The logical case against climate panic

How the profiteers who market Thermageddon offend against the principles of formal logic

Guest post by Monckton of Brenchley

LOGIC is the heartbeat of all true learning – the soul of the Classics, the Sciences and Religion. Once everyone studied the Classics, to know that in logic there is a difference between true and false; the Sciences, to discern where it lies; and Religion, to appreciate why it matters. Today, few study all three empires of the mind. Fewer study the ordered beauty of the logic at their heart.

Is Private Fraser’s proposition that “We’re a’ doomed!” logical? I say No. G.K. Chesterton once wrote: “When men have ceased to believe in Christianity, it is not that they will believe in nothing. They will believe in anything.” The belief that Thermageddon will arise from our altering 1/3000th of the atmosphere in a century is in-your-face illogical, rooted in a dozen fallacies marked out by Aristotle as the commonest in human discourse.

“Consensus” is the New Religion’s central fallacy. Arguing blindly from consensus is the head-count fallacy, the argumentum ad populum. Al-Haytham, founder of the scientific method, wrote: “The seeker after truth does not put his faith in any mere consensus. Instead, he checks.”

Two surveys have purported to show 97% of climate scientists supporting the supposed “consensus”. In both, 97% agreed little more than that the world has warmed since 1950. So what? One involved just 79 scientists, hardly a scientific sample size. Neither was selected to eliminate bias. Neither asked whether manmade global warming was at all likely to prove catastrophic – a question expecting the answer “No.”

Claiming that the “consensus” is one of revered experts is the argumentum ad verecundiam, the fallacy of appeal to authority. T.H. Huxley said in 1860, “The improver of natural knowledge absolutely refuses to acknowledge authority, as such. For him, scepticism is the highest of duties: blind faith the one unpardonable sin.”

Believers talk of a “consensus of evidence”. Yet evidence cannot hold opinions. Besides, there has been no global warming for 18 years; sea level has risen for eight years at just 1.3 in/century; notwithstanding Sandy, hurricane activity is at its least in the 33-year satellite record; ocean heat content is rising four and a half times more slowly than predicted; global sea-ice extent has changed little; Himalayan glaciers have not lost ice; and the U.N.’s 2005 prediction of 50 million “climate refugees” by 2010 was absurd. The evidence does not support catastrophism.

Believers say: “Only if we include a strong warming effect from CO2 can we explain the past 60 years’ warming. We know of no other reason.” This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, the fundamental fallacy of argument from ignorance. Besides, natural variability is reason enough.

They say: “Global warming is accelerating, so we are to blame.” Even if warming were accelerating, this non sequitur is an instance of the argumentum ad causam falsam, the fallacy of arguing from a false cause. They go on to say: “CO2 concentration has risen; warming has occurred; the former caused the latter.” This is the post hoc ergo propter hoc sub-species of the same fallacy.

They say: “What about the cuddly polar bears?” This is the argumentum ad misericordiam, the fallacy of needless pity. There are five times as many polar bears as there were in the 1940s – hardly, as you may think, the profile of a species at imminent threat of extinction. No need to pity the bears, and they are not cuddly.

They say: “We tell the models there will be strong CO2- driven warming. And, yes, the models predict it.” This is the fallacy of arguing in circles, the argumentum ad petitionem principii, where the premise is the conclusion.

They say: “Global warming caused extra-tropical storm Sandy.” This inappropriate argument from the general to the particular is the argumentum a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid, the fallacy of accident. Individual extreme events cannot be ascribed to global warming.

They say: “Melting Arctic sea ice is a symptom of global warming.” This unsound argument from the particular to the general is the argumentum a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter, the fallacy of converse accident. Arctic sea ice is melting, but the Antarctic has cooled for 30 years and the sea ice there is growing, so the decline in Arctic sea ice does not indicate a global problem.

They say: “Monckton says he’s a member of the House of Lords, but the Clerk says he isn’t, so he’s not credible.” This is the argumentum ad hominem, a shoddy sub- species of ignoratio elenchi, the fundamental red-herring fallacy of ignorance of how a true argument is conducted.

They say: “We don’t care what the truth is. We want more power, tax and regulation. Global warming is our pretext. If you disagree, we will haul you before the International Climate Court.” This is the nastiest of all logical fallacies: the argumentum ad baculum, the argument of force.

These numerous in-your-face illogicalities provoke four questions: Has the Earth warmed as predicted? If not, why not? What if I am wrong? And what if I am right?

Q1. Has the Earth warmed as predicted? In 1990 the IPCC predicted that the world would now be warming at 0.3 Cº/decade, and that by now more than 0.6 Cº warming would have occurred. The outturn was less than half that: just 0.14 Cº/decade and 0.3 Cº in all.

In 2008 leading modellers wrote:

“The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 years or more, suggesting that an absence of warming of this duration is needed to create a discrepancy with the observed warming rate.”

Yet the linear trend on the Hadley/CRU monthly global temperature anomalies for the 18 years 1995-2012 shows no statistically-significant warming, even though the partial pressure of CO2 rose by about a tenth in that time.

The modellers’ own explicit criterion proves their scary predictions exaggerated. Their vaunted “consensus” was wrong. Global warming that was predicted for tomorrow but has not occurred for 18 years until today cannot have caused Sandy or Bopha yesterday, now, can it?

