
4096 4096 pixels on the solar photosphere by the Helioseismic and Magnetic
Imager (background image). We cross correlate wavefield records of temporal length T at points on opposing quadrants (blue with blue or red with red).
From New York University: Researchers create ‘MRI’ of the sun’s interior motions
A team of scientists has created an “MRI” of the Sun’s interior plasma motions, shedding light on how it transfers heat from its deep interior to its surface. The result, which appears in the journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, upends our understanding of how heat is transported outwards by the Sun and challenges existing explanations of the formation of sunspots and magnetic field generation.
The Sun’s heat, generated by nuclear fusion in its core, is transported to the surface by convection in the outer third. However, our understanding of this process is largely theoretical—the Sun is opaque, so convection cannot be directly observed. As a result, theories largely rest on what we know about fluid flow and then applying them to the Sun, which is primarily composed of hydrogen, helium, and plasma.
Developing a more precise grasp of convection is vital to comprehending a range of phenomena, including the formation of sunspots, which have a lower temperature than the rest of the Sun’s surface, and the Sun’s magnetic field, which is created by its interior plasma motions.
In order to develop their “MRI” of the Sun’s plasma flows, the researchers examined high-resolution images of the Sun’s surface taken by the Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager (HMI) onboard NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory. Using a 16-million pixel camera, HMI measures motions on the Sun’s surface caused by convection.
Once the scientists captured the precise movement waves on the Sun’s surface, they were able to calculate its unseen plasma motions. This procedure is not unlike measuring the strength and direction of an ocean’s current by monitoring the time it takes a swimmer to move across the water—currents moving against the swimmer will result in slower times while those going in the same direction will produce faster times, with stronger and weaker currents enhancing or diminishing the impact on the swimmer.
What they found significantly departed from existing theory–specifically, the speed of the Sun’s plasma motions were approximately 100 times slower than scientists had previously projected.
“Our current theoretical understanding of magnetic field generation in the Sun relies on these motions being of a certain magnitude,” explained Shravan Hanasoge, an associate research scholar in geosciences at Princeton University and a visiting scholar at NYU’s Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences. “These convective motions are currently believed to prop up large-scale circulations in the outer third of the Sun that generate magnetic fields.”
“However, our results suggest that convective motions in the Sun are nearly 100 times smaller than these current theoretical expectations,” continued Hanasoge, also a postdoctoral fellow at the Max Plank Institute in Katlenburg-Lindau, Germany. “If these motions are indeed that slow in the Sun, then the most widely accepted theory concerning the generation of solar magnetic field is broken, leaving us with no compelling theory to explain its generation of magnetic fields and the need to overhaul our understanding of the physics of the Sun’s interior.”
The study’s other co-authors were Thomas Duvall, an astrophysicist at NASA, and Katepalli Sreenivasan, University Professor in NYU’s Department of Physics and Courant Institute. Sreenivasan is also Senior Vice Provost for Science and Technology for the Global Network University at NYU and Provost of Polytechnic Institute of NYU.
===========================================================
ANOMALOUSLY WEAK SOLAR CONVECTION
Shravan M. Hanasoge y and Thomas L. Duvall, Jr. z and Katepalli R. Sreenivasan
Convection in the solar interior is thought to comprise structures on a spectrum of scales. This conclusion emerges from phenomenological studies and numerical simulations, though neither covers the proper range of dynamical parameters of solar convection. Here, we analyze observations of the wavefield in the solar photosphere using techniques of time-distance helioseismology to image flows in the solar interior. We downsample and synthesize 900 billion wave-feld observations to produce 3 billion cross-correlations, which we average and fit, measuring 5 million wave travel times. Using these travel times, we deduce the underlying flow systems and study their statistics to bound convective velocity magnitudes in the solar interior, as a function of depth and spherical-harmonic degree l. Within the wavenumber band l < 60, Convective velocities are 20-100 times weaker than current theoretical estimates. This suggests the prevalence of a different paradigm of turbulence from that predicted by existing models, prompting the question: what mechanism transports the heat ux of a solar luminosity outwards? Advection is dominated by Coriolis forces for wavenumbers l< 60, with Rossby numbers smaller than ~10-2 at r/Rθ= 0.96, suggesting that the Sun may be a much faster rotator than previously thought, and that large-scale convection may be quasi-geostrophic. The fact that iso-rotation contours in the Sun are not co-aligned with the axis of rotation suggests the presence of a latitudinal entropy gradient.
