Climate scientists and their excuses

Candid Comments From Climate Scientists

By Dr. Roger Pielke Sr.

There is  a news release by Paul Voosen on Greenwire titled

Provoked scientists try to explain lag in global warming (Tuesday, October 25, 2011)

There are some interesting quotes from climate scientists in this article that highlight a large degree of uncertainty with respect to the climate system, and the human role in it, even among scientists closely involved with the IPCC reports.  The long article focuses on the question

 ‘Why, despite steadily accumulating greenhouse gases, did the rise of the planet’s temperature stall for the past decade?”

Interesting quotes and text {rearranged to order the persons’ quoted; I highly recommend reading the entire article  include [highlight added]:

From John Barnes [Barnes’s specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols].

If you look at the last decade of global temperature, it’s not increasing,” Barnes said. “There’s a lot of scatter to it. But the [climate] models go up. And that has to be explained. Why didn’t we warm up?”

Barnes has kept a lonely watch for 20 years [at the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii]. Driving the winding, pothole-strewn road to this government-run lab, he has spent evening after evening waiting for the big one. His specialty is measuring stratospheric aerosols, reflective particles caused by volcanoes that are known to temporarily cool the planet. Only the most violent volcanic eruptions are able to loft emissions above the clouds, scientists thought, and so Barnes, after building the laser, waited for his time.

To this day, there hasn’t been a major volcanic eruption since 1991, when Mount Pinatubo scorched the Philippines, causing the Earth to cool by about a half degree for several years. But Barnes diligently monitored this radio silence, identifying the background level of particles in the stratosphere. And then, sitting in his prefab lab four years ago, not far from where Charles Keeling first made his historic measure of rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, Barnes saw something odd in his aerosol records.

Barnes laments the boggling complexity of separating all the small forcings on the climate. It makes Charles Keeling’s careful work identifying rising CO2 levels seem downright simple.

“It’s really subtle,” he said. “It’s hard to track how much is going into the oceans, because the oceans are soaking up some of the heat. And in a lot of places the measurements just aren’t accurate enough. We do have satellites that can measure the energy budget, but there’s still assumptions there. There’s assumptions about the oceans, because we don’t have a whole lot of measurements in the ocean.”

From Jean-Paul  Vernier

Five years ago, a balloon released over Saharan sands changed Jean-Paul Vernier’s life.

Climbing above the baked sand of Niger, the balloon, rigged to catch aerosols, the melange of natural and man-made particles suspended in the atmosphere, soared above the clouds and into the stratosphere. There, Vernier expected to find clear skies; after all, there had been no eruption like Pinatubo for more than a decade. But he was wrong. Twelve miles up, the balloon discovered a lode of aerosols.

Vernier had found one slice of the trend identified by Barnes at Mauna Loa in Hawaii. It was astonishing. Where could these heat-reflecting aerosols be originating? Vernier was unsure, but Barnes and his team hazarded a guess when announcing their finding. It was, they suggested, a rapidly increasing activity in China that has drawn plenty of alarm.

A French scientist who moved to NASA’s Langley Research Center in Virginia to study aerosols, Vernier, like Barnes, turned toward a laser to understand these rogue sulfates. But rather than using a laser lashed to the ground, he used a laser in space.

The same year as the Niger balloon campaign, NASA had launched a laser-equipped satellite aimed at observing aerosols among the clouds. Vernier and his peers suspected, with enough algorithmic ingenuity, that they could get the laser, CALIPSO, to speak clearly about the stratosphere. The avalanche of data streaming out of the satellite was chaotic — too noisy for Barnes’ taste, when he took a look — but several years on, Vernier had gotten a hold of it. He had found an answer.

Mostly, the aerosols didn’t seem to be China’s fault.

From Kevin Trenberth

The hiatus [in warming] was not unexpected. Variability in the climate can suppress rising temperatures temporarily, though before this decade scientists were uncertain how long such pauses could last. In any case, one decade is not long enough to say anything about human effects on climate; as one forthcoming paper lays out, 17 years is required.

For some scientists, chalking the hiatus up to the planet’s natural variability was enough. Temperatures would soon rise again, driven up inexorably by the ever-thickening blanket thrown on the atmosphere by greenhouse gases. People would forget about it.