Q2: Why was the “consensus” wrong? Why do the models exaggerate? The climate-sensitivity equation says warming is the product of a forcing and a sensitivity parameter. Three problems: the modellers’ definition of forcing is illogical; their assumptions about the sensitivity parameter are not falsifiable; and their claims that their long-term predictions of doom are reliable are not only empirically disproven but theoretically insupportable.

Modellers define forcing as the net down-minus-up flux of radiation at the tropopause, with surface temperature fixed. Yet forcings change surface temperature. So the definition offends against the fundamental postulate of logic that a proposition and its converse cannot coexist. No surprise, then, that since 1995 the IPCC has had to cut its estimate of the CO2 forcing by 15%. The “consensus” disagrees with itself. Note in passing that the CO2 forcing function is logarithmic: each further molecule causes less warming than those before it. Diminishing returns apply.

Direct warming is little more than 1 Cº per CO2 doubling, well within natural variability. It is not a crisis. So the modellers introduce amplifying or “positive” temperature feedbacks, which, they hope, triple the direct warming from CO2. Yet this dubious hypothesis is not Popper- falsifiable, so it is not logic and not science. Not one of the imagined feedbacks is either empirically measurable or theoretically determinable by any reliable method. As an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report, I have justifiably excoriated its net-positive feedbacks as guesswork – uneducated guesswork at that.

For there is a very powerful theoretical reason why the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity interval 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74]. However, process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is far too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification function.

At high gain, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling. Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long- run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether inconsistent with a loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as modellers’ estimates imply.

Surface temperature changes little, for homoeostatic conditions prevail. The atmosphere’s lower bound, the ocean, is a vast heat-sink 1100 times denser than the air: one reason why 3000 bathythermographs deployed in 2006 have detected no significant ocean warming. The atmosphere’s upper bound is outer space, to which any excess heat radiates harmlessly away. Homoeostasis, then, is what we should expect, and it is what we get. Thus the climatic loop gain cannot much exceed zero, so the warming at CO2 doubling will be a harmless 1 Cº.

Yet the overriding difficulty in trying to model the climate is that it behaves as a chaotic object. We can never measure the values of its millions of defining parameters at any chosen moment to a sufficient precision to permit reliable projection of the bifurcations, or Sandy-like departures from an apparently steady state, that are inherent in the evolution of all objects that behave chaotically. Therefore, reliable, very-long-term modelling of future climate states is unattainable a priori.

The IPCC tries to overcome this actually insuperable Lorenz constraint on modelling by estimating climate sensitivity via a probability-density function. Yet PDFs require more, not less, information than simple estimates flanked by error-whiskers, and are still less likely to be reliable. The modellers are guessing. Their guesses have been proven wrong. Yet they continue to demand our acquiescence in an imagined (and imaginary) consensus.

Q3: What if I am wrong? If so, we must travel from physics to economics. Pretend, ad argumentum, that the IPCC’s central estimate of 2.8 Cº warming by 2100 is true, and that Stern was right to say that the cost of failing to prevent warming of that order this century will be about 1.5% of GDP. Then, at the minimum 5% market inter-temporal discount rate, the cost of trying to abate this decade’s predicted warming of 0.15 Cº by typical CO2-mitigation schemes as cost-ineffective as Australia’s carbon tax would be 48 times greater than the cost of later adaptation. At a zero discount rate, the cost of acting now exceeds that of adapting in the future 36 times over.

How so? Australia emits just 1.2% of Man’s CO2, of which Ms. Gillard aims to cut 5% this decade, abating 0.06% of global emissions by 2020. Then CO2 concentration will fall from a predicted 410 μatm to 409.988 μatm. In turn predicted temperature will fall by 0.00006 Cº. But the cost will be $130 billion ($2 quadrillion/Cº). Abating the

0.15 Cº warming predicted for this decade would thus cost $317 trillion, or $45,000/head worldwide, or 59% of global GDP. Mitigation measures inexpensive enough to be affordable will thus be ineffective: measures expensive enough to be effective will be unaffordable. Since the premium vastly exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure. That is a precautionary principle worthy of the name.

Q4: What if I am right? When I am proven right, the Climate Change Department will be swept away; Britain’s annual deficit will fall by a fifth; the bat-blatting, bird- blending windmills that scar our green and pleasant land will go; the world will refocus on real environmental problems like deforestation on land, overfishing at sea and pollution of the air; the U.N.’s ambition to turn itself into a grim, global dictatorship with overriding powers of taxation and economic and environmental intervention will be thwarted; and the aim of science to supplant true religion as the world’s new, dismal, cheerless credo will be deservedly, decisively, definitively defeated.

Any who say “I believe” are not scientists, for true scientists say “I wonder”. We require – nay, we demand – more awe and greater curiosity from our scientists, and less political “correctness” and co-ordinated credulity.

To the global classe politique, the placemen, bureaucrats, academics, scientists, journalists and enviros who have profiteered at our expense by peddling Thermageddon, I say this. The science is in; the truth is out; Al Gore is through; the game is up; and the scare is over.

To those scientists who aim to end the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, I say this. Logic stands implacable in your path. We will never let you have your new Dark Age.

To men of goodwill, lovers of logic, I say this. It is our faculty of reason, the greatest of the soul’s three powers, that marks us out from the beasts and brings us closest in likeness to our Creator, the Lord of Life and Light. We will never let the light of Reason be snuffed out.

