Monckton's letter to the journal Remote Sensing

Christopher Monckton writes in email:

I sent the attached commentary to the journal a week back and have not had so much as an acknowledgement. So do feel free to use it.

It is reproduced below. Readers may recall of the editor resignation imbroglio over the journal Remote Sensing publishing Spencer-Braswell 2011 – Anthony

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Commentary

Empirical determination of climate sensitivity

Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Reliable empirical determination of climate sensitivity is limited by uncertainties in the observations [1] as well as in climate theory. A fortiori, reliable numerical determination of sensitivity by general-circulation models is hindered not only by these uncertainties but also by difficulties inherent in modeling the coupled, non-linear, mathematically-chaotic climate object [2-4]. Of the ten papers [5-14] cited in [1] as attempting to determine climate sensitivity empirically as opposed to numerically, four concur with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [4] in finding sensitivity high: in [5], for instance, it is suggested that sensitivities >10 K cannot be ruled out. Two of the ten papers [13, 14] are criticisms of [7, 12], implying high sensitivity. The remaining four papers [7, 10-12] argue for low sensitivity: typically ~1 K per CO2 doubling, implying net-negative temperature feedbacks.

In this lively debate, further papers explicitly finding sensitivity low are [15], where an equilibrium sensitivity 1.1 K was determined as the quotient of the relaxation time-constant of the climate system and the heat capacity of the global ocean, found by regression of ocean heat content; [16], which found that sensitivities over various recent and paleoclimatic periods cohere at 1-1.7 K if an amplification of solar forcing owing to cosmic-ray displacement is posited, but not otherwise; [17], where a reanalysis of the NCEP tropospheric humidity data showed significantly negative zonal annual mean specific humidity at all altitudes >850 hPa, implying that the long-term water-vapor feedback is negative and that equilibrium sensitivity is ~1 K; and [18], where the observed rate of decrease in aerosol optical depth, particularly in the United States and Europe, was found to have contributed a strong positive forcing, requiring that canonical equilibrium climate sensitivity be halved to 1-1.8 K.

In [15-18] the sensitivities ~1 K were declared explicitly. However, several papers contain internal, unstated evidence for low climate sensitivity. For instance, [19] displays a flow-diagram for the energy budget of the Earth and its atmosphere, such that incoming and outgoing fluxes are shown to balance at the surface. The diagram shows surface radiation as 390 W m–2, corresponding to a blackbody emission at 288 K, equivalent to today’s mean surface temperature 15 °C. If the surface radiative flux were indeed the blackbody flux of 390 W m–2, then by differentiation of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer the implicit value of the Planck parameter λ0 would be ΔT /ΔF = T/4(F+78+24) = 0.15 K W–1 m2 (after including 78 W m–2 for evapo-transpiration and 24 W m–2 for thermal convection), whereupon, assuming feedbacks summing to the IPCC’s implicit central estimate 2.1 W m–2 K–1, equilibrium climate sensitivity ΔT2x = ΔF2x λ0 (1 – 2.1 λ0)–1 = 3.7(0.15)(1.5) = 0.8 K.

There is a further, and important, indication of low climate sensitivity in [19], where the total radiative forcing from the five principal greenhouse gases (H2O, CO2, CH4, O3, and N2O) in the entire atmosphere is given as 125 W m–2 in clear skies and 86 W m–2 in cloudy skies, giving ~101 W m–2 forcing overall. Holding insolation and albedo constant ad experimentum, the difference between surface temperatures with and without the atmosphere is readily established as 288 – 255 = 33 K, so that, assuming that any other forcings are comparatively insignificant, the climate sensitivity of the whole atmosphere is simply 3.7(33/101) = 1.2 K.

Much has been written [e.g. 34-36] of the discrepancy between modeled and observed rates of warming in the tropical mid-troposphere. The theory of the moist adiabat, supported by the models, holds that there should be 2.5-3 times as much warming in the tropical mid-troposphere as at the surface. However, [20], cited with approval in [4], regards the existence of the tropical mid-troposphere “hot-spot” as a fingerprint of anthropogenic warming. If so, in all but one of the dozen radiosonde and satellite datasets of tropical mid-troposphere temperature, the fingerprint is absent, indicating that the IPCC’s current central estimate of climate sensitivity should be divided by 2.5-3, giving an equilibrium sensitivity ~1 K.

