A response to Dr. Paul Bain's use of 'denier' in the scientific literature

Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.

Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by  Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University,  commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely.  – Anthony

Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:

The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.

This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?

For shame.

Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.

By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.

Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.

The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!

Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.

There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.

Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.

This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.

The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.

These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.

The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

In particular, I quote:

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a

friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.

I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government

advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether

drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it

would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a

result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re

being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.

Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?

And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!

Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.

Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.

For shame.

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Myrrh
June 27, 2012 3:37 pm

[snip – I’ve had enough of your posts Myrrh, Dr. Brown puts his name to his opinion and you denigrate/snipe from the shadows.
Put your name to your words like Dr. Brown, or take a hike. Be as upset as you wish, but I’m damn tired of this petty crap – Anthony]

Greg House
June 27, 2012 4:13 pm

Robert Brown says:
June 27, 2012 at 9:48 am
nobody said a word about “7 degrees” in some unspecified temperature scale…
=======================================================
Right, it is 7 degrees Kelvin.

Greg House
June 27, 2012 4:25 pm

Smokey says:
June 27, 2012 at 9:49 am
Greg House says:
“…1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules…”
Greg has given that incorrect ratio several times now. If he can’t get that right…
============================================================
No, I wrote: “CO2 in it’s usual concentration 300-400 ppm (ca. 1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules)“. 300-400 ppm means “1 molecule CO2 from 2500-3333 air molecules” and my 3000 is within this range.
1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules is equal to the 333ppm concentration. 333ppm concentration was measured 3 years before the IPCC was established (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_data_mlo.pdf), so my “1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules” is a correct ratio.

Gary Hladik
June 27, 2012 4:36 pm

Greg House says (June 27, 2012 at 2:35 pm): “May I humbly assume that a zero effect of CO2 would have also zero temperature-related positive feedbacks?”
That ship has sailed; see the numerous examples given upthread.
“Gary, you are not really going to talk about feedbacks of an unproven effect, are you?”
You mean hypothesized feedbacks from a proven effect, right? 🙂 The answer is no. I was just pointing out the futility of repeating an experiment with a known result that would not address the major component of CAGW alarmism.

Greg House
June 27, 2012 4:44 pm

davidmhoffer says:
June 27, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Gail Combs;
The experiment you seek has been done: http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm
…So, does Heinz Hug’s experiment show what the order of magnitude of warming from CO2 would be? No it does not.
========================================================
Exactly, thank you. But the Al Gore’s did. But it was a fake. This fact is very revealing.

Myrrh
June 27, 2012 4:53 pm

[snip]

June 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Greg House,
OK, thanx for explaining. The current ratio is ≈2550.

Gary Hladik
June 27, 2012 5:03 pm

Gail Combs says (June 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm): “I am well aware of that. However if that first step has not been demonstrated then you are only talking theoretical physics, much of which is over the heads of most people.”
Point taken. I suppose the “theoretical physics” of the internal combustion engine is also over their heads, but is made “real” by everyday experience with motor vehicles. In that sense Al Gore has already made the so-called “greenhouse effect” real to much of the public, even though his “experiment” is incorrect and (for other reasons) his alarmism is unjustified. Unfortunately the only result of doing the experiment correctly would be to confirm the correct part of Al’s case while leaving the more dubious parts unaddressed.

Myrrh
June 27, 2012 5:16 pm

[snip. Invalid email address. ~dbs, mod.]

David A. Evans
June 27, 2012 5:31 pm

Robert Brown says:
June 27, 2012 at 8:03 am
No sir, you are neither ass nor fool but I must disagree with you. Temperature is NOT a good metric of anything when used alone.
I am writing at about 01:20 and the temperature is much higher than it was during the day, (by about 5°C,) but it feels much cooler. The reason is that humidity has fallen, (probably the reason the temperature has risen, latent heat of condensation and all that.)
The temperature differential from ground level to 1m above has risen from 1°C to 5°C.
No dataset takes enthalpy into consideration and you talk of enthalpy as if it were an irrelevance.
Humidity is neither constant nor consistent.and without that measure you surely know what temperature means, sweet F.A..
DaveE.