Do not go gentle to that last goodnight – Rage, rage against the dying of the light!

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January 7, 2013 12:58 pm

Dear Christopher,
Late to the party (as always), I commend you for your stylish prose in this article, which towards the end becomes almost Churchillian.
Some would prefer to see a version with the religious references removed. In my view, that would be a futile exercise, for the result would not be Monckton. To the doubters. I say; if you think you can do it better, do it yourself.
I do, however, have two issues. One specific to the article, and one more general to this thread and the previous one on Christmas Day.
My specific issue is with this phrase: “the aim of science to supplant true religion as the world’s new, dismal, cheerless credo”. With all due respect, Christopher, the problem we all face is more like “the aim of pseudo-science to supplant true science and so to force us all into a dismal, cheerless world.”
Personally, I do not see any conflict between science and religion. I prefer not to follow a religion; but that’s because I’m an individual, and I’ll do it my own way, dammit! Science does not prove the existence or non-existence of a god. (At least, if it has, I’m unaware of it.) And religion does not stop anyone appreciating science, or using its methods to advance human knowledge.
The more general issue I have is in regard to tolerance (or lack of it) on this thread. With 231 comments and counting, the letters “toler” appear only once. So, may I offer, to all here, Neil’s First Law of Religion: “If you let me have my religion (or lack of it), I’ll let you have yours.” There is a distinct lack of religious tolerance in some of the comments here. It would be better if WUWTers asked themselves who their friends really are.
Indeed, why should we deny even the green warnistas their religion? Let them give up computers, heating, mechanized transport and all the other good things energy brings us. Let them grow their own organic veggies, and starve when they fail. I have no problem with letting them behave according to their religion. Where I have a problem with greenies is them wanting to force me into following their religion. To paraphrase:
If you want to hug a tree,
Hug that tree. Just don’t bug me.

Indeed, I would have exactly the same problem if the adherents of any other religion tried to force me into it. Christianity included.
Last, a small apology. I myself was intolerant towards you, Christopher, on the earlier thread, all but ordering you to apologize to rgbatduke. My annoyance was not at your religious position, but at your shortening his moniker to “ratduke,” which I might call an argumentum ad verminem. In any case, as became subsequently clear, RGB is perfectly capable of defending himself.
Once again, thank you for the article. Thank you also for inspiring me to make, in contrast to my usual fare of limericks and other jocular brevities, a serious comment in the WUWT forum. And thanks to Anthony and mods for making the forum possible.
Cheers,
Neil

Alan Millar
January 7, 2013 1:10 pm

Bruckner8 says:
January 7, 2013 at 12:21 pm
“How come you don’t believe? More correct would be: Why do you believe NOT fairies? An agnostic would say “I don’t know. I’ve never observed fairies. It doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and I have no current means to verify their existence.” (That’s for the peeps who say “Oh yea? Well you’ve never seen Moscow either, so how do you know it exists?”)
This is my entire point on Atheism. The decision of “non-belief” is itself a belief (“I don’t believe.” takes reason, proof). I bet most Atheists are actually Agnostics, but they’ve hitched their wagon so thoroughly to Atheism that they can’t back out now.
Does [any entity] [meet this condition]? Possible answers: Yes, No, I don’t know. Yes and No require proof. (We can talk about the fallacy of proving non-existence too…which will make my point even stronger, since a proof can’t be supplied, yet the “No” people still believe “No.”)”
Ahh the usual attempt to tie up simple issues and questions in metaphysical bs.
You might be an alien who has come to Earth and hijacked the body, memories and personality of the person you were for all I know. I know of no test or procedure that could disprove this
But if you told me this as a fact I wouldn’t believe you because this wouldn’t be a 50/50 issue to me. I wouldn’t believe you based on all the knowledge and experiences I have acquired to date and all my reactions and behaviours to you would be based on this belief.
Presumably if I told you the same thing about myself, you would declare yourself agnostic about the matter and adjust your behaviour to me based on the possibility of my being an alien.
I think the term ‘more fool you then’ might be appropriate.
Alan

January 7, 2013 1:16 pm

Volker Doormann says:
January 7, 2013 at 11:17 am

John Whitman says:
January 6, 2013 at 3:15 pm
Christopher Monckton, In an earlier comment to you on this thread I addressed almost total agreement on the secular part of your post. Your secular focused discourse was eloquent. The religious (supernatural) focused part of your post lacks internally consistent logic and it misidentifies the metaphysical/epistemological status of supernaturalism. However, your most self-refuting aspect of your religious statement is that it is merely irrelevant to professional and objective scientific pursuit and achievement, per se.

Sorry, but that is not a valid argument, because you have not given any (scientific) reason for your statement. If one speaks on logic he knows that logic cannot be more than the prepositions say. If one speaks about absolute truth, what is the reference for it? From where do know that something is absolutely true (or false)? Can you give a proof what is supernatural? Can you show truth?
Basic logic tells that there is one nature; two natures cannot exist because they must contradict each other. Things cannot be true and false at the same time und not natural and supernatural at the same time. It is a fallacy.
Science is science because of the acknowledgement to that what is to be recognised as true.
V.

