Candid Comments From Climate Scientists
By Dr. Roger Pielke Sr.
There is a news release by Paul Voosen on Greenwire titled
Provoked scientists try to explain lag in global warming (Tuesday, October 25, 2011)
There are some interesting quotes from climate scientists in this article that highlight a large degree of uncertainty with respect to the climate system, and the human role in it, even among scientists closely involved with the IPCC reports. The long article focuses on the question
‘Why, despite steadily accumulating greenhouse gases, did the rise of the planet’s temperature stall for the past decade?”
Interesting quotes and text {rearranged to order the persons’ quoted; I highly recommend reading the entire article include [highlight added]:
From John Barnes [Barnes’s specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols].
“If you look at the last decade of global temperature, it’s not increasing,” Barnes said. “There’s a lot of scatter to it. But the [climate] models go up. And that has to be explained. Why didn’t we warm up?”
Barnes has kept a lonely watch for 20 years [at the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii]. Driving the winding, pothole-strewn road to this government-run lab, he has spent evening after evening waiting for the big one. His specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols, reflective particles caused by volcanoes that are known to temporarily cool the planet. Only the most violent volcanic eruptions are able to loft emissions above the clouds, scientists thought, and so Barnes, after building the laser, waited for his time.
To this day, there hasn’t been a major volcanic eruption since 1991, when Mount Pinatubo scorched the Philippines, causing the Earth to cool by about a half degree for several years. But Barnes diligently monitored this radio silence, identifying the background level of particles in the stratosphere. And then, sitting in his prefab lab four years ago, not far from where Charles Keeling first made his historic measure of rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, Barnes saw something odd in his aerosol records.
Barnes laments the boggling complexity of separating all the small forcings on the climate. It makes Charles Keeling’s careful work identifying rising CO2 levels seem downright simple.
“It’s really subtle,” he said. “It’s hard to track how much is going into the oceans, because the oceans are soaking up some of the heat. And in a lot of places the measurements just aren’t accurate enough. We do have satellites that can measure the energy budget, but there’s still assumptions there. There’s assumptions about the oceans, because we don’t have a whole lot of measurements in the ocean.”
From Jean-Paul Vernier
Five years ago, a balloon released over Saharan sands changed Jean-Paul Vernier’s life.
Climbing above the baked sand of Niger, the balloon, rigged to catch aerosols, the melange of natural and man-made particles suspended in the atmosphere, soared above the clouds and into the stratosphere. There, Vernier expected to find clear skies; after all, there had been no eruption like Pinatubo for more than a decade. But he was wrong. Twelve miles up, the balloon discovered a lode of aerosols.
Vernier had found one slice of the trend identified by Barnes at Mauna Loa in Hawaii. It was astonishing. Where could these heat-reflecting aerosols be originating? Vernier was unsure, but Barnes and his team hazarded a guess when announcing their finding. It was, they suggested, a rapidly increasing activity in China that has drawn plenty of alarm.
A French scientist who moved to NASA’s Langley Research Center in Virginia to study aerosols, Vernier, like Barnes, turned toward a laser to understand these rogue sulfates. But rather than using a laser lashed to the ground, he used a laser in space.
The same year as the Niger balloon campaign, NASA had launched a laser-equipped satellite aimed at observing aerosols among the clouds. Vernier and his peers suspected, with enough algorithmic ingenuity, that they could get the laser, CALIPSO, to speak clearly about the stratosphere. The avalanche of data streaming out of the satellite was chaotic — too noisy for Barnes’ taste, when he took a look — but several years on, Vernier had gotten a hold of it. He had found an answer.
Mostly, the aerosols didn’t seem to be China’s fault.
From Kevin Trenberth
The hiatus [in warming] was not unexpected. Variability in the climate can suppress rising temperatures temporarily, though before this decade scientists were uncertain how long such pauses could last. In any case, one decade is not long enough to say anything about human effects on climate; as one forthcoming paper lays out, 17 years is required.