But for others, this simple answer was a failure. If scientists were going to attribute the stall to natural variability, they faced a burden to explain, in a precise way, how this variation worked. Without evidence, their statements were no better than the unsubstantiated theories circulated by climate skeptics on the Internet.

“It has always bothered me,” said Kevin Trenberth, head of the climate analysis section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. “Natural variability is not a cause. One has to say what aspect of natural variability.”

Until 2003, scientists had a reasonable understanding where the sun’s trapped heat was going; it was reflected in rising sea levels and temperatures. Since then, however, heat in the upper ocean has barely increased and the rate of sea level rise slowed, while data from a satellite monitoring incoming and outgoing heat — the Earth’s energy budget — found that an ever increasing amount of energy should be trapped on the planet. (Some scientists question relying on this satellite data too heavily, since the observed energy must be drastically revised downward, guided by climate models.) Given this budget ostensibly included the solar cycle and aerosols, something was missing.

Where was the heat going? Trenberth repeated the question time and again.

Recently, working with Gerald Meehl and others, Trenberth proposed one answer. In a paper published last month, they put forward a climate model showing that decade-long pauses in temperature rise, and its attendant missing energy, could arise by the heat sinking into the deep, frigid ocean waters, more than 2,000 feet down. The team used a new model, one prepared for the next U.N. climate assessment; unlike past models, it handles the Pacific’s variability well, which ”seems to be important,” Trenberth said.

“In La Niña, the colder sea surface temperatures in the Pacific mean there is less convective action there — fewer tropical storms, etc., and less clouds, but thus more sun,” he said. “The heat goes into the ocean but gets moved around by the ocean currents. So ironically colder conditions lead to more heat being sequestered.”

It is a compelling illustration of how natural variability, at least in this model, could overcome the influence of increasing greenhouse gases for a decade or more, several scientists said. However, according to one prominent researcher — NASA’s Hansen — it’s a search for an answer that doesn’t need to be solved.

That is because, according to Hansen, there is no missing energy.

Trenberth questions whether the Argo measurements are mature enough to tell as definite a story as Hansen lays out. He has seen many discrepancies among analyses of the data, and there are still “issues of missing and erroneous data and calibration,” he said. The Argo floats are valuable, he added, but “they’re not there yet.”

From Susan Solomon

“What’s really been exciting to me about this last 10-year period is that it has made people think about decadal variability much more carefully than they probably have before,” said Susan Solomon, an atmospheric chemist and former lead author of the United Nations’ climate change report, during a recent visit to MIT. “And that’s all good. There is no silver bullet. In this case, it’s four pieces or five pieces of silver buckshot.”

Already Solomon had shown that between 2000 and 2009, the amount of water vapor in the stratosphere declined by about 10 percent. This decline, caused either by natural variability — perhaps related to El Niño — or as a feedback to climate change, likely countered 25 percent of the warming that would have been caused by rising greenhouse gases. (Some scientists have found that estimate to be high.) Now, another dynamic seemed to be playing out above the clouds.

In a paper published this summer, Solomon, Vernier and others brought these discrete facts to their conclusion, estimating that these aerosols caused a cooling trend of 0.07 degrees Celsius over the past decade. Like the water vapor, it was not a single answer, but it was a small player. These are the type of low-grade influences that future climate models will have to incorporate, Livermore’s Santer said.

Solomon was surprised to see Vernier’s work. She remembered the Soufrière eruption, thinking “that one’s never going to make it into the stratosphere.” The received wisdom then quickly changed. ”You can actually see that all these little eruptions, which we thought didn’t matter, were mattering,” she said.

From Jim Hansen

These revelations are prompting the science’s biggest names to change their views.

Indeed, the most important outcome from the energy hunt may be that researchers are chronically underestimating air pollution’s reflective effect, said NASA’s James Hansen, head of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

Recent data has forced him to revise his views on how much of the sun’s energy is stored in the oceans, committing the planet to warming. Instead, he says, air pollution from fossil fuel burning, directly and indirectly, has been masking greenhouse warming more than anyone knew.

It was in no “way affected by the nonsensical statements of contrarians,” Hansen said. “These are fundamental matters that the science has always been focused on. The problem has been the absence of [scientific] observations.”

