As I put out my flag this morning (seen at left), I recalled this interesting story in the WSJ the other day about vexillology – the study of flags, and a controversy over an image carved into a Revolutionary War era gunpowder horn. Seeing that the 4th and gunpowder and flags go together, it seemed like a natural topic to share. There’s poll at the WSJ also on the topic. Looking at the image on the powder horn in that article, I think he was representing the 8 cardinal compass points, rather than stars. What do you think?
From the Wall Street Journal
Seeing Stars: Innkeeper’s View of Powder Horn Carving Unfurls Flag Debate
History Buffs Disagree on When Stars Showed Up With Stripes; Some Wave Off Claim
Barnabas Webb has been dead for nearly two centuries. But the Revolutionary War soldier—or, at least, the powder horn he used to carry gunpowder—is vexing the world of vexillologists, or flag researchers.
A Virginia innkeeper and history buff claims the engravings decorating Mr. Webb’s powder horn, which depict the end of the Siege of Boston in March 1776, contain the earliest known representation of the stars and stripes together on an American flag.
Image: Catherine MillarInnkeeper John Millar flies this modern interpretation of the horn’s flag.
If correct, it could mean that Colonial Americans united stars and stripes more than a year before the 1777 Flag Act declared that the national flag should contain 13 stripes and 13 stars, potentially rewriting the early history of the Grand Old Flag.
But the claim is raising red flags among some historians of early America, who call it a star-spangled misstep.
John Millar, a Williamsburg, Va., innkeeper by day and architectural and tall-ships historian in his spare time, was perusing an issue of Early American Life, a magazine for enthusiasts of the era, last summer when he came across a photo of an 18th-century powder horn. Studying the images on the powder horn, which bears the date March 17-April 1776, he says he made a surprising discovery: A fingernail-size flag he believes depicts stars.
Balderdash, says Dave Martucci, an early American flag expert and past president of the North American Vexillological Association. “This is not a stars-and-stripes flag,” says Mr. Martucci, a 59-year-old tax assessor and flag appraiser from Washington, Maine. Stars were “in the future.”
Read the entire article and view the image: Seeing Stars: Innkeeper’s View of Powder Horn Carving Unfurls Flag Debate
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As I said earlier, I think he was representing the 8 cardinal compass points, rather than stars. See this image to understand what I’m seeing:
The image on the powder horn (at left) doesn’t contain the 5 extra stars on the flag they have created (at right), only the 8 dots:
Note: I don’t know if you all have the same video advertisement displayed as I do, but it looks worth trying today:
polistra says:
July 4, 2012 at 8:51 am
Was this revolution necessary? The only objective answer is No.
Canada stuck with the Crown, US created a new system.
After 250 years, the only real difference between Canada and US is that Canada’s governmental system is more adaptable, more responsive to the needs of the people.
1776 was a bad idea, and we should undo it.
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Grrrrrrrrrr….
You are welcome to live in Canada…leave my country alone!
theduke says:
July 4, 2012 at 9:28 am
polistra says:
July 4, 2012 at 8:51 am
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Oh, shut up.
REPLY: I’d have to agree, arguing about undoing the event that produced the greatest nation in the history of man (on the Fourth of July no less) is probably in the top three stupidest comments ever witnessed here. And, I don’t mind insulting polistra, since he’s just another phantom commenter with an anonymous opinion. – Anthony
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It could be VERY embarrassing for polistra to get his but* whipped by a girl!
An interesting flag! Mind you, if you removed those stars, took away the horizontal stripes to the right, & added a diagonal red cross to what was left it would look much beter indeed!! Damn you Colonials & your wretched Boston Tea Party! It used to be ALL ours!!!:-))
These kinds of discussions always lead rants about who has a right to a given piece of dirt. There are those who consistently claim; “We got here first”. I suspect the Neanderthal complained in a like manner about Cro-Magnan.
It’s never about who’s first. It’s about: “Can you hold what you’ve got?” Merry old England could not. Nor could the Romans or any other power.
Old Ben Franklin remarked on this in regards to the US Constitution, and I’m afraid we’ve not taken his warning seriously enough.
There are very many people (foreign and domestic) who are on a mission to supplant this “Republic” with something else.
Can we “hold what we’ve got” against this onslaught?
There is still a far greater number of Canadians immigrating to the US (and therefore a much larger percentage of population) than the other way around. Nothing against Canada, I love visiting there (I live an hour or so from the border), but I would still rather live here.
Happy fourth….but if you chaps ever change your mind,
“America will be welcomed back into the empire and New York renamed Chiddingfold on Sea.”
Mark Wagner says: “To rebut your opinion, the “stars” on the powderhorn are between the compass points, not on them. Also, one of the other flags on the horn shows only 4 compass points, which would be strange as they would be the midpoints (NE, SE, NW, SW). Another shows 8 lines, but only 4 stars.”
Yes. There are five obvious flags, each drawn to various levels of detail. The British flag is obviously depicted as the major element, similar to other flags whose origin is the Union Jack, with either four or eight squiggles in that device. Obviously, the squiggle count is not intended as an accurate depiction. The largest, most detailed flag definitely shows thirteen stripes. Would the star count necessarily also be thirteen? I’m not so sure. It could be eight of something else, but we’ll never know for sure. Definitely not compass points, since the simpler flags show an X pattern, not a + pattern. Mark is right.
Curiousgeorge says:
July 4, 2012 at 10:11 am
Can we “hold what we’ve got” against this onslaught?
