Bethlehem and the rat-hole problem

rat, mousetrap and cheese

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

In the closing minutes of the final plenary of the U.N.’s Doha climate summit, when no one else had anything further to add, I spent a few seconds telling the delegates something that the bad scientists and the malicious media have done their level best to conceal. There has been no global warming for 16 years.

In the real world, this surely welcome news would have been greeted with cheers of relief and delight. Since the beginning of 1997, despite the wailing and gnashing of dentures among the classe politique, despite the regulations, the taxations, the carbon trades, the windmills, the interminable, earnestly flatulent U.N. conferences, the CO2 concentration that they had declared to be Public Enemy No. 1 has not stabilized. It has grown by one-twelfth.

Yet this startling growth has not produced so much as a twentieth of a Celsius degree of global warming. Any warming below the measurement uncertainty of 0.05 Cº in the global-temperature datasets is statistically indistinguishable from zero.

The much-vaunted “consensus” of the much-touted “ensembles” of the much-heralded “models” has been proven wrong. The much-feted “modelers” had written in 2008 that their much-cited “simulations” ruled out, to 95% confidence, intervals of 15 years or more without global warming. To them, 16 years without warming were as near impossible as makes no difference.

Yet those impossible years happened. However, you would never have known that surely not uninteresting piece of good news from reading the newspapers or watching ABC, BBC, CBC, NBC, et hoc genus omne. The media are not in the business of giving the facts or telling the truth any more.

Precisely because journalists no longer bother to provide the inconvenient truth to their audiences, and because they are no longer willing even to provide the people with the straightforward facts without which democracy itself cannot function, the depressingly ill-informed and scientifically-illiterate delegates in Doha can be forgiven for not having known that global warming stopped a long while back.

That is why they should have been excited and delighted when they heard the news – nearly all of them for the very first time.

But this was the alternative reality that is the corrupt, self-serving U.N. Howls, hoots and hollers of dismay and fury greeted my short, polite announcement. This absurdly inappropriate reaction raises a fascinating question.

How are we to dig a rat-hole wide enough to allow the useful idiots and true-believers to escape as each passing year makes it more and more obvious that their fatuous credo has all the plausibility of the now somewhat discredited notion that the world was to be snuffed out at this year’s winter solstice?

Every student of the arts of diplomacy in the civil-service and staff colleges of the U.K. hears much about the rat-hole problem. How does one let the other side off some hook on which they have imprudently impaled themselves, while minimizing their loss of face?

A cornered rat will fight savagely, even against overwhelming odds, because it has no alternative. Give the rat a way out and it will instinctively take it.

The first step in digging a diplomatic rat-hole is to show that one understands how one’s opponents came to make their mistake. One might make a point of agreeing with their premise – in the present instance, the long-proven fact that adding a greenhouse gas to an atmosphere such as ours can be expected, ceteris paribus, to cause some warming.

Then one tries to find justifications for their standpoint. There are five good reasons why the global warming that they – and we – might have expected has not occurred for 16 years: natural variability in general; the appreciable decline in solar activity since the Grand Maximum that peaked in 1960; the current 30-year cooling phase of the ocean oscillations, which began late in 2001 with the transition from the warming phase that had begun in 1976; the recent double-dip la Niña; and the frequency with which supra-decadal periods without warming have occurred in the instrumental record since 1850.

The next trick is to help them, sympathetically, to focus the blame for their error on as few of their number as possible. Here, the target is obvious. The models are to blame for the mess the true-believers are in.

We must help them to understand why the models got it so very wrong. This will not be easy, because nearly all of our opponents have no science or math at all.

We can start our deconstruction of the models by pointing out that – given the five good reasons why global warming might not occur for 15 years or more at a time – the modelers’ ruling out periods of 15 years or more without warming shows they have given insufficient weight to the influence of natural variability. We can poke gentle fun at their description of CO2 as “ the tuning-knob of the climate”, and help them to put things into perspective by reminding them that Man has so far altered only 1/10,000 of the atmosphere, and may alter 1/3000 of it by 2100.

We cannot altogether avoid the math. But we can put it all in plain English, and we can use logic, which is more accessible to the layman than climatological physics. Here goes.

The fundamental equation of climate sensitivity says temperature change is the product of a forcing and a climate-sensitivity parameter.