– – – – – – – –
Volker Doormann,
Thank you for your comment.
I agree substantially with the fundamentals of your comment.
Yes, I now think that term ‘secular’ was a poor word choice. Also, by religion’s focus on supernatural / superstitious beings or realms, I am not endorsing their view that they exist. If my statement implies that I maintain there are two worlds, let me say now that I did not mean to endorse two worlds; I am not a Platonist nor Kantian nor Hegelian who did maintain a dual reality metaphysics and epistemology. By my statements I was contrasting the natural world focused on by science to what is the focus/target of religion’s supernaturalism / superstitionism.
I have expanded my thoughts farther in two recent posts. Maybe they will address any other points in your comment.

John Whitman says on January 7, 2013 at 11:44 am to Christopher Monckton
John Whitman says on January 7, 2013 at 11:44 am to Bruckner8

John

E.M.Smith
Editor
January 7, 2013 1:34 pm

:
There’s another small problem… The isotopes et. al. from junk in space indicate that the supernova from which the Earth was formed is the same age as the known age of the earth / planets… That means that there was exactly zero “travel time” between SuperNova and condensation…
O.Manuel has postulated that Sol was the S.N. and that the current sun theories are wrong. That it has a core (of either iron or neutrons, I’ve forgotten which) and it is decay of the neutrons that provides the power.
Near as I can tell, his theory has a better fit to the facts than the S.N.s “out there” and stuff traveled to get here.
Only other alternative I can see would be the S.N. event was “very near here” and we haven’t found what was the left over core. As there are no neutron stars “here”, that’s a bit of a problem. (We have a lot of brown dwarfs).
Essentially, all the “stuff” that is us had to either have zero travel time from a S.N. remnant hidden ‘near’ here, or the “thing” that blew up has to be far away because it moved. Yet by definition, an exploding S.N. has relatively symmetrical inward pressure on the remnant core. (We don’t see neutron stars shooting out of S.N. dregs…) So how does “our stuff” get blown outward at ever expanding radius, yet all collect in one spot to condense? And how does it do that in zero time? While leaving no S.N. core behind?
So something doesn’t add up. (Could be I’ve got some part wrong. Could be the standard models are wrong. Could be isotopic dating of space rubble is wrong. Could be…)

E.M.Smith
Editor
January 7, 2013 2:33 pm

OK, I’ve waded through all the rest of the comments.
I have to second the notion that a lot of folks have confounded “atheist” with “agnostic”. An “A”-Theist is making the ‘positive assertion that there is not and can not be a God’. That takes a belief and some evidence. An “A”-Gnostic is simply saying “I do not know” (which is functionally indistinguishable from “I see no evidence”). The folks asserting that “atheism” naturally arises from the lack of a belief in a God are simply mixing up their definitions. “Lack of belief” is “I do not know”. While “There is no God” is not the lack of belief, but the assertion of a strong negation of the belief.
Just change the terms to “hot” and “cold”. It is hot. There is no hot. I don’t know how hot it is. The first says there is hot. The second says there is a lack of heat, which is cold. The last one says “I have no statement of belief about the hotness and it could be cold, or warm, or whatever.”
So all your arguments about your lack of belief in, and lack of evidence for, a God are just fine. Except they make you an Agnostic, not an Atheist. Once you state “There is not a god”, your argument from “I do not believe” must change to “I assert, so here is my evidence” and you are trying to prove a negative…. Good luck with that… I’d also point out this all gets even messier when you add “probability strengths” to assertions and evidence. ( I tend to keep all things ‘weighted’ and not absolutes, so tend to say “It is unlikely there is a God” or “It is more likely that there is a god than a God”. (The “space aliens misunderstood” variation. 😉
At any rate, other than observing the poor use of proper definitions, I’m not interested in ‘engaging’ on the “does so” vs “does not”… shall we call it ‘debate’…
As at various points in my life I’ve been a ‘born again Baptist’, a strong Atheist, and a simpering Agnostic; I’m comfortable with all sides of the argument… So I’m more “like the French”… I don’t care what you believe as long as you say it properly 😉
Sidebar on “Lord”:
FWIW, I think the attacks on his Lordships Lord status falls into the same bucket. The “Is Not” group looks at active participation in the House of Lords and says “is not”, while the “Is” side looks at hereditary title and says “Has it, so ‘is’ it.” They shall never agree for they argue from different premises. My Grandfather had a smithy and worked iron for other farmers with an anvil and forge. He was a Smith. My Dad taught me how to work iron. Does that mean I am, or am not, a Smith? (Well, I’m a bit of a pyromaniac who likes banging on metal with a hammer, and I’ve made several metal pieces that way including a screwdriver and nails and specialized wrenches and tempered a knife blade… but not for hire. Yet my name is, by heredity, Smith, as is my history and … )
So until you get your basic words in alignment, you will have orthogonal conclusions. Both may well be ‘correct’, but about different things…
On climate, this same problem shows up when we have “The GLOBE is warming” vs “This subset of stations warms and these others do not.”. AGW depends on defining warming via a particular manipulation of the temperature records (TOBS, SHAP, “correction” for the MMTS conversion, homogenizing; in total about the same as the “Global Warming” and if removed, the ‘warming’ exits…) while inspection of long lived individual stations says “not warming”. Depending on what definition is accepted, a different answer.
(Since temperature is an intensive property and can not be ‘averaged’ and have any meaning, I’m in the ‘long lived stations’ camp as they take no averaging… one can just look at min and max trends over time. http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/07/01/intrinsic-extrinsic-intensive-extensive/ )
I also note that the point about ‘tropopause’ I made above falls into this same point. Defining it as a ‘pause’ when it has Cat 2 Hurricane Winds leads to the error of thinking only radiative transfer matters. But nobody wants to look at that when they can piss on each other over God vs Atheism… http://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/wind-speed-alt-1090.gif
Oh Well…

