Candid Comments From Climate Scientists
By Dr. Roger Pielke Sr.
There is a news release by Paul Voosen on Greenwire titled
Provoked scientists try to explain lag in global warming (Tuesday, October 25, 2011)
There are some interesting quotes from climate scientists in this article that highlight a large degree of uncertainty with respect to the climate system, and the human role in it, even among scientists closely involved with the IPCC reports. The long article focuses on the question
‘Why, despite steadily accumulating greenhouse gases, did the rise of the planet’s temperature stall for the past decade?”
Interesting quotes and text {rearranged to order the persons’ quoted; I highly recommend reading the entire article include [highlight added]:
From John Barnes [Barnes’s specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols].
“If you look at the last decade of global temperature, it’s not increasing,” Barnes said. “There’s a lot of scatter to it. But the [climate] models go up. And that has to be explained. Why didn’t we warm up?”
Barnes has kept a lonely watch for 20 years [at the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii]. Driving the winding, pothole-strewn road to this government-run lab, he has spent evening after evening waiting for the big one. His specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols, reflective particles caused by volcanoes that are known to temporarily cool the planet. Only the most violent volcanic eruptions are able to loft emissions above the clouds, scientists thought, and so Barnes, after building the laser, waited for his time.
To this day, there hasn’t been a major volcanic eruption since 1991, when Mount Pinatubo scorched the Philippines, causing the Earth to cool by about a half degree for several years. But Barnes diligently monitored this radio silence, identifying the background level of particles in the stratosphere. And then, sitting in his prefab lab four years ago, not far from where Charles Keeling first made his historic measure of rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, Barnes saw something odd in his aerosol records.
Barnes laments the boggling complexity of separating all the small forcings on the climate. It makes Charles Keeling’s careful work identifying rising CO2 levels seem downright simple.
“It’s really subtle,” he said. “It’s hard to track how much is going into the oceans, because the oceans are soaking up some of the heat. And in a lot of places the measurements just aren’t accurate enough. We do have satellites that can measure the energy budget, but there’s still assumptions there. There’s assumptions about the oceans, because we don’t have a whole lot of measurements in the ocean.”
From Jean-Paul Vernier
Five years ago, a balloon released over Saharan sands changed Jean-Paul Vernier’s life.
Climbing above the baked sand of Niger, the balloon, rigged to catch aerosols, the melange of natural and man-made particles suspended in the atmosphere, soared above the clouds and into the stratosphere. There, Vernier expected to find clear skies; after all, there had been no eruption like Pinatubo for more than a decade. But he was wrong. Twelve miles up, the balloon discovered a lode of aerosols.
Vernier had found one slice of the trend identified by Barnes at Mauna Loa in Hawaii. It was astonishing. Where could these heat-reflecting aerosols be originating? Vernier was unsure, but Barnes and his team hazarded a guess when announcing their finding. It was, they suggested, a rapidly increasing activity in China that has drawn plenty of alarm.
A French scientist who moved to NASA’s Langley Research Center in Virginia to study aerosols, Vernier, like Barnes, turned toward a laser to understand these rogue sulfates. But rather than using a laser lashed to the ground, he used a laser in space.
The same year as the Niger balloon campaign, NASA had launched a laser-equipped satellite aimed at observing aerosols among the clouds. Vernier and his peers suspected, with enough algorithmic ingenuity, that they could get the laser, CALIPSO, to speak clearly about the stratosphere. The avalanche of data streaming out of the satellite was chaotic — too noisy for Barnes’ taste, when he took a look — but several years on, Vernier had gotten a hold of it. He had found an answer.
Mostly, the aerosols didn’t seem to be China’s fault.
From Kevin Trenberth
The hiatus [in warming] was not unexpected. Variability in the climate can suppress rising temperatures temporarily, though before this decade scientists were uncertain how long such pauses could last. In any case, one decade is not long enough to say anything about human effects on climate; as one forthcoming paper lays out, 17 years is required.
For some scientists, chalking the hiatus up to the planet’s natural variability was enough. Temperatures would soon rise again, driven up inexorably by the ever-thickening blanket thrown on the atmosphere by greenhouse gases. People would forget about it.
