
Tom Nelson spots this droll duo:
The Policy Lass is sick of arguing with stupid people. Anyone who has been to WUWT and the comment threads there will empathise. It is all a hopeless morass of nonsense; it cannot be fixed, only risen above. And indeed (as I’ve tried to tell them) the science just goes on without them. But I’ll still visit occaisionally in case there is anyone there who wants to listen.
Arguing With Stupid People | The Policy Lass
Research shows that stupid people — people who truly are ignorant — tend to think they know far more than they do. They are also more likely to think informed people know less than they do. It’s the D-K effect and it’s rampant at both CA and WUWT and Climate Etc. If you’ve ever haunted those sites, you know what I’m talking about.
I’m always tempted to go to there and look for ‘teh stupid’ so I can mock it, but as the Twain quote says, they just bring you down to their level. Admittedly, there is a certain pleasure in mocking teh stupid, but life is short and its unnaturally warm outside. Time’s a wasting.
I get such a kick out this, especially since Connolley has shown that he’d rather just dismiss everyone with a wave of the condescending hand. At least he doesn’t call for our houses to be burned, though I’ll bet he secretly likes the idea.
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Rob Dekker says:
April 23, 2012 at 3:09 am
Ken, why don’t you present us ONE scientific paper from the self-proclaimed skeptics “camp” as you call it which shows AGW theory to be false. Just ONE…
________________________________
ROTFLMAO… You must be very new to the debate. 900+ Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skeptic Arguments Against ACC/AGW Alarm
Connolley is a big proponent of the “going Emeritus” rhetorical strategy. So, when an eminent scientist, who might not have worked in atmospheric sciences but has loads of experience with data handling, computer models, etc as well as practical experience with the “sociology of science” like the corrupting influence of huge flows of grant money for example, cries foul over outrageous AGW predictions, William jumps in and…calls names. The reasoning of aforementioned famous scientist can be swept under the rug since he has “gone emeritus”. From his lofty perch as a has-been (or maybe never-was) he is lord and arbiter of the scientific universe and scourge of the accomplished elite.
He has, of late, taken this prediliction to the extreme by attacking Aristotle as a dummy. I guess it makes sense, he is probably the most emeritus of the emeriti. So William feels not the least bit silly attacking Aristotle for not having all of physics figured out 2400 years ago (and with no measuring instruments lying about).
William’s internet pal Annan suffers from the same problem of ego inflation. His web site features a recent attack on prominent scientists who dare to not agree with Connolley and Annan. I’m sure such bravado gives a frisson to the acolytes, but to the huge majority of sane technically-educated readers it confirms the bankruptcy of the view they push.
@- Gail Combs says: April 23, 2012 at 10:22 am
“ROTFLMAO… You must be very new to the debate. 900+ Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skeptic Arguments Against ACC/AGW Alarm”
And if you think poptech’s list really provides ‘support’ for arguments against AGW theory then I can only assume the DK effect is working…
Pick three and show how they ‘support’ skepticism of AGW.
The guy still has a big section on the existence and magnitude of the MWP when such data just indicate that climate sensitivity may be larger than current estimates.
(the warmer, more globally synchronous the MWP the higher climate sensitivity must be.)
@wmc
yet more condescending hand waving,must have be painfull watching the gravy train pass you by.
izen says:
“the warmer, more globally synchronous the MWP the higher climate sensitivity must be.”
Thanx for your opinion. But there are more credible explanations, as Prof Richard Lindzen has pointed out.
[SNIP: Dr. Connolley, you’ve taken a lot of flack here and allowing you to respond is fair, but you may not abuse other commenters with this sort of language. Kindly resubmit without the abuse. -REP]
Gail , pick one.
@- Smokey – Re:- climate sensitivity
“But there are more credible explanations, as Prof Richard Lindzen has pointed out.”
Have you got a link ? I have yet to see any explanation from Lindzen of the contradiction in his description of climate sensitivity being small – or negative at present, but large for glacial/interstadel transitions and the MWP?
@-Smokey says: April 23, 2012 at 4:35 am
“AGW is a conjecture; just the first step in the discovery of scientific truth. But it is only a conjecture, because it is not testable or falsifiable. If it were testable and falsifiable it would become a scientific hypothesis – but still not a “theory”. To be a theory, it must have at least one non-trivial datum point, and it must be able to make consistent, accurate predictions.”
Not historically accurate.
