Solar warming and ocean equilibrium, part 4
I emailed Dr. Muscheler about the very strange remarks that were attributed to him in the recently released report on last year’s NCAR workshop: The Effects of Solar Variability on Earth’s Climate. Dr. Muscheler says that the report’s version of his remarks “is obviously a mistake,” but he answers my query about what he had meant to say with yet another obvious mistake, a mistake the greatest import, and one which is no less egregious for being widespread.
The report (available for free download from the National Academies Press) seems to paraphrase Dr. Muscheler as claiming that cosmic ray flux during the late 20th century was “steady and high” (p. 17):
Muscheler stated that proxy data indicate that the cosmic-ray flux actually decreased early in the 20th century, but recently the level has been steady and high. Based on the proposed link between increased GCR flux and cloudiness, one might have expected that the late 20th century would be cooler than the early 20th century—a state that was not observed.
So I asked Dr. Muscheler:
By this paraphrase, your comment that “recently the level has been steady and high” seems to be referring to “the late 20th century,” but that can’t be right.
The abstract that you provided for your remarks begins by describing cosmogenic radionuclides as “the most reliable proxies for reconstructing solar activity variations thousands of years back into the past” (p. 41). But late 20th century solar activity was high, so if GCR is actually a proxy (inverted), it must have been low in the late 20th century [or it isn’t much of a proxy].
Usoskin 2007 estimated a grand maximum of solar activity from 1920 to 2000. Lockwood put the peak of this grand maximum in the mid 80’s. Thus the statement attributed to you has to be a mis-transcription of some sort.
I’m guessing that your remark about recent GCR flux levels being “steady and high” was actually a reference to post 2003, not to “the late 20th century.” But that leaves the question of on what grounds you were claiming that the late 20th century should have been cooler than the early 20th century, or did they mis-transcribe that as well?
… If you really do think that, according to the GCR data, the late 20th century should have been cooler than the early 20th century, can you please explain why?
Of course I know the highly unscientific grounds on which numerous “consensus” climate scientists make such claims, but it’s important to get them on record saying it.
You can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there
It’s not the level of the flame that causes warming, but the rate of change in the level of the flame. Everybody knows that, or so the anti-CO2 establishment would have us believe. See for instance, Rasmus Benestad, 2005:
A further comparison with the monthly sunspot number, cosmic galactic rays and 10.7 cm absolute radio flux since 1950 gives no indication of a systematic trend in the level of solar activity that can explain the most recent global warming.
It doesn’t matter that solar activity was at grand maximum levels from 1920 to 2000. Only the continued turning up a forcing can cause warming according to Dr. Benestad.
Here is a list of a dozen more top consensus climate scientists all making similar statements, and as I discovered from my “expert review” of the First Order Draft of AR5, this is now the IPCC’s official grounds for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming.
Would Muscheler add himself to the list? I had to give him a chance and he very graciously took it, thanking me for pointing to the obvious error in the transcription while confirming that, yes, he too looks at the wrong derivative. He should be looking at the zero derivative (the level of solar activity) but is instead looking at the first derivative (the rate of change in solar activity, or the trend).
Muscheler’s response (emphasis added)
Dear Alec Rawls,
unfortunately I haven’t been involved in writing this report. This statement is obviously a mistake and I don’t know why it ended up in the report.
In the early 20th century solar activity increased and, therefore, the cosmic ray flux decreased. According to the cosmic ray-cloud hypothesis the (low) clouds should have decreased and it should have led to a warming.
Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.
Maybe I was unclear in replying to a question or there was a misunderstanding from the person writing the report. Anyway it is obviously wrong in the report.
Thank you for making me aware of this problem. I will contact the authors and ask if it can be corrected.
Best wishes,
Raimund Muscheler
The hidden (and completely untenable) assumption of rapid ocean equilibration
Last year I emailed the dozen climate scientists from my list of those who have made these kinds of claims and suggested that they must be assuming that that by 1980 or so the oceans had already equilibrated to whatever temperature forcing effect high 20th century solar activity might be having, otherwise the continued high level of forcing would cause continued warming.