paper here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.3173.pdf
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Keep up the good work Leif,
This electric universe theory is right up there along side the Jedi force that binds all things in the universe together, well in terms of a scientific theory at least, people have their beliefs and if you believe in something…
All the best 🙂
pkatt says:
July 11, 2012 at 1:30 am
Wow I never thought I would see WUWT squash a debate in favor of settled science and consensus. Dark Matter is GIGO to make a theory work, there are quite a few of us who think so
Before Dark Matter was discovered, settled science and consensus said there was no Dark Matter. New observations eventually forced an overthrow of that settled science. You may wish to update your ‘thinking’ on this.
“the gamma rays have their wavelengths stretched and are now observed as microwaves…. Well wouldn’t that disprove the constant of the speed of light ultimately??
No, the expansion of space does not have the speed limit of light speed. That would be effective for movements through space. But space itself can [and does, as observed] expand without speed limit. The galaxies are not rushing away from us through space. They are not moving through space at all, but are basically sitting still while space is stretching around them.
and no one ever explains how that black hole, supposed to be sucking everything in, creates and releases gamma rays from solid matter, much like a recycle plant.
This has been explained many times: the strong gravity of the black hole attracts matter which forms an ‘accretion’ disk around the hole. The matter is compressed and heated to high temperatures. Hot enough bodies shines in all wavelengths, X-rays, gamma rays, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disc
http://www.tgdaily.com/space-features/59481-hubble-directly-observes-a-black-hole-accretion-disk
Everything is relative to parameters. If I am walking on a planet I perceive it like a solid relative to my size (dimension), but if relative to the milky way it has smaller size (dimension) than a photon. If I could observe it with such metrics (para: side, meter: measure) I should consider it a moving charge.
MDR: A magnet is caused from alignment of electrons in the atoms of the magnet. This creates a dipole movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet
“A magnet’s magnetic moment (also called magnetic dipole moment and usually denoted μ) is a vector that characterizes the magnet’s overall magnetic properties. For a bar magnet, the direction of the magnetic moment points from the magnet’s south pole to its north pole,[7] and the magnitude relates to how strong and how far apart these poles are. In SI units, the magnetic moment is specified in terms of A•m2.”
So let us find out what a magnetic dipole is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_dipole
“A magnetic dipole is the limit of either a closed loop of electric current or a pair of poles as the dimensions of the source are reduced to zero while keeping the magnetic moment constant. It is a magnetic analogue of the electric dipole, but the analogy is not complete. In particular, a magnetic monopole, the magnetic analogue of an electric charge, has never been observed. Moreover, one form of magnetic dipole moment is associated with a fundamental quantum property, the spin of elementary particles.”
It is the analog of an electric dipole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_dipole
“In physics, the electric dipole moment is a measure of the separation of positive and negative electrical charges in a system of charges, that is, a measure of the charge system’s overall polarity. The SI units are Coulomb-meter (C m). This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization.”
So contrary to what the others here may be telling you without being able to show any proof, it is an electrical caused event. Don’t believe me, read the books and see what ALL the experts say.
Here is your strong force:
“Before the 1970s, physicists were uncertain about the binding mechanism of the atomic nucleus. It was known that the nucleus was composed of protons and neutrons and that protons possessed positive electric charge while neutrons were electrically neutral. However, these facts seemed to contradict one another. By physical understanding at that time, positive charges would repel one another and the nucleus should therefore fly apart. However, this was never observed. New physics was needed to explain this phenomenon.