But for others, this simple answer was a failure. If scientists were going to attribute the stall to natural variability, they faced a burden to explain, in a precise way, how this variation worked. Without evidence, their statements were no better than the unsubstantiated theories circulated by climate skeptics on the Internet.
“It has always bothered me,” said Kevin Trenberth, head of the climate analysis section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. “Natural variability is not a cause. One has to say what aspect of natural variability.”
Until 2003, scientists had a reasonable understanding where the sun’s trapped heat was going; it was reflected in rising sea levels and temperatures. Since then, however, heat in the upper ocean has barely increased and the rate of sea level rise slowed, while data from a satellite monitoring incoming and outgoing heat — the Earth’s energy budget — found that an ever increasing amount of energy should be trapped on the planet. (Some scientists question relying on this satellite data too heavily, since the observed energy must be drastically revised downward, guided by climate models.) Given this budget ostensibly included the solar cycle and aerosols, something was missing.
Where was the heat going? Trenberth repeated the question time and again.
Recently, working with Gerald Meehl and others, Trenberth proposed one answer. In a paper published last month, they put forward a climate model showing that decade-long pauses in temperature rise, and its attendant missing energy, could arise by the heat sinking into the deep, frigid ocean waters, more than 2,000 feet down. The team used a new model, one prepared for the next U.N. climate assessment; unlike past models, it handles the Pacific’s variability well, which ”seems to be important,” Trenberth said.
“In La Niña, the colder sea surface temperatures in the Pacific mean there is less convective action there — fewer tropical storms, etc., and less clouds, but thus more sun,” he said. “The heat goes into the ocean but gets moved around by the ocean currents. So ironically colder conditions lead to more heat being sequestered.”
It is a compelling illustration of how natural variability, at least in this model, could overcome the influence of increasing greenhouse gases for a decade or more, several scientists said. However, according to one prominent researcher — NASA’s Hansen — it’s a search for an answer that doesn’t need to be solved.
That is because, according to Hansen, there is no missing energy.
Trenberth questions whether the Argo measurements are mature enough to tell as definite a story as Hansen lays out. He has seen many discrepancies among analyses of the data, and there are still “issues of missing and erroneous data and calibration,” he said. The Argo floats are valuable, he added, but “they’re not there yet.”
From Susan Solomon
“What’s really been exciting to me about this last 10-year period is that it has made people think about decadal variability much more carefully than they probably have before,” said Susan Solomon, an atmospheric chemist and former lead author of the United Nations’ climate change report, during a recent visit to MIT. “And that’s all good. There is no silver bullet. In this case, it’s four pieces or five pieces of silver buckshot.”
Already Solomon had shown that between 2000 and 2009, the amount of water vapor in the stratosphere declined by about 10 percent. This decline, caused either by natural variability — perhaps related to El Niño — or as a feedback to climate change, likely countered 25 percent of the warming that would have been caused by rising greenhouse gases. (Some scientists have found that estimate to be high.) Now, another dynamic seemed to be playing out above the clouds.
In a paper published this summer, Solomon, Vernier and others brought these discrete facts to their conclusion, estimating that these aerosols caused a cooling trend of 0.07 degrees Celsius over the past decade. Like the water vapor, it was not a single answer, but it was a small player. These are the type of low-grade influences that future climate models will have to incorporate, Livermore’s Santer said.
Solomon was surprised to see Vernier’s work. She remembered the Soufrière eruption, thinking “that one’s never going to make it into the stratosphere.” The received wisdom then quickly changed. ”You can actually see that all these little eruptions, which we thought didn’t matter, were mattering,” she said.
From Jim Hansen
These revelations are prompting the science’s biggest names to change their views.
Indeed, the most important outcome from the energy hunt may be that researchers are chronically underestimating air pollution’s reflective effect, said NASA’s James Hansen, head of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies.
Recent data has forced him to revise his views on how much of the sun’s energy is stored in the oceans, committing the planet to warming. Instead, he says, air pollution from fossil fuel burning, directly and indirectly, has been masking greenhouse warming more than anyone knew.
It was in no “way affected by the nonsensical statements of contrarians,” Hansen said. “These are fundamental matters that the science has always been focused on. The problem has been the absence of [scientific] observations.”
NASA’s Hansen disputes that worry about skeptics drove climate scientists to ignore the sun’s climate influence. His team, he said, has “always included solar forcing based on observations and Judith’s estimates for the period prior to accurate observations.”