For some scientists, chalking the hiatus up to the planet’s natural variability was enough. Temperatures would soon rise again, driven up inexorably by the ever-thickening blanket thrown on the atmosphere by greenhouse gases. People would forget about it.
But for others, this simple answer was a failure. If scientists were going to attribute the stall to natural variability, they faced a burden to explain, in a precise way, how this variation worked. Without evidence, their statements were no better than the unsubstantiated theories circulated by climate skeptics on the Internet.
“It has always bothered me,” said Kevin Trenberth, head of the climate analysis section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. “Natural variability is not a cause. One has to say what aspect of natural variability.”
Until 2003, scientists had a reasonable understanding where the sun’s trapped heat was going; it was reflected in rising sea levels and temperatures. Since then, however, heat in the upper ocean has barely increased and the rate of sea level rise slowed, while data from a satellite monitoring incoming and outgoing heat — the Earth’s energy budget — found that an ever increasing amount of energy should be trapped on the planet. (Some scientists question relying on this satellite data too heavily, since the observed energy must be drastically revised downward, guided by climate models.) Given this budget ostensibly included the solar cycle and aerosols, something was missing.
Where was the heat going? Trenberth repeated the question time and again.
Recently, working with Gerald Meehl and others, Trenberth proposed one answer. In a paper published last month, they put forward a climate model showing that decade-long pauses in temperature rise, and its attendant missing energy, could arise by the heat sinking into the deep, frigid ocean waters, more than 2,000 feet down. The team used a new model, one prepared for the next U.N. climate assessment; unlike past models, it handles the Pacific’s variability well, which ”seems to be important,” Trenberth said.
“In La Niña, the colder sea surface temperatures in the Pacific mean there is less convective action there — fewer tropical storms, etc., and less clouds, but thus more sun,” he said. “The heat goes into the ocean but gets moved around by the ocean currents. So ironically colder conditions lead to more heat being sequestered.”
It is a compelling illustration of how natural variability, at least in this model, could overcome the influence of increasing greenhouse gases for a decade or more, several scientists said. However, according to one prominent researcher — NASA’s Hansen — it’s a search for an answer that doesn’t need to be solved.
That is because, according to Hansen, there is no missing energy.
Trenberth questions whether the Argo measurements are mature enough to tell as definite a story as Hansen lays out. He has seen many discrepancies among analyses of the data, and there are still “issues of missing and erroneous data and calibration,” he said. The Argo floats are valuable, he added, but “they’re not there yet.”
From Susan Solomon
“What’s really been exciting to me about this last 10-year period is that it has made people think about decadal variability much more carefully than they probably have before,” said Susan Solomon, an atmospheric chemist and former lead author of the United Nations’ climate change report, during a recent visit to MIT. “And that’s all good. There is no silver bullet. In this case, it’s four pieces or five pieces of silver buckshot.”
Already Solomon had shown that between 2000 and 2009, the amount of water vapor in the stratosphere declined by about 10 percent. This decline, caused either by natural variability — perhaps related to El Niño — or as a feedback to climate change, likely countered 25 percent of the warming that would have been caused by rising greenhouse gases. (Some scientists have found that estimate to be high.) Now, another dynamic seemed to be playing out above the clouds.
In a paper published this summer, Solomon, Vernier and others brought these discrete facts to their conclusion, estimating that these aerosols caused a cooling trend of 0.07 degrees Celsius over the past decade. Like the water vapor, it was not a single answer, but it was a small player. These are the type of low-grade influences that future climate models will have to incorporate, Livermore’s Santer said.
Solomon was surprised to see Vernier’s work. She remembered the Soufrière eruption, thinking “that one’s never going to make it into the stratosphere.” The received wisdom then quickly changed. ”You can actually see that all these little eruptions, which we thought didn’t matter, were mattering,” she said.
From Jim Hansen
These revelations are prompting the science’s biggest names to change their views.
Indeed, the most important outcome from the energy hunt may be that researchers are chronically underestimating air pollution’s reflective effect, said NASA’s James Hansen, head of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies.
