Under the radar – the NAS Report

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Under the radar, and un-noticed by many climate scientists, there was a recent study by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), commissioned by the US Government, regarding climate change. Here is the remit under which they were supposed to operate:

Specifically, our charge was

1. To identify the principal premises on which our current understanding of the question [of the climate effects of CO2] is based,

2. To assess quantitatively the adequacy and uncertainty of our knowledge of these factors and processes, and

3. To summarize in concise and objective terms our best present understanding of the carbon dioxide/climate issue for the benefit of policymakers.

Now, that all sounds quite reasonable. In fact, if we knew the answers to those questions, we’d be a long ways ahead of where we are now.

Figure 1. The new Cray supercomputer called “Gaea”, which was recently installed at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. It will be used to run climate models.

But as it turned out, being AGW supporting climate scientists, the NAS study group decided that they knew better. They decided that to answer the actual question they had been asked would be too difficult, that it would take too long.

Now that’s OK. Sometimes scientists are asked for stuff that might take a decade to figure out. And that’s just what they should have told their political masters, can’t do it, takes too long. But noooo … they knew better, so they decided that instead, they should answer a different question entirely. After listing the reasons that it was too hard to answer the questions they were actually asked, they say (emphasis mine):

A complete assessment of all the issues will be a long and difficult task.

It seemed feasible, however, to start with a single basic question:  If we were indeed certain that atmospheric carbon dioxide would increase on a known schedule, how well could we project the climatic consequences?

Oooookaaaay … I guess that’s now the modern post-normal science method. First, you assume that there will be “climatic consequences” from increasing CO2. Then you see if you can “project the consequences”.

They are right that it is easier to do that than to actually establish IF there will be climatic consequences. It makes it so much simpler if you just assume that CO2 drives the climate. Once you have the answer, the questions get much easier …

However, they did at least try to answer their own question. And what are their findings? Well, they started out with this:

We estimate the most probable global warming for a doubling of CO2 to be near 3’C with a probable error of ± 1.5°C.

No surprise there. They point out that this estimate, of course, comes from climate models. Surprisingly, however, they have no question and are in no mystery about whether climate models are tuned or not. They say (emphasis mine):

Since individual clouds are below the grid scale of the general circulation models, ways must be found to relate the total cloud amount in a grid box to the grid-point variables. Existing parameterizations of cloud amounts in general circulation models are physically very crude. When empirical adjustments of parameters are made to achieve verisimilitude, the model may appear to be validated against the present climate. But such tuning by itself does not guarantee that the response of clouds to a change in the CO2 concentration is also tuned. It must thus be emphasized that the modeling of clouds is one of the weakest links in the general circulation modeling efforts.

Modeling of clouds is one of the weakest links … can’t disagree with that.

So what is the current state of play regarding the climate feedback? The authors say that the positive water vapor feedback overrules any possible negative feedbacks:

We have examined with care ail known negative feedback mechanisms, such as increases in low or middle cloud amount, and have concluded that the oversimplifications and inaccuracies in the models are not likely to have vitiated the principal conclusion that there will be appreciable warming. The known negative feedback mechanisms can reduce the warming, but they do not appear to be so strong as the positive moisture feedback.

However, as has been the case for years, when you get to the actual section of the report where they discuss the clouds (the main negative feedback), the report merely reiterates that the clouds are poorly understood and poorly represented … how does that work, that they are sure the net feedback is positive, but they don’t understand and can only poorly represent the negative feedbacks? They say, for example:

How important the overall cloud effects are is, however, an extremely difficult question to answer. The cloud distribution is a product of the entire climate system, in which many other feedbacks are involved. Trustworthy answers can be obtained only through comprehensive numerical modeling of the general circulations of the atmosphere and oceans together with validation by comparison of the observed with the model-produced cloud types and amounts.

In other words, they don’t know but they’re sure the net is positive.

Regarding whether the models are able to accurately replicate regional climates, the report says:

At present, we cannot simulate accurately the details of regional climate and thus cannot predict the locations and intensities of regional climate changes with confidence. This situation may be expected to improve gradually as greater scientific understanding is acquired and faster computers are built.

