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Billy Liar
July 1, 2013 4:09 am

As I read Willis’ article I thought; given the guaranteed inefficiency of a hydrogen based economy it would undoubtedly attract environmentalists. Sure enough one turned up at the first comment.

JPS
July 1, 2013 4:30 am

Hydrogen! The fuel of the future!
And it always will be…

Sigmundb
July 1, 2013 4:31 am

Mr. Eschenbach conveniently forgets to mention Hydrogen can be easily and safely stored in (and extracted from) the lattice of suited materials and with and energy density in MJ/l comparable to gasoline (assuming 100% efficiency in the fuel cell and electrical motor). The coal and oil mafia don’t want you to know but just 50l of Palladium can give a Prius sized car the range of gasoline with zero CO2 emissions!

Bob
July 1, 2013 4:34 am

The article also mentioned getting hydrogen from natural gas along with sequestration of the resultant CO2. So, the solutions to all our problems is they hydrogen economy which is fueled by a much higher cost fuel, requires a complete infrastructure fix and has a few more safety concerns. And we all need to live in superinsulated homes that only a few can afford to build. And, for those who are in to saving the earth, just how much environmental damage would be done by creating superinsulated housing for a few billion folks?
Well, off to the hydrogen store for my energy recharge.

Fox from Melbourne
July 1, 2013 4:40 am

Wow have the people that want Hydrogen to replace Fossil Fuels because their use emits Carbon Dioxide greenhouse gases checked what you get which you burn Hydrogen say in your cars engine or use in a Hydrogen Fuel Cell ? H20 vapor an Greenhouse gas that is just only some 50 times more powerful than Carbon Dioxide Gas. Natures super fuel that just happens to make up 45% of the very food we eat and feeds the world. The very same gas they want to reduce or eliminate from our Atmosphere. 50 times stronger ya that should be the very thing we need to save us from all that Carbon emissions from burning all those Fossil fuels. That should save us from all that Globe warming that’s going to be the end of us all. NOT. Do these people actually think before they start to preach their climate change sermons. Lets just change every thing to ran off Hydrogen don’t worry it Carbon Free so it can’t hurt the Climate. Ya just one question for the true believers out there. If you believe that lots of Carbon Dioxide gas been emitted in the Atmosphere can change and harm the Climate. What would the very same amount of a Greenhouse Gas that’s just 50 times stronger than Carbon Dioxide do to the Atmosphere and the Climate Ha? Love to hear Greenpeace answer to that one !

CodeTech
July 1, 2013 4:41 am

Dudley Horscroft, the only way that wind or solar will EVER be useful in any way is if they can store energy for calm days, cloudy days, or night. We’ve already discussed the issues with industrial sized batteries, during which the already-proposed ideas of giant flywheels and compressed air were discussed. Oddly enough, these technologies still make far more sense than separating H from H2O and trying to store it and recover energy from it.
Thing is, wind and solar tend to be in more remote locations but we use most energy in cities. Instead of attempting to store this energy at the usage location, it would probably make more sense to store it at the generating location. That way if a flywheel breaks free or a giant compressed air cavern splits open you won’t have nearly the carnage.
Still, not matter how many times I look at what are euphemistically called “renewables”, I can see no way of making their output into a useful, reliable supply of what we all need to heat our homes and comment on internet blogs. The only really reliable and safe energy is still Nuclear.
(Interesting factoid: Grand Central Station, with its mostly granite construction, has a higher radioactivity level than is legally allowable in a nuclear power plant)