Recent data has forced him to revise his views on how much of the sun’s energy is stored in the oceans, committing the planet to warming. Instead, he says, air pollution from fossil fuel burning, directly and indirectly, has been masking greenhouse warming more than anyone knew.
It was in no “way affected by the nonsensical statements of contrarians,” Hansen said. “These are fundamental matters that the science has always been focused on. The problem has been the absence of [scientific] observations.”
NASA’s Hansen disputes that worry about skeptics drove climate scientists to ignore the sun’s climate influence. His team, he said, has “always included solar forcing based on observations and Judith’s estimates for the period prior to accurate observations.”
“That makes the sun a bit more important, because the solar variability modulates the net planetary energy imbalance,” Hansen said. “But the solar forcing is too small to make the net imbalance negative, i.e., solar variations are not going to cause global cooling.”
“Unfortunately, when we focus on volcanic aerosol forcing, solar forcing and stratospheric water vapor changes, it is a case of looking for our lost keys under the streetlight,” Hansen said. “What we need to look at is the tropospheric aerosol forcing, but it is not under the street light.”
“I suspect that there has been increased aerosols with the surge in coal use over the past half decade or so,” he said. “There is semi-quantitative evidence of that in the regions where it is expected. Unfortunately, the problem is that we are not measuring aerosols well enough to determine their forcing and how it is changing.”
More fundamentally, the Argo probe data has prompted Hansen to revise his understanding of how the climate works in a fundamental way, a change he lays out in a sure-to-be-controversial paper to be published later this year.
For decades, scientists have known that most of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases was going into the ocean, not the atmosphere; as a result, even if emissions stopped tomorrow, they said, the atmosphere would continue to warm as it sought balance with the overheated oceans. In a term Hansen coined, this extra warming would be “in the pipeline,” its effects lingering for years and years. But exactly how much warming would be in the pipeline depended on how efficiently heat mixed down into the oceans.
Hansen now believes he has an answer: All the climate models, compared to the Argo data and a tracer study soon to be released by several NASA peers, exaggerate how efficiently the ocean mixes heat into its recesses. Their unanimity in this efficient mixing could be due to some shared ancestry in their code. Whatever the case, it means that climate models have been overestimating the amount of energy in the climate, seeking to match the surface warming that would occur with efficient oceans. They were solving a problem, Hansen says, that didn’t exist.
At first glance, this could easily sound like good news, if true. But it’s not.
“Less efficient mixing, other things being equal, would mean that there is less warming ‘in the pipeline,’” Hansen said. “But it also implies that the negative aerosol forcing is probably larger than most models assumed. So the Faustian aerosol bargain is probably more of a problem than had been assumed.”
From John Daniel [a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]
When the record came in 1998, though, scientists faltered. It’s a pattern often seen with high temperatures. They cut out too much nuance, said John Daniel, a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
“We make a mistake, anytime the temperature goes up, you imply this is due to global warming,” he said. “If you make a big deal about every time it goes up, it seems like you should make a big deal about every time it goes down.”
From Ben Santer
For a decade, that’s exactly what happened. Skeptics made exaggerated claims about “global cooling,” pointing to 1998. (For one representative example, two years ago columnist George Will referred to 1998 as warming’s “apogee.”) Scientists had to play defense, said Ben Santer, a climate modeler at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
“This no-warming-since-1998 discussion has prompted people to think about the why and try to understand the why,” Santer said. “But it’s also prompted people to correct these incorrect claims.”
“Susan’s stuff is particularly important,” Santer said. “Even if you have the hypothetical perfect model, if you leave out the wrong forcings, you will get the wrong answer.”
From Judith Lean
The answer to the hiatus, according to Judith Lean, is all in the stars. Or rather, one star.