So there you have it, folks. The climate sensitivity is 3°C per doubling of CO2, with an error of about ± 1.5°C. Net feedback is positive, although we don’t understand the clouds. The models are not yet able to simulate regional climates. No surprises in any of that. It’s just what you’d expect a NAS panel to say.

Now, before going forwards, since the NAS report is based on computer models, let me take a slight diversion to list a few facts about computers, which are a long-time fascination of mine. As long as I can remember, I wanted a computer of my own. When I was a little kid I dreamed about having one. I speak a half dozen computer languages reasonably well, and there are more that I’ve forgotten. I wrote my first computer program in 1963.

Watching the changes in computer power has been astounding. In 1979, the fastest computer in the world was the Cray-1 supercomputer. In 1979, a Cray-1 supercomputer, a machine far beyond anything that most scientists might have dreamed of having, had 8 Mb of memory, 10 Gb of hard disk space, and ran at 100 MFLOPS (million floating point operations per second). The computer I’m writing this on has a thousand times the memory, fifty times the disk space, and two hundred times the speed of the Cray-1.

And that’s just my desktop computer. The new NASA climate supercomputer “Gaea” shown in Figure 1 runs two and a half million times as fast as a Cray-1. This means that a one-day run on “Gaea” would take a Cray-1 about seven thousand years to complete …

Now, why is the speed of a Cray-1 computer relevant to the NAS report I quoted from above?

It is relevant because as some of you may have realized, the NAS report I quoted from above is called the “Charney Report“. As far as I know, it was the first official National Academy of Science statement on the CO2 question. And when I said it was a “recent report”, I was thinking about it in historical terms. It was published in 1979.

Here’s the bizarre part, the elephant in the climate science room. The Charney Report could have been written yesterday. AGW supporters are still making exactly the same claims, as if no time had passed at all. For example, AGW supporters are still saying the same thing about the clouds now as they were back in 1979—they admit they don’t understand them, that it’s the biggest problem in the models, but all the same but they’re sure the net feedback is positive. I’m not sure clear that works, but it’s been that way since 1979.

That’s the oddity to me—when you read the Charney Report, it is obvious that almost nothing of significance has changed in the field since 1979. There have been no scientific breakthroughs, no new deep understandings. People are still making the same claims about climate sensitivity, with almost no change in the huge error limits. The range still varies by a factor of three, from about 1.5 to about 4.5°C per doubling of CO2.

Meanwhile, the computer horsepower has increased beyond anyone’s wildest expectations. The size of the climate models has done the same. The climate models of 1979 were thousands of lines of code. The modern models are more like millions of lines of code. Back then it was atmosphere only models with a few layers and large gridcells. Now we have fully coupled ocean-atmosphere-cryosphere-biosphere-lithosphere models, with much smaller gridcells and dozens of both oceanic and atmospheric layers.

And since 1979, an entire climate industry has grown up that has spent millions of human-hours applying that constantly increasing computer horsepower to studying the climate.

And after the millions of hours of human effort, after the millions and millions of dollars gone into research, after all of those million-fold increases in computer speed and size, and after the phenomenal increase in model sophistication and detail … the guesstimated range of climate sensitivity hasn’t narrowed in any significant fashion. It’s still right around 3 ± 1.5°C per double of CO2, just like it was in 1979.

And the same thing is true on most fronts in climate science. We still don’t understand the things that were mysteries a third of a century ago.  After all of the gigantic advances in model speed, size, and detail, we still can say nothing definitive about the clouds. We still don’t have a handle on the net feedback. It’s like the whole realm of climate science got stuck in a 1979 time warp, and has basically gone nowhere since then. The models are thousands of times bigger, and thousands of times faster, and thousands of times more complex, but they are still useless for regional predictions.

How can we understand this stupendous lack of progress, a third of a century of intensive work with very little to show for it?

For me, there is only one answer. The lack of progress means that there is some fundamental misunderstanding at the very base of the modern climate edifice. It means that the underlying paradigm that the whole field is built on must contain some basic and far-reaching theoretical error.

Now we can debate what that fundamental misunderstanding might be.