AGW was a conjecture when proposed by Arrhenius around 1900 and a hypothesis when re-formulated by Callender in the 1930s. It took all the known data on energy flows and climate, modeled the outcome and made the novel prediction that if human emissions of CO2 raised the atmospheric levels then that would cause a warming of the climate.
Quite when AGW became a theory is open to interpretation. Perhaps in the late 1950s when the inability of the oceans to absorb the extra CO2,(Revelle) the measured rise,(Keeling) and the accurate calculation/measurement of how energy transfers within an atmosphere with increasing CO2 were made.(Plass)
Or perhaps you would hold out for the confirmation of a non-trivial valid datum like the predictions made in the 1981 paper by Hansen et al –
Summary. The global temperature rose by 0.20C between the middle 1960’s and
1980, yielding a warming of 0.4°C in the past century. This temperature increase is
consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect due to measured increases of
atmospheric carbon dioxide. Variations of volcanic aerosols and possibly solar
luminosity appear to be primary causes of observed fluctuations about the mean trend
of increasing temperature. It is shown that the anthropogenic carbon dioxide warming
should emerge from the noise level of natural climate variability by the end of the
century, and there is a high probability of warming in the 1980’s. Potential effects on
climate in the 21st century include the creation of drought-prone regions in North
America and central Asia as part of a shifting of climatic zones, erosion of the West
Antarctic ice sheet with a consequent worldwide rise in sea level, and opening of the
fabled Northwest Passage.
http://thedgw.org/definitionsOut/..%5Cdocs%5CHansen_climate_impact_of_increasing_co2.pdf
Or perhaps you prefer the direct measurement of the changing energy flows with the altered spectrum seen in satellite data and the altered energy seen in the down-welling LW radiation from the BSRN.
I am sure that you could contrapt a version of the AGW theory that is unfalsifiable, but that would be your version, it is … better to engage with the version that is in common use amongst the vast majority of the scientifically informed. The examples I give above are just some of the novel predictions made by the original AGW hypotheis that have provided non-trivial validating datum points.
I see you have made another error of projection in your last paragraph …
“Once you understand that, the whole ANTI – AGW scare becomes a risible fiction, promoted only by those who financially benefit from it, and the mindless lemmings who follow their leaders’ instructions.”
Fixed it for you! -grin-
wmconnolley says:> SNIP:
Ha ha, so much for “no censorship”. But I do have to thank you for reminding me that your pledges are worthless.
> Kindly resubmit without the abuse. -REP
Hypocrite. Just examine the content free twaddle there is up above.
[REPLY: Dr. Connolley, it is always a temptation to let a commenter choke on his own bile. I have snipped a number of commenters who were abusive toward you, and I’ve done you a favor by not allowing you to poison your own case with gratuitous insult. Present your response without it. -REP]
@ur momisuglyizen:”(the warmer, more globally synchronous the MWP the higher climate sensitivity must be.)”
Isn’t that only true if you accept the premise that CO2 concentration fluctuations drive global average temperature anomalies, rather than the other way around?
After all, isn’t it possible for the MWP to happen without being driven by CO2?
@ur momisugly wmconnolley:”You’re not competent to evaluate any of the science, so how do you know what is valid or not?”
How did you decide that you were competent?
@izen:”. It took all the known data on energy flows and climate, modeled the outcome and made the novel prediction that if human emissions of CO2 raised the atmospheric levels then that would cause a warming of the climate.”
So would a falsification be increasing CO2 emissions, but a global average temperature anomaly that was not increasing as much?
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1998/to:2012/plot/esrl-co2/from:1998/to:2012/normalise
If that *isn’t* a falsification, can you state what would be? Are there any observations that are *not* consistent with your hypothesis that you would not argue some ad hoc special pleading for?
wmconnolley says:
April 23, 2012 at 11:59 am
I think this post suggests Mr Connolley is getting riled, no?
and then
wmconnolley says:
April 23, 2012 at 1:00 pm
”…pledges are worthless, etc..’
My goodness – someone has rattled your cage! And, for the record, content free twaddle without abuse is acceptable because we all have to learn sometime (cue song..LOL.). Abusive content is futile and merely illustrates the incompetence of the writer.
To our wonderful mods (and Anthony, of course) – is there any way to partially snip and enable a flavour of ‘bad’ posts to peek through. It’s just that, in the context of WMC’s drollness, and his clear loss of cool and ‘face’ – wouldn’t a ‘flavour’ be enough to reveal his true idiosyncratic colours to the rest of us?
just askin….