NASA’s Hansen disputes that worry about skeptics drove climate scientists to ignore the sun’s climate influence. His team, he said, has “always included solar forcing based on observations and Judith’s estimates for the period prior to accurate observations.”

“That makes the sun a bit more important, because the solar variability modulates the net planetary energy imbalance,” Hansen said. “But the solar forcing is too small to make the net imbalance negative, i.e., solar variations are not going to cause global cooling.”

“Unfortunately, when we focus on volcanic aerosol forcing, solar forcing and stratospheric water vapor changes, it is a case of looking for our lost keys under the streetlight,” Hansen said. “What we need to look at is the tropospheric aerosol forcing, but it is not under the street light.”

“I suspect that there has been increased aerosols with the surge in coal use over the past half decade or so,” he said. “There is semi-quantitative evidence of that in the regions where it is expected. Unfortunately, the problem is that we are not measuring aerosols well enough to determine their forcing and how it is changing.”

More fundamentally, the Argo probe data has prompted Hansen to revise his understanding of how the climate works in a fundamental way, a change he lays out in a sure-to-be-controversial paper to be published later this year.

For decades, scientists have known that most of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases was going into the ocean, not the atmosphere; as a result, even if emissions stopped tomorrow, they said, the atmosphere would continue to warm as it sought balance with the overheated oceans. In a term Hansen coined, this extra warming would be “in the pipeline,” its effects lingering for years and years. But exactly how much warming would be in the pipeline depended on how efficiently heat mixed down into the oceans.

Hansen now believes he has an answer: All the climate models, compared to the Argo data and a tracer study soon to be released by several NASA peers, exaggerate how efficiently the ocean mixes heat into its recesses. Their unanimity in this efficient mixing could be due to some shared ancestry in their code. Whatever the case, it means that climate models have been overestimating the amount of energy in the climate, seeking to match the surface warming that would occur with efficient oceans. They were solving a problem, Hansen says, that didn’t exist.

At first glance, this could easily sound like good news, if true. But it’s not.

“Less efficient mixing, other things being equal, would mean that there is less warming ‘in the pipeline,’” Hansen said. “But it also implies that the negative aerosol forcing is probably larger than most models assumed. So the Faustian aerosol bargain is probably more of a problem than had been assumed.”

From John Daniel [a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]

When the record came in 1998, though, scientists faltered. It’s a pattern often seen with high temperatures. They cut out too much nuance, said John Daniel, a researcher at the Earth System Research Lab of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

“We make a mistake, anytime the temperature goes up, you imply this is due to global warming,” he said. “If you make a big deal about every time it goes up, it seems like you should make a big deal about every time it goes down.”

From Ben Santer

For a decade, that’s exactly what happened. Skeptics made exaggerated claims about “global cooling,” pointing to 1998. (For one representative example, two years ago columnist George Will referred to 1998 as warming’s “apogee.”) Scientists had to play defense, said Ben Santer, a climate modeler at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

“This no-warming-since-1998 discussion has prompted people to think about the why and try to understand the why,” Santer said. “But it’s also prompted people to correct these incorrect claims.”

“Susan’s stuff is particularly important,” Santer said. “Even if you have the hypothetical perfect model, if you leave out the wrong forcings, you will get the wrong answer.”

From Judith Lean

The answer to the hiatus, according to Judith Lean, is all in the stars. Or rather, one star.

Only recently have climate modelers followed how that 0.1 percent can influence the world’s climate over decade-long spans. (According to best estimates, it gooses temperatures by 0.1 degrees Celsius.) Before then, the sun, to quote the late comedian Rodney Dangerfield, got no respect, according to Lean, a voluble solar scientist working out of the the space science division of the Naval Research Laboratory, a radar-bedecked facility tucked away down in the southwest tail of Washington, D.C.

Climate models failed to reflect the sun’s cyclical influence on the climate and “that has led to a sense that the sun isn’t a player,” Lean said. “And that they have to absolutely prove that it’s not a player.”

According to Lean, the combination of multiple La Niñas and the solar minimum, bottoming out for an unusually extended time in 2008 from its peak in 2001, are all that’s needed to cancel out the increased warming from rising greenhouse gases. Now that the sun has begun to gain in activity again, Lean suspects that temperatures will rise in parallel as the sun peaks around 2014.