But I see no other explanation that makes sense. Every other field of science has seen huge advances since 1979. New fields have opened up, old fields have moved ahead. Genomics and nanotechnology and proteomics and optics and carbon chemistry and all the rest, everyone has ridden the computer revolution to heights undreamed of … except climate science.

That’s the elephant in the room—the incredible lack of progress in the field despite a third of a century of intense study.

Now me, I think the fundamental misunderstanding is the idea that the surface air temperature is a linear function of forcing. That’s why it was lethal for the Charney folks to answer the wrong question. They started with the assumption that a change in forcing would change the temperature, and wondered “how well could we project the climatic consequences?”

Once you’ve done that, once you’ve assumed that CO2 is the culprit, you’ve ruled out the understanding of the climate as a heat engine.

Once you’ve done that, you’ve ruled out the idea that like all flow systems, the climate has preferential states, and that it evolves to maximize entropy.

Once you’ve done that, you’ve ruled out all of the various thermostatic and homeostatic climate mechanisms that are operating at a host of spatial and temporal scales.

And as it turns out, once you’ve done that, once you make the assumption that surface temperature is a linear function of forcing, you’ve ruled out any progress in the field until that error is rectified.

But that’s just me. You may have some other explanation for the almost total lack of progress in climate science in the last third of a century, and if so, all cordial comments gladly accepted. Allow me to recommend that your comments be brief, clear and interesting.

w.

PS—Please do not compare this to the lack of progress in something like achieving nuclear fusion. Unlike climate science, that is a practical problem, and a devilishly complex one. The challenge there is to build something never seen in nature—a bottle that can contain the sun here on earth.

Climate, on the other hand, is a theoretical question, not a building challenge.

PPS—Please don’t come in and start off with version number 45,122,164 of the “Willis, you’re an ignorant jerk” meme. I know that. I was born yesterday, and my background music is Tom o’Bedlam’s song:

By a host of furious fancies

Whereof I am commander

With a sword of fire, and a steed of air

Through the universe I wander.

By a ghost of rags and shadows

I summoned am to tourney

Ten leagues beyond the wild world's end

Methinks it is no journey.

So let’s just take my ignorance and my non compos mentation and my general jerkitude as established facts, consider them read into the record, and stick to the science, OK?

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272 Comments
Myrrh
March 9, 2012 5:45 am

Matt G says:
March 8, 2012 at 3:53 pm
The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 am
Tallbloke is right based on observed satellite data with trends in global cloud and temperature. Global cloud levels declined since around 1983 until 2000 then remained stable for a period after, until increasing recently. It is a disgrace that this has been ignored by alarmist climate scientsts recently. This global cloud trend has nothing to do with CO2 and is so obvious it has caused the recent warming.
So if they declined between 1983 and 2000 why didn’t temperatures plummet? We kept being told is was always ‘hotter than’ throughout this 20 odd years?
Tallbloke’s cloud cover increase is when temps began falling – so how is this proof that increased cloud cover is cause of warming?
I do wish y’all would come back to basic trad science..
.. do the models take into consideration why clouds form?
Because, warmer temps cause water to evaporate faster, evaporated fluid liquid water is fluid gas water vapour, (water is always evaporating (triple point), it is lighter than air), warmer water vapour rises and cools in the colder heights condensing out into fluid liquid water or ice – releasing its heat. Carbon dioxide is fully part of this WATER CYCLE that has been completely excised from the ‘energy budget’ the models work to, all pure clean rain is carbonic acid, formed because real gas molecules of water and carbon dioxide have an irresistable attraction to each other.
Clouds don’t just appear magically except in the empty space imaginary ideal gas gravity less atmosphere the models inhabit. They form because water vapour takes away heat from the surface – think deserts, without the water cycle the Earth would be 67°C – 52°C hotter.
The meme ‘greenhouse gases warm the Earth’ is sleight of hand, there never was a pea under the thimble.
What was the rainfall like in the period when there was less cloud cover? Were there more storms getting rid of the heat? Is the more cloud cover since then when temperatures have been dropping because it’s not hot enough to give more precipitation?
The reason there has been no progress as Willis has amusingly shown, is because there is not supposed to be, this is a scientific fraud complete with its own fictional fisics, not real world science.
What has improved in line with technical progress, is the narrative, to practically world domination.