Editor
July 1, 2013 4:41 am

jdallen – The article you posted contains the following sentence: “Unlike sun, wind, water, petroleum, and coal, hydrogen is not an energy source, but rather an energy carrier.“. It goes on to compare it with electricity – another carrier.
Precisely one of w’s points.
Your article goes on to say “Hydrogen is the most concentrated energy carrier in the universe: 2.2 pounds of it can carry the same energy as 6.2 pounds of gasoline. That’s a key reason why liquid hydrogen makes excellent rocket fuel. […] When it does burn, hydrogen’s clear flame produces only heat and water—no choking smoke or soot, which are carbon products. Another safety advantage is that its clear flame cannot sear skin at a distance.“.
w also pointed out the high power of H by weight (nowhere near U, BTW). But the reason H is good as rocket fuel but not an everyday fuel is that “liquid” word – as w pointed out, the temperature needed rules it out on economic grounds. The last part of that last quote from your article is pure spin. Modern coal-fired power stations don’t emit choking smoke or soot, and that clear H flame is extremely dangerous when it isn’t at a distance, as w points out.
The rest of the article, while trying hard to sell H as a fuel, basically showed how complicated and inefficient it is. And as for the example it gave of a fuel cell being used for electricity backup by the police station in Central Park – well, that fuel cell uses natural gas, not H: “ a fuel cell that could use the precinct’s existing natural gas line” (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/FutureTech/Story?id=97554&page=2#.UdFnum26NNs).
I would be happy to see H become economically and practically competitive with other fuels, but it won’t happen for all the reasons given by w – some of which are basic scientific laws. That wasn’t a cheap shot by w, it was a lucid explanation, based on sound physics, of H’s truly insurmountable problems.

Patrick
July 1, 2013 4:42 am

From Wikipedia;
Palladium is a chemical element with the chemical symbol Pd and an atomic number of 46. It is a rare and lustrous silvery-white metal discovered in 1803 by William Hyde Wollaston.
Over half of the supply of palladium and its congener platinum goes into catalytic converters, which convert up to 90% of harmful gases from auto exhaust (hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen dioxide) into less-harmful substances (nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water vapor).
Ore deposits of palladium and other PGMs are rare, and the most extensive deposits have been found in the norite belt of the Bushveld Igneous Complex covering the Transvaal Basin in South Africa, the Stillwater Complex in Montana, United States, the Thunder Bay District of Ontario, Canada, and the Norilsk Complex in Russia. Recycling is also a source of palladium, mostly from scrapped catalytic converters. The numerous applications and limited supply sources of palladium result in the metal attracting considerable investment interest.

Chris Schoneveld
July 1, 2013 4:44 am

/Users/imac/Desktop/electricity price comparison.tiff
Electricity in France is the cheapest in Europe thanks to the fact that 85% of the electricity generation is nuclear.

Chris Schoneveld
July 1, 2013 4:44 am

I tried to add a figure but that doesn’t work.
[Post it on Photobucket, and then post a link. The link has to have the “html” prefix, if it does then WordPress will convert it to an active link. -w.]

Luther Wu
July 1, 2013 4:47 am

JPS says:
July 1, 2013 at 4:30 am
Hydrogen! The fuel of the future!
And it always will be…
_____________________
You are soooo on it.

Robin Hewitt
July 1, 2013 4:50 am

If the only sensible way to store energy is to pump water up hill, maybe the windmills should be pumping water rather than generating electricity. Skip two inefficiencient energy conversions. We could put them near tarns. Luckily there are no tarns in my back yard.

Bill Illis
July 1, 2013 4:50 am

Hydrogen is explosive, especially when contained in a high pressure (usually) metal container.
So far, there have not been that many hydrogen explosions, partly because it is so little used and partly because the gas escapes so quickly. But we are talking about the definition of a bomb and shrapnel here.

cirby
July 1, 2013 4:59 am

Sigmundb:
Yeah, fifty liters of palladium could store a heckuva lot of hydrogen, with a few tiny little problems.
Palladium is really rare. And expensive. And heavy.
One car, with a fifty liter storage tank (as you suggest), would need a significant fraction of the world’s palladium production (you could only build 330 such cars with the entire world’s production of palladium in one year) – and the tank alone would cost over $13 million dollars, on top of weighing 600 kilograms.