This consistent trend has prompted Lean to take a rare step for a climate scientist: She’s made a short-term prediction. By 2014, she projects global surface temperatures to increase by 0.14 degrees Celsius, she says, driven by human warming and the sun.

From Graeme Stephens

Over the past decade, for the first time, scientists have had access to reliable measures of the ocean’s deep heat, down to 5,000 feet below sea level, through the Argo network, a collection of several thousand robotic probes that, every few days, float up and down through the water column. This led Hansen to conclude that net energy imbalance was, to be briefly technical, 0.6 watts per square meter, rather than more than 1 watt per square meter, as some had argued.

(Recently, the satellite group measuring the energy imbalance has revised its figure, which now sits at 0.6 watts, matching Hansen’s estimate, according to Graeme Stephens, the head of NASA’s Cloudsat mission. It suggests there isn’t a missing energy. Trenberth disagrees with this analysis, and it’s likely to be a question of ongoing debate.)

From Robert Kaufmann

This past summer, Robert Kaufmann, the BU geographer, made waves when he released a modeling study suggesting that the hiatus in warming could be due entirely to El Niño and increased sulfates from China’s coal burning. While the figures Kaufmann used for the study were based on the country’s coal combustion, and not actual emissions — a big point of uncertainty — many scientists saw some truth in his assertions.

From Martin Wild

During the 1980s and ’90s, the rapid decline of air pollution in the United States and Europe dominated the world’s aerosol trends. While those emissions have continued to decline in the West, returns, from a brightening standpoint, have diminished, just as coal combustion ramped up in Asia. It’s not that the world is getting dimmer again; it’s that it’s no longer getting brighter.

“It’s not an obvious overall trend anymore,” said Martin Wild, a lead author of the United Nations’ next climate assessment at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. But, he added, “it fits quite well with [coal power] generation. For me, it’s quite striking that it seems to fit quite nicely. But it could still be by chance.”

From Daniel Jacobs

Kaufmann’s findings may only be relevant for so long. Since 2006, China has begun to mandate scrubbers for its coal-fired power plants, though it is uncertain how often the scrubbers, even when installed, are operated. But change is coming, said Daniel Jacob, an atmospheric chemist at Harvard University.

“The sulfate sources have been leveling off, because they’ve been starting to put serious emission controls on their power plants,” Jacob said. “It’s interesting. When you look at the future emission scenarios from the [next U.N. climate report], you see SO2 emissions dropping like a rock, even in the coming decades. Because basically China is going to have to do something about its public health problem.”

The end of the article highlights the developing debate among even these scientists.

“….many of the scientists sorting out the warming hiatus disagree with one another – in a chummy, scholarly way. Judith Lean, the solar scientist, finds Kaufmann’s work unpersuasive and unnecessarily critical of China. Kaufmann finds Solomon’s stratosphere studies lacking in evidence. Hansen and Trenberth can’t agree on a budget.

It seems staggering, then, that in a few years’ time a new consensus will form for the next U.N. climate change report. But it will, and lurking beneath it will remain, as always, the churning theories and rivalries, the questions, the grist of scientific life.

So, in the end, can anyone say explicitly what caused the warming hiatus?

“All of these things contribute to the relative muted warming,” Livermore’s Santer said. “The difficultly is figuring out the relative contribution of these things. You can’t do that without systematic modeling and experimentation. I would hope someone will do that.”

Barnes, for his part, would love to separate whether any background aerosols he found tucked away in the stratosphere came from Chinese coal burning. It is difficult to figure out, but he has some hope it could happen.

“Maybe when coal burning triples,” he said, “then we might sort it out.”

These extracts from the Greenwire article illustrate why the climate system is not yet well understood. The science is NOT solved.

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October 28, 2011 4:59 pm

I agree with Dave Springer’s comment @October 28, 2011 at 3:13 pm 100%. I’ve been saying the same thing for the last couple of years, when it became apparent that the rise in CO2 was not causing any harm.
stevo says “what is counteracting exactly all of the known varying external factors, to leave behind the supposed warming with no cause?”
If we knew all the causes of global ΔT there would be no need to discuss the situation. But we don’t even know if we know all the forcings and feedbacks. What we do know is that CO2 has a much smaller effect than has been claimed by the IPCC, Mann, Trenberth, Hansen, and their clique. As it turns out, CO2 is harmless and beneficial. More is better. The earth is currently starved of atmospheric CO2.