tallbloke
March 9, 2012 6:11 am

Gail Combs says:
March 9, 2012 at 4:07 am
The Earthshine Project: Measuring the earth’s albedo. Latest results
Palle, E.; Montanes Rodriguez, P.; Goode, P. R.; Koonin, S. E.; Qiu, J.
EGS – AGU – EUG Joint Assembly, Abstracts from the meeting held in Nice, France, 6 – 11 April 2003, abstract #7730
ABSTRACT
“….. During the past 4 years, a significant increasing trend in the averaged Earth’s reflectance has been detected in the observational data. More scarce data from 1994 and 1995 allow us to take a longer-term look at the Earth’s albedo variability and the possibility of a response of this parameter to solar activity is discussed. Simultaneously, spectroscopic observations of the earthshine have been carried out at Palomar Observatory. First results and comparison between the spectral and photometric observations are also being presented….” http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003EAEJA…..7730P

Thanks for the reference. After I worked out the URL had been munged by wordpress (too many full stops) I got to the page full of hope, only to be confronted with:
Fulltext Article not available
Shame.

tallbloke
March 9, 2012 8:09 am

Myrrh says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:45 am
Tallbloke’s cloud cover increase is when temps began falling – so how is this proof that increased cloud cover is cause of warming?
I do wish y’all would come back to basic trad science..

The ability to miss the point is strong in some…
The overall cloud feedback is negative as Spencer and Lindzen have shown with real world data. The warming from ~1980 to ~1998 was due to less cloud/more sunshine at the surface. The cooling since is due to cloud increase.

March 9, 2012 9:39 am

tallbloke said March 9, 2012 at 12:27 am

The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Tallbloke referred to Palle’s work on pan evaporation rates, but I have been unable to find anything by him from an admittedly cursory search.

Incorrect. I referred to Palle et al in relation to your mention of the Earthshine measurements, which they carried out. They show that cloud increased after 1997.5, then levelled out. Their data, where it overlaps, is consistent with the findings of the ISCCP data which shows the decrease in low tropical cloud cover from 1983-1998 Matt referred to.
As Soon et al and Doug Proctor’s post at my site I linked earlier show, the correlation between sunshine hours and surface temperature is far closer than that between co2 levels and temperature.
So far as I can see, your contention that cloud cover change can’t be responsible for the late C0th warming is simply unsupported argument by assertion. The relationship between evaporation rates and cloud cover is complex and poorly understood. Yet you seem to be implying that your unspecified reference to an uncited study showing a reduction in evapo transpiration means the cloud cover reduction in the tropics measured and reported by the ISCCP didn’t happen.
Where’s the beef?

My original response was:

The measured decrease in evapotranspiration over the last 50 yr is supposed to be due to an increase in cloud cover. The increase in cloud cover was supposedly confirmed by measurement of earthshine from the moon.

[emphasis added]
Supposed means “believed uncertainly”. I was hoping for an explanation to resolve the apparent contradiction. Your response was pretty unresponsive and definitely rude.
It is not my contention that evapotranspiration rates have decreased over the last half century. I apologise for linking to an “unspecified reference to an uncited study”; here is the full reference where you can pay to read the content I linked to:
The Cause of Decreased Pan Evaporation over the Past 50 Years, Michael L. Roderick and Graham D. Farquhar, Science 15 November 2002: Vol. 298 no. 5597 pp. 1410-1411 DOI: 10.1126/science.1075390-a.
Also note that while your original post to which I responded linked to your website, it timed out as happens quite often when one lives in the nether region of the planet.
I never “[contended] that cloud cover change can’t be responsible for the late C0th warming”, I merely pointed out that this did not appear to be reconcilable with the work of Roderick & Farquhar (not to mention many other agricultural researchers).
Most of the beef are eating the grass I grow, though some of it is in the freezer.