Gail Combs
June 27, 2012 6:12 pm

Gary Hladik says:
June 27, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Point taken. I suppose the “theoretical physics” of the internal combustion engine is also over their heads, but is made “real” by everyday experience with motor vehicles. In that sense Al Gore has already made the so-called “greenhouse effect” real to much of the public, even though his “experiment” is incorrect and (for other reasons) his alarmism is unjustified. Unfortunately the only result of doing the experiment correctly would be to confirm the correct part of Al’s case while leaving the more dubious parts unaddressed.
_____________________________
Most people in the USA have had little science beyond one year of general science in high school. (Something I have a real problem with BTW) So yes most people haven’t the foggiest notion of how an internal combustion engine works much less a wall switch. ~ You would not believe the number of electric fences I have had to rewire for friends because the do not understand what an electrical ground is. Unfortunately these are the same people who vote and are taken in by the Media scare tactics. They would not know the scientific method if it bite them on the nose.
This lack of even the most basic science training, the complexity of the climate and a known 60 to 80 year cycle made CAGW the perfect scam.
The only think that has saved our rears so far was the economic collapse came a bit too early. The Copenhagen Climate Coup and the implementation of the World Trade Organization Agreememt on Ag were supposed to come before they crashed the financial markets and US economy but the timing was off.
The WTO Agreement on Ag was slated to be in force by 2007 but US farmers threw a hissy fit and slowed it down by a few years.

davidmhoffer
June 27, 2012 6:44 pm

TimC says:
June 27, 2012 at 3:10 pm
: please rest assured that I never have, and never in future will, read either of the works you suggest – Sun Tzu‘s (well BCE) work
>>>>>
How unfortunate. Sun Tzu’s remarkable work is still required reading in military and officer training academies world wide. NATO predicated their cold war strategy to a large extent on Sun Tzu’s treatise on the use of spies, disinformation campaigns, and double agents. The American invasion of Iraq in the second Iraq war was absolutely text book Sun Tzu. The decision of the United States to remain on the sidelines in WWII until the last possible moment was also heavily influenced by Sun Tzu.
You can dismiss Sun Tzu out of hand for being thousands of years old, or you can actually read it and discover for yourself that Sun Tzu influenced the manner in which wars are fought and won, with an emphasis on actual fighting as a last resort, throughout history, and to this very day.
As for the guy with the mad ravings…. those mad ravings influenced the course of history, and resulted in a war in which 40 million people died. It matters not if he was mad, nor if he wrote it in jail. What matters is it was effective then, and the strategies espoused are still being pursued, in many cases succesfully, today.
Keep your friends close. But know thine enemy and keep him closer.

Gary Hladik
June 27, 2012 7:07 pm

Gail Combs says (June 27, 2012 at 6:12 pm): “This lack of even the most basic science training, the complexity of the climate and a known 60 to 80 year cycle made CAGW the perfect scam.”
Widespread ignorance of economics and history doesn’t help. Even if this particular snake oil sales pitch eventually fails, there are plenty more ahead.
“The only think that has saved our rears so far was the economic collapse came a bit too early.”
Hooray for recessions!
Oh, wait…

TimC
June 28, 2012 12:55 am

: you have moved the goalposts. Are you talking of military warfare (“required reading in military and officer training academies”) or political “warfare” (“people out there that are lobbying very hard for some things that will be very bad for humanity”) – you should make up your mind. Either way, it’s a bizarre (and, I would suggest, rather dangerous) extrapolation of the situation in hand, of scientists having a spat over how they describe the other side to a scientific controversy.
And I’ve had enough of this nonsense – I will now leave this particular “field of battle” to you (I hope that I am a man of peace).

Gail Combs
June 28, 2012 4:12 am

Gary Hladik says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:07 pm
…..Widespread ignorance of economics and history doesn’t help. Even if this particular snake oil sales pitch eventually fails, there are plenty more ahead….
________________________________________
Why do you think the first step of the Fabians was to change our education system?