Matt G
October 28, 2011 5:43 pm

Dave Springer says:
October 28, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Good post, covers this issue nicely.
I mentioned a while ago on a different thread (could be last year) that observed mechanisms between land and water behave much different. The doubling of CO2 (~1c) really only roughly applies to land and with the planet ~71 percent water. This estimation is around 180 percent too high because the ocean can’t have any further greenhouse effect with saturated water vapour behaving like the descriptions of your post. This was then the reason I did conclude that warming expected over the past decade was much less, especially with change in global cloud levels too.
The rise in global temperatures previously would have been also much less if global cloud levels had not declined 5 percent since 1983 until 2001. Still not sure what caused this cloud albedo decline, but based on the CO2 conjecture mentioned on previous threads this cannot have been caused by CO2. (ie higher temperatures causing more water vapour and clouds – neither true based on this recent warming period at global levels)

stevo
October 28, 2011 6:56 pm

phlogiston – so your point is that because there are unanswered questions in climate studies, therefore CO2 can’t be a problem? Non sequitur.
Smokey – “What we do know is that CO2 has a much smaller effect” – you might think you know that. In the real world it is not turning out that way.

October 28, 2011 7:54 pm

stevo says:
” ‘What we do know is that CO2 has a much smaller effect’ – you might think you know that. In the real world it is not turning out that way.”
Mere opinion, and wrong opinion at that. Provide empirical evidence ‘in the real world’ showing testable, falsifiable global harm from the rise in CO2… or admit that CO2 is harmless.
This is science we’re discussing, stevo, not astrology.

Jer0me
October 28, 2011 8:05 pm

What I find amazing is that ‘scientists’ can make statements like this:

“In La Niña, the colder sea surface temperatures in the Pacific mean there is less convective action there — fewer tropical storms, etc., and less clouds, but thus more sun,” he said. “The heat goes into the ocean but gets moved around by the ocean currents. So ironically colder conditions lead to more heat being sequestered.”

and still deny all possibility that the feedbacks in the climate are generally negative. In simple terms, if a cooling causes greater energy to reach the surface, surely warming will cause less energy to reach the surface.

mike g
October 28, 2011 8:07 pm

What I didn’t see was an admission that the reason they religiously denied solar influence was not being willing to concede that ANY of the cyclical rise since the 70’s was do to the unusually active sun.

jorgekafkazar
October 28, 2011 8:30 pm

Very nice post, Dr. Pielke! It’s amusing to see the little dance that Warmistas do to get around facts. Various metaphors suggest themselves, but I’ll stick with:
“When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.”

October 28, 2011 9:03 pm

It was in no “way affected by the nonsensical statements of contrarians,” Hansen said. “These are fundamental matters that the science has always been focused on. The problem has been the absence of [scientific] observations.”
You know those plaques that have funny sayings on them and get hung in the bathroom? I’m talking about things like, “The length of a minute depends on which side of the bathroom door you’re on,” or “Don’t throw cigarette butts into the toilet — it makes them soggy and hard to light,” and similar witticisms. Some of them are clever, but even the best are really only amusing for a week or so at best, yet they hang around for years.
So I want to turn the Hansen quote into a humour plaque for my bathroom wall, because I’m going to be laughing at that one for a long time.

lrshultis
October 28, 2011 10:23 pm

Dave Springer:
“The point I made is unchanged by the error in terminology. Surface tension is the dominant force in the skin layer.”
Surface tension is the result of hydrogen bonding which is the attractive force between the polar H2O molecules. Evaporation is the result of photon absorption which does work in eventually increasing molecular vibration great enough to break molecules loose by breaking the hydrogen bonds. That is an endothermic process with the energy (latent heat of about 2260 kJ/kg) stored in vibrating and wiggling covalent bonds and rotations of the H2O gas molecules. When rain drops form, hydrogen bonds again form in an exothermic reaction giving off the stored latent heat. Evaporation occurs as long as there is a surface layer of liquid water regardless of any incident radiation. Richard Feynman said that the molecules jiggle a lot and enough eventually hit a surface molecule with enough momentum to break the bonding.
As for mixing, isn’t a wave just a mass of water pushed down by a force transferring water to an adjacent place thus raising the height of that water. That would imply that the mixing is done in that transfer back and forth of water. As you say it is all done below the trough, but it is the surface water that is pushed down under the uprising part of the wave and possibly mixes. How far down the mixing goes or whether it is just the surface water to the depth of the trough that gets mixed or that it just gushes back and forth without mixing is the question? Some mixing occurs due to wind breaking the waves tops into spray.