“That makes the sun a bit more important, because the solar variability modulates the net planetary energy imbalance,” Hansen said. “But the solar forcing is too small to make the net imbalance negative, i.e., solar variations are not going to cause global cooling.”
“Unfortunately, when we focus on volcanic aerosol forcing, solar forcing and stratospheric water vapor changes, it is a case of looking for our lost keys under the streetlight,” Hansen said. “What we need to look at is the tropospheric aerosol forcing, but it is not under the street light.”
“I suspect that there has been increased aerosols with the surge in coal use over the past half decade or so,” he said. “There is semi-quantitative evidence of that in the regions where it is expected. Unfortunately, the problem is that we are not measuring aerosols well enough to determine their forcing and how it is changing.”
More fundamentally, the Argo probe data has prompted Hansen to revise his understanding of how the climate works in a fundamental way, a change he lays out in a sure-to-be-controversial paper to be published later this year.
For decades, scientists have known that most of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases was going into the ocean, not the atmosphere; as a result, even if emissions stopped tomorrow, they said, the atmosphere would continue to warm as it sought balance with the overheated oceans. In a term Hansen coined, this extra warming would be “in the pipeline,” its effects lingering for years and years. But exactly how much warming would be in the pipeline depended on how efficiently heat mixed down into the oceans.
Hansen now believes he has an answer: All the climate models, compared to the Argo data and a tracer study soon to be released by several NASA peers, exaggerate how efficiently the ocean mixes heat into its recesses. Their unanimity in this efficient mixing could be due to some shared ancestry in their code. Whatever the case, it means that climate models have been overestimating the amount of energy in the climate, seeking to match the surface warming that would occur with efficient oceans. They were solving a problem, Hansen says, that didn’t exist.
At first glance, this could easily sound like good news, if true. But it’s not.
“Less efficient mixing, other things being equal, would mean that there is less warming ‘in the pipeline,’” Hansen said. “But it also implies that the negative aerosol forcing is probably larger than most models assumed. So the Faustian aerosol bargain is probably more of a problem than had been assumed.”
From John Daniel [a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]
When the record came in 1998, though, scientists faltered. It’s a pattern often seen with high temperatures. They cut out too much nuance, said John Daniel, a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
“We make a mistake, anytime the temperature goes up, you imply this is due to global warming,” he said. “If you make a big deal about every time it goes up, it seems like you should make a big deal about every time it goes down.”
From Ben Santer
For a decade, that’s exactly what happened. Skeptics made exaggerated claims about “global cooling,” pointing to 1998. (For one representative example, two years ago columnist George Will referred to 1998 as warming’s “apogee.”) Scientists had to play defense, said Ben Santer, a climate modeler at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
“This no-warming-since-1998 discussion has prompted people to think about the why and try to understand the why,” Santer said. “But it’s also prompted people to correct these incorrect claims.”
“Susan’s stuff is particularly important,” Santer said. “Even if you have the hypothetical perfect model, if you leave out the wrong forcings, you will get the wrong answer.”
From Judith Lean
The answer to the hiatus, according to Judith Lean, is all in the stars. Or rather, one star.
Only recently have climate modelers followed how that 0.1 percent can influence the world’s climate over decade-long spans. (According to best estimates, it gooses temperatures by 0.1 degrees Celsius.) Before then, the sun, to quote the late comedian Rodney Dangerfield, got no respect, according to Lean, a voluble solar scientist working out of the the space science division of the Naval Research Laboratory, a radar-bedecked facility tucked away down in the southwest tail of Washington, D.C.
Climate models failed to reflect the sun’s cyclical influence on the climate and “that has led to a sense that the sun isn’t a player,” Lean said. “And that they have to absolutely prove that it’s not a player.”
According to Lean, the combination of multiple La Niñas and the solar minimum, bottoming out for an unusually extended time in 2008 from its peak in 2001, are all that’s needed to cancel out the increased warming from rising greenhouse gases. Now that the sun has begun to gain in activity again, Lean suspects that temperatures will rise in parallel as the sun peaks around 2014.
This consistent trend has prompted Lean to take a rare step for a climate scientist: She’s made a short-term prediction. By 2014, she projects global surface temperatures to increase by 0.14 degrees Celsius, she says, driven by human warming and the sun.