The modellers’ definition of forcing is illogical; their assumptions about the value of the climate-sensitivity parameter are not Popper-falsifiable; and their claims of reliability for their long-term predictions are empirically disproven and theoretically insupportable. Let us explain.

The IPCC defines a forcing as the net down-minus-up flux of radiation at the tropopause, holding surface temperature fixed. Yet forcings change that temperature. A proposition and its converse cannot simultaneously be true. That is the fundamental postulate of logic, and the models’ definition of forcing manifestly offends against it.

No surprise, then, that since 1995 the IPCC has had to cut its estimate of the CO2 forcing by 15%. The “consensus” disagrees with itself. Note in passing that the CO2 forcing function is logarithmic: each further molecule causes less warming than those before it. Diminishing returns apply.

We can remind our opponents that direct warming is little more than 1 Cº per doubling of CO2 concentration, well within natural variability. It is not a crisis. We can explain that the modelers have imaginatively introduced amplifying or “positive” temperature feedbacks, which, they hope, will triple the direct warming from CO2.

Yet this dubious hypothesis, not being Popper-falsifiable, is not logic and, therefore, not science. If a hypothesis cannot be checked by any empirical or theoretical method, it is not – stricto sensu – a hypothesis at all. It is of no interest to science.

Not one of the imagined feedbacks is empirically measurable or theoretically determinable to a sufficient precision by any method. As an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report, I have described its strongly net-positive feedback interval as guesswork – and that, in logic and therefore in science, is exactly what it is.

There is a powerful theoretical reason for suspecting that the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The climatic closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity estimate of 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74], though you will find no mention of the crucial concept of loop gain either in the IPCC’s documents or – as far as I can discover – in any of the few papers that discuss the mathematics of temperature feedbacks in the climate object.

Process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification equation. At a gain as high as is implicit in the models’ climate-sensitivity estimates, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling.

Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long-run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether too small to be consistent with a feedback loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as official estimates imply, for homeostatic conditions prevail.

The atmosphere’s lower bound, the ocean, is a vast heat-sink 1100 times denser than the air. Since 3000 bathythermographs were deployed in 2006 no significant ocean warming has been found.

The upper bound of the atmosphere is outer space, to which any excess heat radiates harmlessly away.

Homeostasis, then, is what we should expect, and it is what we get. Accordingly, the climatic loop gain – far from being as impossibly high as the IPCC’s central estimate of 0.62 – cannot much exceed zero, so the warming at CO2 doubling will scarcely exceed 1 Cº.

It is also worth explaining to our opponents the fundamental reason why models cannot do what the modelers claim for them. The overriding difficulty in attempting to model the climate is that it behaves as a chaotic object. We can never know the values of its millions of defining parameters at any chosen moment to a sufficient precision to permit reliable projection of the bifurcations, or Sandy-like departures from an apparently steady state, that are inherent in all objects that behave chaotically. Therefore, reliable, very-long-term prediction of future climate states is known a priori to be unavailable by any method.

The modelers have tried to overcome this constraint by saying that the models are all we have, so we must make the best of them. But it is self-evidently illogical to use models when reliable, very-long-term weather forecasting is not available by any method.

This fundamental limitation on the reliability of long-term predictions by the models – known as the Lorenz constraint, after the father of computerized or “numerical” weather forecasting, whose 1963 paper Deterministic Non-Periodic Flow founded chaos theory by examining the behavior of a five-variable mini-model of the climate constructed as a heuristic – tells us something more, and very important, about the climate.

Bifurcations (or, in our opponents’ intellectual baby-talk, “tipping-points”) in the evolution of the climate object over time are not a whit more likely to occur in a rapidly-warming climate than in a climate which – like our own – is not warming at all.

Sandy and Bopha, and the hot summer in the U.S., could not have been caused by global warming, for the blindingly obvious reason that for 16 years there has not been any.

However, there are many variables in the climate object other than CO2 concentration and surface temperature. Even the tiniest perturbation in any one of these millions of parameters is enough, in an object that behaves chaotically, to induce a bifurcation.

Nothing in the mathematics of chaos leads one to conclude that “tipping-points” are any more likely to occur in response to a large change in the value of one of the parameters (such as surface temperature) that describe an object than in response to an infinitesimal change.