gnomish
January 7, 2013 3:01 pm

oh noes- alien abduction of the null hypothesis and spiritual probes…

phlogiston
January 7, 2013 3:02 pm

E.M.Smith says:
January 7, 2013 at 1:34 pm
:
There’s another small problem… The isotopes et. al. from junk in space indicate that the supernova from which the Earth was formed is the same age as the known age of the earth / planets… That means that there was exactly zero “travel time” between SuperNova and condensation…
The radiation field in the vicinity of a supernova is so intense and energetic that nearby matter – whether from the SN or elsewhere, might be subject to any number of nuclear reactions and alterations to isotope ratio. Thus a SN could artificially imprint on all matter in the vicinity an apparent similar age in regard to certain nuclides. (Please – o please!! dont attract here our “friend from Barcelona” – Fawlty Towers analogy).

nc
January 7, 2013 3:11 pm

I think Lord Monckton must have been bored. When I saw religion injected into his other wise excellent post I just cringed. I just knew this thread would then be headed for the dustbin and I was not proven wrong. The good Lord Monckton must be laughing.

January 7, 2013 3:13 pm

Michael Palmer says:
January 6, 2013 at 11:51 am
All in all a nice essay, but it seems confused about the subject of “formal logic”. Modern formal logic, as developed by Gottlob Frege, Bertrand Russell, and others, does not contain a classification of fallacies or concern itself with questions of consensus, authority, and ignorance.
========================================================================
It would seem to me that Lord M is using classical formal logic; hence the terminology. Is that not so? Where does he state that he is using “Modern formal logic”?
Inquiring minds, and all that…

rgbatduke
January 7, 2013 3:26 pm

Keep Big Banging away, someone will get it right eventually. And just for further input, in what way quantitatively is the BB dfferent than, “And God said, let there be light. And there was light?”
Keep reading. What are the next couple of lines again?
Or, we could be picky and note that it took a wee bit of time for the electroweak intereaction to split into electric and weak, and then it took a long time (known as The Great Dark) for the universe to ignite the first star. For much of that time the Universe was literally opaque — photons had a short optical path and atoms had not yet formed.
One can always find some correspondence between poetry and reality, and I actually appreciate the poetry. But that doesn’t mean that we should take a poetic correspondence as evidence that th.e authors had secret knowledge, especially when the next line gives that the lie, separating night from day before there is even a single star, and making the planet before the sun, and making lights in the firmament — that would be the solid bowl of the sky arching over a flat solid Earth floating on an ocean — on day four.
So poetry yes. Not the best poetry, as creation myths go its not too bad. As a description of what really happened, not so much.
rgb

rgbatduke
January 7, 2013 3:34 pm

So all your arguments about your lack of belief in, and lack of evidence for, a God are just fine. Except they make you an Agnostic, not an Atheist.
Or: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
There are many shades of atheism all of which leave you without a belief in god, which is what the term really means. Agnostic atheism is one. Negative atheism is another, closely related. You are essentially claiming that all atheists are necessarily positive atheists (if you care) which is simply not true. Pushed to the wall, I rather think that most atheists are negative atheists (effectively agnostic atheists); as you might say, most of us recognize that lack of evidence is not the same as evidence of lack. However, I’m sure there are exceptions, and I can hardly speak for others or authoritatively as far as statistics are concerned. The list of (overlapping) types is fun, though.
rgb

phlogiston
January 7, 2013 3:55 pm

rgbatduke says:
January 7, 2013 at 11:33 am
Wrong. The Ten Commandments and other Western moral imperatives are entirely good for society. The decline of the West can be attributed in very large part to the decline in morality, and to situational ethics — the moral equivalent of Post Normal Science.
Fine. Lemme go find some really big stones, then, because my neighbors violate the Sabbath all the time — well, at least one of the days that might or might not be “the Sabbath” as there is some disagreement as to what the right day is. So I might have to kill ‘em on more than one day.
My kids are such toast, too. Time to bludgeon them to death with rocks.
Maybe I’ll just enslave my neighbors, come to think about it. Then I can beat them almost to death and stay within the Bible’s very generous rules there. And believe me, I could go on. Marriage by rape, anyone? Suppression of any pretence of religious freedom? This is “entirely good”?
As for the myth of the “decline of the West” — do we live on the same planet? Let’s see, the world has never in recorded history been: …

