I’ve been watching the JAXA sea ice data on the WUWT sea ice page intently for the last few days. Click to enlarge.
I was ready to call the minimum this morning, but thought I’d get a second opinion, so I wrote to NSIDC’s Dr. Walt Meier
On 9/19/2012 8:34 AM, Anthony wrote:
> I think we’ve reached the turning point for Arctic Sea ice today, do
> you concur?
> Anthony
who responded with:
Yep: http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
If you’re interested I could write up a guest post some time soon (maybe
this weekend); might be useful to expound a bit more on the differences
between NSIDC and MASIE/IMS (it’s still just a bit higher than us, but
as you’ve probably seen it did pass below its 2007 level). Nice
interview on PBS by the way.
walt
__________________________________________________________
Walt Meier Research Scientist
National Snow and Ice Data Center Univ. of Colorado
UCB 449, Boulder, CO 80309 walt@xxxx.xxx
Tel: 303-xxxx-xxxx Fax: 303-xxxx-xxxx
“If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be
called research, would it?” – Albert Einstein
__________________________________________________________
Walt, thanks for the compliment about my PBS interview. As for the guest post, I’ll trade you.
I’ll trade you a guest post on WUWT for making good on your promise of NSIDC “eventually” publishing your daily data like JAXA and other sea ice monitoring outlets do.
Quite a lot of time has passed since that promise was made. Thanks for your consideration – Anthony
Worth noting is this statement from the NSIDC today:
On September 16, 2012 sea ice extent dropped to 3.41 million square kilometers (1.32 million square miles). This appears to have been the lowest extent of the year. In response to the setting sun and falling temperatures, ice extent will
notnow climb through autumn and winter. However, a shift in wind patterns or a period of late season melt could still push the ice extent lower. The minimum extent was reached three days later than the 1979 to 2000 average minimum date of September 13.This year’s minimum was 760,000 square kilometers (293,000 square miles) below the previous record minimum extent in the satellite record, which occurred on September 18, 2007.
I think Walt meant to say “will” instead of “will not” here: In response to the setting sun and falling temperatures, ice extent will not climb through autumn and winter.
[update: he says its been fixed to read “will now”, I’ve corrected text here also. -A ]
At 3.41 million sq km, that means that in the ARCUS forecasting contest, everybody missed the forecast mark:
Download High Resolution Version of Figure 1.
Note that NSIDC’s Dr. Meier and WUWT had identical forecasts of 4.5 million sq km submitted to ARCUS, so we share the failure equally. That big storm in the Arctic really busted up the ice as well as the predictions.
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![AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent_L[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/amsre_sea_ice_extent_l1.png?resize=640%2C400&quality=75)
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Arctic sea ice has been steadily receding for many years. What is not often mentioned is that the water temperature in the Fram Strait [east coast off Greenland] has warmed by ≈3.5ºC over the past century.
Once again, CO2 has nothing to do with Arctic ice cover. Nothing. Ocean currents shift over time, and they get warmer and cooler. Naturally. And since global warming amounts to only 0.8ºC, then other regions of the planet must be commensurately colder.
LazyTeenager says:September 19, 2012 at 1:49 pm
So how do you know that the AMO is especially warm and why is it especially warm?
Look at the graph on the reference page, and read Bob Tisdale’s posts.
D. J. Hawkins says:
September 19, 2012 at 10:23 am
There are several papers by Kato and Loeb that look at this issue, sadly behind paywalls. But you can see from the figures available that the albedo of open sea water is always significantly lower than ice, even at high latitudes.
Sure, heat will be re-radiated upwards, into the atmosphere and eventually out into space. But that heat (which in its travels creates water vapor and higher air temperatures) would never have been absorbed at all in the alternative, ice covered scenario. In this sense I disagree with David M. Hoffer, who wrote:
No, the absence of ice means the absorption of heat that otherwise would not have been absorbed at all. The alternative is that the ice would never have melted at all, as in earlier years in the satellite record. The incoming radiation of late August and early September would have been reflected out to space immediately, not captured, held, and gradually re-radiated.
And why aren’t we discussing the IMS sea ice chart? Wasn’t there a post on this blog just a little while ago holding up that chart as the gold standard?
HenryP says:
September 19, 2012 at 12:15 pm
As I said, by my analysis, all the arctic ice will be back, by 2039, as it did freeze back from 1925-1945
Does anyone here have access to that newspaper report from 1920 or 1921 that I saw on WUWT where all were surprised about same ice melt at that time?
