
UPDATE: I’ve answered questions from commenters below in the FAQs, and added additional diagrams – Anthony
Much to the chagrin of people who are sure I’m evil, in the pocket of big oil, and highly carbon positive, I’m actually an independent and pretty energy efficient guy, and I challenge any of my detractors to show their solar and energy efficiency projects. Put your money where your mouthpiece is, I say. For example, do loud climate campaigners Joe Romm and Bill McKibben have solar power on their homes? Do Jim Hansen and Michael Mann have solar power while telling us we all must cut back our energy usage linked to fossil fuels? Inquiring minds want to know.
Readers may recall last summer that I put up my third solar power project, my first being on my older home, then a large 125KW solar project I started as Trustee for the Chico Unified School District. My third project is doing quite well, and a number of readers have asked for an update on my original article as they are considering doing what I have done. This being the day of the electricity denying “Earth Hour”, I thought it would be a good day to write about how I’m beating my electric bill. You see, while many tout the supposed CO2 saving properties of solar panels, my impetus is entirely different: I’m hedging against California’s exorbitant green-driven utility rates.
For example, see below from my bill last year when temperatures went up in the summer, and tell me if where you live you come anywhere close to paying what I do.
Above: my actual rate and costs from last summer June-July 2012.
Thanks to PG&E’s new smart-meter system, they can now gouge me more efficiently and on schedule, when I need electricity to keep cool the most. I doubt there’s anyone reading this entry that pays 93 cents per kilowatt-hour to keep their home cool in summer.
I (along with millions of others in California) pay what I call a “location tax” due to my living in California’s Sacramento Valley, where summer temperatures regularly hit and exceed 100F. The majority of California’s population, living along the coast, don’t see temperatures anywhere near that, and thus don’t have similar air conditioning issues.
And, with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) running amok with cap-and-trade regulation frenzy, with refusal of coal and nuclear energy, relying on green wind power mostly for the future, combined with a looming national Carbon Tax, finding a way to generate your own electricity is in my opinion, the best hedge against future cost increases. Climate concerns don’t even rate with me on this issue, I’m thinking more about my financial future and the health and comfort of my family, and that’s why I got a solar system – it’s a hedge against the green energy and climate madness.
Here’s how I beat the green menace and PG&E.
Remember back in December when climate scientist Dr. Michael Mann was so out of touch that he couldn’t even conceive that I could do calendars for myself (I sent him a free one), but instead it must have been some nefariously funded production? Well, he probably can’t conceive of how I put up my own solar system either, since like the Josh Calendars, I did it using COSTCO and some sweat equity.
Here’s a few FAQs.
1. Did “big oil” or some other entity pay you to do this?
No.
Did you use government grants to do this? No. Did you get money from the WUWT tip jar or calendar sales to do this? No.
So how did you pay for this? Simple. I took out a low-interest loan against my savings account the contents of which was then converted to a certificate of deposit spanning five years. I’ll have the solar system paid for in five years, and the CD will be free at that time. Then I’ll have a solar system and my savings principal intact plus I’ll get interest on the certificate of deposit. Basically I’m trading my PG&E electric bill for a financing bill for five years.
How much did it cost? About $25,000 and change, fully installed, plus shipping and tax on the hardware portion.
2. Why didn’t you get one of those “no money down” solar systems being advertised today?
I’m borrowing and adapting a popular credit card slogan to best explain this: “ownership has its advantages”. I looked into several of these other plans, and when I penciled out the entire scheme, it didn’t make much financial sense, and at the end of the lease, I either had to buy the system at “fair market value” (to be determined) or they come and remove the system. And given the number of solar company bankruptcy/failures out there (think Solyndra), I was concerned that I’d be straddled with a system that was orphaned due to the company going out of business and the debt purchased by some holding company, who could then argue that previous contracts were “null and void” due to such bankruptcy and “oh, by the way here’s your new payment schedule”. When you want to control your own destiny, relying on others is not a safe bet.
3. Grid-tied or battery storage?
It is a grid-tied system. Battery storage systems really don’t make any sense for a city dweller, as they are primarily off-the-grid type applications where you need independent power 24/7. This was primarily a financial consideration, not a power security one.