From Graeme Stephens
Over the past decade, for the first time, scientists have had access to reliable measures of the ocean’s deep heat, down to 5,000 feet below sea level, through the Argo network, a collection of several thousand robotic probes that, every few days, float up and down through the water column. This led Hansen to conclude that net energy imbalance was, to be briefly technical, 0.6 watts per square meter, rather than more than 1 watt per square meter, as some had argued.
(Recently, the satellite group measuring the energy imbalance has revised its figure, which now sits at 0.6 watts, matching Hansen’s estimate, according to Graeme Stephens, the head of NASA’s Cloudsat mission. It suggests there isn’t a missing energy. Trenberth disagrees with this analysis, and it’s likely to be a question of ongoing debate.)
From Robert Kaufmann
This past summer, Robert Kaufmann, the BU geographer, made waves when he released a modeling study suggesting that the hiatus in warming could be due entirely to El Niño and increased sulfates from China’s coal burning. While the figures Kaufmann used for the study were based on the country’s coal combustion, and not actual emissions — a big point of uncertainty — many scientists saw some truth in his assertions.
From Martin Wild
During the 1980s and ’90s, the rapid decline of air pollution in the United States and Europe dominated the world’s aerosol trends. While those emissions have continued to decline in the West, returns, from a brightening standpoint, have diminished, just as coal combustion ramped up in Asia. It’s not that the world is getting dimmer again; it’s that it’s no longer getting brighter.
“It’s not an obvious overall trend anymore,” said Martin Wild, a lead author of the United Nations’ next climate assessment at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. But, he added, “it fits quite well with [coal power] generation. For me, it’s quite striking that it seems to fit quite nicely. But it could still be by chance.”
From Daniel Jacobs
Kaufmann’s findings may only be relevant for so long. Since 2006, China has begun to mandate scrubbers for its coal-fired power plants, though it is uncertain how often the scrubbers, even when installed, are operated. But change is coming, said Daniel Jacob, an atmospheric chemist at Harvard University.
“The sulfate sources have been leveling off, because they’ve been starting to put serious emission controls on their power plants,” Jacob said. “It’s interesting. When you look at the future emission scenarios from the [next U.N. climate report], you see SO2 emissions dropping like a rock, even in the coming decades. Because basically China is going to have to do something about its public health problem.”
The end of the article highlights the developing debate among even these scientists.
“….many of the scientists sorting out the warming hiatus disagree with one another – in a chummy, scholarly way. Judith Lean, the solar scientist, finds Kaufmann’s work unpersuasive and unnecessarily critical of China. Kaufmann finds Solomon’s stratosphere studies lacking in evidence. Hansen and Trenberth can’t agree on a budget.
It seems staggering, then, that in a few years’ time a new consensus will form for the next U.N. climate change report. But it will, and lurking beneath it will remain, as always, the churning theories and rivalries, the questions, the grist of scientific life.
So, in the end, can anyone say explicitly what caused the warming hiatus?
“All of these things contribute to the relative muted warming,” Livermore’s Santer said. “The difficultly is figuring out the relative contribution of these things. You can’t do that without systematic modeling and experimentation. I would hope someone will do that.”
Barnes, for his part, would love to separate whether any background aerosols he found tucked away in the stratosphere came from Chinese coal burning. It is difficult to figure out, but he has some hope it could happen.
“Maybe when coal burning triples,” he said, “then we might sort it out.”
These extracts from the Greenwire article illustrate why the climate system is not yet well understood. The science is NOT solved.

Stephen Wilde;
i) Since warmer water rises rather than falling the upward motion would offset any downward conduction and>>>
I’m talking about heavy rainfall. The surface water becomes VERY turbulent. The rain itself is also colder than the lake water (in the cases I’m speaking of) so it would tend to sink, causing more mixing.
ii) Evaporation takes out of the system in latent form 5 times the energy required to induce it so that it must suck out ALL the IR with none left over. That is why the ocean skin 1mm deep is 0.3C COOLER than the ocean bulk below. On your description that cooler layer could not exist.>>>>
I’ve gone swimming in the ocean like…twice…I’ve always wondered if the effect would be a lot different, and I imagine it would be. But I have no experience to speak of. Point being that when turbulence is high from hard rain or wind or both, the water surface isn’t flat. There is froth, whitecaps, and angle of incidence of downwelling IR goes all over the map. The question is not would the IR be absorbed causing evaporation. The question is would some IR be absorbed over larger than normal surface areas (angle of incidence) and/or froth and/or etc etc in such a fashion that temps could be raised enough to result in conduction before the evaporation process completes. I get what you are saying about the ocean skin…but in highly turbulent water there IS no ocean “skin”. The surface tension is busted up and can only form momentarily. Turbulent water is a completely different animal than still water.