Only recently have climate modelers followed how that 0.1 percent can influence the world’s climate over decade-long spans. (According to best estimates, it gooses temperatures by 0.1 degrees Celsius.) Before then, the sun, to quote the late comedian Rodney Dangerfield, got no respect, according to Lean, a voluble solar scientist working out of the the space science division of the Naval Research Laboratory, a radar-bedecked facility tucked away down in the southwest tail of Washington, D.C.
Climate models failed to reflect the sun’s cyclical influence on the climate and “that has led to a sense that the sun isn’t a player,” Lean said. “And that they have to absolutely prove that it’s not a player.”
According to Lean, the combination of multiple La Niñas and the solar minimum, bottoming out for an unusually extended time in 2008 from its peak in 2001, are all that’s needed to cancel out the increased warming from rising greenhouse gases. Now that the sun has begun to gain in activity again, Lean suspects that temperatures will rise in parallel as the sun peaks around 2014.
This consistent trend has prompted Lean to take a rare step for a climate scientist: She’s made a short-term prediction. By 2014, she projects global surface temperatures to increase by 0.14 degrees Celsius, she says, driven by human warming and the sun.
From Graeme Stephens
Over the past decade, for the first time, scientists have had access to reliable measures of the ocean’s deep heat, down to 5,000 feet below sea level, through the Argo network, a collection of several thousand robotic probes that, every few days, float up and down through the water column. This led Hansen to conclude that net energy imbalance was, to be briefly technical, 0.6 watts per square meter, rather than more than 1 watt per square meter, as some had argued.
(Recently, the satellite group measuring the energy imbalance has revised its figure, which now sits at 0.6 watts, matching Hansen’s estimate, according to Graeme Stephens, the head of NASA’s Cloudsat mission. It suggests there isn’t a missing energy. Trenberth disagrees with this analysis, and it’s likely to be a question of ongoing debate.)
From Robert Kaufmann
This past summer, Robert Kaufmann, the BU geographer, made waves when he released a modeling study suggesting that the hiatus in warming could be due entirely to El Niño and increased sulfates from China’s coal burning. While the figures Kaufmann used for the study were based on the country’s coal combustion, and not actual emissions — a big point of uncertainty — many scientists saw some truth in his assertions.
From Martin Wild
During the 1980s and ’90s, the rapid decline of air pollution in the United States and Europe dominated the world’s aerosol trends. While those emissions have continued to decline in the West, returns, from a brightening standpoint, have diminished, just as coal combustion ramped up in Asia. It’s not that the world is getting dimmer again; it’s that it’s no longer getting brighter.
“It’s not an obvious overall trend anymore,” said Martin Wild, a lead author of the United Nations’ next climate assessment at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. But, he added, “it fits quite well with [coal power] generation. For me, it’s quite striking that it seems to fit quite nicely. But it could still be by chance.”
From Daniel Jacobs
Kaufmann’s findings may only be relevant for so long. Since 2006, China has begun to mandate scrubbers for its coal-fired power plants, though it is uncertain how often the scrubbers, even when installed, are operated. But change is coming, said Daniel Jacob, an atmospheric chemist at Harvard University.
“The sulfate sources have been leveling off, because they’ve been starting to put serious emission controls on their power plants,” Jacob said. “It’s interesting. When you look at the future emission scenarios from the [next U.N. climate report], you see SO2 emissions dropping like a rock, even in the coming decades. Because basically China is going to have to do something about its public health problem.”
The end of the article highlights the developing debate among even these scientists.
“….many of the scientists sorting out the warming hiatus disagree with one another – in a chummy, scholarly way. Judith Lean, the solar scientist, finds Kaufmann’s work unpersuasive and unnecessarily critical of China. Kaufmann finds Solomon’s stratosphere studies lacking in evidence. Hansen and Trenberth can’t agree on a budget.
It seems staggering, then, that in a few years’ time a new consensus will form for the next U.N. climate change report. But it will, and lurking beneath it will remain, as always, the churning theories and rivalries, the questions, the grist of scientific life.
So, in the end, can anyone say explicitly what caused the warming hiatus?