March 9, 2012 9:46 am

Gail Combs said March 9, 2012 at 4:07 am

The Pompous Git, Matt G, Tallbloke
For what it is worth here are the earthshine measurements showing an increase in cloud cover and changes in albedo from 1998 to 2008. http://www.bbso.njit.edu/Research/EarthShine/
The albedo has increased over that decade.

Thanks Gail. Obviously I was misinformed that the earthshine project had confirmed the insolation variation invoked to explain the pan evaporation paradox is incorrect. The period of coverage is far too short and recent.

Gail Combs
March 9, 2012 10:24 am

Tallbloke, on references to: The Earthshine Project: Measuring the earth’s albedo……
I have this PDF: http://bbso.njit.edu/Research/EarthShine/literature/Palle_etal_2006_EOS.pdf
Can Earth’s Albedo and Surface Temperatures Increase Together?
and this research Article: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/aa/2010/963650/
Automated Observations of the Earthshine
and this PDF: http://bbso.njit.edu/Research/EarthShine/literature/Palle_etal_2008_JGR.pdf
Inter-annual variations in Earth’s reflectance 1999-2007.
Hope that helps.

March 9, 2012 10:26 am

Miscellaneous thought #7,853
The pan evaporation decrease is supposedly the result of decreased insolation in turn caused by increased cloud cover, and reduced windspeed. Pan evaporation decrease is observed in both hemispheres of the planet. Global warming OTOH is confined to the Northern hemisphere. WUWT?

Matt G
March 9, 2012 12:14 pm

The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Pan evaporation rates declined from circa 1950 onwards. Changes in global cloud cover from 1983 onward could have had no effect on pan evaporation in the 60s & 70s. Nor could they be responsible for the recent warming that began in the mid-70s. If you wish to argue with these points you will have to do better I’m afraid. Tallbloke referred to Palle’s work on pan evaporation rates, but I have been unable to find anything by him from an admittedly cursory search.
REPLY
The recent warming didn’t start properly until 1980 when just before it had slightly warmed from a much cooler short term period, but was no different from years in the early part of the same decade (1970’s)
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1998/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1998/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1980/to:1998/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1980/to:1998/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1934/to:1980/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1934/to:1980/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1955/normalise
Unfortunately there is generally no satellite data before 1983 representing global cloud changes, so can only compare from 1983 onwards. Global cloud cover changes before 1983 will have had some affect on pan evaporation rates because after these relate to each other in some way. Just that we will never know what global cloud changes were by observations back then because we have no data for it. Therefore global cloud cover in the 1960’s and 1970’s could have had an affect on pan evaporation rates.

Myrrh
March 9, 2012 12:24 pm

tallbloke says:
March 9, 2012 at 8:09 am
Myrrh says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:45 am
Tallbloke’s cloud cover increase is when temps began falling – so how is this proof that increased cloud cover is cause of warming?
I do wish y’all would come back to basic trad science..
The ability to miss the point is strong in some…
Why don’t you try concentrating a little more?
I was addressing this:
=============
Matt G says:
March 8, 2012 at 3:53 pm
The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 am
Tallbloke is right based on observed satellite data with trends in global cloud and temperature. Global cloud levels declined since around 1983 until 2000 then remained stable for a period after, until increasing recently. It is a disgrace that this has been ignored by alarmist climate scientsts recently. This global cloud trend has nothing to do with CO2 and is so obvious it has caused the recent warming.
=============
Saying you were right and ending saying the “it has caused the recent warming” which links to “increasing recently” of cloud cover. So if you have a gripe take it up with him. Or, is mangling my posts to make them appear something they’re not, part of your remit?
The overall cloud feedback is negative as Spencer and Lindzen have shown with real world data. The warming from ~1980 to ~1998 was due to less cloud/more sunshine at the surface. The cooling since is due to cloud increase.
And my point again, less cloud during the warming years could be because they had precipitated out..
Real world physics, not the modelled imaginary atmosphere where clouds magically appear in an ideal gas world without gravity. They do not account for why clouds form.
As I said, they have anyway taken out the Water Cycle all together – they don’t include the whole process! If they did, it would show that the water cycle brings down the temperature by some 52°C to get to the 15°C we have. Imagining what clouds v non clouds means without considering the whole process is meaningless, and any conclusion not based on the reality of the actual process not worth reading.
Anyway, I’m asking, were there more storms during the warmer years? That would seem logical, these clearing the sky of cloud.