…..John Dewey who is usually characterized as the father of progressive education. Yet the change of the teaching of reading is probably Dewey’s greatest contribution to the tranformation of American education from an academically oriented process to a social one.
The progressives were a new breed of educator that came on the scene around the turn of the century….. Indeed, men like G. Stanley Hall, James McKeen Cattell, Charles Judd, James Earl Russell traveled to Germany to study the new psychology under Prof. Wilhelm Wundt at the University of Leipzig. It was these men who later imposed the new psychology on American education and transformed it permanently from its academic function to one dedicated to behavioral change.
Dewey’s philosophy had evolved from Hegelian idealism to socialist materialism, and the purpose of the school was to show how education could be changed to produce little socialists and collectivists instead of little capitalists and individualists. It was expected that these little socialists, when they became voting adults, would dutifully change the American economic system into a socialist one.
In order to do so he analyzed the traditional curriculum that sustained the capitalist, individualistic system and found what he believed was the sustaining linchpin — that is, the key element that held the entire system together: high literacy. To Dewey, the greatest obstacle to socialism was the private mind that seeks knowledge in order to exercise its own private judgment and intellectual authority. High literacy gave the individual the means to seek knowledge independently. It gave individuals the means to stand on their own two feet and think for themselves. This was detrimental to the “social spirit” needed to bring about a collectivist society…..
http://www.ordination.org/dumbing_down.htm

And the Fabians have done a mighty fine job of it too.

No teacher, but every textbook, left behind
………….How about self-policing by the education, uh, professionals who select textbooks for public schools? (By the way, they use the word adopt instead of buy, presumably because of the latter’s implication of tawdry commercialism.) These professionals have their own organization: NASTA, which stands for, one of its web pages tells us, National Association of School Textbook Administrattors [sic]. Apparently the “administrattors” carried over to their web site the skills they had finely honed in reviewing textbooks for half-billion dollar adoptions….. NASTA’s level of concern over textbook errors is almost below sea level….
The US Department of Education, Jimmy Carter’s gift to the teachers’ unions, seems even less interested in textbook errors than is NASTA. The DOE Web site is enormous but neither it nor other sites linked to it mention textbook critics like Hubisz or Bennetta. There are 34 mentions of the Hubisz’ sponsor, the Packard Foundation, none of them about his study of science textbooks. If the Department of Education is on top of the textbook problem, it is only to cover it up….
…the quality of the twelve most popular science textbooks for middle-schoolers is so low, Hubisz concluded, that none had an acceptable level of accuracy….
For 10 years, William Schmidt, a statistics professor at Michigan State University, has looked at how U.S. students stack up against students in other countries in math and science.
“In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we’re around average, and by 12th-grade, we’re at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa.”
The American School Board Journal also cites Schmidt, who blames U.S. textbooks, “… because the content of textbooks in different countries correlates very closely to what children learn in those countries…” In Schmidt’s own words, U.S. “books just do not hold up by international standards.”
…An exasperated William Bennetta explained why so many teachers accept inferior textbooks from these publishers, “[T]he major schoolbook companies… have long recognized that the teacher corps in America includes some desperate dumbbells, and the companies have learned to produce books that the dumbbells will like.” Alistair B. Fraser, a professor of meteorology who runs web sites exposing bad science in textbooks, concluded bleakly, “Apparently, most teachers believe everything they teach.”…..
It may be that our culture has already dropped below the critical mass necessary to transmit learning, reason, traditions, and values from one generation to the next

The above article notes there are plenty of good text books available but are passed over for the glitzy 20 pound monstrosities with lots of white space and a high dollar tag. … ,i>”there are thousands of books available to schools for free, over the “interNET.””
A darn good reason to home school.

June 28, 2012 4:35 am

Thank you Dr. Brown for a very interesting and enlightening discussion. As a Chemistry/Chem E Major I was able to follow a good deal of it, I think, but it shows there is a lot left to learn.
On the topic of Thorium Fission Reactors, the reason the Thorium cycle is proliferation-resistant, is that the U-233 the process generates is mixed with U-232 which is incredibly difficult to separate, as compared to U235 from U238 in standard enrichment. Additionally, U232 is a hard gamma emitter which is hard on personnel, handling and sensitive electronics.
The real reason that is it resistant though is the marginal cost involved. The small amounts of plutonium produced by the process are easily dwarfed by the old method of enrichment/processing used by the Manhattan Project, so anyone seeking a weapons program is much likely to do something of that sort, or centrifuges etc, as compared to operating Thorium plants. Lastly, U233 bombs apparently were not particularly impressive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-233

ferdberple
June 28, 2012 5:08 am

Gail Combs says:
June 28, 2012 at 4:12 am
A darn good reason to home school.
========
We home schooled our children. It took 3 hours a day for 3 months of the year to complete all the course material for each year. That is how much slack there is in the system, which explains why the kids are so bored. It is designed to go at the pace of the dumbest kid.
When our kids entered the schools system in grades 8 and 10 they were both straight A students in their first year. However, each year they were in the public system they learned sufficient bad habits that their marks dropped steadily. The power of the education system in action.