The clincher, in most diplomatic discussions, is money. Once we have led our opponents to understand that there is simply no reason to place any credence whatsoever in the exaggerations that are now painfully self-evident in the models, we can turn their attention to climate economics.

Pretend, ad argumentum, that the IPCC’s central estimate of 2.8 Cº warming by 2100 is true, and that Stern was right to say that the GDP cost of failing to prevent 3 Cº warming this century will be around 1.5% of GDP. Then, at the minimum 5% market inter-temporal discount rate, the cost of trying to abate this decade’s predicted warming of 0.15 Cº by topical, typical CO2-mitigation measures as cost-ineffective as, say, Australia’s carbon tax would be 48 times greater than the cost of later adaptation. At a zero discount rate, the cost of action will exceed the cost arising from inaction 36 times over.

How so? Australia emits just 1.2% of Man’s CO2, of which Ms. Gillard aims to cut 5% this decade. So Australia’s scheme, even if it worked, would cutting just 0.06% of global emissions by 2020. In turn, that would cut CO2 concentration from a predicted 410 μatm to 409.988 μatm. It is this infinitesimal change in CO2 concentration, characteristic of all measures intended – however piously – to mitigate future warming that is the chief reason why there is no economic case for spending any money at all on mitigation today.

The tiny drop in CO2 concentration would cut predicted temperature by 0.00006 Cº. This pathetic result would be achieved at a cost of $130 billion, which works out at $2 quadrillion/Cº. Abating the 0.15 Cº warming predicted for this decade would thus cost $317 trillion, or $45,000/head worldwide, or 59% of global GDP.

Mitigation measures inexpensive enough to be affordable will be ineffective: measures expensive enough to be effective will be unaffordable. Since the premium exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure. That is a precautionary principle worthy of the name.

When the child born in Bethlehem ~2012 years ago grew up, He told His audience the parable of the prodigal son, who had squandered his inheritance but was nevertheless welcomed by his father with a fatted calf when he returned and said he was sorry.

However vicious and cruel the true-believers in the global-warming fantasy have been to those few of us who have dared publicly to question their credo that has now been so thoroughly discredited by events, we should make sure that the rat-hole we dig for their escape from their lavish folly is as commodious as possible.

If all else fails, we can pray for them as He prayed looking down from the Cross on the world He had created.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

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rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 8:44 am