A stronger attractive force was postulated to explain how the atomic nucleus was bound together despite the protons’ mutual electromagnetic repulsion. This hypothesized force was called the strong force, which was believed to be a fundamental force that acted on the nucleons (the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus). Experiments suggested that this force bound protons and neutrons together with equal strength.[citation needed]
It was later discovered that protons and neutrons were not fundamental particles, but were made up of constituent particles called quarks. The strong attraction between nucleons was the side-effect of a more fundamental force that bound the quarks together in the protons and neutrons. The theory of quantum chromodynamics explains that quarks carry what is called a color charge, although it has no relation to visible color.[3] Quarks with unlike color charge attract one another as a result of the strong interaction, which is mediated by particles called gluons.”
So, we actually find the binding of quarks is due to charge, not some other mysterious force we term Strong Force. Another name for the electrical force. Call it Color Charge if you want, but by any name it is still electric charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_force
Weak isospin (T3) is a property (quantum number) of all particles, which governs how particles interact in the weak interaction.[citation needed] Weak isospin is to the weak interaction what electric charge is to the electromagnetism, and what color charge is to strong interaction.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isospin
“Observation of the light baryons (those made of up, down and strange quarks) lead us to believe that some of these particles are so similar in terms of their strong interactions that they can be treated as different states of the same particle. In the modern understanding of quantum chromodynamics, this is because up and down quarks are very similar in mass, and have the same strong interactions. Particles made of the same numbers of up and down quarks have similar masses and are grouped together. For examples, the particles known as the Delta baryons—baryons of spin 3⁄2 made of a mix of three up and down quarks—are grouped together because they all have nearly the same mass (approximately 1,232 MeV/c2), and interact in nearly the same way.
However, because the up and down quarks have different charges (2⁄3 e and −1⁄3 e respectively), the four Deltas also have different charges (Δ++ (uuu), Δ+ (uud), Δ0 (udd), Δ− (ddd)). These Deltas could be treated as the same particle and the difference in charge being due to the particle being in different states. Isospin was devised as a parallel to spin to associate an isospin projection (denoted I3) to each charged state. Since there were four Deltas, four projections were needed.”
You see, they throw out concepts they really do not understand. In the end as you can see all these things boil down to charge. The electric force. Yes, they try very hard to hide this fact, but every mathmatical formula they use to describe space time or the behavior of objects within space time was derived from electrodynamics.
Gravity is the only force they dont use the word charge in describing how it works, but then again they have no idea how gravity works or what causes it. But we do know that Einstein based his entire theory of space time on the electromagnetic force, hence his theory “On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies.” Today they like to use words that imply non-electrical events, but if you actually read the descriptions of all these forces you see that it all boils down to charge and the difference in charge between two objects. They no longer even know what their own theory was based upon because they have confused the issue over the years to suppress any mention of the electric force, the very thing that is the basis of their theory. Of course they are unable to take out the words charge in their scientific descriptions because charge is what makes the math work, but they don’t mind leaving it out when they try to tell you that earth seems to be the only place electricity occurrs, as if we live on a very special planet. Personally I believe physics works the same everywhere in the universe, not just here and the electrical force is everywhere.
Dark Matter has been observed? Or is it that you can’t explain gravity so you use the term DM to wash it over? The magic dust once again makes an appearance. You say I am unscientific? Hmmm, a massless particle that somehow affects things gravitationally, but we can neither see it or detect it in any way. Convienent. A theory must be falsifiable for it to be a theory.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/archives/davesmith_au08/022708_neverending.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080723darkcurrents.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090827margins.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090313recreations.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090318recreations2.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090415darkpower.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2011/arch11/110218doubt.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/arch10/100618illuminate.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/archives/solar08/021608_dark_inertia_1.htm
@Steven: This issue makes us think, revisit, what the traditional knowledge teach us, and how those traditional “symbols” transmitted by tradition are not just representations but the actual description of how nature works. Its simplicity surprises us and defy us, showing us we are lost in an inextricable entanglement of words powered and sustained by self conceit: A real Babel tower.