4. Did you get any government rebates?
No, there was a PG&E rebate program, which put about $1200 (based on my system size) back in my pocket, but as I said earlier, I got no government money related to this. There will be some small tax advantages for me.
5. Does it make any noise or heat?
No, the inverters are essentially silent, except for one small fan. The inverters do make some waste heat, but they are mounted outside, and not an issue. The solar panels actually help keep the house a bit cooler, as they absorb sunlight for a good portion of the roof space, which otherwise would have gone to heating the attic.
6. Has it saved you money?
Yes, absolutely. More details follow.
7. How does your power bill work now?
We get a quarterly summary showing our electric use/surplus, and a year-end “true up” bill to balance any difference. We still have to pay for natural gas usage separately.
8. How big is it? How much power?
36 panels, of 250watts each, for a maximum DC output of 9000 watts (9KW). Of course that’s under optimal sun angle and atmospheric conditions, and with DC to AC power conversion loss, the real max is closer to 6500 watts of AC power. Typical days run anywhere from 4500-5500 KW at peak sun. I opted for the better monocrystalline (blue color) panels rather than the polymorphous (brownish) solar panels as they are more efficient and longer lasting.
9. (added) How soon do you expect to be able to pay back your investment?
If I assume a linear payback rate, it would be about 12 years. However, I think it will be closer to 9 years based on my estimates of what the future holds. First, a look at recent rates by state:
Source: http://www.pacificpower.net/about/rr/rpc.html
Now, look at the forecast for residential electricity prices. It isn’t linear.
Source: US Department of Energy
10. (added) What is your cost of capital?
The way my loan is setup, guaranteed against a certificate of deposit earning interest, the APR works out to 0.8%. Over 5 years, that works out to be $511.66 for the cost of the loan.
11. (added) How does the mounting system affect your roof integrity? Will you get leaks?
The installation was guaranteed to be leak free, and after this winter rains, I can testify to that. The way the roof mount works, the screws used to secure the rack support post are put under a metal “flashing” cone, and screwed in with a sealant applied to the screw threads. This guarantees that there’s no rain penetration because the flashing not only prevents the screws from getting rain in the first place, the flashing acts just like another shingle. Here’s a diagram I prepared showing how it works:
See a descriptive animation here: http://www.unirac.com/video/animations/solarmount-i/index.html
12. Why didn’t you go with larger panels (like the 300 watt panels of the same size).
Because the volume pricing COSTCO had arranged (at that time) did not offer that size. Adding my 2% COSTCO rebate combined with the lower overall cost made the 250watt panels a no-brainer.
Specs on the panels are here:
GRAPE SOLAR 250W MONO PDF
13. How was the system shipped?
It arrived by truck as two large pallets, plus a third long package of rails. I stored these in my garage, unpacked them, and hauled the shipping materials to my office dumpster.
14. What about possible hail damage?
The rated impact resistance: hail diameter of 28mm (1.1″) with speed of 86km/h. (53mph)
These panels are really tough. My installer says you can drop them from the roof onto the concrete and they’ll survive just fine (he’s done it by accident more than once). here is a video and a news item that suggests the panels are tougher than the roofing.
News item:
Surprisingly little damage to rooftop solar panels
The epic hailstorm did surprisingly little damage to the tens of thousands of pricey solar-power arrays built on metro Phoenix rooftops in recent years.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20110930biz-hailstorm1002solar.html
======================
Purchasing the system
As I mentioned, I used COSTCO to buy the entire hardware system. They resell from a company in Oregon called “Grape Solar“. Here’s their largest package:
I actually wanted more power than that, so I contacted Grape Solar directly, described my needs, showed my house roof plan and power bills, and they came up with a custom design for me at no charge. Here’s the line item summary of what I bought:
I did a lot of research on this system, and found it was well designed and likely to live up to its claims, 8 months in, so far so good.
NOTE: Detailed instructions on how to order your own system from COSTCO follow at the end of this article.
Here’s links to manuals (PDF) on the items above:
- Grid-tied Solar System Layout Example
- Solar System Install Guide
- Solar Panel Specification Sheet
- PV Power Inverter Manual
- Solar System Quickstart Guide
I particularly like the Kaco Blue Planet DC to AC PV inverters, which are compact, quiet, efficient, and good-looking to boot. Here they are (5000 watt and 3500 watt models) on the side of my home with the PG&E SmartMeter. DC power comes in at the conduit from the solar panels at top right, AC power exits at bottom left in the curved conduit to junction box to tie into my AC mains breaker box.