e) The story is a parable about dishonesty for glory, their “sin” was not about whether or not they gave to the church but we’re attempting to gain accolades dishonestly. If they would have said we’re selling this land and giving 1/1000th to the church then that’d been ok.
Ah, so the correct answer is a) (a deliberate lie, a.k.a. “a parable”) then? And of course we all agree that the proper punishment for any sort of dishonesty (whether or not it involves you own property, your own choices, hedging your bets, seeking “glory” that somehow isn’t mentioned in the text) is death. The punishment for everything in the Bible is death, often accompanied with a lot of suffering.
I would fondly commend to you:
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
as well. I would argue that this was the only point of the parable. Not about gaining accolades dishonestly, not about lying about how much they were giving (it’s their money, and they can lie if they want to). It was all about the fear.
BTW, I’m certain that you are familiar with Mark:
4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mark tells his apostles that he preaches in parables (rather than speaking plainly) so that they will not be converted or forgiven. Thanks, Jesus! Only those who get the secret decoder ring for parables are going to be forgiven, and God predestines this as a “gift” so why worry?
You, sir, are clearly an advocate of Hermeneutics and Exegesis, the process of constructive cognitive dissonance wherein it is impossible to find any evidence that the Bible is not correct in the Bible because if you find it, you just interpret it away! Apologetics R Us.
But why? When I write a physics textbook, do I deliberately hide the reasoning process in a mountain of first and second century metaphor? Do I sit around with my TAs and say to them “unto you it is given to understand the mystery of physics, but I’m going into the classroom and tell them that force is rather like a carrot just to confuse the hell out of them so that I can flunk everybody that isn’t predestined to pass by virtue of having learned F = ma in some other more reasonably taught class”?
Why do I need you, for example, to “correctly” interpret Acts 5 1-10 for me? It isn’t presented as a parable — it is presented in Acts of the Apostles, a history. Is the whole thing just a bunch of parables, so that none of it really happened? Where are the labels that let you identify the parables and differentiate them from the presumed matters of fact, like locks miraculously opening and Peter raising people from the dead and or the people being factually and actually filled with fear by a fearsome story told as fact — er, sorry, threatening lie, that is, a parable?
Could it be that you read a story, decide whether or not it portrays the actors in the light you would like them to have because you’ve already concluded that e.g. Luke and Peter are honest and godly apostles and you already have a pretty good idea of what is good and what is bad, and if it portrays Luke and/or Peter and/or God as being clearly bad, you make up anything you like to justify your continuing belief by rejecting this as negative evidence? Welcome to the world of Cognitive Dissonance. And thus it always ends. One cannot argue with a Christian, because they have an infinite well of Cognitive Dissonance with which to defend their beliefs; nothing is capable of falsifying them or even counting as evidence against them!
Matthew and Luke disagree concerning the birthday of Jesus by 15 years and the wrong Herod? Just the sort of variation of in the story one expects from different witnesses, no problem. I claim that I witnessed the murder on Tuesday, you claim that you witnessed the same murder on two weeks earlier on a Sunday, this makes us the jury more certain that there was an actual murder because the supposed eyewitnesses disagree. Wow. If they actually agreed about something like this, that would be very suspicious.
I actually agree quite a bit with Bart Ehrman, but unlike him I realize we have the advantage of science to help us determine the proper way to read any particular part of the Bible and determine what are insertions, parables, and opinions. For example whenever a story ends with “and that’s why we have XYZ” its probably a myth, whether it’s in the Bible or not. Also, one should look out for gnostic phrasing in the Gospels, especially John.
Again, the “science” you take advantage of explains the similarity between the synoptics as Matthew rewriting Mark to portray Jesus as a good Jew because Matthew was a good Jew, where Mark was a good Greek who didn’t even get gross features of the geography of Palestine correct and certainly never met Jesus, and Luke rewriting Mark yet again and completely changing the character of Jesus along the way, and unknown second century apologetics rewriting Mark itself to add the bit at the end about the resurrection as the original (sorry, “the oldest copies” since who knows how the original ended) ended with the empty tomb, the last 16 verses of Mark were missing.
Now if three non-eyewitnesses A, B and C all tell the same story because of collusion, because B and C basically copied but embellished A, does that reduce our belief that the witnesses are reliable? Are we getting three witnesses or one? Are we getting the actual words of that witness, or the heavily edited words given to the jury by the DA, who has a strong interest in the case being decided a certain way?
John, of course, is the odd one out, but John disagrees with all three synoptics from top to bottom, a fact that never seems to bother anyone. Different history, different time, different Jesus, different dates, different conclusions, different miracles. Almost as if they are describing a different person, or a second century mixture of several people. What day of the week was Jesus crucified on? You won’t learn the answer from the Bible. But you can make up any answer that is convenient to you, and you can find something to support nearly any assertion — God loves slavery, God hates slavery. Take your pick. Jesus promised to return in the lifetime of his followers to usher in the kingdom of heaven — Jesus said he’d come back whenever, don’t wait up for me, like a thief in the night (and with a lot of teeth-gnashing and wailing, just you watch). It can’t be falsified, it is slipperier than the Mayan Apocalypse.
At least the Mayans had the good grace to give us a specific date so we could just wait until that date (last week) and when it passed go “Wow, looks like the Mayan Apocalypse was a false proposition!” and move on. The authors of the Bible, on the other hand, were kind enough to hedge their bets to the point where its apocalypse cannot ever be falsified — if it hasn’t already been falsified by at least nineteen centuries:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/end.html
Of course this is all good for nothing but a belly laugh to you, because if the Bible prophecies A, B and C (which are not the same thing) and A and B are proven false by events, there is always C! And C is — fortunately — written in a way that cannot ever be disproven. The Sun could be burning out and the distant descendants of Christianity will still be arguing that this, at last, is the End Times foretold by at least those books in the Bible written when it was already pretty clear that Jesus wasn’t coming back anytime soon, in spite of how he was quoted in the actual Gospels.
And in a few billion years if not sooner and from other events, I’d even agree!
rgb

rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 8:46 am

Sorry, I meant “Jesus told his apostles in Mark”.

rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 8:52 am

Wow!!! another WUWT-er whose omniscience extends to mind reading. You got me dead to right there Gail. My entire evil purpose is to obliterate western civilization. Hee-hee-hee he says raising his little pinkey to the side of his grinning lips.
But (given that the Mayans were wrong) does it involve sharks with frickin’ laser beams? I gotta know…

December 27, 2012 8:54 am

rgb said:
“The more I look, the more I’m convinced that it is a damn bloody hard problem and that ANYONE claiming to have some sort of knowledge of where the climate is going based on any of the prevailing species of applied numerology is likely to be mistaken in their knowledge even if they choose the right direction by chance.”
Rightly so, as it requires applied astronomy. The technique maps short term solar changes that drives temperature and teleconnection changes at near daily scales. At this scale, we get not only highly accurate, but also deterministic weather forecasts at a great distance ahead, and a far more meaningful understanding of climatic impacts, as from knowing in which months the deviations will occur, we can gauge the hydrological impacts too.

Gail Combs
December 27, 2012 8:59 am

rgbatduke says:
December 27, 2012 at 6:34 am
….Very good point indeed. A lot of this metaphor can actually be made quantitative, I think, withing the context of a generalized Langevin (or master) equation approach to the dynamical equilibrium. I’ll have to think about it some more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh what a lovely ‘sound’ that is.
An excellent scientific paper in the making I hope.

Gail Combs
December 27, 2012 9:02 am

Monckton of Brenchley says:
December 27, 2012 at 7:46 am
I am delighted to make Professor Brown’s acquaintance, and I very much hope that he and others here who lurk behind pseudonyms …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dr. Brown originally used his full name. It is only lately he has shortened it. That is why us WUWT addicts know who he is at a glance.

lgl
December 27, 2012 9:05 am

Monckton
“their belief in CACA is no more Popper-falsifiable than my belief in Christianity”
What? Stronger greenhouse effect would decrease the outgoing LW at TOA so you just go and measure the OLR, and hey, it’s been done since 1985 and oops! it failed the test. Increased instead of decreased. http://virakkraft.com/OLR.png
OLR follows surface temperature, i.e. it is not ghg-driven.

December 27, 2012 9:06 am

rgbatduke:
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Earlier in this thread, I pointed out that there is an exception to the rule that there is a multiplicity of priors. It turns out that this exception supports a complete solution to the problem of induction. This was shown by Ronald Christensen and colleagues of his, including me, circa 1975. Christensen calls the solution that he found “entropy minimax.”
The exception occurs in an experiment that is a sequence of Bernoulli trials. In a single trial of an experiment, it is a fact that the relative frequency with which a specified outcome will be observed will be 0 or 1. In two trials, the relative frequency will be 0 or 1/2 or 1. In N trials, the relative frequency will be 0 or 1/N or 2/N or…1. Note that the experiment partitions the interval between 0 and 1 into subintervals and that each such subinterval is of length 1/N. Each relative frequency possibility is a way in which the relative frequency can occur.
Now, let N increase without limit. The relative frequency becomes known as the “limiting relative frequency.”
Suppose that we have not conducted the experiment but wish to infer the limiting relative frequency. We can realize our wish through invocation of the principle of entropy maximization. In accordance with this principle, we maximize the entropy of the N+1 ways in which the relative frequency can occur. Maximization of the entropy assigns equal numerical values to the probabilities of the various ways in which the outcome can occurred.
Associated with each probability value is a probability density value that is the probability value divided by 1/N. Note that the probability density is uniform. We have constructed a uniform probability density function and it is unique.In the construction of a posterior PDF, this PDF may be placed in the role which is called an “uninformative prior” without violation of the law of non-contradiction in view of the uniqueness.
Climatologists use Bayesian parameter estimation with uninformative prior PDFs in extracting posterior PDFs over the equilibrium climate sensitivity (TECS) from global temperature time series. AR4 explains that a uniform prior PDF is often used but this choice is arbitrary, for uninformative prior PDFs are of infinite number. Each uninformative prior PDF over TECS generates a different posterior PDF over TECS with consequential violation of the law of non-contradiction.