Charge spearation is caused by magnetism, are you that far gone?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/natural-disasters/lightning1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin%E2%80%93charge_separation
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111024101450.htm
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6074/1340.abstract
I can seem to find magnetism mentioned nowhere in any of the articles on charge seperation. Perhaps you can help clarify your position with references?
Lief:the gamma rays have their wavelengths stretched and are now observed as microwaves…. Well wouldn’t that disprove the constant of the speed of light ultimately??
No, the expansion of space does not have the speed limit of light speed. That would be effective for movements through space. But space itself can [and does, as observed] expand without speed limit. The galaxies are not rushing away from us through space. They are not moving through space at all, but are basically sitting still while space is stretching around them.
Can you please explain to me what this expanding space is made up of? If it is expanding it is moving, if it is moving it is made up of something similar to particles. SR forbids any particles from traveling faster than c. Are you suggesting that NOTHING expands faster than c and it is this NOTHING that is stretching around us? Of course it must be nothing expanding faster than c, it couldn’t possibly be because your theory has errors in it which require you to postilate that space time is not an aether so is composed of nothing and this nothing expands faster than c and tells mass how to move. Well now, that certainly sounds logical to me, it’s got to be right.
Steven says:
July 11, 2012 at 7:11 am
The theory of quantum chromodynamics explains that quarks carry what is called a color charge, although it has no relation to visible color.[3] Quarks with unlike color charge attract one another as a result of the strong interaction, which is mediated by particles called gluons.”
So, we actually find the binding of quarks is due to charge, not some other mysterious force we term Strong Force. Another name for the electrical force. Call it Color Charge if you want, but by any name it is still electric charge.
You should have taken Anthony’s advice and learned some basic physics. The color charge and isospin have nothing to do with electric charge, that is way they have different names.
Can you please explain to me what this expanding space is made up of? If it is expanding it is moving, if it is moving it is made up of something similar to particles. SR forbids any particles from traveling faster than c.
Space is not made of particles. You are so fond of Wikipedia, so study this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space
@Steven:
What triggered my earlier comment was that you stated upthread that “Without flowing electric current you can produce no magnetic field.” But in the case of a fridge magnet, you quoted Wikipedia and indicated that it “is caused from alignment of electrons in the atoms of the magnet.” which sounds more like a particular arrangement of matter than moving current. The dipole moment associated with this the arrangement, while being *described* as “closed loop of electric current or a pair of poles as the dimensions of the source are reduced to zero”, sounds to me more like a mathematical abstraction than an indication of any real currents flowing. Rather, it sounds to me more like a property of the otherwise inert matter comprising the magnet [atoms aligned in a preferred direction].
So may I challenge further your statement earlier that “Without flowing electric current you can produce no magnetic field.” – In the case of a fridge magnet, let’s assume there are tiny currents flowing, and so with all atoms aligned, and therefore all currents aligned, shouldn’t one be able to detect these electric currents [which I am attempting to picture as a stream of electrons moving throughout the magnet] with a multimeter or something? They do, after all, collectively create a strong enough force to attach the magnet to the fridge.
@pkatt
Leif says (and he is citing others, he did not make this up) “The galaxies are not rushing away from us through space. They are not moving through space at all, but are basically sitting still while space is stretching around them.”
Now imagine having to invent such a fairy tale to explain observations! If space is expanding, then the galaxies are going to expand with them and everything in it, which means everything would look the same, relatively speaking. The alternative is that gravity keeps space-time pulled in around the galaxies preventing nearby space from expanding. In order to overcome this obvious problem, the galaxies are supposed to be ‘not expanding’ while the space between them does. Think about this: if the distance between galaxies is literally increasing, and the speed of light through space is constant, then there must be some additional ‘space’ being inserted between one galaxy and the next.