Stephen Wilde
October 29, 2011 1:55 am

“Surface microlayer of the ocean averages 3-5mm deep and is colder than the water below it by 1C with a gradient of 2-5C/cm (Hunarzhua 1977).”
Thanks Dave,
All the comments I have seen about that layer so far suggest only 1mm deep and only 0.3C cooler. If it is actually 3-5 mm deep and 1C cooler that that suits me just fine given the important role that I have attributed to it in my writings.
I have suggested thet the ocean equilibrium temperature is set by energy exchanges at the junction between the bottom of that layer and the ocean bulk below.
The layer itself provides a buffer between the energy exchange at that point and the energy exchange where the top of that layer meets the atmosphere above.
In effect, unless events in the air can alter the gradient through that layer, the ocean bulk temperature cannot change from anything that happens in the air.
I aver that changes in the rate of evaporation from the top always prevent changes in the air from affecting the gradient through the layer hence the ocean skin theory fails and downwelling IR cannot alter the rate of energy flow from oceans to air. Thus the equilibrium temperature of the whole oceanic system remains independent of events that are limited solely to the air.
Instead the surface air pressure distribution shifts just a miniscule fraction that could not be measured against natural changes induced by sun and oceans.
It think the logic is incontrovertible and fits observations perfectly.

Dave Springer
October 29, 2011 1:55 am

lrshultis says:
October 28, 2011 at 10:23 pm
I’m not sure what your point is about evaporation. It occurs all the time but it happens faster if more energy is added to the surface molecules. Condensation also happens all the time but it happens faster if energy is removed. If the air is saturated an equilibrium is reached where rate of evaporation equals rate of condensation. With all due respect to Feynman, and lurking pedants notwithstanding, we’re interested in the net result not quantum accounting trivia. The net result is that evaporation effectively halts when the air becomes saturated.
Wave mixing goes very deep but it excludes the surface water to the depth of the trough. Winds whipping the ocean into froth or breaking tops out to sea to any large degree is the exception not the rule. Rainfall is also the exception not the rule. In either case the situation becomes complicated by the fact that instead of DLR having a free path from sky to ocean surface it now has to traverse an obstacle course of liquid water droplets in the path. Any water droplet will of course absorb any impinging DLR because water is quite opaque to far infrared and ostensibly re-radiate half of the DLR upward again. At any rate the rule is that the surface micro layer does not mix downward so a rule then follows that downwelling far infrared from greenhouse gases do not effect temperature change below the surface micro layer but rather raise the average evaporation rate. There are exceptions to the rule I’m sure but that doesn’t nullify the general statement that GHGs have less effect over ocean than over land because rocks don’t evaporate.

Stephen Wilde
October 29, 2011 2:12 am

“The rise in global temperatures previously would have been also much less if global cloud levels had not declined 5 percent since 1983 until 2001. Still not sure what caused this cloud albedo decline”
The surface air pressure distribution shifted bodily poleward including the jet stream paths which became more zonal.
Due to the shape of the Earth more poleward and more zonal results in shorter tracks around the globe with less air mass mixing and so less global cloudiness. That increases solar input to the oceans for a warming effect overall which alters the relative balance between El Nino and La Nina which already respond to ocean cycling on a 60 year timescale.
On average that increasing zonality and poleward drift has been going on since the LIA with the consequences we observe.
Since about 2000 the process has been going into reverse again (possibly temporarily) despite increasing CO2 emissions. Cloudiness has increased with more meridional jets and less energy entering the oceans as per the ARGO results. La Nina is regaining dominance over El Nino.
I aver that the primary cause of the surface air pressure drifting latitudinally is solar. The level of solar activity acts via chemical processes involving ozone to alter the intensity of the polar vortices which allows the latitudinal shifts in the surface pressure distribution.
There is also a countervailing process from ocean cycles but the solar efferct is dominant in the long term because the solar effects fuel the ocean cycle too.
Climate change is the resulting interaction between top down solar and bottom up oceanic variability.
In comparison, changes in the GHG levels from human activity are insignificant because GHGs alter the surface pressure distribution too but too little to ever notice or measure. Especially since water vapour is the main GHG and the system keeps humidity very stable, most changes in CO2 are natural and so the human contribution to all GHGs is trivial.