=======================
Installing the solar system
While I “could” have done the entire installation myself, having mad electric and electronic skills, I opted to have someone experienced in this particular technology do it for me. The Grape Solar company contact gave me a list of certified installers in the area, and I called each of them up and asked them questions. The guy who held up under my intense questioning (A fellow in Redding named Baran Galocy) got the job. For some of the installers, I knew more than they did, never a good sign. Choose wisely.
Plus, this fellow was willing to work with me to trade some sweat equity for a lower installation cost. Since a good portion of time is spent in transport, unpacking, staging, and disposal of packaging, I opted to perform those tasks in sync with his job schedule to save labor time and thus money. Check with an installer you might choose to see if they will do the same for you.
Permits, of course are required. The first step was getting a city work permit, so that the city could get their “cut”. I say this because their inspection was total BS, the inspector never opened a panel box or climbed on the roof to inspect panels. He was most interested in whether mandated warning labels like this below (to protect the stupid) were properly applied. Your mileage in your city may vary. Fortunately the installer handled getting these, keeping my blood pressure down.
The next step was to put up the UNIRAC mounting system on the roof:
This took about three partial work days to complete, since only mad dogs and Englishmen work on rooftops in the midday summer sun. Here it is completed:
The next step was placing and securing panels, while doing base panel wiring:
Note the ladder contraption at the right. This is carpet remnants secured to ladder and rooftop. Shown in red to the left of the ladder is a nylon rope hawser with clips I designed that allows the man on top to pull up the panels while I push from below. This saves your back, plus virtually eliminates the possibility of dropping them and/or an injurious fall. The carpet prevents the panels from being scratched or damaged while they are pulled up.
This paneling operation took about two partial work days to complete.
Finally, the last step was to hang the inverters on the outside wall and to finish all the interconnect wiring. which took about another day.
Waiting for the city building inspector and for PG&E to “approve” the installation for grid connect took far longer than the actual installation. Then I discovered that PG&E changed one of their forms in the middle of the process, and we had to re-do the paperwork. While the install was competed in August, we didn’t actually get the final connect and switchover to net metering until December. Ain’t bureaucracy grand? I was just unlucky, you can figure about 2-4 weeks in most cases.
==========================
Results!
Here is a photo of my SmartMeter running today at about 940AM:
The 5.01 kW reading is my instantaneous generation, note at the right side it says “Received”. If I am using more power than I generate (or it is nighttime) that will switch to say “Delivered”. So now as I’m writing this, I’m 5kW net positive at my home.
At the top, in the big numbers is the summation of Kilowatt-hours over the lifetime of the meter. When the meter is delivered, it is set to read 00000. If I am using more electricity than I generate, it will show a net positive value (i.e 00234) if I have generated more electricity than I used, it will go backwards from 99999 and as this shows I’m at 99340, leaving a surplus of 660 Kilowatt-hours since the system was switched over in December. most of December and January was fairly overcast here, so my biggest gains have been recent, as shown in my SmartMeter summary online (highlighted in Yellow), I’ve now surpassed energy-efficient homes in my area:
My usage has gone negative:
Nice to see the money flowing to me too, here’s my quarterly bill:
Unfortunately, I still have to pay all those taxes and fees amounting to $4.66, even though I’m a net generator rather than a consumer, but I’ll take the deal.
================
How this works
The strategy is simple, generate/save as much electricity as you can during non-summer months, bank it (as shown on the meter) and then draw against that bank of generated energy during the summer or when you need power. Hopefully at the end of the true-up period, I’ll end up with surplus, in which case PG&E is now mandated by state law to send me a check. Amazingly, it didn’t used to be that way, and they were getting free surplus electricity.
If at the end of the true-up period, I used electricity, I pay for that then. Since I’m able to watch usage online and on the SmartMeter, it should be manageable to ensure we come out ahead (unless we have an extended heat wave). No matter what though, we are pretty much free of the tyranny of the 90 cents per kilowatt-hour in the summer when tiered rates kick in to punish us valley dwellers.