Several confirmed that they were indeed assuming rapid ocean equilibration to any change in climate forcing. One was Mike Lockwood, whose 2007 paper with Claus Fröhlich had opened with a strong assertion that it is the trend in a forcing, not the level of a forcing, that causes temperature change:
There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.
If the paper was assuming rapid ocean equilibration it really ought to have said so, but better late than never. In his response to me Lockwood offered evidence that ocean equilibration takes at most a decade, but his estimate does not stand up to scrutiny. It was derived from an energy balance model (Schwartz 2007) that represents the oceans by a single heat sink.
This is a highly unrealistic simplification (having the whole ocean change temperature at once). If a more realistic 2-heat-sink model is used, where it takes time for heat to transfer from one ocean layer to another (Kirk-Davidoff 2009), then rapid temperature adjustment of the upper ocean layer tells us next to nothing about how long it takes for the ocean to equilibrate to a long term forcing. (Full discussion in Part 2 of my “solar warming and ocean equilibrium” series.)
The Lockwood and Fröhlich paper acknowledges that there was a long natural warming from the bottom of the Little Ice Age (punctuated by notable downturns when solar activity fell during the Dalton Minimum and around the beginning of the last century), and they say themselves that this long natural warming was probably caused by increasing solar activity, yet we are supposed to be confident, on the basis of a completely unrealistic one-heat-sink model, that this long warming just happened to end in 1980, when the whole idea of a long period of solar warming is fundamentally inconsistent with that model. Crazy.
Workshop participant Isaac Held: “equilibration takes centuries”
One of NCAR’s workshop panelists actually addressed the time-to-equilibration issue (p. 21, emphasis added):
Issues in Climate Science Underlying Sun/Climate Research
Isaac M. Held, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory
In his presentation Isaac Held asserted that the response of the climate to radiative heating—whether it comes from greenhouse gases trapping heat, stratospheric aerosols from volcanic eruptions or aerosols of various origin reflecting sunlight back to space, or finally variable TSI heating—involves both the troposphere and the ocean. The surface and the troposphere are intimately coupled through fast radiative-convective adjustments so that they respond as a whole, with part of the heat input going into the ocean. The ocean heat uptake and later slow release back to the atmosphere are the factors responsible for the difference between the transient response of the climate to radiative forcing as compared to the equilibrium climate (some 40-70 percent of the adjustment is achieved on a timescale on the order of 4 years, whereas equilibration takes centuries). This transient behavior can be demonstrated using a simple two-box model of the mixed layer and deep ocean, and it applies to all radiative forcings, such as to the Mount Pinatubo volcanic aerosols, as well as for the response to the 11-year solar cycle. On stratosphere-troposphere coupling, there is recent observational evidence that in the Southern Hemisphere the surface westerlies (and the storm track) have shifted poleward by a few degrees due possibly to the ozone hole over the South Pole in the stratosphere.
[Stephen Wilde will want to look at what the report says about the rest of Held’s presentation.]
To clarify, when there is a long term change in forcing it isn’t 40-70 percent of the eventual deep ocean heat storage that is achieved within four years. Here Held is talking about the time-response of GMAST (the Global Mean Air Surface Temperature), which is largely driven by ocean surface temperature, and the ocean surface warms up quickly in response to an increase in forcing.
If elevated forcing persists for decades or centuries this warmed-up upper ocean layer will all-the-while be transferring heat to deeper ocean depths, causing the temperature differential between the upper and lower layers to shrink which in turn causes a slowing of the heat loss from the upper ocean to the deeper ocean. That slow decrease in heat loss from the upper ocean layer causes the upper ocean layer to slowly get warmer, which in turn causes a slow increase in atmospheric surface temperatures (the remaining 30-60 percent of the GMAST increase that Held is referring to). This continued warming can go on for centuries.