son of mulder
October 29, 2011 3:25 am

So how much warming did the various western cleaner air activities cause in 60’s-90’s and how much cooling did the increase in Asian coal burning cause in the last 10 years?

stevo
October 29, 2011 4:34 am

Ah yes Smokey. Use a vague meaningless word like “harm” and see if that leads to a sensible discussion. Define harm, please.

October 29, 2011 7:51 am

stevo, you’re making no sense. It is up to you to define “harm”, per the scientific method, if you can.
The fact is that more CO2 is harmless. Falsify that… if you can.

James Macdonald
October 29, 2011 10:44 am

MKelly- Thanks for the link to a great article
http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global warming-01.html

James Macdonald
October 29, 2011 10:48 am
Eric Anderson
October 29, 2011 12:58 pm

Dave Springer says:
October 27, 2011 at 12:19 pm
doug s says:
October 27, 2011 at 9:56 am
“Doesn’t a great deal of the energy get turned into work? ”
No. And in the work you’re thinking of (putting water and air in motion) the kinetic energy gets converted back to heat energy very quickly via friction.
Dave, let me make sure I’m understanding this properly. Are you suggesting that we can move a physical object from point A to point B without any net use of energy? That would be quite remarkable. It seems that there is energy used in moving an object from point A to point B that can never be recaptured via friction or even by a recapture of the kinetic energy. If I move a pile of bricks from point A to point B, are you suggesting that there has there been no net energy used to do the work of moving the pile of bricks? Seems strange to me.
Let’s look at a different example that makes it easier to recapture energy (in this case, kinetic): say a car that has been driven to a certain speed and then the engine cut. In that case the kinetic energy will continue to carry the car a certain distance. If we wanted to capture some of that kinetic energy, we could do so by slowing down the car through a mechanism that captures the energy (Prius braking, for example). However, if we wanted to capture *all* of the kinetic energy that was available at the point the engine was cut, it seems the *only* way we could do so would be to completely remove all the kinetic energy, in which case, by definition, the car would not have any more kinetic energy to move and would therefore not move at all. Stated in other terms, the only way to “recapture” all the energy used in moving an object from point A to point B would be to not move the object from point A to point B.
What am I missing?

October 29, 2011 2:45 pm

stevo says:
“Define harm…”
There is no harm. Of any kind; CO2 is harmless at current and projected levels. If you believe you can show any quantifiable global damage specifically due to the rise in harmless, beneficial CO2, produce it. Make sure it’s testable evidence per the scientific method; this isn’t the Skeptical Pseudo-Science nonsense blog. This is the internet’s “Best Science” site. Baseless opinions don’t count for much here.
stevo continues his alarmism:
” ‘Smokey – What we do know is that CO2 has a much smaller effect’ – you might think you know that. In the real world it is not turning out that way.”
Get a clue.

October 29, 2011 8:44 pm

Dave Springer;
Instead of making things up why not find the facts first so you don’t embarrass yourself quite so
much with the uneducated rambling.