An intriguing discrepancy between modeled and observed rates of evaporation from the surface was reported by [21]. The models predict evaporation ΔE/ΔT = 1-3% per Kelvin of surface warming: observations, however, indicate that the true value is close to 6%. The equilibrium-sensitivity parameter λ is directly determinable from the rate of change in evaporation expressed as a percentage per Kelvin of surface warming, thus: λ = (0.8 ΔE/ΔT)–1. This result, from [22], may be verified by plugging the model-projected 1-3% K–1 into the equation, yielding λ on [0.42, 1.25] and consequently a climate sensitivity on [1.5, 4.5] K, precisely the model-derived values that the IPCC projects. However, the measured 5.7% K–1 indicates λ = 0.22 and equilibrium sensitivity 0.8 K.

It is sometimes said that we are conducting an experiment on the only planet we have. We have been conducting that experiment with increasing vigor for a quarter of a millennium. Some results are by now available. In [23], an assessment of all greenhouse-gas forcings since 1750 was presented. The total is 3.1 W m–2. From this, the net-negative non-greenhouse-gas forcings of 1.1 W m–2 given in [4] are deducted to give a net forcing from all sources of ~2 W m–2 over the period. Warming from 1750-1984 was 0.5 K [24], with another 0.3 K since then [25], making 0.8 K in all, not inconsistent with the 0.9 K indicated in [26-28]. Then the climate sensitivity over the period, long enough for feedbacks to have acted, is (5.35 ln 2)(0.8/2) = 1.5 K, on the assumption that all the warming over the period was anthropogenic. A similar analysis applied to the data since 1950 produces a further sensitivity ~1 K.

More simply still, the most rapid supra-decadal rate of warming since the global instrumental record [24] began was equivalent to 0.16 K/decade. This rate was observed from 1860-1880, 1910-1940, and 1976-2001, since when there has been no warming. There are no statistically-significant differences between the warming rates over these three periods, which between them account for half of the record. On the assumption that in the next nine decades what has been the maximum supra-decadal warming rate becomes the mean rate, climate warming to 2100 will be 1.4 K.

Another simple method is merely to project to 2100 the linear warming rate since 1950, when greenhouse-gas emissions first became significant. This is legitimate, since [4] expects CO2 concentration to rise near-exponentially, but the consequent forcing is logarithmic. In that event, once again the centennial warming will be 1.2 K.

These four sensitivities ~ 1 K derived from the temperature record are of course transient sensitivities: but, since equilibrium will not be reached for 1000-3000 years [29], it is only the transient sensitivity that is policy-relevant. In any event, on the assumption that approaching half of the warming since 1750 may have been natural, equilibrium sensitivities ~1 K are indicated.

Resolution of the startling discrepancy between the low-sensitivity and high-sensitivity cases is of the first importance. The literature contains much explicit and implicit evidence for low as well as high sensitivity, and the observed record of temperature change – to date, at any rate – coheres remarkably with the low-sensitivity findings. Until long enough periods of reliable data are available both to the empiricists and to the modelers, neither group will be able to provide a definitive, widely-accepted interval for climate sensitivity.

Two conclusions follow. First, given the uncertainties in the empirical method and the still greater uncertainties inherent in the numerical method, a theoretical approach should be considered. Climate sensitivity to any forcing is the product of three parameters: the forcing itself, the Planck sensitivity parameter λ0, and the overall feedback gain factor [30]. Though the CO2 forcing cannot be quantified directly by measurement in the laboratory, where it is difficult to simulate non-radiative transports, the current value 5.35 times the logarithm of the proportionate change in CO2 concentration, or 3.7 W m–2 (some 15% below the value in [31]), is generally accepted as likely to be correct. Likewise, the value of λ0 is clear: it is the first differential of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer at the characteristic-emission altitude, where incoming and outgoing radiative fluxes are by definition identical, augmented by ~17% to allow for latitudinal variation.