So I must appeal to Dr. Held: you really need to point out to your colleagues the implications of moving to a more realistic “two box model” (never mind a 3 or 4 box model) where it takes time for heat to accumulate in deeper ocean layers. If prolonged forcing can cause the oceans to warm for centuries (and GMAST to continue to rise for centuries) then no, we cannot be confident that by 1980 the oceans had equilibrated to the 20th century’s grand maximum levels of solar activity.
This is regardless of whether those levels were pre or post peak. It’s the level that matters, not the trend.
A helpful diagram
If anyone has trouble understanding why they should be looking at the level of a hypothesized solar-magnetic forcing, not just the trend, here is a helpful diagram from Ken Gregory:
Temperature falls only when the level of forcing falls below that needed to maintain the current temperature. With typical cyclical behavior, temperature peaks often lag considerably behind peaks in forcing. Everybody is familiar with this phenomenon from daytime temperatures, which do not peak at noon but peak in the mid-afternoon. So too with longer period forcings and deeper heat sinks.
So no, if temperature continues to rise after solar forcing has peaked it does not indicate that the continued warming is not caused by solar forcing. On the contrary, it is exactly what we would expect from a solar driver of climate.
In the case of late 20th century solar forcing there really was no discernable peak but rather a 50-year plateau, in which case temperatures should continue to rise until equilibrium is reached. There is no reason to think the oceans would have equilibrated to high 20th century forcing by 1980, and so no reason to dismiss a solar explanation for post 1980 warming.
Day vs. Season
In part 3 of my series Solanki and Scheussler offered a different rationale for assuming rapid ocean equilibration. The strong correlation between solar activity and climate that they had found was strongest with a short lag, less than ten years, so if there were longer-term solar effects, these scientists insisted that they had found no evidence for it. But that is wrong. Rapid responses to solar forcing are evidence for longer term responses, just as the rapid daytime temperature response to the rising sun implies that the hemispheres should warm when their seasons progress towards the greater insolation of summer.
This is pretty basic stuff so maybe these guys just aren’t getting out enough. They don’t talk to people who don’t share their eagerness to grab at any rationale that supports the CO2-warming theory, no matter how patently weak it is. And its pretty clear they aren’t even talking about these things amongst themselves.
Not a one of the quotes I have compiled betrays any hint of hidden assumptions about rapid ocean equilibration or anything else. They are unconditioned statements: the solar flame was not rising so it could not have caused warming. Only when pressed by WUWT do they scramble to support their unstated premises.
For each of these scientists it seems that plan-A was that nobody would notice that they were looking at the wrong derivative.
Leif Gets It right (right Leif?)
On the other side we have everyone who has ever heated a pot of water, including our own Dr. Leif Svalgaard, who was provoked last month to admit:
When I start the pot in the morning on maximum in order to get hot water for my tea and to boil my eggs, it works great for me. I get hot tea and boiled eggs in minimum time. If I turn down the heat, it takes longer…
Good thing Leif has tenure already. His mundane observation rebuts the very heart of the anti-CO2 industry’s dismissal of solar-driven warming.
Another question for Muscheler
When 50 years of steady high solar activity coincide with rising average temperatures, that would seem to be evidence for a solar driver of climate. What is Raimund Muscheler’s grounds for taking it as evidence against? His response to my first query does not say, so I sent him a second. I am contacting Isaac Held as well, whose 2 cents would be much appreciated.
Maybe Raimund really does think that it is the rate of change of a forcing rather than the level of a forcing that causes warming but I doubt it. More likely he has accepted the rapid-ocean-equilibrium assumption of Lockwood, Solanki and others without thinking it through. (Note that the paraphrase of Muscheler’s comments in NAP’s NCAR report has him making the same assertion as Lockwood: that if the sun were driving global temperature then late 20th century temperatures should have been falling, not rising. That seems to indicate a Lockwood-like rapid equilibrium assumption)
Muscheler’s 2007 paper on paleo and recent GCR deposition suggests that 20th century solar activity was merely “high instead of exceptional,” but for time-to-equilibration this distinction makes no qualitative difference. It is true that the smaller the change in forcing the faster equilibrium should be reached (like starting partway in on the equilibration response to a larger change in forcing), so maybe Muscheler sees himself as having strengthened the grounds for the rapid-equilibrium assumption, but that assumption is fundamentally flawed. It can’t be saved by a marginal adjustment of the forcing in question.