But they want it both ways: the stretching of light waves is supposed to be taking place in a fixed ‘quantity of space’ that has been stretched ‘longer’. If I stretch a rubber band to be longer, the wave written on it with a pen stretches too. OK, that is the analogy of the stretched space. Introduce a new light wave into that stretched space. Does it have to travel through more total space than before? No. If the analogy is stretched rubber, there is the same amount of rubber as before, just deformed like stretched space-time. But the argument is made that both the space was and continues to stretch, and there there is also literally more space (distance) between the galaxies. Where did that space come from? I thought it was supposed to be the same amount of space ‘stretched’.
The key to popping this ‘inflation’ balloon is the speed of light. When space-time is curved around an object, light travels in a curve, as observed from outside. The speed is constant with reference to the space-time forming that curve. If space-time is compressed by the curve, light slows a little as observed from ‘outside’. If the curvature was expansive not compressive, light still passes through that amount of space time in the same number of clock ticks even though it has been stretched a bit.
Consider: If the distance between two galaxies is increased by inserting ‘more space time’ between them, then a photon would be unaffected. It would just have more distance to travel from one to the next. If space time was stretched, it would take no longer than before because the amount of space time to travel through remained constant as shown by light passing around a curve. In fact you can’t prove from within the universe if the entire thing is not bouncing in an out like an inflating and deflating balloon if space-time itself is being stretched and compressed. We would not notice.
The ‘out’ created by the Standard Modellers is to say that the galaxies are not expanding but space is. This is basically in support of two things: that there is no aether (which is the fundamental point that Einstein was trying to systematically, conclusively show) and that red-shift is caused by movement away from a Big Bang.
Things that will be inexplicable by the Standard Model include
– stars that are older then the big bang (already found when I was young: 15bn years)
– starlight from extremely distant galaxies where the sum of the light-years to get to us plus the age of the stars in that galaxy exceed the big bang’s supposed age (we are probably on the cusp of getting that now)
– conclusive proof that the age of the universe is less than 9 billion years instead of about 13
– a Hubble Constant of about 75 instead of >100 (causes a number of problems)
– The CMB does not reasonably match its expected distribution (already shown to be a problem after much ballyhoo that it was ‘about right’)
Leif’s notes that the convection depth is shallower that previously thought, something he supported. Well the paper above talks about the slow speed of that convection being the foundation of their statement that the observed magnetic field can’t be created by it. I don’t see how that supports any Standard Models of the Sun. The blistering speed at which one deduces the convection depth was over-estimated does not create magnetic fields either.
Steven says:
July 11, 2012 at 7:11 am
So, we actually find the binding of quarks is due to charge, not some other mysterious force we term Strong Force. Another name for the electrical force. Call it Color Charge if you want, but by any name it is still electric charge.
Here is an accessible explanation of color charge http://www.leif.org/EOS/StrongForce.pdf
To prove to us that you at least looked at the text, report back here what the last letter on the last page is.
Lief: “You should have taken Anthony’s advice and learned some basic physics. The color charge and isospin have nothing to do with electric charge, that is way they have different names.”
Did you not read the definitions, shall we go back and highlight the word charge in all the definitions?
It was later discovered that protons and neutrons were not fundamental particles, but were made up of constituent particles called quarks. But you refused to do away with the outdated notion of Strong Force, even though that idea was based on the notion that they were funamental particles. Another error stacked upon another. “However, because the up and down quarks have different charges…” which is why you have different color charges. Now unless you are implying that charge really doesn’t mean charge, you are only contradicting yourself at every turn.
Your example uses the surface of a bollon as an explanation. The surface of a boloon is a material object capable of expansion, of movement. I know what wiki says, i know what SR says, but nowhere does any of these explanation tell me what space time is composed of that enables this stretching or expansion. Certainly it must be composed of something if it can affect light and cause red-shift, and cause galaxies to move with it at a speed greater than c. Yet in no explanation of space time is there any explanation of how this occurs????? It just magically happens without any substance. So somethings (matter) affect nothing (space time) by causing it to curve. Yet space time is composed of nothing which is somehow curved by somethings and then this nothing tells somethings how to move. This nothing is also expanding faster than c, but since it is composed of nothing that is ok, after all, nothing can travel faster than c. Does that about sum up the theory???