The central uncertainty in the debate about climate sensitivity, therefore, resides in the value of the last of the three parameters – the overall feedback gain factor G = (1 – λ0 f)–1, where f is the sum of all individual positive and negative feedbacks and g = λ0 f is the closed-loop gain. Process engineers designing electronic circuits customarily constrain g to a maximum value +0.01 to ensure that conditions leading to runaway feedback do not occur. Above 0.01, or at maximum 0.1, there is a danger that defective components, errors in assembly, and the circumstances of use can conspire to cause runaway feedback that damages or even destroys the circuit.

The climate is an object on which feedbacks operate. Yet in the past 750 Ma [32] absolute mean global surface temperature has not varied by more than 8 K, or 3%, either side of the long-run mean. Similar results were separately obtained for the past 65 Ma [33]. It is most unlikely, therefore, that the loop gain g in the climate object exceeds 0.1. However, the IPCC’s interval of climate sensitivities, [2, 6.4] K, implies a loop gain on [0.4, 0.8], an interval so far above 0.1 that runaway feedback would have occurred at some point in the geological record. Yet there is no sign that any such event has ever occurred. Given this significant theoretical constraint on g, equilibrium climate sensitivity cannot in any event exceed 1.2 K.

The second conclusion is related to the first. It is that, in accordance with the fundamental constraint that theory dictates, climate sensitivities attained by a variety of methods appear to cohere at ~1 K per CO2 doubling, not the far higher values offered by the high-sensitivity community. As we have seen, in six papers [11-12, 15-18], climate sensitivity is explicitly stated to be ~1 K; in a further three [19-21], by four distinct methods, implicit sensitivity is found to be ~1 K; by four further methods applied to the recent global temperature record, sensitivity seems to be ~1 K; and the coherence of these results tends to confirm the theoretical argument that the feedback loop gain, and therefore climate sensitivity, cannot be strongly positive, providing a 15th and definitive indication that sensitivity is ~1 K. Since no single method is likely to find favor with all, a coherence of multiple empirical and theoretical methods such as that which has been sketched here may eventually decide the vexed climate-sensitivity question.

Remote Sensing, therefore, was right to publish [12], authored by two of the world’s foremost experts on the design and operation of satellite remote-sensing systems and on the interpretation of the results. The authors stand in a long and respectable tradition of reassessing not only the values of individual temperature feedbacks but of their mutually-amplified aggregate. Their results suggest that temperature feedbacks are somewhat net-negative, implying climate sensitivity ~1 K. In the context of the wider evidence considered in outline here, they may be right.