“upon noticing that the old swimming hole gets warmer during a rain storm than normal”
You don’t say how you could tell. If it was simply from touch by skin then likely the rain or humidity on your skin chilled it as it evaporated as a result of your body warmth. Then if you went into the pool you would FEEL warmer but that would not mean that the pool actually had got any warmer.>>>
You are correct that on a colder day the water “feels” warmer. But I’ve been IN the water when a storm hit and it gets warmer. If I was on the beach and got into the water, sure, the cooler skin from the cold rain would make it feel like the water was warmer. But when you are IN the water, freezing your butt off, and the rain hits hard, it warms up. Mind you, anxiety regarding lightning strikes might be a factor…
A 2 decade long snipe hunt is spent looking to bolster a hypothesis based upon a trend.
The need to justify this lavish detour is taking its toll as the trend stalled and is headed back from whence it came.
The latest bad guy is not CO2, but the SO2 breathing Soot Monster from the BlackCoal Lagoon.
A Mountain is made out of a molehill, and the end result will be the Incredible Shrinking AGW hypothesis soon to be AGN (neutral) that will morph into AGC as needed.
They’re not learning. They are taking the very same route that was taken when the 1950-70’s cooling hit.
Summary: They’re milking the system for all it’s worth.
u.k.(us) says:
October 27, 2011 at 6:05 pm
Smokey says:
October 27, 2011 at 5:08 pm
Q: How are elephants and digital watches alike?
A: They both come in quartz…
=========
Ok, I spent 2 minutes googling, to no avail.
Please explain……………
Damn, I’m slow.
Should have known what perspective to take, after noting the commenter 🙂
******************************
Back in the day it was phrased like this:
Q What’s gray and comes in quarts?
Dave Springer:
Look up viscosity. It is not the same as surface tension.
Jeff D says:
October 27, 2011 at 5:51 pm
“Judith Curry confuses me. She has offered a fairly scathing critique of the whole thing as well.”
She has hard words for the Warmista from time to time, all of them justified hard words. Her topic summaries are excellent.
Whatever about co2 as a greenhouse gas and the fraction of the atmosphere that it constitutes today, one has to ask what was the effect of co2 on temperature in past millenia before plants and algae absorbed it and the carbon was locked away in coal reserves etc. Why no unstoppable tipping point then?
What bothers me most is that while these “climate scientists” will be looking south for more evidence of warming from CO2, the next 100,000-yr Ice Age will wallop their packsides from the north. And they’ll discount it at first as a minor perterbation in their undoubting understanding of continual global warming, which will be the most costly (in terms of human life and civilization’s infrastructure) ever faced by mankind. I simply cannot stand group-think, and “climsci” are the very essence of that unholy phenomenon.
“The surface tension is busted up and can only form momentarily. Turbulent water is a completely different animal than still water. ”
Well the ocean surface is never ‘still’ but the 1mm deep cooler layer is there worldwide nonetheless and for global energy budget purposes that is all that counts.
I can accept local or regional turbulence that does break it up but the global average is what counts.
“But when you are IN the water, freezing your butt off, and the rain hits hard, it warms up”
But you didn’t actually measure it so I still suspect that is a subjective experience as the contrast increases between the exposed part of your body which cools faster in the rain and the part in the pool which remains at the same temperature.
thingadonta says:
October 27, 2011 at 8:04 pm
“The last 10 years+ flat T trend is a negative PDO, cancelling out the small influence from c02. Get used to it. ”
The period 1975 to 2000 was a positive PDO which caused the warming in the first place. Get used to it.
‘“What’s really been exciting to me about this last 10-year period is that it has made people think about decadal variability much more carefully than they probably have before,” said Susan Solomon, an atmospheric chemist and former lead author of the United Nations’ climate change report, during a recent visit to MIT. “And that’s all good. There is no silver bullet. In this case, it’s four pieces or five pieces of silver buckshot.”