Your definitions of Strong Force do not carry any weight. As the history books show:
Before the 1970s, physicists were uncertain about the binding mechanism of the atomic nucleus. It was known that the nucleus was composed of protons and neutrons and that protons possessed positive electric charge while neutrons were electrically neutral. However, these facts seemed to contradict one another. By physical understanding at that time, positive charges would repel one another and the nucleus should therefore fly apart. However, this was never observed. New physics was needed to explain this phenomenon.
A stronger attractive force was postulated to explain how the atomic nucleus was bound together despite the protons’ mutual electromagnetic repulsion. This hypothesized force was called the strong force, which was believed to be a fundamental force that acted on the nucleons (the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus). Experiments suggested that this force bound protons and neutrons together with equal strength.
It was later discovered that protons and neutrons were not fundamental particles, but were made up of constituent particles called quarks.
But you refused to do away with the outdated notion of Strong Force, even though that idea was based on the notion that they were funamental particles. The Strong Force was invented to show how two fundemental particles could stay together because their charges were different. Then when you discover that they are NOT fundemental particles do you disgard the hypothesis that requires them to be fundemental particles to work? No, instead you still insist the Strong Force is at work. You are applying a force “hypothesised on incorrect assumptions” to a situation it was never meant to convey. So please do not try to tell me that a hypothesis founded on an incorrect assumption is a valid hypothosis. My god Lief, you must think people are idiots to belief that drivel. Only someone unable to think for themselves would swallow that hook, line and sinker. A theory based upon an untrue set of facts that still remains the accepted theory. And you wonder why I find fault with it.
@Steven 9:59AM
From Lawrence Berkley Labs:
A. You’re wrong.
B. It is getting off topic, we are talking about solar convection.
C. You are becoming annoying with this argument.
D. You can’t even spell Leif’s name correctly. I’m not going to correct it for you anymore.
So, take a 48 hour time out. This is not a suggestion this time. – Anthony
Steven says:
July 11, 2012 at 9:15 am
Now unless you are implying that charge really doesn’t mean charge, you are only contradicting yourself at every turn.
It does not always mean ‘electric’ charge, just like in http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/dutch-news/prosecution-to-appeal-karadzic-genocide-charge-decision_237346.html ‘charge’ does not mean electric charge.
Certainly it must be composed of something if it can affect light and cause red-shift, and cause galaxies to move with it at a speed greater than c.
It is not composed of anything material. The red shift comes about because the distance a light wave will have to travel to reach us increases with the expansion. The galaxies do not move at all through space.
composed of nothing that is ok, after all, nothing can travel faster than c. Does that about sum up the theory
It may sum up your meager understanding, but is not reality. From your favorite cut-n-paste place [with the exception of the EU universe] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light
Crispin in Waterloo says:
July 11, 2012 at 8:49 am
Now imagine having to invent such a fairy tale to explain observations! If space is expanding, then the galaxies are going to expand with them and everything in it, which means everything would look the same, relatively speaking.
The galaxies themselves and stars and planets are kept together by gravity and do not expand. Only when the distances become large enough [gravity diminishes with distance] does the expansion begin to overpower gravity.
if the distance between galaxies is literally increasing, and the speed of light through space is constant, then there must be some additional ‘space’ being inserted between one galaxy and the next.
The basic idea is correct, except it has nothing to do with the speed of light and you should replace ‘galaxy’ by ‘galaxy cluster’.
Consider: If the distance between two galaxies is increased by inserting ‘more space time’ between them, then a photon would be unaffected. It would just have more distance to travel from one to the next.
The number of light waves would not change as you note, but remember that the wavelength is the distance travelled divided by the number of waves, so if the distance increases, so does the wavelength, hence the red shift.
Things that will be inexplicable by the Standard Model include
– stars that are older then the big bang (already found when I was young: 15bn years)
No such stars exist. As I say you are decades behind.
– The CMB does not reasonably match its expected distribution (already shown to be a problem after much ballyhoo that it was ‘about right’)
I have already shown you that the CMB matches very closely what we expect [and actually predict].