“All of these things contribute to the relative muted warming,” Livermore’s Santer said. “The difficultly is figuring out the relative contribution of these things. You can’t do that without systematic modeling and experimentation. I would hope someone will do that.”
Barnes, for his part, would love to separate whether any background aerosols he found tucked away in the stratosphere came from Chinese coal burning. It is difficult to figure out, but he has some hope it could happen.
“Maybe when coal burning triples,” he said, “then we might sort it out.”
These extracts from the Greenwire article illustrate why the climate system is not yet well understood. The science is NOT solved.

I was defending the skeptic position over at Ars Technica lately (man, what a rabid group of attack dogs for the AGW faithful) in this forum http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/climate-skeptics-perform-independent-analysis-finally-convinced-earth-is-getting-warmer.ars?comments=1&start=440#comments-bar
And several of the commenters pointed to this link, saying that a pause in warming is predicted in the models, see here (I know Anthony has deprecated this site, but it has some damming evidence)
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Hansen-1988-prediction-advanced.htm
Here Hanson’s scenario C was trumpeted as having a flat stretch of low temperature increase. (“See the models are wonderful !”) But, see figure 3, where Gavin has added CRU and GIS actual data onto the graph of Hanson’s models. And the actual temperatures match scenario C pretty well, the one that shows a flat temperature in 2010 time frame.
But the catch is the increasing CO2 scenario “B” diverges from the real data, but the data is right on top of the C model projection. The BIG PROBLEM is that scenario C was a sharp reduction in CO2 emissions in year 2000. Which of course did not happen, so this proves the model has an over estimated sensitivity!
Hoist that on your own petard !
The effort put in by Paul Voosen is surely appreciated. It is time to start looking at the bigger picture.
Btw, have you noticed that the warmist side of the blog world and the press are dead silent?
Jay says:
October 28, 2011 at 8:21 am
“But the catch is the increasing CO2 scenario “B” diverges from the real data, but the data is right on top of the C model projection. The BIG PROBLEM is that scenario C was a sharp reduction in CO2 emissions in year 2000.”
That’s too funny. Steve Goddard has made the same graph composition a few days ago.
http://www.real-science.com/doubt-temperatures-rising-fast-hansens-emissions
So SKS disproves skeptics now by saying what they are saying? That won’t work, SKS!
O H Dahlsveen says:
October 27, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Gail Combs – I have thought about it and I am your new business partner!!
But it looks as if we shall have to act quickly cause I am suspecting Hansen & al are halfway there already!
______________________________
Oh darn! I wonder if Al Gore is getting his buddies at World Bank and HSBC to invest too.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/25/they-had-to-burn-the-village-to-save-it-from-global-warming/
Smokey says:
October 27, 2011 at 8:03 pm
steven mosher,
Sorry, wrong answer. It doesn’t take only 17 years to see what’s happening, it takes a lot longer. The planet has been naturally warming since the LIA, and it is still on its unbroken trend line. Nothing unusual is happening.
_____________________________________________
And if you go back to a start date of 1AD we have been COOLING!
http://www.biocab.org/Boreholes_Reconstruction.jpg
Or if you go back to a start date 0.03 million years ago we have drastically warmed or if you go back 0.13 million years we have cooled.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9484/lasticeageglant.png
Start date is the critical parameter when you are looking at natural cycles and that is the whole basis of the CAGW hoax. It is the reason for Mann’s Hockey Schtick and the moving goal post of how do we now determine if the earth is “Cooling” from the “climate scientists”
With cycles within cycles within cycles in the earths climate record you can pretty much get any answer you want just pick the correct start and end date.
The graph below highlights the big disconnect for GISS compared to these other data sets. The GISS is the only one out of all data sets (not all shown here) to show a data month greater than the peak in 1998.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:1997.25/plot/gistemp/from:1997.25/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1997.25/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1997.25/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1997.25/trend
The difference is huge when considering the size of the pole in relation to the globe. Everybody should know that ocean and sea temperatures behaves much slower than land temperatures with less extremes. Yet land temperatures are pasted over the Arctic seas into towards the center of the pole, even over SST’s data that already exists and can be used now.