=====================
HenryP,
Steve Goddard is a good place to go for old newspaper clippings.
davidmhoffer says:
September 19, 2012 at 1:29 pm
NORSEX and DMI show an even more pronounced “recovery” (see the sea ice page). Don’t know why large chunks of perfectly good ocean being covered with pretty much useless ice is called a “recovery”, but I think the arctic circle temps from DMI are even more interesting. As several people have pointed out, the absence of ice mean an awful lot of energy being dissipated that would otherwise have been trapped under the ice. So, initially I would expect warmer than average air temps, and once the heat from the water has been exhausted, a precipitous decline. Too early to tell, but have a look at arctic circle temps from DMI:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php
This is the North of 80ºN temps not the Arctic circle temps.
How reliable are satellite surveys of sea ice extent?
It used to be claimed that satellites could not distinguish melt ponds on the surface of ice floes from nearby open seawater. This 2003 press release from Goddard Space Flight Center (not Hansen’s GISS) suggests that this problem has been solved, but I wonder.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0918meltwater.html
Could soot from Asia be increasing melt pond formation, both contributing to more rapid sea ice melting & making its extent appear larger?
Maybe NASA could fly more survey aircraft or cruise more research ship missions to verify the extent determined by satellite, which IMO would be money better spent than on more GIGO computer modelling.
dvunkannon;
In this sense I disagree with David M. Hoffer, who wrote:
As several people have pointed out, the absence of ice mean an awful lot of energy being dissipated that would otherwise have been trapped under the ice.
No, the absence of ice means the absorption of heat that otherwise would not have been absorbed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are forgetting that the sun has a high angle of incidence this time of year for only a brief part of the day. The rest of the time the angle of incidence is rather low, and water reflects the bulk of the insolation at low angles of incidence, even more than snow and ice. Catch the sunset reflecting off of water and it is blinding. Not so much with snow and ice. Plus the days are getting shorter, so night time hours will soon exceed day time hours. As for absorption and re-radiation, uhm…. from what? Ozone concentrations are beginning to collapse (as they do every year at this time), and at surface temps of zero C or less, the amount of atmospheric water vapour is almost nil. CO2? Not enough to matter by comparison, not to mention that with all that cold water suddenly exposed to the atmosphere, CO2 is being sucked out of it like mad.
So, not much heat being absorbed from the sun, plenty being radiated out, and much if it with a free pass to outer space.
D Boehm said
“Once again, CO2 has nothing to do with Arctic ice cover. Nothing. Ocean currents shift over time, and they get warmer and cooler. Naturally. And since global warming amounts to only 0.8ºC, then other regions of the planet must be commensurately colder.”
Repeating a claim does not make it more valid and that claim starts with wishful thinking and ends with a statement that is plain wrong.
The mean surface temperature (Land-Ocean) has indeed risen by about 0.8C over the last century and whilst the northern hemisphere has warmed more, the southern hemisphere has also warmed, but at a slower rate.
Variations in ocean currents do not alone explain the observed arctic melt. A common sceptic error is to use black and white arguments that exclude multi-forcing mechanisms.
The recent study
http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/7/3/034011/
showed that ocean currents could explain some of the observed arctic melt, but most of it was likely caused by global warming ie 2 forcing mechanisms (at least).
The warming of the arctic is not in isolation, it fits alongside the warming of the planet, particularly in the north and particularly over land. Throughout this summer there have been large positive anomalies in surface temperatures right around the arctic covering Canada, Greenland and Siberia with only the latter showing closer to normal temperatures in August (NASA GISS).
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/
reports that
“The globally-averaged land surface temperature for June–August 2012 was the all-time warmest June–August on record, at 1.03°C (1.85°F) above average.”
So with positive anomalies in sea surface temperature in much of the arctic alongside big air temperature positive anomalies, it is little wonder that arctic sea ice recorded a record minimum in the satellite record.
And before anyone says it – yes the antarctic sea ice is behaving differently – accepted.
William says:
September 19, 2012 at 11:16 am
“http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0612/0612145v1.pdf
The Antarctic climate anomaly and galactic cosmic rays By, Henrik Svensmark
Contradictory trends in temperature in Antarctica and the rest of the world, which are evident on timescales from millennia to decades, provide a strong clue to what drives climate change. The southern continent is distinguished by its isolation and by its unusual response to changes in cloud cover. While the rest of the global surface is (on balance) cooled by clouds, they have a warming effect on high-albedo snowfields[5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10].”
From prior posts as well, I’m starting to recognize your name as one of the most informative posters here.
Good link. Indeed. (And, for example, in http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/6000/6502/antarctic_temps.AVH1982-2004.jpg , one can see a sharp contrast between the GCR and cloud-driven temperature change over Antarctic snow/ice whiter than even the clouds versus over the lower-albedo surrounding ocean right nearby; for later years and more globally, the prime cause of the false divergence in cloud cover trends from the ISCCP at Hansen’s GISS versus cloud cover trends from other sources and that expected from GCR trends is noted at http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/further-attempt-to-falsify-the-svensmark-hypothesis/ ).