Leif’s notes that the convection depth is shallower that previously thought, something he supported.
It would help if you could read. I supported the dynamo to be located shallower. The depth of the convection zone is a well-observed quantity [even by one of the authors] and has not been challenged by the paper. The paper is worded poorly/wrongly [see my email exchange with one of the authors upthread]. What the paper showed was the lack of large-scale structure. That does not prevent a shallow dynamo.
I almost forgot to add:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction
“The strong attraction between nucleons was the side-effect of a more fundamental force that bound the quarks together in the protons and neutrons.”
Yet you still to this day want to tell me that the Strong Force is a fundamental force, even though it is nothing more than a side-effect of a fundamental force. A side-effect of Color charge, which we have discovered is nothing more than the interaction of charged particles in a 4 dipole configuration.
But oh yes, now we will define charge in a non-science way so we can avoid having to come to the correct interpretation, even though the definition includes positive and negative charges. So are they positively or negatively charging the guy with genocide? No, I am not even going to go there, that line of argument is ridiculous even for you.
Your problem with FTL is based upon your misconception of it. The theory only says that matter (mass) cannot be accelerated to the speed of c. You then claim the photon has no mass, which is an Electromagnetic force by the way. How many other EM forces travel at c or faster than c, perhaps gravity???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon
“A tachyon (play /ˈtæki.ɒn/) or tachyonic particle is a hypothetical particle that always moves faster than light. The word comes from the Greek: ταχύς or tachys, meaning “swift, quick, fast, rapid”, and was coined by Gerald Feinberg in a 1967 paper.[1] Feinberg proposed that tachyonic particles could be quanta of a quantum field with negative squared mass. However, it was soon realized that excitations of such imaginary mass fields do not in fact propagate faster than light[2], but instead represent an instability known as tachyon condensation. Nevertheless, they are still commonly known as “tachyons”[3], and have come to play an important role in modern physics.[4]
Most physicists think that faster-than-light particles cannot exist because they are not consistent with the known laws of physics.[4][5] If such particles did exist, they could be used to build a tachyonic antitelephone and send signals faster than light, which (according to special relativity) would lead to violations of causality.[5] Potentially consistent theories that allow faster-than-light particles include those that break Lorentz invariance, the symmetry underlying special relativity, so that the speed of light is not a barrier.
Despite theoretical arguments against the existence of faster-than-light particles, experiments have been conducted to search for them. No compelling evidence for their existence had been found.”
So you are going to use a hypothetical particle to prove a hypothetical theory? Nothing new in your world I know. In your world theory is fact and data is meant to be twisted to fit the theory.
Let us discuss red-shift.
The universe is 99% plasma and plasma has been shown in the laboratory to produce red-shift. Your theory is becoming unraveled. Laboratory proof versus pure speculation, hmm, which to believe?
http://vixra.org/pdf/1105.0010v1.pdf
[snip – come back in 48 hours]
As for spelling his name incorrectly i appologize, it was not intentional, just habit to put i before e.
@Leif
” The paper is worded poorly/wrongly [see my email exchange with one of the authors upthread]. What the paper showed was the lack of large-scale structure. That does not prevent a shallow dynamo.”
Do you agree with the authors that the convection speed is too slow to be able to generate the magnetic profile we see at the surface of the sun and beyond?
Steven says:
July 11, 2012 at 11:09 am
I have no problem at all with the Standard measurement of luminosity:
So once again we find that it is the electrical aspect which you are measuring.
I did not ask for your lack of problem. You have repeatedly [and now again] claimed that EU ‘theory’ explains the luminosity, and that EU ‘calculates all the numbers I need’, so I ask for the umpteenth time to explain how that calculation goes.
Crispin in Waterloo says:
July 11, 2012 at 11:46 am
Do you agree with the authors that the convection speed is too slow to be able to generate the magnetic profile we see at the surface of the sun and beyond?