More info on the net metering program is here: http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/solarupgrade/index.page
=========================
Do you want one for yourself? Here’s how you can help yourself and help me in the process.
Since I’ve done all the work of documenting the process, the Grape Solar Company has agreed to offer me a finders fee for anyone who purchases a similar system through them via COSTCO. Here’s how to do it:
1. Contact Steve Bouton or Garret Towne at Grape Solar via telephone or by email:
Grape Solar, Inc. 1305 South Bertelsen Road, Eugene, Oregon 97402
Tel: 541.349.9000 Fax: 541.343.9000
Email: steven.bouton “at” grapesolar.com or garret.towne “at” grapesolar.com
2. Tell them you read this article, give them my name so they will credit me.
3. Give them your details, they will design a system to suit your needs free of charge. They’ll need your address, description of your view of the sky to the south (sometimes visible on Google Earth) plus your goals for electricity saving, (full replacement, supplemental, add as you go, etc.). Arrange financing if need be – note how I used my local bank to finance a loan against my savings account for a win-win.
4. Grape Solar will set you up with a custom order you can place on COSTCO.com that will include everything you will need. Then contact an installer. They’ll also supply a list of installers in your area if you don’t wish to do the work yourself. As I mentioned, you may be able to do some work yourself to help the installer to save money. Be sure to ask.
5. You’ll make the order with COSTCO, either you’ll need a credit card with a high limit or you’ll have to wire the money to COSTCO (which is what I did). BE SURE TO ASK TO HAVE YOUR COSTCO MEMBERSHIP NUMBER APPLIED TO THE SALE. This will ensure that if you have an account that gives you a rebate for year total purchases, you’ll get that year-end 2% cash back. 2% of a $20K system is $400, well worth the effort!
6. You have your installer get work permits and do the paperwork with your local utility company – this is key. Without these being done right, you are dead in the water. make sure your installer will do these for you.
7. Install the system – get it inspected and turned on. Submit final paperwork to your local utility company for any rebate programs they may have.
8. Keep all your paperwork for tax time – you may be eligible for tax credits – check with your tax preparer.
9. Enjoy a lower or zero power bill
============================
I hope this gives everyone who is interested the path forward. if you have questions about this please ask in comments. – Anthony
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MrX says:
March 23, 2013 at 2:47 pm
I don’t see how others are subsidizing Anthony’s energy use. He’s now producing his own energy and selling it to the power company.
————————————————–
You have to do an overall cost/benefit computation for the economy to understand this and it is basically very easy to do.
Those solar cells do not replace any powerplants nor any grid infrastructure, they do not make any services (like meter reading) redunant. so In essence, they only save fuel at conventional power plants, which may come to a saving of about 1 cent /kWh. Compare this to a feed in tariff of 20 cent/kWh or so. The benefit for the economy is less than 10% of the cost and this has to be paid by someone.
Even if you consume the energy by yourself, above does not change. It does change if you go completely off the grid. But that requires batteries with multi week capacity.
HUGE house! Big Oil MUST have paid for it!
climatereason says:
March 23, 2013 at 3:22 pm
“How many hours of sunshine/bright light sufficient for power generation do you get per year?”
He should get about 2,500 per year.
RHL says:
March 23, 2013 at 3:27 pm
“The warning on the breaker panel about the PV system is both for electicians and firefighters to take precautions.”
Even at night 700 to 1000 Volt depending on the number of panels can build up; full moon suffices; very little current but enough voltage to kill. The precaution by the firefighters is to let the building burn down and save the neighbourhood.
Manfred says:
March 23, 2013 at 4:01 pm
The benefit for the economy is less than 10% of the cost and this has to be paid by someone.
————————————————–
Benefit to the economy? That does not imply subsidy. And what needs to be paid by someone? Anthony is still paying for the energy he uses (whether from the install and purchase cost of his panels or through the energy company).
So where does the subsidy come into play?
The point is Anthony (one of my true heros) seems to have installed the system because CA has made the rates artificially high. The only way liberals can move us into the wind/solar arena is to make conventional power vastly more expensive. Anthony has made the correct personal choice but it was forced upon him. Abundant natural gas production of electricity is so much more economical.
Sadly, California has made Anthony spend time on his roof instead of at his computer where he works diligently to enlighten us all. A waste of precious talent, in my opinion.