This making up the data (therefore not a genuine observed data set any more) is often showing monthly temperatures around 0.3c higher than rival data sets. My estimation to cause this 0.3c rise would require a temperature over the pole to be around 6c above average. With the pole mainly being ocean water this is nonsense, would find great difficulty searching for an anomaly this size ever on a SST map. Remember this average is for the entire region which makes this even more laughable.
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/satellite/index.uk.php
If thats not bad enough global SST’s on all available data sets don’t show a warming during this same period. It is not possible to measure global atmospheric temperatures and be off such a huge tangent with ocean temperatures and still be correct. Below hadsst2gl does show cooler temperatures than ocean and land, but neither show this GISS warming.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1997.25/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1997.25/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1997.25/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1997.25/trend
John Whitman says:
October 27, 2011 at 6:11 pm
A – If she is pregnant for 22 months?
Then my guess is . . . you are probably dating an elephant!
Smokey, what is counteracting exactly all of the known varying external factors, to leave behind the supposed warming with no cause?
Laurie Bowen (trolling) says:
October 28, 2011 at 10:21 am
@John Whitman says:
———————–
Laurie Bowen (trolling),
Ah yes, sauce for the goose. : )
John
stevo says on October 28, 2011 at 3:47 am:
“——————- So it’s just warming of its own accord? How does it do that?”
======
We know very little about what is happening in 99.5 %, or more, of the Solar System – i.e. in The Sun itself. What if percentagewise the various different types of radiation-waves change – periodically or over some lenght of time?
Say for example Gamma or/and some other “Rays” decrease with say, 5% and Infra Red increased by the same amount? – We just do not know.
Leif Svalgaard, make yourself famous; Search for it!
Gail Combs says on October 28, 2011 at 9:29 am:
“Oh darn! I wonder if Al Gore is getting his buddies at World Bank and HSBC to invest too.”
=======
Thanks for that one Gail,
I shall be at the HSBC counter promptly, when it next opens, to demand they pay me my savings of £36.49 promptly and then close my account.
I am sorry, really I am – but I have less influence, by far, on Al’s goings on in the World Bank.
I can only join you and yours in wishing him, and his co-operators, bad luck and “may their balls turn square so that they can fester at the corners”
stevo says:
“So it’s just warming of its own accord? How does it do that?”
So do you think that the world warmed up “just by itself” at the end of all the dozens of ice ages in the earth’s history? And every other “natural” (gotta love that word!!) down fluctuation in temperature history? Do you believe that the earth’s climate is capable of changing without human intervention or permission? Do you seriously claim to have exhaustive knowledge of all the other natural sources of climate variation, such that you can eliminate them all and attribute warming solely to CO2!
Or does your nanny peer group allow you to believe in ice ages or that the world existed before 1850?
Hmmm dust is more important that previously thought.
All major cooling periods are marked by high dust levels in the ice cores.
You don’t suppose that cold dry conditions encourage increasing dust levels, which provided a strong negative feedback leading to change of state to global cooling??
Especially funny if the stratospheric dust composition can be matched to atmospheric dust generated during major dust storm events. That would mean that the efforts of the EPA to clean up the atmosphere in recent decades might be the cause of the warming over the last few decades, so efforts to cut pollution might actually have contributed to the problem they were trying to solve.
Ooops!
Never mind.
Larry
stevo believes the cause of the [very minor] warming over the past century and a half is because of CO2. That belief is the typical argumentum ad ignorantium: “Since I can’t think of any other cause, then it must be due to CO2.”
Smokey, why not answer the question: what is counteracting exactly all of the known varying external factors, to leave behind the supposed warming with no cause?
phlogiston: “So do you think that the world warmed up “just by itself” at the end of all the dozens of ice ages in the earth’s history? [blah blah blah]”
No, do you? Ice ages don’t “just end”, nor do they “just start”. It’s pretty well known that changes in Earth’s orbital parameters determine their timing.
stevo says:
October 28, 2011 at 2:22 pm
“No, do you? Ice ages don’t “just end”, nor do they “just start”. It’s pretty well known that changes in Earth’s orbital parameters determine their timing.”