The world is an unpredictable place where strange things often happen. This insight lies behind Karl Poppers rule to build up knowledge deductively – from direct observation, not inductively, on serial asssumptions, which are dangerously prone to turning out wrong.
Lets take religion – its all very well to jowl-flap indignantly at all the naughty sex and violence in the bible (not to mention the koran), in a fit of atheistic puritanism if you like. You can build inductively from that the idea – as many do – that nasty Jew-deo-Christian religions are the source of all the worlds violence and injustice. But where does such inductiveness lead us? One would then assume that if truly atheistic states did emerge, they would become a utopia of gentleness, peace and justice and the defence of rights of women and men. But what happened when two large and powerful atheistic states did emerge at around the same time in the early part of the last century – Nazi Germany and Stalin’s USSR? Not exactly an outbreak of peace and love.
You cannot by inference trouser the cultural strengths of western Europe and North America as belonging to secularism since they were established – going back to the enlightemnent and renaissance – in a firmly Christian context. Sometimes it is better to evaluate something not by logically deconstructing it but by looking at its direct results. It was from the Christian world (building from some Jewish and Islamic foundations), not the Pantheistic Hindus or Buddists or animists or Mayans etc, from which the unique western civilisation arose. It was really made atheistic primarily by the psycological shock of the two world wars – we have in a sense inherited this from Hitler and Stalin. Das ist dran, tovarisch!
I agree with D Böehm that bringing up children with sound moral principles from religion is not a bad thing if not done violently. Those that reject religion find themselves having to reinvent it in some form to establish a sense of bad and good.

phlogiston
January 7, 2013 4:20 pm

For there is a very powerful theoretical reason why the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity interval 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74]. However, process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is far too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification function.
At high gain, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling. Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long- run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether inconsistent with a loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as modellers’ estimates imply.

Despite this thread having been hijacked by a religious argument by several – including myself – LC Monckton’s article does contain some very important scientific points. Foremost among these is the above quote concerning feedbacks. I have in a number of previous posts tried to say essentially the same thing in a different way. If (as is very probable) the earth climate system is characterised by nonlinear / nonequilibrium dissipative pattern dynamics, then strong positive feedbacks have a very predictable and testable outcome – they impose monotonic and high amplitude oscillation, wiping out complex emergent pattern. LC Monckton applies the very pertinent example of electronic feedback. Other classic examples of the same phenomenon include the platinum-catalysed oxidation of CO under the influence of different gas pressures.
The admission of nonlinear climate dynamics transforms the whole issue of feedbacks.

January 7, 2013 4:37 pm

rgbatduke:
Please desist.
In addition to disrupting the thread, you are embarrassing your self with your ill-informed and illogical rants about religion. They each contain errors (so many errors it would require a book to refute them all). For example, this in your recent post at January 7, 2013 at 3:26 pm.

So poetry yes. Not the best poetry, as creation myths go its not too bad. As a description of what really happened, not so much.

Clearly, you are not aware that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 each provides a different creation myth: one is from the Northern tribes and the other is from the Southern tribes. One of the two stories provides the creation myth of a hunter-gatherer people and the other of an agricultural people. Later, during exile in Babylon, the sect called the Scribes created the Torah by collating and writing the cultures of the peoples. The Scribes decided to include both of these creation myths because the two stories express different cultural truths. But neither myth is or was intended to be read as a physics text book because the myths differ on basic facts; e.g. one says there was rain from the beginning of the World and the other says there was no rain until generations later.
Stick to your physics text books because you understand them. And stop embarrassing yourself by displaying your ignorance of other matters as a method to destroy this thread.
Richard

anton
January 7, 2013 4:47 pm

No Mr. Monckton, I don’t need to read up on St. Francis, an overhyped example of a Christian supposedly kind to animals. He was a close friend of St. Dominic, the insane sadist who created the Papal Inquisition, and who tortured countless innocent humans in the name of God and countless innocent animals just for fun. Domingo was infamous among his peers for plucking birds alive at the dinner table. The Inquisition routinely burned animals alive as alleged witch familiars. Again, you have used illogic to defend logic.
You might want to investigate older conceptions of God put forth by other religions, starting with Hinduism, which Christianity plagiarized and garbeled (turning Chrishna into Christ), then, perhaps, Bon and Taoism, and then, perhaps, Zoroastrianism–which Judaism and Christianity both plagiarized. All of these religions had far loftier notions of God than the spiteful savage portrayed in the Old and New Testaments. But, none of this has anything to with the logical falsehoods of AGW.

gnomish
January 7, 2013 5:31 pm

lol! Moebius vs Ouroboros!
gazing at one’s navel from the inside is just weird. gazing at each other’s the same way – you could get money for that in tijuana!
take a break and get some air?

D.J. Hawkins
January 7, 2013 6:04 pm

E.M.Smith says:
January 7, 2013 at 2:33 pm
OK, I’ve waded through all the rest of the comments.
snip – – – – – –

I am sooo glad I read to the end, else I’d likely said the same thing in twice as many words, and not half so well!
I would add that rgb’s nattering about N-1 vs N is pointless. “A-theism” is about active disbelief in any god, not all but one. It would be as ridiculous to say the converse, that being a “Theist”, I must therefore believe in all gods! rgb’s Science Fu is orders of magnitude greater than his Theology Fu, his antecedants not withstanding. And in the end, I suspect he’s perfectly content with that.

JazzyT
January 7, 2013 6:10 pm

John West says:
January 6, 2013 at 11:49 pm

Wouldn’t it be funny if someone discovered the ancient word for God is what we call Gravity.

“Ya Weigh”
As in, “Ya Weigh” two hundred pounds, i.e., there is a force acting on you proportional to your mass…
Now can somebody equate the ancient Hebrew term for “breath of life” with “Higgs Boson?”
On topic: One interesting thing about teaching logical fallicies is to get the students to know when to stop. A simple definition of a fallacy can sometimes be used to identify an argument as fallacious even if it is not. From the origiinal post,

Believers say: “Only if we include a strong warming effect from CO2 can we explain the past 60 years’ warming. We know of no other reason.” This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, the fundamental fallacy of argument from ignorance.