Anthony, you did the math but the game was rigged from the beginning. Hope you spend more time in the future “going to get em” than “going green.”
Anthony, bravo.
We did a similar thing on my Wisconsin farm back in the early 1980’s, except our cost problem was winter heating fuel (LPG) not air conditioning. We don’t have A/C. On the few hot days, we don’t suck it up. We quit working and spend the day on the nearby Wisconsin River. (The farm is only about 5 miles from Taleisin.)
Solution was a stove/ firebox/fireplace in the family room, plus a double walled firebox/fan connected directly to the LPG furnace plenum in the basement. Plus about 8 true (not face) cords of split firewood per year, harvested strictly from deadfall in the 100 acres of forest on the place. Totally renewable green. And the best thing about that firewood is, it warms you twice, while avoiding gym fees.
Of course, for this Energy solution to work, first you have to have a farm…and most don’t. But we don’t get enough winter sun for your PV solution to help, and our electric bills are low (whole farm with everything runs maybe $40/month including 3 well pumps for 3 barns, milking machines…).
Moral of the story, Mann, McCribben, Gore et. al. lost touch with reality a long time ago.
Regards
Wouldn’t have been simpler to move to Oregon?
Matt in Houston asked:
“Have you ever thought about installing a misting system around your AC heat exchanger to increase it’s efficiency?”
Years ago, when I lived in Houston, I remembered something my Thermo Prof showed us one day, which he explained was a trick window A/C manufacturers use, so I routed the stream of cold condensate taken from the air in the house (typically plenty of humidity in Houston) by the evaporator. to drip onto the condenser fan, so that it would be slung through the coils. It seemed to help. Between that, a power vent in the attic and film on windows exposed to direct sun, my electric bills were nearly halved.
I kept an eye out for corrosion (my biggest concern) or fouling. I didn’t see any, but I sold the house a couple years later, so I don’t know if the condenser coils were short lived. I also planted some shrubs to provide some shade for the condenser, but they had’nt yet matured enough.
I moved to San Diego, and have not needed A/C. I have thought about solar, but I have a flat roof, and the potential for leaks scares me.
Manfred says:
March 23, 2013 at 4:01 pm
“Compare this to a feed in tariff of 20 cent/kWh or so. The benefit for the economy is less than 10% of the cost and this has to be paid by someone. ”
If Anthony gets ripped off by a fantastic price of 90 cent/kWh and claws back some by getting 20cent /kWh (don’t know if he does) it’s a little different in my opinion, we are basically entering the land of Alice-In-Wonderland-economics where a political monopoly provider (PG&E) dictates completely bizarre conditions; the only thing you care for is to Keep Your Head under these conditions. A kind of artificial post-apocalyptic every-man-for-himself against the Red Queen…
Better not set foot in California if it can at all be avoided… crazier than the EU. And THAT’S crazy.
Most of Anthony’s savings obviously come from avoiding the punitive tier 3 and 4 tariffs. Not from feeding in.
PG&E has a Demand Response program called the Smart Rate program http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/energysavingprograms/smartrate/plandetails/index.page
When an Event Day occurs Smart Rate pricing occurs:
“What you’ll pay and where you’ll save.
With the Summer Pricing Plan, your savings are calculated by combining the discounted rates you pay between June and September, with the surcharge that is in effect between 2 p.m. and 7 p.m. on SmartDays. Because no more than 15 SmartDays are called each season, you’ll be paying the discounted rate the majority of the time. When you effectively manage your energy use on SmartDays, you can end up with a net discount over the summer season.
Summer Pricing Credits and Surcharge
Residential energy charges are calculated by using your previous pricing plan with the following adjustments:
Summer Pricing Plan customers will receive a credit of $0.02992/kWh for energy usage from June 1 through September 30, with the exception that the credit will not be given for energy usage that occurs from 2 p.m. to 7 p.m. on SmartDays.
From June 1 through September 30, Summer Pricing Plan participants will receive an extra credit of $0.01/kWh for usage in tiers 3, 4 and 5.
Summer Pricing Plan participants will be charged a $0.60/kWh surcharge in addition to the regular rate for just five hours (from 2 p.m. to 7 p.m.) on each SmartDay.”