Actually that’s only part of it. Why did they suddenly begin a few million years ago when orbital mechanics didn’t change at that time? Why were they on 40,000 year cycles for a couple million years then change to 100,000 year cycles a million years ago?
Other things known to perturb climate from time to time are major volcanic eruptions, asteroid and comet impacts, continental drift that changes ocean circulation patterns, solar cycles (suspected) with lengths much greater than the well known 11-year sunspot cycle, supernovae in our region of the milky way galaxy, and traversals by our solar system across the spiral arms of the galaxy. And these are just things we know about or strongly suspect influence our planet. We don’t know what we don’t know. Got it? Write that down!
stevo
If it’s any consolation I believe that anthropogenic CO2 and other emissions do have some effect on our climate. In the past these probably had a negative consequence (particulates that were bad to breathe and caused global cooling) but these have been brought under control and the leftover emission, CO2, is a beneficial addition to the atmosphere that makes plants grow faster and need less water at the same time, plus because of the way the greenhouse warming works the warming comes primarily at night, in the colder months, and in the higher latitudes. The time and place where the warming occurs is once again beneficial as it extends growing seasons where they most need extension! You see because they are at night and in the colde months they reduce the chance of late killer frosts in the spring and early killer frosts in the fall without changing the average daily high temperatures which determine which crops are best suited for the area. I mean we couldn’t ask for a more beneficial side effect! It’s perfect!!!!!! If we’re really really lucky, or rather our ancestors are really really lucky there might even be enough warming to end the ice age of the past few million years so our great great great great great great grandchildren won’t have to make living hunting wooly mammoths on mile thick glaciers that cover half the northern hemisphere land masses during glacial periods. Wouldn’t that be a great legacy?! I think so!!!!!!!!
http://www.real-science.com/doubt-temperatures-rising-fast-hansens-emissions
Great post by Steve Goddard above re this topic. Don’t miss it. Unless you’re a warmist then it’ll probably just upset you and you are probably already too upset already. Just sayin…
Steven “one trick pony” Mosher typically fails (as of yet) to answer the following drubbing:
Alan Millar says:
October 28, 2011 at 4:55 am
steven mosher says:
October 27, 2011 at 7:54 pm
“I would say just the opposite. To a first order we know the effect of doubling C02 is about 1.2C
absent any good arguments about why it has to be higher or lower, it would see that this should be the skeptical position. First principles can get you to 1.2. Above that or below that requires substantial evidence.. lack of knowledge is not evidence for figures below 1.2, neither are models evidence for figures above this.”
Steven I have pointed out the evidence before.
Suppose I was to ask you what the Earths temperature will be in 500 million years time.
In that time we know that the radiative forcing from the Sun will increase by the equivalent of five doublings of CO2. I am pretty sure you will say that it will be cosiderably warmer given what you have previously said about what you believe is the Earths generic response to an increase in RF.
If you do not think the Earth will warm please elucidate.
Now let us conduct a little ‘Gedanken’ experiment.
Suppose I asked you this question 500 million years in the past. The science and physics remain the same the only thing different is that you do not have knowledge of todays temperatures.
I assume you would say the same as you would say today i.e. that the Earth will warm in the face of a subsequent increase in RF of the equivalent of five doublings of CO2.
However the beauty of this experiment is that we know what actually happened and that temperatures actually fell from about 22c to about 14c.
So what happened? Perhaps you can tell us Steven with full details of all the factors involved and their proportionate impact. I will not hold my breath however!
Smokey says:
October 28, 2011 at 1:37 pm
stevo believes the cause of the [very minor] warming over the past century and a half is because of CO2. That belief is the typical argumentum ad ignorantium: “Since I can’t think of any other cause, then it must be due to CO2.”