June 28, 2012 5:08 am

Gail Combs says (June 27, 2012 at 6:12 pm): “This lack of even the most basic science training
Henry says
well, to be honest, I have to flunk you all, even all those currently writing on this current blog…
Not one of you even tried to answer the questions of my test.
I have to flunk Dr. Brown for the 2nd time. He still does not get it. Like Ira Glickstein that he quotes, he keeps sitting in the same box and he does not understand why I keep telling him to step outside the box. It is no use sitting and looking only at earth’s emission spectrum.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
The truth is that although ozone is ” termed” a greenhouse gas, it has strong absorption in the UV region, deflecting almost 15-20% of all incoming sunlight, just on its own. You can see that if you study the sun’s emssion spectrum. I would think that anyone here should have been able to easily figure out that an increase in ozone would have a net cooling effect, rather than a net warming effect. Makes you think, does it not, about what exactly is wrong in the GH science and where.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok

davidmhoffer
June 28, 2012 9:05 am

TimC says:
June 28, 2012 at 12:55 am
: you have moved the goalposts. Are you talking of military warfare (“required reading in military and officer training academies”) or political “warfare” (“people out there that are lobbying very hard for some things that will be very bad for humanity”)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
REPLY: If you had actually studied warfare, as I have, you would understand that war is a spectrum of activity in which the “military” part is a tiny, tiny, portion.
TimC;
– you should make up your mind. Either way, it’s a bizarre (and, I would suggest, rather dangerous) extrapolation of the situation in hand, of scientists having a spat over how they describe the other side to a scientific controversy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
REPLY: The Holocaust started out with a very similar “spat”. That is why it is important to protest vehemently the tactics being used such as the “d” word. The descent from civilization to horror, when such tactics go unopposed is terrifyingly swift and far easier to intiate than you seem to understand. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” ~ Edmund Burke
TimC;
And I’ve had enough of this nonsense – I will now leave this particular “field of battle” to you (I hope that I am a man of peace).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
REPLY: Well that is the 2nd time you have made that promise, yet here you are. If you truly believe yourself to be a “man of peace” then I suggest you consider this quote from “Epitoma Rei Militaris,” by Vegetius, who most likely studied Sun Tzu. “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.” Loosely translated it means ” If you want peace, prepare for war”. Peace doesn’t happen by accident, it happens due to vigilance, preparedness, and opposing every inch of the battlefield lest the other side take a mile. Dehumanizing the “other side” by labeling them “d_niers” may seem trivial to you, but it is the inch that invites the taking of a mile, and hence deserves protest.

June 28, 2012 9:29 am

davidmhoffer says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/22/a-response-to-dr-paul-bains-use-of-denier-in-scientific-literature/#comment-1020370
Henry says
I’ve studied\ all pictures/films available of world war 2
and I agree with you
The thing I will never forget is the one Hungarian Jew inmate surviving Auschwitz trying to explain why he carried out the orders to take his own (HCN gassed) people to the furnace….
I think when poverty/starvation/hunger knocks at your door,
civilization (and civilized behaviour) is only paperthin?
yet, you too, davidmhoffer, still flunked my test,
so sorry
I said: I am the teacher – and you simply skipped the test….

June 28, 2012 11:45 am

HenryP says:
June 27, 2012 at 1:57 am
Henry asks
0) how much is the cooling caused by CO2 by increasing vegetation?
1) do you think ozone is a GHG? Why?
2) did you know that there are quite a number of human activities that produce ozone?
3) do you think the net effect of more ozone due to human activities is that of warming or cooling?
4) do you think that we should do something to limit the amount of ozone emissions?
Answers by R. Brown
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/22/a-response-to-dr-paul-bains-use-of-denier-in-scientific-literature/#comment-1019299
Henry says
Sorry, Dr Brown, I have to flunk you. Ozone has strong absorption at 10-11 um.