References

  1. Trenberth, K.E.; Fasullo, J.T.; Abraham, J.P. Issues in Establishing Climate Sensitivity in Recent Studies, Remote Sens. 2011, 3, 2051-2056; doi: 10.3390/rs3092051.
  2. Lorenz, E.N. Deterministic nonperiodic flow, J. Atmos. Sci. 1963, 20, 130-141.
  3. Giorgi, F. Climate Change Prediction, Climatic Change 2005, 73, 239-265; doi: 10.1007/s10584-005-6857-4.
  4. IPCC. Climate Change 2007: the Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. [Solomon, S.; Qin, D.; Manning, M.; Chen, Z.,; Marquis, M.; Avery, K.B.; Tignor, M.; Miller, H.L. (eds.)], Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK, 2007, §14.2.2.2.
  5. Gregory, J.M.; Ingram, W.J.; Palmer, M.A.; Jones, G.S.; Stott, P.A.; Thorpe, R.B.; Lowe, J.A.; Johns, T.C.; Williams, K.D. A new method for diagnosing radiative forcing and climate sensitivity. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2004, 31, L03205.
  6. Forster, P.M.F.; Gregory, J.M. The climate sensitivity and its components diagnosed from earth radiation budget data. J. Climate 2006, 19, 39-52.
  7. Spencer, R.W.; Braswell, W.D. On the diagnosis of radiative feedback in the presence of unknown radiative forcing. J. Geophys. Res. 2010, 115, D16109.
  8. Murphy, D.M.; Solomon, S.; Portmann, R.W.; Rosenlof, K.H.; Forster, P.M.; Wong, T. An observationally based energy balance for the earth since 1950. J. Geophys. Res. 2009, 114, D17107.
  9. Clement, A.C.; Burgman, R.; Norris, J.R. Observational and model evidence for positive low-level cloud feedback. Science 2009, 325, 460-464.
  10. Lindzen, R.S.; Choi, Y.-S. On the determination of climate feedbacks from erbe data. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2009, 36, L16705.
  11. Lindzen, R.S.; Choi, Y.S. On the observational determination of climate sensitivity and its implications. Asia Pacific J. Atmos. Sci. 2011, 47, 377-390.
  12. Spencer, R.W.; Braswell, W.D. On the misdiagnosis of surface temperature feedbacks from variations in earth’s radiant energy balance. Remote Sens. 2011, 3, 1603-1613.
  13. Dessler, A.E. A determination of the cloud feedback from climate variations over the past decade. Science 2010, 330, 1523-1527.
  14. Dessler, A.E. Cloud variations and the earth’s energy budget. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2011, doi:10.1029/2011GL049236.
  15. Schwartz, S.E. Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of Earth’s climate system. Geophys Res. Lett. 2007.
  16. Shaviv, N. On climate response to changes in the cosmic-ray flux and radiative budget. J. Geophys. Res., 2008, doi:10.1029.
  17. Paltridge, G.; A. Arking; M. Pook. Trends in middle- and upper-level tropospheric humidity from NCEP reanalysis data. Theor. Appl. Climatol. 2009, doi:10.1007/s00704-009-0117-x.
  18. Chylek, P.; U. Lohmann; M. Dubey; M. Mishchenko; R. Kahn; A. Ohmura. Limits on climate sensitivity derived from recent satellite and surface observations. J. Geophys. Res. 2007, 112, D24S04, doi:10.1029/ 2007JD008740.
  19. Kiehl, J.T., & K.E. Trenberth. The Earth’s Radiation Budget. Bull. Am. Meteorol. Soc. 1997, 78, 197-208.
  20. Santer, B.D., et al. Contributions of anthropogenic and natural forcing to recent tropopause height changes. Science 2003, 301, 479–483.
  21. Wentz, F.J.; L. Ricciardulli; K. Hilburn; C. Mears. How much more rain will global warming bring? SciencExpress 2007, 31 May, 1-5, doi:10.1126/ science.1140746.
  22. Lindzen, R.S. Climate v. Climate Alarm, Lecture to the American Chemical Society, 2011 Aug. 28.
  23. Blasing, T.J. Recent greenhouse-gas concentrations), 2011 August; doi: 10.3334/CDIAC/atg.032: http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html.
  24. Hansen, J.; Lacis, A.; Rind A.; Russell, G.; Stone, P.; Fung, I.; Ruedy, R.; Lerner, J. Climate sensitivity: analysis of feedback mechanisms. Meteorological Monographs 1984, 29, 130-163.
  25. HadCRUt3, Monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies, 1850-2011. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt.
  26. Parker, D.E. et al. Monthly mean Central England temperatures, 1974-1991. Int. J. Climatol., 1992a.
  27. Parker, D.E.; Legg, T.P.; Folland, C.K. A new daily Central England Temperature Series, 1772-1991, Int. J. Climatol. 1992b, 12, 317-342.
  28. Parker, D.E.; Horton, E.B. Uncertainties in the Central England Temperature series 1878-2003 and some improvements to the maximum and minimum series, Int. J. Climatol. 2005, 25, 1173-1188.
  29. Solomon, S.; Plattner, G.-K.; Knutti, R.; Friedlingstein, P.. Irreversible climate change due to carbon dioxide emissions. PNAS 2009, 106:6, 1704-1709, doi:10.1073/pnas.0812721106.
  30. Monckton of Brenchley, C. Climate Sensitivity Reconsidered. Physics and Society 2008, 37:3, 6-19.
  31. IPCC. Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change [Houghton, J.T.; Meira Filho, L.G.; Callander, B.A.; Harris, N.; Kattenberg, A.; Maskell, K. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK, 1996, 572 pp.
  32. Scotese, C.R. How global climate has changed through time. 2002, http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm.
  33. Zachos, J.; Pagani, M.; Sloan, L.; Thomas, E.; Billups, K.. Trends, Rhythms and Aberrations in Global Climate 65 Ma to Present. Science 2001, 292, 686-693.
  34. Douglass, D.H.; Pearson, B.D.; Singer, S.F. Altitude dependence of atmospheric temperature trends: climate models versus observation. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2004, 31, L13208, doi: 10.1029/2004GL020103.
  35. Douglass, D.H.; Christy, J.R.; Pearson, B.D.; Singer, S.F. A comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions. Int. J. Climatol. 2007, doi:10.1002/joc.1651.
  36. Santer, B.D.; Thorne, P.W.; Haimberger, L.; Taylor, K.E.; Wigley, T.M.L.; Lanzante, J.R.; Solomon, S.; Free, M.; Gleckler, P.J.; Jones, P.D.; Karl, T.R.; Klein, S.A.; Mears, C.; Nychka, D.; Schmidt, G.A.; Sherwood, S.C.; Wentz, F.J. Consistency of modelled and observed temperature trends in the tropical troposphere. Int. J. Climatol. 2008, doi:1002/joc.1756.