Oh, this is rich: Billy Connolley is sniveling because his comment was snipped for violating site policy.
Earth to Connolley: censoring every scientific comment skeptical of CAGW on Wikipedia like you did for years is not the same thing as keeping your comments within policy guidelines.
And responding by writing: “Hypocrite. Just examine the content free twaddle there is up above” might be enough to get someone else’s comment snipped. But you apparently get kid glove treatment because the mods know you will scream like a spoiled child. Just like you did here. It is obvious that you are still trying to get your comment snipped, so you can play the martyr. So who is the true hypocrite? Just look in the mirror, Billy.
. . .
krischel says:
“After all, isn’t it possible for the MWP to happen without being driven by CO2?”
That appears to be the case during the MWP, and the RWP, and the Minoan WP, and the Holocene Optimum, etc.
izen also tries to argue that there is an AGW “theory”. Nice try, izen, but a major fail. Scientific theories make consistent, accurate predictions, while the AGW conjecture has been consistently wrong.
izen wears me out posting his repeatedly debunked nonsense about rising sea levels and the rest of it. Whenever I post verifiable evidence that refutes alarmist nonsense, someone like izen comes back and repeats their globaloney as if it hasn’t been debunked by empirical evidence. Stuck on stupid doesn’t even begin to describe that kind of religious pseudo-science belief system.
izen did ask for a Lindzen reference, even though he muddied the waters by injecting a sensitivity comment that I never made. Even so, here is Lindzen’s straightforward explanation:
Assuming that CO2 caused the MWP is the same old argumentum ad ignorantium: “Since I can’t think of any other cause besides CO2, then CO2 must be the cause.” Truly an argument from ignorance.
I tried taking this discussion back to the “Policy Lass” thread but it only took a couple of comments to earn the “Moderators” displeasure.
I can’t imagine what a clueless, humble camel can say that is too dangerous for William Connolley’s flock to hear.
That said, I am miffed with Anthony Watts. We need Connolley here. His scientific arguments provide a beautiful contrast with some of the hard scientists on this site.
REPLY: You’ve got the wrong idea, Connelley wasn’t dis-invited, I just said he’d had no reason to comment anymore since he views us all as “hopelessly stupid” – Anthony
@-Smokey
“Assuming that CO2 caused the MWP is the same old argumentum ad ignorantium: “Since I can’t think of any other cause besides CO2, then CO2 must be the cause.” Truly an argument from ignorance.”
It certainly is ignorance, we know that the MWP was not caused by an increase in CO2 because the C14 dating correction curve shows that CO2levels, and solar activity did not alter significantly over that period.
But warming of more than a few decimal points for more than a decade requires a source of energy, a climate forcing. You can not warm the climate without an energy imbalance. Lindzen’s claim that-
“Recent work suggests that this variability is enough to account for all climate change since the 19th Century.” would require links to good science before its anything more than a fringe opinion.
@-krischel Re- link to temp from 1998…
“If that *isn’t* a falsification, can you state what would be? Are there any observations that are *not* consistent with your hypothesis that you would not argue some ad hoc special pleading for?
Not long enough for a 0.14degC/decade to be detectable above the climate ‘noise’. Especially if you cherry pick the start point as the warmest El Nino in the record.
Yes, or course there are observations that would falsify, or at the very least cast doubt on AGW, if the climate returned to 1980s temperature levels, the ocean heat content and sea level started falling as fast as they have increased over the next decade then I would look for additional processes that were negating the CO2 energy imbalance measured by satellite and BSRN.
What observations would YOU find persuasive of a real and significant climate effect from CO2 – or are you entirely resistant to evidence?
@izen: “Not long enough for a 0.14degC/decade to be detectable above the climate ‘noise’. ”
So if we found any other historical period, that was longer than my 1998-2012 period, where CO2 continued to rise, but global average temperature remained mostly flat or dropped, would *that* be a falsification?
Do you accept that we see this in the ice core record with CO2 lagging temperature changes, or do you have another ad hoc special pleading?
“What observations would YOU find persuasive of a real and significant climate effect from CO2”
Well, first off, it would have been much more persuasive if the ice core records always showed global average temps lagging CO2 rather than the other way around. But more importantly, what would be persuasive to me would be a complete list of necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statements, and a concerted effort to *find* those observations in either the proxy record, the thermometer record, or in future observations. One can become a believer in psychics if you walk into Madame Zoorik’s tent, and she tells you both your life’s story and your future with uncanny accuracy – but should I be convinced by observing that? Should I simply accept the evidence of her prognostications coming true as proof that she has psychic powers?