and
Buy a clue Hoffer. And while you’re at it buy two of them and give one to your BFF Willis.
Sir,
Your inability to discuss much of anything in a civil manner speaks volumes about you. It seems you are under the impression that insults, bluster, bullying, ad hominem attacks and general rude remarks somehow bolster your position. Your response amounts very little more than that plus a link to an article that you claim shows I am wrong. Did you read it?
From the article YOU linked to on what happens when large rain drops hit the surface:
Air bubbles produced by rain drops sink to a depth of 4 cm
There is no surface tension in this case, it is too turbulent for surface tension to form. Further, the air bubbles are distributed with highest concentration at the very top and decreasing concentration down to as much as 4 cm. LW travels at the speed of light. Do you seriously contend that this condition does not provide for opportunities for LW photons to penetrate beyond the first few millimeters?
Further, from the article you linked to:
When the wind speed in the surface layer is 8m/S, 4% of the total ocean surface will be covered by foam
Do you seriously contend that foam absorbs LW in the same manner as calm sea surface? Nonsense. The skin wall of a bubble is so thin that it cannot absorb the LW as the surface layer of calm water can. Want proof? Ever blow soap bubbles? If the water absorbed the LW 100%, the bubble would instantly burst as the skin evaporated. But it doesn’t, and the foam on rough seas doesn’t go poof and disappear either. The LW is capable of passing THROUGH the bubbles and is then absorbed… at some point beneath them. Even if it causes evaporation of the water at THAT point, that is water vapour trapped UNDER the foam.
Going further in that article discussing the mixing that occurrs due to a variety of processes that occurr during heavy rain, it says:
The ocurrence of air bubble contribute to high concentrations of organic matter in the microlayer, which are 10 times greater than in seawater
So…we have LW penetrating the microlayer and in addition to being absorbed by the water, it can also be asborbed by organic matter in the microlayer, of which, according to your reference, there is ten times as much of as during a calm sea. They may warm up of course, but they won’t turn into vapour either, they stay, along with the energy they absorbed from LW, right there in the water. Check out the next paragraph on organic “snow” and how it sinks
to the bottom taking all manner of things, including the LW absorbed, with it.
If you would like, I can refer you to articles on surface tension and how it is different from viscosity, a confused statement you seem to make often. Floating a needle on the top of a glass of still water is what? A grade 3 experiment? Considering your foul mouth and inability to articulate your position without insults, name calling and ignorant remarks, perhaps grade 3 is about your speed?
You may want to look up surfactants and understand them as well, but that’s junior high. Wait, as I recall, there was plenty of name calling to settle arguments in junior high too. Now understanding how power in watts per meter squared of downwelling LW changes due to angle of incidence to an increasingly lower number, that’s high school we’re talking now. Do you think you can be as civil as a high school student? In any event, when wave action is high due to wind, not only is their foam, organic matter in the microlayer, bubbles descending to as much as 4 cm, the wave surface may be as much as 45 degrees or more from the horizontal, meaning that the power distribution of the downward LW is far lower, and hence less likely to cause evaporation before the temperature increase has a chance to move energy via conductance.
Your apology is accepted.

October 29, 2011 8:52 pm

Stephen Wilde;
In effect, unless events in the air can alter the gradient through that layer, the ocean bulk temperature cannot change from anything that happens in the air.>>>
If you will review the article that Dave Springer so kindly linked to in his rant at me, you will see that this is not so. Wind and rain and the resulting interaction with everything from the sea surface to sediments from the bottom get pulled into the picture and change completely the energy exchange between the air, surface layer, and the water below.
Excellent article Dave Springer, thanks!

Paul R
October 29, 2011 9:50 pm

Or, “What’s red and white outside, and grey on the inside?”.
Campbell’s Cream of Elephant Soup”
“Why do ducks have webbed feet?”
“To stamp out forest fires”
“Why do elephants have flat feet?”
“To stamp out burning ducks!”

October 29, 2011 11:25 pm

Why did the frog cross the road?
Because he was stapled to a chicken.
What has this to do with elephants?
Nothing. why do you ask?

October 30, 2011 3:18 am

Paul R says:
October 29, 2011 at 9:50 pm
………
davidmhoffer says:
October 29, 2011 at 11:25 pm
……….
WTF 😮 ❓
This article’s debate is obviously exhausted 😆

Stephen Wilde
October 31, 2011 9:43 am

davidmhoffer
I’ve reviewed that article, and your comments, as suggested but for various reasons I don’t share your opinion that the phenomena you refer to make a significant difference when averaged globally.
There are factors that offset the effects you rely on such as increased upward convection if any energy does get past the topmost layer and then the issue of increased surface area when the surface area is disturbed which is known to increase the rate of evaporation too.
So I still think that Dave Springer and I are correct. Downward IR makes zero difference to the energy content of the ocean bulk.