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Gary Swift
September 26, 2011 8:32 am

To John Whitman and Ferd Berpel:
I didn’t say that warming was bad. Please see my previous comments in that regard.
“Gary Swift says:
September 24, 2011 at 12:33 pm
To Craig Goodrich:

Once again, someone is trying to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t even say. I was saying that Monkton’s use of paleoclimate records does not support his claim that catastrphic climate change has not happened in the past. I did not say that mild warming would harm us.”
Why do so many people here seem to think I’m some kind of fool, just because I don’t like the one of the points in the original article?
Here’s Monkton’s statement that I don’t feel comfortable with:
“However, the IPCC’s interval of climate sensitivities, [2, 6.4] K, implies a loop gain on [0.4, 0.8], an interval so far above 0.1 that runaway feedback would have occurred at some point in the geological record. Yet there is no sign that any such event has ever occurred.”
I think he is over-simplifying the problem and I question the use of the loop gain equation in this context. While I do agree that there probably isn’t a greenhouse cliff, I do not agree with this method of trying to prove it. I think there IS a tipping point, but that’s the tipping point between glaciation and interglacial. We’re already past the ‘tipping point’ where the ice melts and life returns to the Earth. His loop gain simplification seems to indicate that the tipping point between glacial and interglacial shouldn’t happen. It obviously did. Once again, I think he’s right in the sense that there is no such thing as a point of no return for warming, but his method seems wrong here.

September 26, 2011 11:52 am

henry@davidmhoffer&others
I do not regard the notion that more CO2 or more GHG’s cause any warming as scientifically proven
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
please enlighten me if you can prove me wrong
It appears to me that some additional warming on top of the natural warming is caused by increasing vegetation which in turn is caused by
1) human intervention (people wanting more trees and forests)
2) increased heat (from the natural warming)
3) increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which is acting as fertilizer/accelerator for growth
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok

Joel Shore
September 26, 2011 2:40 pm

Dave Wendt says:

What few efforts I’ve seen that attempt to empirically quantify the contributions of the various components of the atmosphere to the GHE suggest that the only places on the planet where that condition would apply are at polar latitudes and in high temperate latitudes in the dead of Winter. For most of the planet most of the time it appears likely that H2O is responsible for +95% of DLR and hence of the GHE.

I think this had in fact been quite well-quantified and you are not correct about the radiative effect of CO2. You seem to be trying to get around this now by arguing about where most of the effect occurs, but that is largely irrelevant: How much the temperature changes under climate change is determined mainly by the total radiative balance between the earth and space. The geographical distribution of the temperature changes is not determined primarily by where the small changes in radiative balance occur because the troposphere is a strongly coupled system with lots of convective and advective flows.
So, rather than desperately trying to find a new way by which you might be correct, why don’t you just admit that your original calculation was meaningless because it ignored feedbacks?