Now one explanation of the appeal to ignorance, from the encyclopedic http://www.fallacyfiles.org is:
“An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.”
In the quoted statement, the Believers say that there is no alternate explanation for recent warming, and so CO2 must be the culprit. Any valid alternate explanation would constitute evidence against the CO2 theory, so this takes the form of appeal to (or argument from) ignorance.
But statements like that have to be taken in context. What other knowledge might be available?
Applied too rigorously, the Appeal to Ignorance would entirely refute the Process of Elimination. If I own three shirts, a blue one, a white one, and a red one, and I know that I have one clean one left in my closet, then, if I observe the blue and white shirts lying dirty in my laundry basket, then I know that the red shirt is clean. It would be foolish for anyone to accuse me of an appeal to ignorance simply because I failed to find evidence of the red shirt being dirty. This is a simple example of further knowledge coming into play, there is more discussion of three ways that this fallacy may be avoided at http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html in the section labeled “Exposure.” (It may be valid to presume that a claim is false until proven true, as with criminal charges. We may have knowledge beyond the claim itself, or we might legitimately know that if something happened, we would have heard about it, and so not hearing about it actually can lead to a conclusion.)
What do the Believers in the above quote actually know? Well, it depends. Such statements often come from concerned lay people who don’t have much scientific training. But they’re not really giving their own logic anyway, so it doesn’t matter whether or not they know enough to reason this way. When scientists make such statements, the statements may or may not be fallacious depending on what else the scientist knows, and on how strongly worded the conclusions are. In general, climate scientitsts have a good idea of what factors could possibly lead to warming; it is a matter of ongoing debate whether they have convincingly excluded factors such as solar variation, orbitial precession, volcanos, etc. There is also the question of whether there is, or plausibly could be, some influence completly unknown to the scientists, that they discounted. Both of these play into the distinction between Appeal to Ignorance and legitimate reasoning. Finally, how strongly worded was the conclusion? Is the conclusion “definite,” “irrefutable,” or the like? Or is it “strongly supported,” “very unlikely to be wrong,” etc. The latter leave open at least the possibility of surprise, and since this is always present, no matter how remote, these are the statements we are more likely to hear from scientists.
Testing a number of hypotheses and choosing the only one that fits the data is a perfectly valid scientific procedure. So is methodically ruling out other potential hypotheses. Jumping unjustifiably to a conclusion that no other hypotheses are possible, is fallacious.

markx
January 7, 2013 6:12 pm

Bruckner8 says: January 7, 2013 at 12:21 pm
“….An agnostic would say “I don’t know. I’ve never observed fairies. It doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and I have no current means to verify their existence.” (That’s for the peeps who say “Oh yea? Well you’ve never seen Moscow either, so how do you know it exists?”)
This is my entire point on Atheism. The decision of “non-belief” is itself a belief (“I don’t believe.” takes reason, proof). I bet most Atheists are actually Agnostics…..”

E.M.Smith says: January 7, 2013 at 2:33 pm
I have to second the notion that a lot of folks have confounded “atheist” with “agnostic”. An “A”-Theist is making the ‘positive assertion that there is not and can not be a God’.
That takes a belief and some evidence.
An “A”-Gnostic is simply saying “I do not know” (which is functionally indistinguishable from “I see no evidence”). The folks asserting that “atheism” naturally arises from the lack of a belief in a God are simply mixing up their definitions. “Lack of belief” is “I do not know”. While “There is no God” is not the lack of belief, but the assertion of a strong negation of the belief.

Surely, given all that we do know to this point in time, the fact that we have no physical mechanism or even theory for the makeup, structure, form, purpose, or origin of a god, is in itself a sufficient ‘negative proof’.
Surely, given that we know that over millennia people have created in their own minds many similar “god like” constructs to explain the inexplicable, there IS some explanation for how these illusions eventuate.
Stating that ‘most atheists are really agnostics’ because they have not found “proof” of the absence of a god smacks of logical and scientific pedantry.

January 7, 2013 6:56 pm

It’s a bad idea for intelligent people to discuss religion and politics, but it’s funny. religion and politics exist for a reason, the theological concepts of how and why every person should care for each other is always overshadowed by philosophical conceptual arguments for why we should be ruthless to each other in a so-called “dog eat dog world”. It’s what ruined Starwars.
Christopher Monckton is unique, I like him, but I have to constantly ask my self if I’m a bad judge of character, If I judge someone on their political or religious views? If I do, then am I a bad judge of character? If a person has lived an honest and productive life for themselves and has had a positive influence on people around them, is that positive lesson a concept that should be acknowledged and then argued about for all time as a struggle between good and evil?. that ruined Starwars too.
There is a third option, hear me out!!! If I’m a good judge of character and there is no diversity from one character to the next, they all have the same political opinions and religious views, wouldn’t that make me a bad judge of character, scientifically speaking?

Hoser
January 7, 2013 7:25 pm

Our friend Lord Monckton of Brenchley
Has battled for science intensely.
His logic and yarns
cause foes to drop arms,
and run from the field rather Frenchly.