You still quote is wrong [possibly because the authors expressed it clumsily]. What they found [and I don’t disagree with that] was that the supposed large-scale circulation cells [e.g. the infamous ‘conveyor’ belt] move much too slowly to power the solar cycle. This is what several people [Schatten, Brandenburg, Hathaway, myself, and others] have been suggesting for several years now [I have given links to some of those] and has been somewhat verified by the failure of the deep conveyor belt models to correctly predict the low cycle 24. There are no such problems with a shallow dynamo.
Much earlier in this thread Lief Svalgaard posted a comment including the phrase:-” –you are pontificating on things you don`t understand” in reply to another poster. Even earlier,(8:58 july 9th responding to Ian Cairns) he himself provided a classic example of this very activity when describing in some detail events that were neither observed or measured that supposedly occurred at the Big Bang. Unless he has inside information (from God ?), or was there to witness the event he is pontificating. Should we not try to understand more fully our own solar system before trying to account for the Universe? Good science observes a phenomenom carefully and then tries to understand it, the explanation surely comes only after the phenomenom has been observed. Nobody could have witnessed the BB,IT IS SPECULATIVE IN THE EXTREME. Many very intelligent people believe the BB to be as nearly as possible proven, it isn`t, it is simply a possibilty if you interpret red shift, CMB etc as the majority of academia do today. Intellectual honesty should make this abundantly clear.
Nonetheless this thread was originally about convection in the sun and its supposed effect on the generation of its magnetic field. Engineering,via satelites such as SOHO, TRACE, SDO etc using solid science, have given us some outstanding views of the solar surface activity, much of which is difficult to explain without invoking electrical activity. Michael Mozina for one has put in a tremendous amount of work as a private individual in producing his website:- http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com, and draws some very interesting conclusions. The SDO online photo galleries from NASA are stunning. Surely these provide more interesting material, namely real results and geniune observations,for meaningful scientific discussion rather than pontificating about some imaginary Big Bang?
FYI, plasma redshift, a “prediction” of many Plasma Cosmology/Electric Universe models has now been confirmed in the lab.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0030402608000089
These results do fit with a number of “tired light” proposals including one by Lyndon Ashmore who cites that Chen paper and explains how it relates to his ‘New Tired Light’ theory and cosmology.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1105.0010v1.pdf
Herman Holushko has published C# code using these plasma redshift/tired light models to explain why light of various wavelengths is broadened and why they arrive at different times.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1203.0062v1.pdf
The ‘prediction’ that wavelengths travel at different speeds though the plasmas of spacetime have also been confirmed in recent years.
http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8364
Peter Willey says:
Michael Mozina for one has put in a tremendous amount of work as a private individual in producing his website:- http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com, and draws some very interesting conclusions. The SDO online photo galleries from NASA are stunning. Surely these provide more interesting material, namely real results and geniune observations,for meaningful scientific discussion rather than pontificating about some imaginary Big Bang?
Interesting material. It is quite feasible as every other known object in the solar system has a semi-solid or solid mantle surrounding it’s core and the Sun is cooler the deeper one peers into the sunspots. Sounds to me like he needs to obtain images for the same area over repeated flares to see if the same structure is observed, not just within minutes, but over months. A body of plasma responds more slowly than the charge equalization within it, so a two minute formation is interesting, but not overwhelming. But it is definitely worth following up on.
Michael Mozina says:
July 12, 2012 at 8:19 am
These results do fit with a number of “tired light” proposals including one by Lyndon Ashmore who cites that Chen paper and explains how it relates to his ‘New Tired Light’ theory and cosmology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light :
“tired light has not been supported by observational tests and has lately been consigned to consideration only in the fringes of astrophysics.”
Steven says:
July 14, 2012 at 6:18 pm
It is quite feasible as every other known object in the solar system has a semi-solid or solid mantle surrounding it’s core and the Sun is cooler the deeper one peers into the sunspots.
Assuming that be ‘every other known object’ you mean ‘every object’ including the Sun, your statement is overwhelming falsified by observations of sound waves inside the Sun. http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/Helioseismology.shtml