Racial biology
Svante Arrhenius was one of several leading Swedish scientists actively engaged in the process leading to the creation in 1922 of The State Institute for Racial Biology in Uppsala, Sweden, which had originally been proposed as a Nobel Institute. Arrhenius was a member of the institute’s board, as he had been in The Swedish Society for Racial Hygiene (Eugenics), founded in 1909.[6]

Arrhenius’s views on such things are irrelevant since we have had over a century to evaluate the extent to which Arrhenius was correct or incorrect in regards to climate change. I do not propose evaluating the work of Spencer et al. based on their other views EXCEPT when people are trying to say that we should “Stop the presses” because Spencer et al. have published a new result that is so important that we should take it into serious consideration even though the scientific community has not had a chance to evaluate it yet. In such a case, I think it is reasonable to look at the person’s track record and scientific judgement to see how likely it is that they are correct in their extraordinary claims.
I also think that the discussion about tobacco and creationism, etc. is useful in understanding why there might be scientists who stick with positions that are scientifically not very tenable, i.e., why one can never expect a “consensus” to be unanimous.

September 26, 2011 4:18 pm

HenryP says:
September 26, 2011 at 11:52 am
henry@davidmhoffer&others
I do not regard the notion that more CO2 or more GHG’s cause any warming as scientifically proven http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011 please enlighten me if you can prove me wrong>>>
It depends on exactly what statement you are objecting to. There is no doubt that if all other factors were to remain the same, an increase in CO2 would result in higher temperatures. By how much? Different question. More importantly, there is no such thing as being able to change the concentration of CO2 and have nothing else in the system change as a consequence. There have to be secondary effects, and so on, some of which will be negative and some positive. What’s the net? Close to zero is my guess. But that doesn’t change the fact that increased GHG’s have a direct effect and that it is real. The system as a whole is another matter.
If you want to argue that the direct effect of GHG’s doesn’t exist at all, then sorry, cannot agree.

Dave Wendt
September 27, 2011 12:09 am

Joel Shore says:
September 26, 2011 at 2:40 pm
“I think this had in fact been quite well-quantified and you are not correct about the radiative effect of CO2.”
Well that’s nice to know! You may be surprised but I don’t think that much of your positions either.
You seem to be obsessed with my disregarding feedbacks, which may be my fault. I thought I was clear in my original comment that I was discussing the obvious logical faults in the estimates of the pure CO2 sensitivity sans feedbacks
“For the sake of argument I’ll use the 25% figure. That would indicate that CO2 is responsible for 8.25 K of the 33 K total. By my reckoning, at the present 390 ppm level we are at 8.6 doublings of CO2, which works out to fairly close to 1 K per doubling. If you assume a sensitivity closer to 2 K/dbl CO2 must be responsible for more than 50% of the entire GHE.”
Given the stirring way that the derivation of the CO2 radiative forcing and sensitivity estimates is usually described as being based entirely on well known and well understood laws and rules of Physics, I have always naively assumed they would be constant across all doublings as all those laws and rules are across time and space. Perhaps you can fill me in on how and why the no feedbacks CO2 sensitivity changes as have down to 1 ppm.
J.S.
“You seem to be trying to get around this now by arguing about where most of the effect occurs, but that is largely irrelevant: How much the temperature changes under climate change is determined mainly by the total radiative balance between the earth and space. The geographical distribution of the temperature changes is not determined primarily by where the small changes in radiative balance occur because the troposphere is a strongly coupled system with lots of convective and advective flows.”
I can understand how you might have found that bit about DLR in Tropics a little hard to follow because it is based on my own completely personal interpretation of an obscure bit of science by a couple of guys from Canada named Evans and Puckrin that has become somewhat of a personal obsession of mine. It’s actually pretty much a piece of warmist dreck in terms of the authors analysis which I was actually referred to by one of your fellows in comments here quite a few years ago
http://ams.confex.com/ams/Annual2006/techprogram/paper_100737.htm
These guys utilized techniques of spectral analysis to empirically quantify the individual contributions of the components of the atmosphere to total DLR. While I was much less than impressed by the paper the experimental technique seemed sound and something I saw in their data tables really piqued my interest ( you’ll have to click on the extended abstract link to see exactly what I’m talking about) their tables 3a and 3b listed data they collected in winter and summer respectively. The winter data did indicate CO2 providing a solid 25% of DLR in the cold dry winter air 35W/m2 out of a total of about 150W/m2, but in the summer when the total rose to 250-270W/m2 the CO2 declined to 10 W/m2. E&P’s experiment was too limited in both temporal and areal extent to be probative of anything but they did develop a model to recreate the past atmosphere as a reference and the model predicted this same decline almost exactly. E&P did their work in west central Canada where even in summer total DLR is less than 300W/m2 and since over the latitudes of the Tropics and SubTropics the total DLR is usually given in the range of 350-450+ W/m2 this data suggested to me that in those areas, if this phenomenon was confirmed, CO2 would be contributing in the very low single digits of percentage to total DLR there. You seem to want to focus on the TOA energy balance but any H2O feedbacks would be controlled by DLR at the surface not at TOA
I rather naively assumed that there would be a rush to replicate this work globally because it seems to have such great potential for providing the kind of truly empirical data that would resolve some of the many questions in this controversy. AFAIK it has only been used once more in the Antarctic experiment I referenced previously. I have always found that to be extremely curious