Remember the hypothesis Muscheler is trying to dismiss: that solar activity does have a substantial forcing effect, strong enough to be responsible for late 20th century warming. But if the forcing effect of solar activity is substantial then there is no reason to think that the oceans must have equilibrated to a sustained high level of such forcing by any particular 20th century date, hence no reason to say that late 20th century warming couldn’t have been caused by the continuing high level of solar activity.
Perhaps Dr. Muscheler has some other argument for why a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming but if he has been carelessly making the same unstated rapid-equilibrium assumption as Lockwood et al., here is an opportunity to reconsider. We all make unconscious assumptions. Progress in understanding often comes from uncovering and scrutinizing those hidden assumptions, allowing any errors they contain to be corrected. There is no shame in such a re-evaluation. It is how we move forward.
If Dr. Muscheler would like to give a response that is not framed by my commentary I am sure that Anthony would be glad to offer him a guest post. Raimund been game so far, and hopefully will continue to be forthcoming.
My own summary conclusion
There is no possible way to sustain the claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause continued warming, or to sustain with any confidence the hidden claim that the oceans must have equilibrated to high 20th century solar activity by 1980. Without these claims AR5 goes straight to the trash bin and solar activity is still very much in play as an explanation for late 20th century warming.
If solar activity is responsible for any substantial chunk of that warming then CO2 becomes utterly benign. The IPCC’s high estimates of climate sensitivity, needed in order to attribute all recent warming to CO2, are off the table, meaning no possibility of any kind of run-away warming, and if solar activity is the primary explanation for late 20th century warming then the danger going forward is global cooling (now that the sun has turned quiet), making expensive efforts to reduce CO2 emissions the sheerest lunacy.
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Leif dismisses a solar explanation for late 20th century warming on the grounds that: “we have had similar high solar activity in the 18th and 19th centuries without such warming.”
Those are not very good examples. The 18th century shows a pretty near perfect correlation between solar activity (Usoskin 2003) and temperature (Loehle 2008)? Solar activity jumped up after the Maunder minimum and temperatures did too.
The 19th century is not so clear. Temperatures at the end were pretty similar to the beginning, maybe a bit cooler, but in support of the solar explanation, there was the Dalton Minimum to cause a temperature setback at the beginning of the century, and a late 19th century solar lull as well, and the Dalton DID coincide with a pretty significant dip in temperatures. So I think if Leif wants to find an actual counterexample he’ll need to search a little further.
There’s a lot of temperature-solar activity to search through. I’m sure he can find something. In the meantime, are we agreed that Muscheler’s grounds for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming is nonsense?
Leif Svalgaard says October 14, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Here is a better version [red curves]: http://www.leif.org/research/Temp-Track-Sun-Not.png
Any chance of the dataset for this please?
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 14, 2012 at 4:25 pm
It does not. The T in TSI means Total Solar Energy output. It is measured by letting sunlight heat an instrument in space. Furthermore, all the variation in TSI comes from variations of the sun’s magnetic field which then follows variations in TSI.
=======
The sun emits much more than sunlight. You are limiting your TSI logic to heating by radiative energy transfer. A change in radiative energy transfer is not required for the sun to affect climate.
Nature always seeks the least expensive way to accomplish what it does. All that is required is for the sun to change the atmosphere electro-chemically, which will change the climate without any change in TSI. For example, by changing atmospheric ionization rates.