@Andrew Harding of NE England –
Like Anthony, I live in Chico, California. Chico is in the northern Sacramento Valley, the northern portion of the Great Valley of California. The latitude here in Chico is about 39 degrees 40 minutes north. We are on the edge of California’s Mediterranean climate zone – a little farther north, past Redding, you enter a high altitude-type climate with much colder winter temperatures, Here in Chico, summer temperatrues can reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit (about 49 Celsius). That’s rare, but temps of 105 to 110 do regularly occur in our summers. In winter, temperatures can get down into the teens (minus 10 Celsius), and once every few years we might get a light dusting of snow, but that’s the extent of winter here.
I have a much older solar system on my house, installed in 2002. Though much smaller and less up to date than Anthony’s, it has nevertheless saved me at least 60 percent on my electric bill, for a 3,000-square-foot (290 square meters) house. While AC is not the issue where you live, Andrew, it still might pay to have the solar panels, from what I understand concerning the carbon-taxed electricd rates in the UK. I’d recommend you look into how much it might save you.
I’d be real interested to hear if Mann, Hansen, Gore, Obama or any of those other alarmist blatherskites have solar panels on their houses.
You are lucky that the regulation and the supplier still accept yearly acounting.
In Denmark the regulation was the same untill this year. Now the law is that you only count on an hourly basis, so you can not save in the summer to use in the winter or daytime to use nighttime, and that is perhabs more important in Denmark than in Califonia. (Did i mention that the meters are not at all ready yet? But thats a minor detail, besides that EU now has to accept the payment for the surplus, because now it has become a competing case).
The electricity price for private users are around 2 to 2.2 kroner for a kWh ( ~32c ). If you produce more than you use in each hour you are paid 1.3dKr, but that payment is reduced over 20 years. It is a bit difficult to comprehend, but the raw trading price for electricity without any taxes, grid costs and so on is in Scandinavia around 0.3dKr/kWh. (Nordpol spot prices).
It means that even coalfired powerplants have hard times to match, and the result is that those surviving are those that also supply district heating.
The whole energy market in Denmark and most of Scandinavia is so meshed up with regulations, taxes and incentives that hardly any one can figure out what a kWh of energy should cost.
Thanks for the update. Some great comments and questions. I’m pretty sure we will be using Costco and Grape Solar panels within a year. I’ll be sure to tell them you sent us.
Please give us another update when you get through a couple summer months.
This is the first detailed report I have read from a consumer.
Great job Anthony!.
Your note about the high end being close to a dollar a kwh reminded me of my son’s time in Japan. I believe that the normal cost is about 75 cents a kwh. They are only now looking to Canada about insulating homes and buildings. He worked in a school near Nagano where the hallways were below freezing in the winter as they were not heated. I do not know how solar would work there – do they get enough sun.
Good to see you walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
I haven’t read all the comments above, but I am wondering if anyone is aware of the amount of CO2 emissions your installation generated? You were probably never told, but the production of the silicon metal used in your PV cells involves the release of truly huge quantities of CO2 – probably more by weight than the silicon produced. This factor is never discussed in the promotional literature, and I suspect would be denied by the companies that sold you the panels. If they know themselves.
I talked to the silicon cell guru for the IPCC, and received a flat denial that CO2 emissions are a problem in silicon production. He understands the process of smelting silicon from quartz, but excuses the CO2 emitted by claiming that the carbon used in the smelter is all from charcoal, and thus is not fossil CO2. This is not, of course, correct. Only one smelter in my experience used hardwood charcoal was in South Africa (don’t know if they still do – they were making a significant dent in the remaining hardwood forest when I was last there). Others use anthracite coal, or some other reduced form of fossil hydrocarbons. The central electrode of the reduction furnace is pure graphite, as fossil as carbon can get, and gets used up in the production. Making silicon releases lots and lots of CO2, should that be a concern to you.
The CO2 production in silicon smelting is the dirty secret of the PV-generation industry.
I see solar installations hereabouts, though how effective they are I don’t know. We’re at 42° 16′ 45″ N in eastern Massachusetts. I’ve got a south-facing side hip roof. Our electric bill (no AC) is about $200 a month. I haven’t done the calculations, but figure with the limited sun (especially in winter, and a fair amount of snow) it would take a long time to amortize the cost of a solar-power supplement.