RACookPE1978
Editor
January 7, 2013 8:03 pm

richardscourtney says:
January 7, 2013 at 4:37 pm
also:
RGBatDuke
Jazzy T
Michael Moon says:
January 7, 2013 at 12:21 pm

Professor Brown,
In truth I was merely stirring the pot. Asimov made the point decades ago, that what thermodynamics dictates as the end condition of the universe, Genesis accurately describes, although wrong end around as you say, as the beginning. I don’t take anything in the Bible literally except the excellent advice of Jesus.
Keep Big Banging away, someone will get it right eventually. And just for further input, in what way quantitatively is the BB dfferent than, “And God said, let there be light. And there was light?”

I would challenge you there. Actually both of you. Though with tongue not-to-firmly in cheek. 8<)
See, we're told that First, everything was created. No form, no substance, no light, no shapes, no dimensions. Before creation/big bang there was nothing.
RGB: No word written here on where God was/is/will be before creation, and I don’t know. (Cue Star Trek: “By God Jim, I’m an engineer, not a philosopher!”) Anyway, first everything was created, then there was a mighty wind over a dark emptiness. (Good. Big Bang Theory/Modern Science finally got around to saying the same thing.)
THEN – after the “create everything from nothing but with no form in the dark abyss with a mighty wind” part got done – only THEN was there light.
(Good. Big Bang Theory/Today’s Science finally got around to saying the same thing. See, particle physics has shown light (photons) will condense out from energy as the universe cools before anything else does.)
Then (after the “let there be light” part that somehow people think comes first) only THEN did we get the light separated from the darkness …
(Good. Big Bang Theory/Today’s Science finally got around to saying the same thing. See, to separate the light from the darkness, you have to have matter to create the shadows. And, particle physics again shows us that matter condenses out of the energy from the Big Bang after the light is formed.)
Then (after the “let there be matter” part that somehow people keep forgetting) only THEN did we get a dome (big circular domed-shaped overhead vault in terms of the then-modern architecture used in some translations) to separate the waters above (the dome) from the waters below (the dome) …
(Good. Big Bang Theory/Today’s Science finally got around to saying the same thing. See if you allow that “waters” are fluid and act like a plasma, like a dust cloud, and like interstellar gases, then obviously the writer is describing the solar system (rest of the universe) “above” or outside the atmosphere – the visible dome over the writer’s head every day.)
The “waters below the dome”? Hey, that’s a pretty good description of the dust and gas and air and “water” water that gathered below the atmosphere into the world we now know. Now, it apparently gathered by gravity (the Y’all Weigh” of a previous writer) and not by a Intelligent Designer, but ….
OK, so now we have a world and atmosphere. All the water (now here, obviously we don’t need the “technical excuse” of a gas-plasma-dust cloud – this “water” is wet water that everybody recognizes today) got gathered into one basin, and all the land got gathered into one continent.
(Good. Big Bang Theory/Today’s Science finally got around to saying the same thing. Odd that the original storytellers would contradict themselves so firmly and blatantly here, since EVERYBODY at that time KNEW that there were many seas and oceans running around many different lands. But, these writers knew better, and wrote about what actually turns out to be a good description of plate tectonics and continental drift from a single continent even though they “could see” it wasn’t “true”.)
Plants were designed (er, created by random mutations of 10^28 individual chemicals that would not work if they were put together in any other sequence every time) next.
(Yeppers. Got one of those fossils on my desk right now. And the world’s first ecological crisis as these early plants transformed the cloudy atmosphere into today’s visibly clear oxygen and nitrogen mix. (With a little Argon.) Good thing science finally caught up with the reference book.)
Well, just after the atmosphere cleared up, the sun, stars and moon were revealed in the sky. (Remember now, you can’t be picky about this event by claiming that this sequence shows that the moon or sun was “created too late” – everything that was suddenly now visible was already created long before they became visible in the sky for navigation and calenders and generally “keeping order” The plants had to come first ….. And, it is well to remember that astronomy – any science at all for that matter – can hardly occur in a cloudy opaque fatal atmosphere like Venus, Jupiter or Saturn.)
Life began in the water, then the birds (dinosaurs actually) came on land.
(Good. Big Bang Theory/Today’s Science finally got around to saying the same thing. It’s about time science caught up with realty.)
Little bit after the dinosaurs, mammals came on the scene, then the snakes. (Yes, snakes as we know them today are a fairly recent group of species. No mention of insects though – They are sort of “mushed” into the amphibians and other critters that started in the sea.)
People came last.
Now, if the original writers were more northern or central European in background, I imagine they’d throw in the occasional troll (Neanderthal) or dragon (dinosaur skull and fossil bones) into the story. But, they didn’t.

Goldie
January 7, 2013 9:19 pm

When I look up Wattswiththat I expect to see some reasoned science logic and philosophy in regards to the climate debate. Whilst I accept that the latter can (and should) stray into questions of religion on occassions, I cannot believe that this thread has been allowed to degrade into such a sorry state.
If I wanted to get into questions of religion, I would go elsewhere.
Folks this makes us a laughing stock – please stop!
There is hardly any chance of converting someone to your personal belief system through such a blog and it just makes us look foolish.

January 7, 2013 10:17 pm

@Goldie
I can’t believe that you believe in any statistic.

tokyoboy
January 7, 2013 10:21 pm

Goldie says: (January 7, 2013 at 9:19 pm)…………
I second that. It’s been too heavy for someone who is non-Christian, non-Muslim, ….

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