Afraid not Henry, it has a strong absorption between 1000-1100 cm-1, perhaps you misread the graph? That works out to about 9.5 microns.

davidmhoffer
June 28, 2012 12:01 pm

Henry asks
0) how much is the cooling caused by CO2 by increasing vegetation?
The value is debatable but insignificant as the total amount of energy consumed by photosynthesis is insignificant by comparison to both insolation and net forcing by CO2 (sorry, don’t have a cite handy, but this was one of my pet theories when I first started getting interested in climate, and I soon disabused myself of the notion). In addition, increased vegetation results in increased decomposition of that same vegetation at a later point in time, so at time scales relevant to climate, the net effect is, for practical purposes, zero. In terms of changes to evapotranspiration and other secondary effects of increased vegetative cover including albedo, there MAY be significant effects, but I’ve never looked into these myself.
1) do you think ozone is a GHG? Why?
I think that ozone has an absorption band in the IR spectrum, and so by the loosest defintion of the term, is a GHG. However, quantifying the effects of ozone increases or decreases must take into account distribution in the atmosphere, competition with other gases that have overlapping absorption spectra, and feedbacks. The technical answer is yes, the real question is what is the order of magnitude.
2) did you know that there are quite a number of human activities that produce ozone?
Yup. Photocopiers. Power transformers. There’s a couple of examples. Again, the question is order of magnitude and distribution. At high altitudes, ozone is both destroyed and created on a constant basis by insolation at various parts of the UV spectrum interacting with existing oxygen and ozone. The magnitude so dwarfs human activity that we’d just be a rounding error. Closer to earth surface where UV has been filtered out to the point of being inconsequential, natural processes such as lightning would most likely prevail, but I will admit to not having attempted to quantify it.
3) do you think the net effect of more ozone due to human activities is that of warming or cooling?
I think I don’t know, and I think nobody else knows either. The complexity of the atmospheric processes is well beyond our comprehension at this point. If by do I THINK as in my OPINION, my opinion is that the net effect, positive or negative, is negligible.
4) do you think that we should do something to limit the amount of ozone emissions?
From a climate impact perspective, I see no evidence to suggest that such action is any more warranted than limiting CO2 emissions. From a health perspective, you’d be best off to ask a health professional with the appropriate expertise.
Do I pass?

June 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Phil. says
Afraid not Henry, it has a strong absorption between 1000-1100 cm-1, perhaps you misread the graph? That works out to about 9.5 microns.
Henry says
I quoted from memory and may have been confused by the wavelength numbers being similar to 10 and 11. I believe you if you say it is 9.5. I am not going to argue with you.

June 28, 2012 12:37 pm

davidmhoffer says
Do I pass?
Henry says
I am going to sleep now but I from the looks of it it is definitely more than 50%. That is a pass.
We will talk again…

Gail Combs
June 28, 2012 12:56 pm

davidmhoffer says: June 28, 2012 at 9:05 am
…..The Holocaust started out with a very similar “spat”. That is why it is important to protest vehemently the tactics being used such as the “d” word. The descent from civilization to horror, when such tactics go unopposed is terrifyingly swift and far easier to intiate than you seem to understand. “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” ~ Edmund Burke
….. Dehumanizing the “other side” by labeling them “d_niers” may seem trivial to you, but it is the inch that invites the taking of a mile, and hence deserves protest.
_______________________________
You are correct. It is typical of the “Herd” to single out and punish/kill/drive away anyone who is different. Having spent time in a wheelchair in grade school I can tell you that it is not only the kids that can be nasty and cruel. The biggest ring leader in my case was the ^%$%^ Art Teacher!
You are also correct that you have to stop the situation at once or it will only get worse. Bullies, what we are dealing with here, only get braver when they are unopposed. Given sufficient followers they will get very nasty and very dangerous. We have already seen indications this could turn very nasty. PETA and their affiliate The Animal Defense League show how extreme activists can become dangerous.

And Greenpeace threatened unspecified reprisals against unbelievers, saying:

If you’re one of those who have spent their lives undermining progressive climate legislation, bankrolling junk science, fueling spurious debates around false solutions, and cattle-prodding democratically-elected governments into submission, then hear this:
We know who you are. We know where you live. We know where you work.
And we be many, but you be few.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/05/22/editorializing/

Until you have been on the receiving end of a nasty mob, you have no idea of how quickly humans can turn into unthinking animals.