As for those who criticize Anthony for taking advantage of ‘green’ policies that may in fact depend on taxpayer or ratepayer subsidies, more power to him, as it were. I don’t approve of Medicare, and I think it’s a looming disaster for the country (especially as it balloons into socialized medicine for everyone), but I take advantage of it, as well as whatever tax advantages the insane IRS rules give me. You have to look our for yourself and your family first.
Just wait until the Obummer administration finishes stomping on the coal industry, killing fracking for gas and oil, and pushing carbon taxes, ‘alternative energy’, and similar eco-nazi insanity on us. As California goes, so goes the nation. Except maybe Texas. I’d like to move to Texas (hey, “Bob Wills is still the king”), but my wife says it’s too far from the grandkids.
/Mr Lynn
Be advised, the starting current of AC induction motors (like a fridge compressor even!) is MANY times normal operating current ‘draw’, and today’s cheapie generators have little reserve to provide these kinds of starting currents! In years gone by, larger cross-section generator wire windings and heavier flywheels (with e=1/mv^2 inertia improvement) were able accommodate these starting currents, but today’s more-often-than-not lightweight Chinese made gens won’t supply those high starting ‘surge’ currents. If in doubt, test first, maybe using a friends already-purchased genny!
And Anthony, thanks for sharing details on your project; my highest bill is on the order of US $150, achieved through conservation measures with rates in Texas at 33 N Latitude (HOT summers) between 9 and 11 cents per kWH.
.
Wow! Talk about differential economy..(CA versust the midwest, dorkey, seasonal, NOT “perfect” climate…midwest, NOT the “Golden Land” by any means..)
Even though I do some moderate A/C in my midwest location, and (of course) heat, I’m NO WHERE NEAR THESE COSTS. Being currently an unemployed (late 50’s) Engineer, I have a strategy plotted out to SURVIVE until Nov/Dec, when I must (really, if I don’t want to dive into a DEEP economic hole) sell my house, and move to much cheaper digs (probably a double wide in AZ). SO I have JUST ABOUT THE $ that Anthony is spending on his PV system TO SURVIVE ON until said “drop dead” time.
Indeed, if I were in Anthony’s situation, I think a FAN and a margarita with a lot of store bought ICE would be my only alternative. OH LOOK another late season Snow Storm is coming! Time to chop down a couple more of my oaks to burn them up. (Joining the PENSIONERS in G.B. in fuel poverty!) I guess ever circumstance is very “relative” isn’t it?
Max
Wait – wait – wait; in the aggregate, that last ‘marginally’ produced MWH would not have to be produced by the PGE generators, ever, if, in the aggregate systems like Anthony’s were in place and able to produce power during peak (i.e. demand) consumption hours … as ‘peak’ demand can occur into the evening hours (at least in Texas) as the sun sets the amount of energy produced will taper off, obviously. And, the energy transferred via high-voltage transmission lines from the generating station to substations (where distribution level voltages are created from the HV lines coming in) would be less as well, since generation is in effect occurring out among the ‘loads’ (i.e. in the ‘load center’) themselves … Of course, this is idealistically speaking, with mileage varying as we are nowhere near this situation at the present (AND we may not get there either, but, that is subject for disc. at another time).
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Well, this is called the “need” being meet. The need being contrirved by a bunch of eco freeks who think tha man and CO2 are the problem. They forced the pricing so high that this type of system and its cost are financially feasabile when they are really not necessary. I guess that is my “gripe” about this. That being said, awesome project!
I have a hybrid 3,000 watt PV array / 5 Kw wind geneartor with 15,000 amp/hours of storage. Two twin outback 5,000 watt inverters with charge controllers. Were paying just the 5 dollars a month fee to keep a meter on my home becasue they won’t pay the reverse input to the system out in the boonies.. (if I didnt need the welder and lath I would not have a meter) We have one 6kw generator for emergencies during the winter.