Matt G
March 9, 2012 12:36 pm

Gail Combs says:
March 9, 2012 at 4:07 am
For what it is worth here are the earthshine measurements showing an increase in cloud cover and changes in albedo from 1998 to 2008. http://www.bbso.njit.edu/Research/EarthShine/
REPLY
Thankyou, little difference to this data source.
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5246/globaltempvglobalcloudb.png
Both show a stable period early on (first half of 2000’s) before increasing later in the decade and show overall a decadal increase in global cloud cover.

Matt G
March 9, 2012 12:44 pm

Myrrh says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:45 am
I see Tallbloke has answered that question since.

Sparks
March 9, 2012 4:23 pm

255K was the memory of an Amstrad I used to own, before it was sucked into a hypothetical black body when I was trying to understand SB law and pressed the wrong button or something or other.

Gail Combs
March 9, 2012 5:06 pm

The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 am
“……….Anyway, I’m asking, were there more storms during the warmer years? That would seem logical, these clearing the sky of cloud……”
_________________________________________
For what it is worth, in response to Willis’s Thermostat Theory, I took a quick and dirty look at the number of days of rain per month during the summer along the USA eastern seaboard. Florida had about 20 stormy days per month and that decreased to 10 storms per month until you hit about Fayetteville NC. At that point the number of storms became rather sporadic. The average temperature also decreased from normally in the 90F and higher to the 85F to 95F range.
So all things being equal it looks like thunderstorm formation is at least somewhat temperature dependent.
NOAA says it takes three factors:
Moisture
Instability, and
a lifting mechanism.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/tstorms/ingredient.htm

Gail Combs
March 9, 2012 5:12 pm

I should add the Thermostat theory: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/14/the-thermostat-hypothesis/
(The southern US states along the Atlantic are known for their summer afternoon thunderstorms.)

Myrrh
March 9, 2012 5:50 pm

Matt G says:
March 9, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Myrrh says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:45 am
I see Tallbloke has answered that question since.
What any of you see appears to be whatever you want..
You didn’t say what Tallbloke was saying.
Your: “Tallbloke is right based on observed satellite data with trends in global cloud and temperature. Global cloud levels declined since around 1983 until 2000 then remained stable for a period after, until increasing recently. It is a disgrace that this has been ignored by alarmist climate scientsts recently. This global cloud trend has nothing to do with CO2 and is so obvious it has caused the recent warming.”
does not compute. Tallbloke was saying:
“The overall cloud feedback is negative as Spencer and Lindzen have shown with real world data. The warming from ~1980 to ~1998 was due to less cloud/more sunshine at the surface. The cooling since is due to cloud increase.”
You said the recent warming was from cloud increase.

March 9, 2012 6:48 pm

Gail Combs said March 9, 2012 at 5:06 pm

The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 am
“……….Anyway, I’m asking, were there more storms during the warmer years? That would seem logical, these clearing the sky of cloud……”

Actually, I didn’t say that at all; I didn’t even think it! I do think it’s time this “mine of disinformation” called it quits and split some more firewood against the coming winter.

March 9, 2012 8:29 pm

Willis, I acknowledge that I put myself at a disadvantage just giving a brief summary of key points in the paper. It needs reading of the full 6,600 words to gain new insights – if one does not have a closed mind. So I am not offended by comments which are not based on the reading of the document. In contrast, those scientists who have reviewed it are enthusiastic about its content.