Gail Combs
December 27, 2012 9:18 am

DirkH says:
December 27, 2012 at 8:31 am
….Why don’t you warmists just occupy some wasteland and demonstrate to us how easy it is to build up a civilisation using the solar panels and wind turbines you can build using no raw materials nor fossil fuels. We’ll follow your glorious example as soon as you have managed to maintain a bureaucratic class this way that devours half your output.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Slight correction it is more like ~ 70 to 80% of our output. Don’t forget the 151 taxes on a simple loaf of bread that makes up more than half it’s cost. (And that was in the 1980’s) link
If citizens had to fork over the entire amount on April 15th there would be open rebellion on April 16th.
My rough calculation is about 25% of those of working age are supporting everyone else if you include the salaries for bureaucrats, government linked jobs, unemployed…. It is darn frightening and Obama is Hades Bent on making it MUCH MUCH worse.

Werner Brozek
December 27, 2012 9:19 am

Some people may be interested in Hugh Ross’ site at
http://www.reasons.org/about/our-creation-model-approach
Their belief:
“We believe God’s two revelations (Scripture and nature) will agree when properly interpreted. When apparent contradictions arise, we reexamine the data—both biblical and scientific—recognizing that our understanding is incomplete. Sometimes the scientific data seems an unclear or awkward fit with the biblical data. But we see such instances as an opportunity to study both of God’s revelations more deeply.”
About Hugh Ross:
“With the help of a provincial scholarship and a National Research Council (NRC) of Canada fellowship, he completed his undergraduate degree in physics (University of British Columbia) and graduate degrees in astronomy (University of Toronto). The NRC also sent him to the United States for postdoctoral studies. At Caltech he researched quasi-stellar objects, or “quasars,” some of the most distant and ancient objects in the universe.
Not all of Hugh’s discoveries involved astrophysics. Prompted by curiosity, he studied the world’s religions and “holy books” and found only one book that proved scientifically and historically accurate: the Bible. Hugh started at religious “ground zero” and through scientific and historical reality-testing became convinced that the Bible is truly the Word of God! When he went on to describe for others his journey to faith in Jesus Christ, he was surprised to discover how many people believed or disbelieved without checking the evidence.”

December 27, 2012 9:36 am

Someone check the time stamps on its post, could be it post on paid time.
Could be an infraction of some sort.

Greg House
December 27, 2012 10:37 am

rgbatduke says, December 26, 2012 at 10:24 pm: “I am a physicist […]On WUWT, I tend to police the physics …”
==========================================================
As far as I can see it, on WUWT you distort physics thus supporting, consciously or not, an anti-human agenda, and you use the opportunity also to promote such radical views as “the US should have fought on the side of the North-Vietnamese communists”.
Or look at this one: “It contains horror stories of genocidal femicidal infanticidal murder and open robbery and rape that at a level completely consistent with Hit*er’s acts of genocide and robbery in World War II — carried out by Moses”. I do not see why anyone who is not an anti-Semite would make such a comparison.

rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 12:19 pm

(This is getting too far off topic.)

rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 12:23 pm

Some people may be interested in Hugh Ross’ site at
http://www.reasons.org/about/our-creation-model-approach

ROTFL. Seriously.
Cognitive Dissonance, they name is legion…
rgb

December 27, 2012 2:01 pm

I got here very late. Lots of talk about the Bible. I used to feel obligated to get into “verse wars” with those who didn’t believe it and used verses, usually with a bit of a twist, to just argue about it. I don’t get into verse wars anymore.
(Amplified Bible) 1Co 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
I don’t mean that and I’m not directing that as a “put down” to anybody. But until someone accepts that there is something greater than they are and that they need that something, then they are left with only what they can perceive with the 5 senses. Spiritual matters are beyond the 5 senses.
One other thing, people tend to judge God by human standards. It’s the other way around. God didn’t and doesn’t owe Man anything. But one of His qualities is love and another is that He is just. That’s why, even though he wasn’t born Dec. 25, I’m thankful that God gave His only begotten son to satisfy the “legal” requirement none of us could pay for ourselves. (Read Romans 5 & 6 sometime.)