————————– IMO
Only if REAL competition against liberal / socialist news agencies exists.
Only if Education of children is put back in the hands OF the People.
REPLY: I’d have to agree, arguing about undoing the event that produced the greatest nation in the history of man (on the Fourth of July no less) is probably in the top three stupidest comments ever witnessed here
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GUFFAW!
I challenge you to produce two additional comments as dumb as that.
REPLY: I was being kind. – Anthony
GUFFAW!
I challenge you to produce two additional comments as dumb as that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Unless one or both came from me, in which case…. never mind.
007 on July 4, 2012 at 9:31 am said:
The guy was doodling, what’s the big fuss?”
I agree completely. Every square on that horn is bisected once or twice, or thrice. It’s like my doodles in boring meetings. First I sketch a square, then i put some perspective lines on it to make a cube. Then I draw circles on the faces. Then maybe i put a cross on the circle, or a vine snaking through it. Just keep adding on until I tire of it and move on. I imagine sitting around a boring camp in 1776 with a nice white shiny powder horn and pocket knife was just as inspirational as a boring meeting with nice white clean pad of paper and a pencil in 2012.
Vexillogists should leet this bee.
There are 13 stripes on the powder horn’s flag, if you also assume the lines as stripes The 5 stars on the cross were likely omitted because it was impractical to represent them on such thinly scribed lines.
GUFFAW!
I challenge you to produce two additional comments as dumb as that.
REPLY: I was being kind. – Anthony
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I caught Anthony exagerating! Are there points for that?
On a more serious note, polistra’s comment hardly needs rebuttal, but I will say this. It is common here in Canada for those of a certain political bent to belittle, complain about, mock, and rage at, the United States of America. When my patience wears thin, I always ask the same question. Can you name one other country in the world that, over the last 150 years or so, you would be comfortable sharing 4500 kilometers of undefended border with?
The ensuing silence is in general my reward.
Happy birthday USofA. Canada is a great country, in part because we grew up in a great neighbourhood. (we’ll consign that little spat in 1812 to the past).
A note from the motherland.
You (that is us until 1783) were surrounded by the frogs until we (that includes you) bashed them in the 1750s and 1760s. All we asked was you pay a tiny bit of the expense of the war, a very fair price for not having to parler franglais and be hemmed in by New France. And then what happens? The ultimate desecration – you start throwing away perfectly good tea!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nouvelle-France_map-en.svg
Sacre bleu, as you would now be shouting at the boules World Series, munching your salted snail snacks.
I look at the overall illustration and see what appears to be a depiction, symbolic of course, of the siege and the city. You see churches, perhaps public buildings, a windmill, and most importantly, water and possibly a waterfront. The flag in question appears to be coming out of an island with cannon on it. It could represent a regimental flag of some kind of a regiment that was positioned on the island. Perhaps one of the experts should check a map of Boston Harbor to see if there is an island on it that approximates that particular shape and if so, who was inhabiting the island during the siege.
Yes, this amateur eye thinks it’s a depiction of the siege.
Wish the English revolution had reached England…
Robin Melville:
The cross of St. Patrick was added to the Union Flag in 1800 when Ireland became part of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Ireland.
The flag under discussion was from 1777.
cui bono: LOL. As a descendant of Englishmen who drove the French out of Acadia (Nova Scotia) and were probably Loyalists, I appreciate that. However there were other issues: the motherland acting more like the Vaterland and, of course, taxation without representation, which simply means the imposition of second class citizenry.
‘I always ask the same question. Can you name one other country in the world that, over the last 150 years or so, you would be comfortable sharing 4500 kilometers of undefended border with?’
France? Good food, wine etc, and a confidence that they will run up the white flag if any unpleasantries ensued.
[SNIP: Jim, let’s not go there, OK? -REP]
I have, after careful consideration, concluded that the United States and Canada are polar opposites. Given the main focus of this blog, I shall use as my solitary example, the matter of hockey sticks.
In Canada, hockey sticks are mostly made of wood.
In the United States, hockey sticks are made of data.
In Canada, we break millions of hockey sticks each year playing games with them.
In the United States, hockey sticks get bigger and uglier each year, and are big business.
In Canada, when we play with our hockey sticks, we complain it is too cold.
In the United States, when you pull out your hockey sticks, the complaint seems to be about being too warm.
As a final note, we in Canada are conservationists, and worry that we are breaking too many hockey sticks which may result in a shortage. As a consequence, we have assigned retired statisticians and economists and university professors to breaking your hockey sticks instead of ours. Thanks to the gift of the internet from Al Gore, they don’t even have to leave the country to do it.
It looks like a flag to me. The closest thing the the colonies had to a standard flag was ships taking the British red naval ensign and sewing white stripes on them. Are the “dots” doodle versions of stars? Could be.
I’d be curious to know what colony he was from. The staff goes down to what looks like an island with what might be cannon. Could the “island” be South Carolina?
I’d also like to see the other sides of the horn.
polistra says:
July 4, 2012 at 8:51 am
“Was this revolution necessary? ……..”
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Can you argue this point ?
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson
I doubt the compass quarters idea. Every visible flag exhibits the same “canton” on one side, in one case in the lower right. I suspect that the carver was more familiar with the flags and ensigns used by the Bristish and used those as a model.
As regards the constitution, Jefferson thought that the country would need a revolution every generation to preserve what they had worked and bled to develop.