March 9, 2012 8:45 pm

Willis – don’t you think it ironic that Anthony Watt’s makes an article out of a post by Theodore in which he writes Still, by 1989, the AGW science did not make sense to me in light that it would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Which I remind everyone – remains in effect to this very day.
Guess what my paper is titled: Radiated Energy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics,

Myrrh
March 9, 2012 9:55 pm

Gail Combs says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:06 pm
The Pompous Git says:
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 am
“……….Anyway, I’m asking, were there more storms during the warmer years? That would seem logical, these clearing the sky of cloud……”
_________________________________________
For what it is worth, in response to Willis’s Thermostat Theory, I took a quick and dirty look at the number of days of rain per month during the summer along the USA eastern seaboard. Florida had about 20 stormy days per month and that decreased to 10 storms per month until you hit about Fayetteville NC. At that point the number of storms became rather sporadic. The average temperature also decreased from normally in the 90F and higher to the 85F to 95F range.
So all things being equal it looks like thunderstorm formation is at least somewhat temperature dependent.
NOAA says it takes three factors:
Moisture
Instability, and
a lifting mechanism.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/tstorms/ingredient.htm
==========
Gail – ’twas something I said. Just making the point, to recap, re the argument about whether clouds cause warming or cooling, that hot and less clouds would have to be considered from a real science base ,would have know why the clouds formed, which is missing from models because they’ve taken out the water cycle completely. So logically, the ‘warming phase with less cloud cover’ could be explained by this: hotter, more water vapour, more cloud, storms, and then clearing skies; this could be looked at by comparing storm activity in higher temp phases with that of lower temps.
The second half of that which I didn’t go into as more complicated, would be to look at why more cloud when conditions cooler? Those arguing that it is the more clouds making this phase cooler are still arguing without taking into consideration how clouds come to be, clouds come to be because of heat evaporating water, the hotter it is the more quickly water vapour anyway lighter than air will rise, but, what conditions would need to be in place to cause it to be warm enough for cloud to form, but not shift – to hang around without coming down as precipitation?
Thanks for the NOAA page – I hope that helps those enamoured with the model fisics, and in the Willis link is helpful info on evaporation.

Matt G
March 10, 2012 2:49 am

Myrrh says:
March 9, 2012 at 5:50 pm
You didn’t say what Tallbloke was saying.
Your: “Tallbloke is right based on observed satellite data with trends in global cloud and temperature. Global cloud levels declined since around 1983 until 2000 then remained stable for a period after, until increasing recently. It is a disgrace that this has been ignored by alarmist climate scientsts recently. This global cloud trend has nothing to do with CO2 and is so obvious it has caused the recent warming.”
does not compute. Tallbloke was saying:
“The overall cloud feedback is negative as Spencer and Lindzen have shown with real world data. The warming from ~1980 to ~1998 was due to less cloud/more sunshine at the surface. The cooling since is due to cloud increase.”
You said the recent warming was from cloud increase.
REPLY
I never implied that and therefore the confusion has been when the recent warming occurred.
I was referring to recent warming from the same period roughly between 1980 and 1998. There hasn’t been any warming after 1998 (HAD3), thats why this period (1980-1998) is the recent warming. The pro CAGW are the ones claiming that warming should occur from cloud increase and clearly that has failed.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1998/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1998/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1980/to:1998/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1980/to:1998/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1934/to:1980/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1934/to:1980/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1955/normalise
Therefore the recent warming was caused by a decline in global cloud levels during this period. After 1998 with no warming cloud albedo become stable for a time while very slighty increasing, until an obvious increase over recent years mentioned in previous post.

Myrrh
March 10, 2012 5:13 am

Matt G says:
March 10, 2012 at 2:49 am
REPLY
I never implied that and therefore the confusion has been when the recent warming occurred.
That’s how it read..
Therefore the recent warming was caused by a decline in global cloud levels during this period. After 1998 with no warming cloud albedo become stable for a time while very slighty increasing, until an obvious increase over recent years mentioned in previous post.
After 1998 with no warming cloud albedo become stable for a time while very slighty increasing, until an obvious increase over recent years mentioned in previous post.

But thank you for the clarification, that’s all I thought I’d get as a reply in the first place…

Galane
March 10, 2012 5:41 am

“Once you have the answer, the questions get much easier …” yeah, but as long as ‘science’ is being done that way it is us who are in Jeopardy.
(That’s a reference to an American TV game show hosted by Alex Trebeck.)

IAmDigitap
March 10, 2012 2:49 pm

The fascination with the fiction that the Magic Gas Effect is Tyndall Radiation, and all is well in Magic Gas Hypothesis Land, would be hilarity if it wasn’t evidence of what’s happened to education.