————————-
Smoky & stevo,
To me, the most intriguing and subtle of all logical fallacies is called begging-the-question.
I smell a faint whiff of it in your dialog. No time to expand, but rest assured that I will in future comments on future WUWT posts.
No time now (family calls).
John
lrshultis says:
October 27, 2011 at 9:51 pm
Thank you for pointing that out! In the back of my mind I knew that. It’s typical of the well informed amateur in a field to understand concepts but fail to use the right words to express them due to lack of repetition. I haven’t used the term surface tension in a sentence in 30 years but I have mentioned viscosity many many times. I’m also well aware that surface tension is what allows a water-bug to walk on water and what allows a carefully placed steel needle to stay afloat. It’s kind of hard imagine making that error in writing over and over again when I knew exactly what I wanted to express…
The point I made is unchanged by the error in terminology. Surface tension is the dominant force in the skin layer.
Surface tension results in increased viscosity at the surface doesn’t it ?
davidmhoffer says:
October 27, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Instead of making things up why not find the facts first so you don’t embarrass yourself quite so
much with the uneducated rambling.
The barrier zones in the ocean
By E. M. Emelʹi︠a︡nov
http://books.google.com/books?id=Em9Bm24Iq9kC&pg=PA253&lpg=PA253#v=onepage&q&f=false
See the illustration near the middle of the page about what happens in ocean froth driven by high winds and what happens when raindrops hit the surface. Rather than downward mixing the skin breaking on the air bubbles drives water molecules from the skin layer into the atmosphere above the water. This is exactly the opposite of what you imagined and described in your ignorant response.
Buy a clue Hoffer. And while you’re at it buy two of them and give one to your BFF Willis.
Confirming and expanding upon what Stephen Wilde wrote:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Em9Bm24Iq9kC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA253
Surface microlayer of the ocean averages 3-5mm deep and is colder than the water below it by 1C with a gradient of 2-5C/cm (Hunarzhua 1977).
Evaporation removes heat from the ocean so efficiently the colder water doesn’t even have time sink. As I wrote before the primary mechanism for ocean cooling is evaporation, not radiation, and it works by a surface layer just a few molecules thick constantly getting peeled off as water vapor and taking a whole buttload of latent (insensible) heat with it in the process. This latent heat will not become sensible on a thermometer until the vapor condenses. It may condense right away and form a fog bank which isn’t particularly rare over the ocean but the typical case is it rises to the cloud deck and so all that downwelling far infrared radiation from CO2 so infamous and visible in the land temperature record as surface warming is largely, mechanically, and invisibly lifted to the cloud deck over the ocean and ocean temperature is thus far less effected by GHGs. This explains all the observations including the infamous missing heat and why the land-based temperture record in the northern hemisphere (recalculated by BEST) show so much greater temperature anomaly than far less disputable land+sea satellite record.
Aerosols aren’t doing more than models assume. CO2 is doing less than models assume. The climate boffin brigade will fight this correction tooth and nail, kicking and screaming all the way, but the truth shall win the day and the truth is greenhouse gases have the expected effect over land but not nearly as much over the ocean due to difference in the way land and ocean surfaces give up their solar heat. Water is a far, far different material than rocks. This should have been obvious all along.
Stephen Wilde says:
October 28, 2011 at 4:11 pm
“Surface tension results in increased viscosity at the surface doesn’t it ?”
Probably depends on who you ask and what you define as the surface and what fluid you’re talking about. For me viscosity is the general ability of the liquid to flow and is the same at all points in the liquid. Surface tension is a surface-only effect that binds the molecules together more tightly at the surface. One might mount some kind defense that surface tension is an increase in viscosity at the surface but I’m not so defensive that I can’t admit I chose the wrong term to describe the effect I had in mind. I had surface tension in mind, I called it viscosity, and that was wrong of me. I don’t make enough errors relative to the speed and volume of my commentary that I have any particular problem admitting and correcting any errors pointed out to me.