As to the sun’s magnetic field driving all variation in TSI, that seems highly unlikely. Under the standard model the sun is in dynamic balance between gravity and nuclear energy. This balance will oscillate in the presence of any excitation. The years/centuries it takes for the energy to reach the surface masks this oscillation, making prediction unreliable, making cause and effect analysis unreliable at best..
Science is easy. Its the discipline to adhere to rigor that is hard.
Alec Rawls says:
October 14, 2012 at 5:39 pm
The 18th century shows a pretty near perfect correlation between solar activity (Usoskin 2003) and temperature (Loehle 2008)? Solar activity jumped up after the Maunder minimum and temperatures did too.
Usokin’s graph is based on the flawed Group Sunspot Number and cannot be trusted. There are many reconstructions out there that show various things [most of the flawed]. Here is one that compares Moberg’s temperature reconstruction with Solanki’s sunspot reconstruction: http://www.leif.org/research/Moberg-Solanki-Correlation.png and here is one using Loehle: http://www.leif.org/research/Loehle-Temps-and-TSI.png (the TSI is actually derived from 10Be – middle panel – and 14C -lower panel) and http://www.leif.org/research/Global-Temperatures-2000-yrs.png
The 19th century is not so clear. Temperatures at the end were pretty similar to the beginning, maybe a bit cooler, but in support of the solar explanation, there was the Dalton Minimum to cause a temperature setback at the beginning of the century, and a late 19th century solar lull as well, and the Dalton DID coincide with a pretty significant dip in temperatures. So I think if Leif wants to find an actual counterexample he’ll need to search a little further.
At the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th solar activity was comparable to what it was at the end of the 20th centuries and beginning of the 21st, but temperatures were not.
are we agreed that Muscheler’s grounds for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming is nonsense?
No, his reasons are clear and simple: solar activity was not exceptional, but global warming is.
Matthew R Marler: There is indeed at least a rough correlation between solar activity and temperature over the last few centuries. When the sun was very quiet in the 1600s, climate was at the bottom of the Little Ice Age. When the sun reached what everyone but Leif thinks was a grand maximum of solar activity from the early 1920s to the early 2000’s, it got warm.
Not to say Leif is wrong, but warming contemperanous with mere “high” rather than “exceptional” solar activity is obviously also compatible with the hypothesis of solar driven warming. For the intervening centures (the 18th and 19th), I responded to Leif above, they too are suggestive-of/ consistent-with a solar explanation.
As for a “montonic” relationship, you’re not going to find that beause temperature fluctuations are dominated by ocean oscillations.
Leif says:
Do you expect them to be, after an intervening century of some of the highest solar activity on record? You have some very funny ideas Leif. It’s like someone who is adding up numbers stopping and exclaiming:
Almost as crazy as thinking that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming. Leif, you ARE aware aren’t you that the ocean is a heat sink? Do you really think that the fact that similar levels of solar activity do not always correspond to similar temperatures means that solar activity cannot be driving climate?
I’m going to have to add that to my list of blatantly untenable excuses out tenured scientists are putting out for dismissing a solar explanation for 20th century warming.
AndyG55 says:
October 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Leif, are you saying that TSI has been essentially constant (with regular oscillation) since 1850, how about before that, to the Maunder minimum.
Essentially, yes. And during the Maunder Minimum, the upwards bumps may be smaller but the bottom stays the same.
What does it show if you adjust your TSI axis to go from 1361 to 1360 ?
You must mean from 1361 to 1362: http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-1361-1362.png
AJB says:
October 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Any chance of the dataset for this please?
Send me an email to remind me, I’m somewhat busy now.
ferdberple says:
October 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm
As to the sun’s magnetic field driving all variation in TSI, that seems highly unlikely.
That is what the observations show, like it or not.
Under the standard model the sun is in dynamic balance between gravity and nuclear energy. This balance will oscillate in the presence of any excitation. The years/centuries it takes for the energy to reach the surface masks this oscillation, making prediction unreliable, making cause and effect analysis unreliable at best
It takes 250,000 years for the nuclear energy to reach the surface so ANY variation on a time scale shorter than that is washed out.