Julian Flood
December 27, 2012 2:56 pm

rgbatduke says
quote
On WUWT, I tend to police the physics and to a lesser extent the statistical validity of the discussion,
unquote
Any chance you could extend your remit? Please check
http://marinas.com/view/inlet/1668_Beaufort_Harbor_Inlet_NC_United_States
and admire the second image. Do you see it yet?
JF

Julian Flood
December 27, 2012 3:16 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says:December 27, 2012 at 7:46 am
quote
I am delighted to make Professor Brown’s acquaintance…[]
unquote
My lord,
While I do not approve of Dr Brown’s habit of making /ex cathedra/ statements and then refusing to engage with any contrary views, I find that even in his case the best policy is politeness — even, if necessary, excessive politeness. It sometimes works: on Open Mind (possibly the most inappropriately-named blog on the web) I managed to get Tamino to calculate the CO2 forcings for the 1910 to 1940 and 1970 to 2000 warming periods. The latter was 8 times the former, but he would not then engage in any discussion of the curious fact that the two periods warmed in an identical fashion.
It would be nice if Dr Brown could admit error, but that might be asking too much, for even when he states that he has never seen an oil/surfactant smoothed surface on the coast of North Carolina and I post pictures showing just such a phenomenon, he simply ignores the facts so that he can adhere to his pre-prepared world view. This attitude would be understandable in a layman, but is reprehensible in someone claiming to ‘police the physics’. Still, slowly slowly catchee monkey. He’ll look at
http://marinas.com/view/inlet/1668_Beaufort_Harbor_Inlet_NC_United_States
in the end and either mentally suppress the second image or suffer a change of heart. In the meantime there is no need to be rude. Think of it as educating a stubborn little boy.
JF

John West
December 27, 2012 3:20 pm

rgbatduke
On your Treatise on religion, I have only just begun (my wife “made” me take her to a Japanese steakhouse for lunch and then shopping), but I promise to read it in its entirety. Sadly though, I’m not impressed with what I’ve read so far.
I don’t agree with one of your early premises, not only do I not know the nature of God, I doubt it’s knowable.
”Vedantic Hinduism is organized monistic pandeism and acknowledges up front that its scriptures aremyths and legends to be mined for parabolic insight, not “divinely inspired truth””
I guess you’ve never heard the old Jewish saying (paraphrasing): “The Scriptures are True, and some of them may have actually happened.”
I suggest something can be both a myth and True.
“We begin at the beginning, with Genesis, a book common to all the Abrahamic faiths, a book that is essential to the rationale of salvation put forth in Christianity”
Genesis essential? Since when? Nobody told me. The Bible as we know it is a construct of the Catholic Church.
Ok enough exact quoting; suffice it to say you tear apart the story of a literal reading of Noah. That’s new. Imagine you’re back in high school and you did a similar critic of “Animal Farm”, would your teacher not have asked something like did you not get it wasn’t really about a farm? And yes there are clues in the scriptures that Noah isn’t to be taken literally. It mentions Nephilim being around in those days and afterward, yet no mention of Nephilim on board the ark. Hmmm. How’d that happen? Perhaps it’s not literal. From a satellite view of Noah: There was a great flood that greatly reduced human population at a time in human history when there were similar creatures as humans walking the Earth that weren’t human. From a satellite view from science: There was a great volcanic eruption that greatly reduced human population at a time in human history when other hominids were also present. Hmmm. Sounds pretty similar. Wonder if there was even a word for volcanic eruption in 3000 BC Hebrew. I can only imagine what wonders could be unlocked from the Bible if an intellect such as yourself read it like it was a great literary work instead of reading it like a science book gone astray.
Going back to Acts, it’s clear from the text that the couple conspired to gain the same fame the preceding couple had received by selling land and giving all the proceeds to the church but without actually giving the money they claimed to be giving as a percentage of proceeds. I agree that there have been insertions/interpretations for the purpose of political control by instilling fear, unfortunate indeed.
On the gospel of John, well, the modern comparison IMO would be an IPCC report. Hardly a glowing review, I know. John I’m afraid was written with a political objective in mind.
On the inconsistencies of the gospels, remember that CNN wasn’t on the scene and the gospels as we see them were put together from scraps of earlier writings and vetted through an IPCC like Catholic Church. For example, the gospel of Mathew was derived from “The Passion” which ended without even a resurrection. To continue your analogy we both remember different days the murder took place but we’re both being asked about it 20 years after the occurrence, so yes not surprising at all that we could both be credibly asserting we witnessed a murder but mistaken on which day 20 years ago we witnessed it.
On the end of the world, I’m a Preterist. The end of the (Temple Judaism) world has already happened. IMO, there are no Biblical predictions to wait for save the one about mankind making his nest among the stars. That’s the one I’m sure we agree needs to happen over the next few tens of thousands of years or so just in case something really bad happens to this planet. IMO, Revelations is not just symbolic; it’s in code, a micro bible written in disguise from oppressors (pre-Catholic Church rise to dominance). A critical piece of evidence: the number of Nero’s name is 666 or 661 depending upon which source language version of Revelation you’re reading.
Consider for a moment that I realize you outmatch me on IQ by a wide margin such that entering a contrary position with someone of your intellect is rather intimidating and I wouldn’t have if not for what I believe to be a rational conclusion from a whole lot of research. No, I’m not saying I can prove God exists or that my conclusion is the only possible rational conclusion.
I’m sure we’ve worn out the OT welcome on this one: I suggest a change of venue.