Being on the great divide (widnzone 5) the wind generator pretty much keeps the battery bank at 90% +. The PV array is there just for the summer when the winds are low and cooling is necessary! The PV array is on a pole and the wind generator is in the air 35 feet. (love the brushless PMA) greese the berings three times a year and watch it go…
And like you it was done as a practicality issue over 7 years (and the fact living in the boonies the power goes out frequently) the system was paid for out of pocket and is paid off.. Takes a bit of maintencne time each week but well worth the time. We even placed three 600w dump loads in a 200 gallon pre heater tank for the water heater which is propane gas. Very often the preheat tank is at hot water temp. (kids love long hot showers – so do I) Ive been contemplating a sun room and with a little pre planning I would bet a floor liqued heating system would be a good investment.. Still need to do some calcs before we take that one by the horns..
And all due to necesity… Rural area an all.. I like having power when the neighbors do not..
as a meter reading professonal, i have the following observation:
does the meter keep rolling back and forth over itsself (the 0.0 anomily line)? think y2k:
you’re down 2kWhrs (k), now down 1.9 2k, wait down 2.1k. each time you cross the 0.0 anomoly line, how is that handled? when does the 21st century begin? is it 2000 years or the beginning of the 21st century? inquiring customers want to know…
0.1kWhrs/month error * $0.12/kWhr * 10,000 customers *12 mo/yr could be a tidy error sum over the years.
meter readings have this problem evey month when meters “turn over” from 999999 to 000000, you add to the problem each time by going back and forth over the 0.0 “anomoly” line. it is possible to mis-aggregate the commodity consumed when you actually do something (invoice / credit) with the data…
i would ask to audit the calculation to assure you get all the anomoly crossover value you accrue…
iron brian
Manfred says:
March 23, 2013 at 4:01 pm
You have to do an overall cost/benefit computation for the economy to understand this and it is basically very easy to do.
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nonsense. Anthony is replacing an expensive service with a lower cost one. Normally this would be seen as improving the efficiency of the economy.
Cost/benefit for the economy? By that measure the state should get rid of everyone over 65.
Taxpayers are all subsidizing anyone that is costing the economy more than they are providing. This includes politicians that make bad decisions that cost the economy millions, or funnel subsidies to their insider cronies in return for campaign contributions. We are subsidizing them as well. If Anthony improves the quality of political decisions and reduces the mistakes made in the name of “saving the world” he has done a lot more than most.
Want to know how the government makes something worth $1 million? They start with something worth $10 million…
and there is sufficient storage to have power for three-seven days
Anthony,
Congratulations on compensating your electricity generation costs and beating a horrible government policy that requires people to undertake extraordinary measures to live comfortably based on phony science.
As I see it you have some advantages ( I sort of hate to use this word) over most homeowners.
1) One you are smart enough to go through the complex economics to determine how to optimize your home electricity system, Think of the average Joe or a senior citizen trying to figure this out?
2) You live in and area where there is lots of sun and little impediments such as snow or excessive weather that shields solar collection.
3) You have been responsible enough to have saved some financial resources to implement the project efficiently.
I feel sorry for those who due to financial or other reasons such as lack of skills to wade through the complex government regulation/mandates to cut their costs. They become vulnerable to charlatans.
The government has become the enemy of the people who are being hurt by these mandates while the vultures are making handsome profits having built subsidized generation facilities and selling electricity at guaranteed inflated rates .
Living in Northern NJ where winters are cold and sun energy considerably less abundant, I have not studied the issue to anywhere near the extent you have. Although NJ regulations are not yet as onerous as California, we may not be too far behind. Due to stupid green energy mandates we do have electricity rates amongst the highest in the Country and it seem as though the payback for solar is much less than California without huge subsidies. The ugly facts are that while NJ has 3 Nuclear plants, NJ high rates are excessive because the power companies are forced to purchase a certain % of “green” energy through a government created exchange. Often the power companies are force to purchase green energy at rates of 0.50 cents a kilowatt hr. and higher . Consequently I pay about 16 cents a KWH including delivery, etc. to subsidize green energy
http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewable-energy/project-activity-reports/srec-pricing/srec-pricing
Thanks again for your informative presentation.
It appears that the exorbitant rates in Cal (and ultimately NJ) are artificially created to force people into investing into green energy by making conventional energy too expensive, even if it makes no economic or scientific sense and drives business overseas. The connected buddies of the people in power get rich and contribute to the re election of the political machine. “In NJ we call that pay to play” and it ruins the jobs in the State and has converted NJ from one of the richest states to one deeply in debt in 4 short years.