Alec Rawls says:
October 14, 2012 at 6:08 pm
Do you expect them to be, after an intervening century of some of the highest solar activity on record?
The 20th century was not exceptionally high, and all the arguments about heat sink and lags apply equally well to the high activity in the 18th century, so we should simply see a shift in the two curves.
I’m going to have to add that to my list of blatantly untenable excuses out tenured scientists are putting out for dismissing a solar explanation for 20th century warming.
Good, then you have some good arguments to use when you eventually turn around on this.
The heat only needs to be upped once and left at that level for a continued period for warming to occur, like when putting the gas on at a fixed setting to warm water in the saucepan. Any how a decline in low level clouds by 4 percent observed by satellite over the globe easily accounts for this previous ocean warming that had contributed towards previous global warming and Arctic ice melt. The way global temperatures are flat lining does look like this equilibrium of the previous switch has been reached.
Alec Rawls: There is indeed at least a rough correlation between solar activity and temperature over the last few centuries.
Let me try again. Is the rate of change of temperature proportional to, or monotonically related to, solar output. Obviously the relationship has R^2 < 1. In the 20th century, for example, temps had a positive rate of change, then negative or near 0, then positive again, then near 0. Over the 20th century, to select one subset, is the rate of change of temperature related to a measure of solar output. How about over the epoch since the end of the LIA?
ferdberple says:
October 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm
As to the sun’s magnetic field driving all variation in TSI, that seems highly unlikely.
That is what the observations show, like it or not.
I forgot a reference:
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/590/2/1088/fulltext/57000.text.html
“Current empirical models of total solar irradiance variability appear to be reaching a consensus that observed solar magnetic features are sufficient to account for most if not all of the observed changes in S [TSI]”
There is another mechanism related to TSI that you are neglecting. Electrical engineers call it pulse width modulation. My gas stove has a special burner that has a very low heat range below the normal low setting. The amount of heat is regulated by the amount of time the flame is on. At the very lowest end, the flame will only be on for a few seconds and then shut off for a minute. At the upper end of the range the flame will be on most of the time and off for a few seconds.
The solar cycle is not a regular sine wave with TSI varying in a nice periodic way. The period varies quite a bit. Pulse width modulation applies here just as with my stove. When the cycle is varying rapidly it will apply more heat to the earth, and conversely less when it varies slowly, despite the apparent fact (according to Leif) that the TSI ampltude is quite stable. This accords with the observation (Frohlich?) that the earth is warmer when the sunspots cycle more rapidly.
ferd writes “It is illogical to argue a constant TSI means the sun is not the source of climate change. The sun emits much more than is measured by TSI. Much of what is not included in TSI is highly variable.”
and Leif responds “It does not. The T in TSI means Total Solar Energy output. It is measured by letting sunlight heat an instrument in space. Furthermore, all the variation in TSI comes from variations of the sun’s magnetic field which then follows variations in TSI.”
I think you’re going to have to explain that Leif. Perhaps you’re talking past each other but it seems to me that ferd (and others) are describing the fact that whilst TSI doesn’t vary much the frequencies of light that make up the total vary considerably. Much more than was previously thought…and indeed much more than was used to derive much of the “TSI based science” in the past.
Whoops, I left out a crucial idea.
The amount of heat is regulated by the amount of time the flame is on. However the flame height is always the same as the low heat setting.
Paul Linsay says:
October 14, 2012 at 6:47 pm
There is another mechanism related to TSI that you are neglecting. Electrical engineers call it pulse width modulation.
If this is applicable, it is applicable in every century, thus also for the 18th and 19th.
Lief, and others, “You can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there” is not BT’s statement or position, but his characterization of the AGW position, which he is disputing.