Gnomish
December 27, 2012 3:22 pm

so the spiritual masochism of cagw and co2 atavism is irrational because the invisible forces to which they attribute supernatural powers aren’t abrahamic?
why am i not laughing at the laughing stock?

LazyTeenager
December 27, 2012 4:05 pm

Christopher says
Much of this has been explained to “Lazy Teenager” before. However he remains not merely incorrigible but irredentist. Since he is furtively pseudonymous, one is entitled to speculate on whether he is one of those who are paid to introduce deliberate obfuscations into discussions such as this, in the hope of keeping the global-warming profiteers’ gravy train rolling just a little longer before it tips into the gulch. And, if he will not use his real name on his postings, no protestations by him to the contrary will carry any weight.
————
You are an expert debater Christopher. I can do a Google and find a nice listing of all the tricks. So I find your application of these things very educational.
I also get a little frisson of self-importance when a real live Lord has a go at ridiculing me. Is this one of those ad hominem attacks you keep latinising on about?

Lars P.
December 27, 2012 4:23 pm

Alexandriu Doru says:
December 26, 2012 at 1:33 pm
…. warming
Repeating something does not make it true and does not bear an argument.
You have not answered anything from my post.

LazyTeenager
December 27, 2012 4:31 pm

http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Nature/rapid.pdf
———–
Thanks E.E. Smith.
Haven’t read it yet but looks interesting. Not unexpected though.
The interesting questions though are:
1. What climate sensitivity does this modelling express?
2. What degree of positive feedback is needed to cause the climate to flip from one state to the other at the observed speed?
What Christopher doesn’t want to accept is that all of the rich behavior expressed by the climate including rapid transitions from one one leg of a bistable state to another, supposed oscillations and chaotic behavior require fairly high gain/climate sensitivity and lashings of positive feedback.
The only question is what is the minimum necessary.

Gnomish
December 27, 2012 4:39 pm

ha ha – see, Lazy – you ARE good for somethihg.
you’ve got a niche and you know how to scratch it!
fact is, without some kind of kicking dog, a title such as ‘lord’ would have the same significance as calling oneself ‘reverend doctor’ in the ghetto- i call it ‘the mascara mustache effect’, because it merely reveals the pretensions of the individual and his inadequate fakery.

rgbatduke
December 27, 2012 4:39 pm

Climatologists use Bayesian parameter estimation with uninformative prior PDFs in extracting posterior PDFs over the equilibrium climate sensitivity (TECS) from global temperature time series. AR4 explains that a uniform prior PDF is often used but this choice is arbitrary, for uninformative prior PDFs are of infinite number. Each uninformative prior PDF over TECS generates a different posterior PDF over TECS with consequential violation of the law of non-contradiction.
Sure.
I noted that they were claiming to use Bayesian methods to estimate their probabilities (which could be a good thing, if done well) but haven’t read into what they actually do in any detail.
rgb

Lars P.
December 27, 2012 4:48 pm

Gunga Din says:
December 27, 2012 at 2:01 pm
I got here very late. Lots of talk about the Bible. I used to feel obligated to get into “verse wars” with those who didn’t believe it and used verses, usually with a bit of a twist, to just argue about it. I don’t get into verse wars anymore.
He he, yes indeed an interesting parallel-thread-line being created here. Maybe Anthony could elevate at a certain time one comment to a post to allow for the discussion to be channelled on a separate thread, but that is an entirely different discussion, and people could get emotionally involved, we have enough religion in climate change already even without involving official religions.

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