——————-
If anyone has not seen some paramount graphs noted in a prior thread:
The actual picture of arctic ice extent from the 1970s to now in annual trends less misleading than single months alone:
http://www.webcitation.org/6AKKakUIo
showing how, in annual averages (not a single month post-storm), recent years are comparable to the mid-1990s in arctic ice extent
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/ArcticIce/Images/arctic_temp_trends_rt.gif
showing how the mid-1990s had less warm arctic temperatures than reached in the 1930s
Plots from http://nwpi.krc.karelia.ru/e/climas/Ice/Ice_no_sat/XX_Arctic.htm include the following of August ice extent in the Siberian arctic basin from the 1920s through the end of the 20th century, with once again the decline in the latter time period being just rather similar to when it went down more than a half-century ago (before later up again during the 1960s – early 1970s era of the global cooling scare, which occurred for a reason):
http://nwpi.krc.karelia.ru/e/climas/Ice/Ice_no_sat/fig2.gif
Anyone that ends their email with:
“If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be
called research, would it?” – Albert Einstein
===========
Just gained my respect.
Mr. Abbott:
I don’t know why you would rely on temperature data from NOAA & NASA, which disgraced agencies so shamelessly “adjust” instrument readings higher if recent & lower if older. With respect to high latitudes specifically, there are these instances of data manipulation (in this case deletions):
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/05/31/giss-deletes-arctic-and-southern-ocean-sea-surface-temperature-data/
This northern summer does not appear unusually warm in the Arctic, while does seem colder than normal in the Antarctic. Parts of North America were indeed hotter than normal, but not so “unprecedentedly” as claimed by federal cooked books & the uncritical media. At the same time other areas of North America (as in my native Pacific NW) & the temperate Northern Hemisphere (the UK, for instance) were cooler & wetter than usual. Much of the Southern Hemisphere experienced a colder than typical winter, with rare snowfall in South Africa.
Here’s how NASA fairly honestly explained this year’s excursion from the mean in sea ice extent:
This year, a powerful cyclone formed off the coast of Alaska and moved on Aug. 5 to the center of the Arctic Ocean, where it churned the weakened ice cover for several days. The storm cut off a large section of sea ice north of the Chukchi Sea and pushed it south to warmer waters that made it melt entirely. It also broke vast extensions of ice into smaller pieces more likely to melt.
“The storm definitely seems to have played a role in this year’s unusually large retreat of the ice”, Parkinson said. “But that exact same storm, had it occurred decades ago when the ice was thicker and more extensive, likely wouldn’t have had as prominent an impact, because the ice wasn’t as vulnerable then as it is now.”
I’d like to see actual data on sea ice thickness, but the imagery is instructive. Clearly, the major excursion from the 30-year average occurred in the Arctic Ocean adjoining the Chukchi & Beaufort Seas, the area affected by the early August Alaskan storm.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-seaicemin.html
Interestingly (to me, anyway) more ice than normal survived off NE Greenland & in Ross & Franklin Straits north & west of the Boothia Peninsula. I don’t know if the latter is a common feature of the melt, but obviously the western Fram Strait & Weddell Sea ice is unusual, albeit a relatively small departure from the mean.
Everyone missed it, so….it was….ah……worse than we thought……
Making a note to ignore headlines for a week or so. It’s going to ugly…
James Abbott says:
“And before anyone says it – yes the antarctic sea ice is behaving differently – accepted.”
Not accepted. How many times do we have to post the evidence? Arctic ice has receded more than at present at various times during the Holocene. That is a fact, based on empirical data and eyewitness observations. In other words, based on scientific evidence.
Next, your first link says:
The potential sources of this discrepancy include: observational uncertainty, physical model limitations and vigorous natural climate variability.
That is far from scientific evidence. In fact, the authors admit they do not have scientific evidence, which consists of raw data and verifiable, testable scientific observations. So that link does not support your argument.
Your second link says nothing whatever about anthropogenic CO2, which was my comment that you responded to. That is known as moving the goal posts, AKA: a straw man, or red herring fallacy.
You also argue against basic thermodynamics when you apparently claim that warming in one region is not offset by cooling in one or more other regions. And of course you disregard the fact that the Antarctic is cooling, and also adding ice mass.
Finally, what is the problem, exactly, with an ice-free Arctic? The benefits are clear: lower shipping costs and more easily recoverable energy sources. All the wild-eyed arm waving over Arctic sea ice is because every other prediction made by the alarmist cult has been falsified.
• • •
johnpetroff says:
“Thank you for admitting warming is occurring. Was that so hard?”