Alec Rawls says
You can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there
It’s not the level of the flame that causes warming, but the rate of change in the level of the flame. Everybody knows that, or so the anti-CO2 establishment would have us believe. See for instance, Rasmus Benestad, 2005:
————-
What on earth are you talking about?
Talk about whopping great straw man argument.
This is an obvious misrepresention of what scientists actually say. And asuuming it’s not deliberate deceit, it really boils down to Alex not being able to understand the distinction between transient and equilibrium behavior.
TimTheToolMan says:
October 14, 2012 at 6:52 pm
the fact that whilst TSI doesn’t vary much the frequencies of light that make up the total vary considerably.
Although those variations [which BTW are not secure yet, there are calibration issues and uncertainties] vary a lot, the energy they represent is still minute. It is like trying to assess Bill Gates’ wealth based on the variation of loose change in his pockets. And in any case, the variations still reflect variations of the solar magnetic field. Slide 3 of http://www.leif.org/research/The%20long-term%20variation%20of%20solar%20activity.pdf shows the effect of the proposed variations on temperature at the surface. Interestingly enough they lead to much smaller influence on temperature than the ‘old’ values. This is because the visble TSI would be smaller and that is where most of the energy is.
I find the Eichler et al paper the most convinving on the role of solar forcing on atmospheric temperatures as determined by comparing solar proxies from an ice core from the Altai glacier and comparing it to temperatures derived also from this core.
http://lch.web.psi.ch/files/Publikationen/analytic/Eichleretal_GRL2009.pdf
The authors concluded that that the pre industrial temperature history (1250-1850) could be completely explained by solar forcing with a 10 to 20 year lag but that the late twentieth century warming could only be attributed 50% to solar forcing. While the predicted temperature increase at the Altai site was underestimated by 50 % it did in fact correctly predict the actual global temp which was 50% less than the Altai site (polar amplification?).
I believe the poleward shift and increase of the strength of the Antarctic westerlies along with the ever increasing ozone hole is likely associated with the decreasing solar wind and increasing cosmic rays. The circum polar current is the strongest in the world and the only one that connects all ocean basins. It is currently bringing unusually cold deep water due to Ekman pumping which I believe is responsible for the rapidly cooling southern Hemisphere as evident in thirty year low SSTs in the Southern Ocean and the recent decline in the South Atlantic as well as the East Pacific through various Kelvin and Rosserby wave teleconnections.
The decline in the solar wind began in 1992 and ten years later we are now beginning to see the decline in world wide temps.
richcar 1225 says:
October 14, 2012 at 7:25 pm
I find the Eichler et al paper the most convinving on the role of solar forcing on atmospheric temperatures as determined by comparing solar proxies
Is based on the flawed Group Sunspot Number, so is not so convincing.
John Shade on October 14, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I keep getting the impression that the scientific brains of those on the side of climate alarm are an order of magnitude less impressive than those of those who are as yet unconvinced by the hysteria.
——–
You have gained that impression by only visiting blogs intended to promote that impression. You need to take the blinkers off.
Leif writes “shows the effect of the proposed variations on temperature at the surface.”
Based on what? Models that were constructed based on an incorrect understanding in the first place? I suspect the changes to science due to changed understanding of what makes up “TSI” could run much deeper than you seem to expect.
For starters, as you say, we only have a very small amount of data so its virtually impossible to understand the implications at this point. Claims of irrelevancy seem premature.
has anyone here besides leif
a. looked at the actual instruments with which sun spots were observed
b. examined the raw data
c. examined the adjustment factors applied to the data.
until you do you have no standing to question his position.
TimTheToolMan says:
October 14, 2012 at 8:09 pm
it’s virtually impossible to understand the implications at this point. Claims of irrelevancy seem premature.
By the same token, so are claims of relevancy.
Keith DeHavelle says:
There are other more nimble players than the deep ocean producing CO2 in response to warming. Probably mostly on land and in spite of offsetting photosynthesis, weathering, and carbonate deposition and remineralization also enhanced by warming, the wee beasties prevail.