July 1, 2013 5:05 am

Willis, you have put it in words for the layperson which includes nearly all politicians particularly whose who are “green” believers. Unfortunately the the latter close their brains and do not want to see.
Not sure if your calculations are on gross energy. Do not forget in most processes the latent heat of water can not be recovered so the net energy is 15% less than the gross When converting from coal to natural gas in some processes (eg a boiler which has not had extra capital spent on it) the exhaust temperature is higher due to lower flame emissivity giving lower efficiency, and the exhaust volume is higher due to more gas and higher temperature and this results in lower production. Burning hydrogen will be worse than natural gas. Can not think of any industrial process that has used hydrogen as a fuel. (check my calculation of total greenhouse gases including H2O vapor for burning of natural gas and coal)

Gene Selkov
Reply to  cementafriend
July 1, 2013 6:55 am

cementafriend says: “Can not think of any industrial process that has used hydrogen as a fuel.”
Welding.

Admin
July 1, 2013 5:10 am

Sigmundb
Mr. Eschenbach conveniently forgets to mention Hydrogen can be easily and safely stored in (and extracted from) the lattice of suited materials and with and energy density in MJ/l comparable to gasoline (assuming 100% efficiency in the fuel cell and electrical motor).
Actually Willis does address this – he posits the theoretical maximum efficiency of Pd lattices as the energy density of liquid hydrogen, which is still 1/5 of the energy density of gasoline.

banjo
July 1, 2013 5:15 am

I may be misquoting someone.
Energy conversion..
You can`t win.
You can`t break even.
You can`t get out of the game.

Kajajuk
July 1, 2013 5:18 am

Hydrogen would be a viable option as a “non point” energy source i.e. convert excess electrical production from all sources into hydrogen instead of sending the excess into the ground. But that would require a government/industry tuned towards the public good (or long term residual profits) and less so to corporate profits…good luck with THAT.
The technology developed as a consequence of the American war machine is astounding. Imagine such ventures to develop hydrogen technologies….fuel cells (convert the chemical potential between hydrogen and oxygen into electrical…wow)… hydrogen capture and liquifying technology to go with household/community centres (a UK tinker developed energy capture from evaporating liquid gases)…i could go on, but what’s the point?
I can just hear the “pitch forks” being sharpened as well as the talking points from the billionaires’ covert “social” clubs….”socialism”, “that’s commie talk”, “Americans f0r Pr0sper1ty” hahaha
With a political system bought and gift wrapped, the “welfare state” from citizen to corporations, unchecked banksters, unscrupulous foodsters, …
Watch Brazil closely, my American friends, ’cause you are a finite number of quantum leaps to the bottom from truly understanding…

July 1, 2013 5:18 am

Reblogged this on gottadobetterthanthis and commented:
One of my favorite topics. Thanks for the clarity, Willis. Yes, hydrogen may fuel starships some day, but it will never find significant use in our power usage on the planet. The hydrogen economy concept is ridiculous. Hydrogen fuel cells are not even talked about any more. Hydrogen fuel cells will never prove practical compared to alternatives, but methanol fuel cells sure looked promising a few years ago. Anybody know what happened? Why doesn’t my laptop run on 60-gram cartridges?

Billy Liar
July 1, 2013 5:24 am

cirby says:
July 1, 2013 at 4:59 am
Yeah, I made it $14,315,786.10 at the current spot price for palladium.
I imagine there might be a few Tesla owners interested. You’d have to add a hundred thousand dollars to that figure for the rest of the car and 50% on top for profit. $20M ought to do it.