“Admitting”? You condescending know-it-all. My clearly stated position since WUWT began is that the planet is recovering [warming] from the Little Ice Age. It is warming naturally. There may be a small amount of warming due to CO2, but it is so minuscule that it can be disregarded for all practical purposes.
Temperature has a far greater effect on CO2 than vice-versa. The effect of CO2 [which I think exists] is so small that it is not measurable. Thus, no time, money or effort is needed to address CO2 emissions — which are entirely beneficial, and harmless.
Next, Wood For Trees is a data base that is accepted by everyone on both sides of the debate. Well, everyone except you. You are just hoping to find something wrong with the CO2/T relationship, but it just isn’t there. CO2 continues to rise. But temperature does not follow, as was universally predicted by the alarmist crowd. They were wrong, as usual.
Finally, NOAA’s use of a zero baseline chart is done deliberately to fool the eye into believing that global warming is accelerating. If they used a trend chart like this…
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2reh021.jpg
…it would show that the long term trend [the green trend line] remains unchanged, despite the large rise in CO2. The natural global warming since the LIA is the same whether CO2 is high or low. But the truth would spoil their alarming narrative, so they use a zero baseline chart to fool the credulous.
@Steve C
September 19, 2012 at 11:51 am
Roy, can you find a link for that story? I’ve seen occasional similar reports from Greenland, but haven’t come across that one. TIA.
Steve: look at http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-eskimo-village-discovered-thanks-depleting-arctic-ice-155415624.html
And thanks, Roy.
IanM
James Abbott says:
September 19, 2012 at 4:20 pm
“Variations in ocean currents do not alone explain the observed arctic melt. A common sceptic error is to use black and white arguments that exclude multi-forcing mechanisms.”
This is the funniest and hypocritical post I have seen in a long time. Let me correct it to reflect reality:
“Increases in Co2 do not explain the observed Arctic melt. A common warmist error is to use black and white arguments that exclude multi-forcing mechanisms.”
LazyTeenager says:
September 19, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Richard deSousa on September 19, 2012 at 10:11 am
It’s not CO2 which caused the lowest minimum of the Arctic ice pack this year but the warm AMO! Once the AMO turns negative, and it will, every thing will return to “normal.”
————
So how do you know that the AMO is especially warm and why is it especially warm?
@LT:
See Fig 4 at http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/16/tisdale-the-warming-of-the-global-oceans-are-manmade-greenhouse-gases-important-or-impotent/#more-71135
IanM
A couple of days ago I notice the average temperature above 80°N dipped sharply below 0°C. That signalled to me the ice extent upturn probably was beginning.
With more open ocean well above 80°N, with temperatures much colder than average available, the ice extent could rapidly rebound. Nothing new in that; we should expect it. More interesting is the date of the minimum. That seems to have returned to the old average, and suggests the north may be starting on path back from the low ice extent levels of the recent past.
The unusual stormy weather this year makes the anomaly more anomalous, and perhaps less meaningful in terms of global warming. However, we all know warmistas will glom onto anything that supports the cause, regardless of scientific merit.
So. Is there or is there not a direct correlation between the two polar opposites?
Low(est) in the N
High(est) in the S
Thanks
One nice thing about this – I suspect we won’t have to worry about setting a new record minimum for several years. 🙂
James Abbott has shown once again that he has not understood the information provided him. He omits the wind (as posted in my fathers article),and the storm as a cause for reduced ice. Clearly there are “multi-forcing” mechanisms at work and he has been shown this.
I said,
I don’t think anybody has predicted a death spiral already in Antarctica, especially not in winter. Have they?
David said,
Wrong, the climate models did, as well as James Hansen.
Am I wrong, or are you faking it? Show me where “the climate models” or James Hansen predicted there would be “a death spiral already in Antarctica,” especially in winter.
Can anyone point me to a study which shows that sea ice acts as a blanket to prevent the water from cooling off? The water not covered by ice is relatively warm compared to the Arctic temperatures and therefore must warm up the air. Shouldn’t more exposed water allow more heat to escape from the ocean? And what is this amount vs the energy the water receives through solar irradiance?
BA: Quote from Hansen: “If governments keep going the way they are going,” Hansen added, “the planet will reach an ice-free state.” This to me implies, the Antarctic would be completely gone.
Is there a case for treating Arctic ice data not in terms of where the line goes around September, but in terms of “the total area under the curve” for a year? It’s climate change, not monthly change. If there is an omniprescent CO2 direct effect, then one would expect it to operate all year round, making a year-to year comparison more valid than month-by-month in different years. That is, the September method has more liklihood of higher noise than an annual approach. More noise means it’s harder to tease out primary mechanisms.
Mercer, Nature, 1978 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v271/n5643/abs/271321a0.html Cited 500 times.