I find this statement quite astonishing.
Well over a decade ago, I read the book: ‘Weather Cycles: real or imaginary’ by Burroughs (CUP 2nd edition 2003). You can buy it a Amazon now if you want to.
In that extremely succinct and lucid text, it is incontestibly obvious that cycles exist, that they range from the Quasi-Biennial Oscillation, through 7-9 year cycles, 11 year cycles, 18.6 year cycles, 20 – 22 year cycles, through to multidecadal-, centennial-, millennial and Milankovitch-style.
Unless these purported world experts have been completely derelict in reading works of relevance to their trade, they should all have been aware in 1992 or, at the latest, 1993 (12 months after the first edition came out), that cycles in climate existed. I read this book in the mid 1990s after purchasing it in a well-known chain of UK bookstores. So it was hardly some inaccessiblle out-of-print edition lurking in the cellars of the Bodleiean.
It really is neither original nor revolutionary to suggest otherwise now and you do have to ask what the world is doing spending money on people who claim issues of pressing concern that were resolved statistically 20 years ago and more.
What should be of obvious interest is the assignment of mechanism/influence to the various peaks in the Fourier transform analyses. 11 years has been assigned to sunspot cycles; 18.6 to lunar cycles; 22 years to the Hale magnetic cycle. Presumably the 50 – 70 year cycles are due to oceanic parameters?
Stop rehashing known cycles as new and get on with identifying what mechanisms they are ascribed to, please.
Dear god, is framing hypotheses and testing them through experiment beyond this lot??
@Mosher
“Taking Santer’s suggestion that it takes 17 years to see these things”
The text above indicates Kevin Trenberth is referring to a forthcoming paper but doesn’t mention the author(s). I’m intrigued to see how such a seemingly arbitrary number is calculated.
steven mosher says:
October 27, 2011 at 7:54 pm
@John Whitman
—————–
Steve,
Thanks for you comment.
The evolution of climate science is accelerating as it truly becomes a sketical discourse.
I watch in fascination the cascading comedown from myopic views of our climate dynamic as essentially defined by AGW by CO2 from fossil fuels.
John
Observed temperatures are not following the models!!!!!!
It’s because the dang models are WRONG.
Is it not time that some climate scientists, and I use the term loosely, get a grip on REALITY.
“The planet has been naturally warming since the LIA, and it is still on its unbroken trend line”
So it’s just warming of its own accord? How does it do that?
The Great God of Carbon Balderdash received a Near Death Blow last week from the UK Government when they shut down the doomed Longannet CCS Scheme in Scotland, yet the SNP Scottish “First Minister”, Alex (World Beating Climate Targets) Salmond, still jabbers on about how the British Government is to blame for this debacle. Now he proposes that Britain should spend 10% of North Sea oil tax revenues to resurrect this zombie contrivance. See the updated report and also related stories featuring Lord Monckton at : http://wp.me/p1vFWW-g7
stevo says:
“So it’s just warming of its own accord? How does it do that?”
This has been explained many times:
pat says:
October 27, 2011 at 10:34 am
There appear to be two primary schools of thought. The Earth is going through a cold spell that would be a lot colder without AGW. Or the Earth would warm, but has not because of various aerosols.The obvious is missing: If there is a cold spell, could there not have been a natural warm spell? Could not those aerosols been there the whole time?
++++++++++++
Yes, Pat that is the whole point. As soon as they admit there is natural cooling, there could as well hav ebeen natural warming and hte forcing of CO2+feedback has been overestimated.
That is why they now concentrate on finding an ‘aha moment’ with soot and particles. It still holds open the thin possibility that we are still responsible for all ups and downs that we must be brought into line under their control and direction.
If it gets cooler by itself, who is to say it did not ‘un-cooler’ itself just as much? What then? The Supreme Power of the all-influential CO2 and its Devilish minions (sulphates, black carbon, methane, water) becomes questionable. That which is questionable is not all-powerful. That which is not all-powerful needs less attention.
It is obviously an extension of the old ‘coal-fired power stations are destroying the environment’ argument that certainly had local validity. It is good that we want to clean up our messes. Nothing wrong with that at all. But it is a stretch to invoke CO2 (or sulphates) each time the wind blows dust into your eyes or your kid gets a sunburn. Those are ‘poppycock moments’.