Pete Brown
July 1, 2013 5:33 am

jdallen says:
July 1, 2013 at 1:35 am
“Cheap, specious shot…
_________
I wonder if you have actually read – or properly understood – your own referenced article there, from which I have taken 6 quotes, numbered below for ease of reference:
1. “[Hydrogen is] a highly sociable gas, quick to combine with other substances, and hence in nature is never found by itself….”
I.e. You can’t drill it out of the ground. No disagreement with Eschenbach there, so far as I can see.
2. “…hydrogen is also the lightest element, making it a fugitive substance that disappears by floating away if not by forming compounds.”
I.e. It is difficult to transport (so presumably not a great energy carrier). No disagreement there either.
3. “Unlike sun, wind, water, petroleum, and coal, hydrogen is not an energy source, but rather an energy carrier.”
I.e. As it says… It is not an energy source, but an energy carrier. No disagreement there either.
4. “Electricity, which can transmit energy over hundreds of miles, is a pure carrier.”
No disagreement there.
5. “Reforming involves mixing natural gas with steam (which produces at least half of the hydrogen in the reaction). The process also releases some carbon dioxide, which Lovins recommends injecting back into the ground where it won’t aggravate the greenhouse effect but can re-pressurize oil or gas wells.”
I.e. You can reform hydrogen from fossil fuels. But this requires energy to do, and releases CO2 which has to be sequestered. Eschenbach hasn’t directly addressed this point, I’ll admit. But let’s imagine he might have said something like; so why not just burn the fossil fuel and sequester the CO2! Then we can transmit the energy more efficiently as electricity.
6. “Yet if we create hydrogen only by reforming hydrocarbons, many of the problems of a fossil-fuel economy, such as pollution and scarcity, will persist.”
I.e. Hydrogen is not a sustainable energy source. I have nothing further to add to this….
So I agree with the article you linked to, and I agree with the Willis Eschenbach post above, (which you think is cheap and specious), and I have not the slightest symptom of cognitive dissonance as a result.

Richard Lyman
July 1, 2013 5:34 am

There is always somebody working on something: http://www.cellaenergy.com/
I don’t know if it will ever make commercial production but pretty cool stuff anyway.

dearieme
July 1, 2013 5:48 am

I once wrote an examination question for a Very Distinguished University that referred to drilling a hydrogen well in the Irish Sea. Later I asked the examiner who marked the answers how many of the students had commented: “none”, said she.

wws
July 1, 2013 5:52 am

Willis, I must disagree with you on a crucial point. Yes, H2 is extremely difficult to produce and store (it’s just so darn attractive to any oxygen atoms hanging about) but nature long ago came up with a FANTASTIC way to store hydrogen with a very minor modification to the form. Hydrogen needs to be stabilized to be useful, and the best way to do that and still maintain most of the energy potential is to combine 4 hydrogen atoms with 1 carbon, which gives the molecule enough mass to make it containable and usable. This results in the rather miraculous energy storage unit known as CH4, and yes, you really CAN drill for it!
btw, it’s rather fun to point out to supporters of the “pure” hydrogen economy ideal that the only reliable, energy efficient, and scalable source of H2 is to break it out of CH4. (Oxygen is a jealous mistress, and it takes far too much energy to break the bonds in H2O) But if you’re going to do that, why not just save a step while cutting the complexity of your system way down and produce your energy by combusting CH4 directly? I wonder why no one ever thought of that – oh wait, they have.

July 1, 2013 5:53 am

Eric writes “Actually Willis does address this – he posits the theoretical maximum efficiency of Pd lattices as the energy density of liquid hydrogen, which is still 1/5 of the energy density of gasoline.”
However Hydrogen used in fuel cells has about twice the efficiency of gasoline and combustion engines are bigger and heavier than electric motors so the tradeoff isn’t nearly as cut and dry as Willis would have us believe.
The main problems with Hydrogen are inefficiency in production, difficulty of storage. These are both technical difficulties and in principle can be overcome. But today they haven’t been overcome and in that sense Willis is right that Hydrogen simply isn’t viable yet. But for me that’s not the issue.
Hydrogen is fundamentally a storage of energy not a medium to transport energy. Its transportability is why we might use it in cars.
Willis says (in bold no less) “hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is merely a way to transport energy from Point A to Point B.”
Well that is wrong.
He says “Hydrogen, though, is a very difficult beast to pump through a pipeline.” and WTF? The only reason we pipe oil is because it comes from one location. The well. Hydrogen doesn’t have that problem and you can in principle create it where ever you like. So if you need it in the city, you produce it in the city…and yes you get the energy there to create it through those wires…
The Hydrogen is used to store energy to create electricity not replace it. Willis never gives balanced reviews of alternative energies. Its always negative with him. He never even tries to explore any positives and that is telling of his bias.
He would do far better giving both sides of the argument and then if the technology isn’t viable (as Hydrogen isn’t) then that will come through.

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