Imagine your question as, “what observations would YOU find persuasive of a real and significant climate effect from natural variation?” If I were to put it in terms of falsifiability, what observations could I have that would show that there is no such thing as natural climate change? Perhaps a paleo record that never changes? Perhaps a thermometer record that never changes? Of course it is *trivial* for us to falsify that hypothesis, and we generally consider natural climate change the null hypothesis.
@izen: “we know that the MWP was not caused by an increase in CO2 because the C14 dating correction curve shows that CO2levels, and solar activity did not alter significantly over that period.”
Accuracy of paleo records aside, what makes you think that the MWP could only be caused by CO2 or solar activity? Have you given any thought, to say, ocean circulation patterns, or cosmic ray influences on cloud albedo, or even just variation in cloud albedo? Is your base assumption that outside of the forcings you can imagine, that there are no other causes of natural climate change?
@- krischel says: April 24, 2012 at 8:34 am
“Accuracy of paleo records aside, what makes you think that the MWP could only be caused by CO2 or solar activity? Have you given any thought, to say, ocean circulation patterns, or cosmic ray influences on cloud albedo, or even just variation in cloud albedo? Is your base assumption that outside of the forcings you can imagine, that there are no other causes of natural climate change?”
What makes you think I attribute the MWP (whatever its magnitude or synchronocity) to solar or CO2 changes?
I suspect the source of your confusion is in your misunderstanding of the phrase ‘natural climate change’
Its a description, NOT an explanation.
Climate changes, and it does so as the result of a physical process. all climate change is ‘natural’ as it is an effect with a cause. the only alternative would be supernatural climate change, perhaps the result of your psychic Madame Zoorik or the intervention of the ‘intelligent designer’.
Yes, I have given some thought to ocean circulation patterns, or cosmic ray influences on cloud albedo, or even just variation in cloud albedo. As have the scientific community.
To qualify as a cause any physical process must change the energy balance of the climate. But the problem with invoking any of these speculative unknown alternative causes is that they ALL have to satisfy the LAW of themodynamics. Just what causes cloud albedo changes that affect the energy balance, retaining energy at night but reflecting sunlight, would constrain the amount of forcing it could provide. That again requires some estimate of climate sensitivity to any source of energy imbalance to derive the amount of climate change it would cause.
Cosmic ray in fluence has two counts against it. there is a clear temperature trend when GCR levels have shown negligable variation. There is no evidence of significant climate change during the Lachamps PME 40,000 years ago when a collapse of the geomagnetic field allowed a very large increase in GCRs to occur as seen in the Be10 record in ice cores, but with no associated significant climate change.
IF you are using ‘natural’ in the sense of not human caused then you STILL need a non-human cause for the climate variation. Its a pretty poor ‘null hypothesis’ that assumes that some unspecified and unknown cause is more credible than a measured, quantified and consistant explanation which just happens to invoke a human source for the change in energy imbalance.
izen:
Lindzen is right. The oceans hold immense amounts of energy and, therefore, small changes in their distribution of energy may be observed as large changes in global temperature. This is an empirical fact which is observed, for example as ENSO.
We cannot rule out the possibility that ocean variations are entirely responsible for observed global temperature variations such as the MWP and LIA unless and until we gain some basic understanding of how and why effects such as ENSO, PDO and AMO occur.
Meanwhile, the only evidence we have concerning the effect of atmospheric CO2 concentration on global temperature is that this effect is so small that it cannot be discerned. This does not disprove the possibility that this is a non-trivial effect, but there is no evidence – none, zilch, nada – that it is non-trivial.
Hence, there are at least two possibilities pertaining to the cause(s) of the MWP and LIA, and neither of them can be disproved. One of these two (i.e. warming from ocean variation) is observed to have a be a significant and measured effect. The other (i.e. warming from atmospheric CO2 concentration change) has not been observed although radiative theory implies it probably has has some effect on global temperature.
That which is observed exists, but that which is not observed can only be said to possibly exist.
So, I write to offer some friendly advice before you continue this conversation concerning the (non) indication of the magnitude of climate sensitivity to CO2 provided by the MWP; i.e.
It is better to be thought a fool than to say something which proves you are a fool.
Richard