Absolutely astounding. These are not reasons, they are excuses. The facts will show that the big natural drivers are by and large in control, not some tiny trace gas that is needed for life on the planet, and is probably its only true function as designed by a creator bigger than Hansen, Trenborth, and yes,even AL GORE HIMSELF.
If in the next 20-30 years, with the PDO switching and the AMO switching a bit later, the earths temps go back up, they have a point.
Its a simple deduction, as much as they want it to be something more than that to justify themselves as being smarter than the obvious
I see Al Gore wants a debate now. The debate is over… it either is or isnt and in the next 20 years, rationale people will come to see that
Paul says:
October 27, 2011 at 1:22 pm
The whole story, with proper context, is available here:
http://www.eenews.net/public/Greenwire/2011/10/25/1
This is likely Paul Voosen, E&E reporter and author of the article. Well worth a read in totality which makes it seem this thread’s “consensus” on the article is not what was expected/hoped for. Best laid plans and all.
steven mosher says:
October 27, 2011 at 7:54 pm
“I would say just the opposite. To a first order we know the effect of doubling C02 is about 1.2C
absent any good arguments about why it has to be higher or lower, it would see that this should be the skeptical position. First principles can get you to 1.2. Above that or below that requires substantial evidence.. lack of knowledge is not evidence for figures below 1.2, neither are models evidence for figures above this.”
Steven I have pointed out the evidence before.
Suppose I was to ask you what the Earths temperature will be in 500 million years time.
In that time we know that the radiative forcing from the Sun will increase by the equivalent of five doublings of CO2. I am pretty sure you will say that it will be cosiderably warmer given what you have previously said about what you believe is the Earths generic response to an increase in RF.
If you do not think the Earth will warm please elucidate.
Now let us conduct a little ‘Gedanken’ experiment.
Suppose I asked you this question 500 million years in the past. The science and physics remain the same the only thing different is that you do not have knowledge of todays temperatures.
I assume you would say the same as you would say today i.e. that the Earth will warm in the face of a subsequent increase in RF of the equivalent of five doublings of CO2.
However the beauty of this experiment is that we know what actually happened and that temperatures actually fell from about 22c to about 14c.
So what happened? Perhaps you can tell us Steven with full details of all the factors involved and their proportionate impact. I will not hold my breath however!
Given, as you say, that we have a fairly good grip on radiative physics and we know that, everything else being equal, putting additional energy into a system will cause the temperature to rise. Therefore, something must be happening in the system that we dont understand and have a good grip on.
The CAGW position, that increasing RF on the Earth MUST cause the temperature to rise, is demonstrably false.
That is the whole point of this debate about climate science we don’t know enough about the system and what is causing it to change over the long term.
That the ‘Science’ is basically settled is such a ludicrous position to hold that it is frankly laughable
Alan
Yes kMc2, Rabbie Burns kent a thing or twa. The last two verses of that particular poem “To a Mouse”, are particularly relevant in the context of these schemes, and indeed propaganda pieces which are written about them.
But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;
The best-laid schemes o’ mice an ‘men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!
Still thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e’e.
On prospects drear!
An’ forward, tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear!
I took the HadCrut adjusted mean NH data since 1995, subtracted their equivalent SH data from it then plotted it in Excel adding a linear trend line.
Here’s what I got.
If the atmosphere does not mix much across the equator then doesn’t the above result throw cold water on the idea that relatively short lived aerosols from China are somehow responsible for a global temperature stagnation? The NH appears to be warming not cooling.
I meant – “appears to be warming with respect to the SH not cooling.”
All interesting statements – with a stunning absence of hubris (and shame! at the angst they’ve created) – and scrambling to ‘dis’ the measurements (eg., satellite temperature, ARGO floats) they demanded to ‘solve’ the problem.
Surface air temperatures have been of much interest lately, as some scientists have detected an accelerating ‘global warming’ trend since 1980, while others have detected more recently a significant slowing, and even a reversal of this trend since 2001, to near -2°C (-3.6°F) per century. This is shown above for the Climatic Research Unit and the UK Met. Office Hadley Centre data (HADCRUT3), but can be seen in all of the global meteorological databases.
Thanks Dr. Pielke!