September 27, 2011 11:04 am

David
“I believe Lord Moncton in fact acknowledged that he was not aware of amendment. Now, let’s dig a bit deeper into the number itself. I’ve not read the paper being referenced, but I can do some rough math and point out a couple of things.”
go read the paper and the ammendment. Then get back to us with your response to that paper.

September 27, 2011 11:11 am

david:
“Point being that I have no argument with the notion of CO2 warming the planet.”
good thats a start.
As far as the rest.. wether the warming will be alarming or what the precise figure for doubling is.. That is where the debate is.
But that debate can’t happen effectively as long as there are people in the room sucking up the oxygen with nonsense like C02 has no effect. or C02 is a trace gas. or 100% percent of all warming is due to the sun, or “natural variability”
In any case, sounds like you might be a lukewarmer.

September 27, 2011 11:37 am

steven mosher;
go read the paper and the ammendment. Then get back to us with your response to that paper.>>
Why? Is there some flaw in the physics I have presented that the paper would invalidate? I’ve presented known physics upon which the estimate of 1 degree vs 1.9 degree from direct effects of CO2 rests. Using either number invalidates the CAGW claim, and I did so using the higher od the two numbers.
I accepted, unread, the use of the higher number and am not disputing it. What additional value would reading it and accepting it bring? Why are you avoiding addressing the argument that I have raised?

JohnB
September 27, 2011 4:40 pm

I must admit that to a degree I can’t see the point of arguing over whether the direct result fom a doubling of CO2 is 1 degree or 10 as the climatic equilibrium temperature is not dependent on it.
The change in equilibrium is dependent on what the feedbacks do after the initial forcing is applied, not the size or source of the forcing change.
Obviously there must be limits and outside those the forcing would dominate (for example if TSI doubled) but for the few W/m-2, around 1% changes we are talking about the feedbacks should dominate.

Joel Shore
September 27, 2011 7:39 pm

JohnB: I think you make a reasonable point – It is somewhat arbitrary what you consider to be the “zeroth-order” effect of CO2 vs what you consider to be the feedback effects (although I think one can argue that there are certainly better or worse choices that one can make).
This is another way of seeing where Monckton has gone off the rails: In essence, he is proposing a new zeroth-order definition of the effect of CO2…and then combining that new definition with the value of feedbacks that are derived from the more logical definition that everyone else uses in order to produce a new estimate of the total climate sensitivity. This estimate is simply bogus since, at the very least, what he has to do if he redefines the zeroth-order definition is then define feedbacks in a way that are compatible with this new definition. (In practice, the reason that people use the standard definition is based on some good physical reasons, so his way of doing things may prove cumbersome, but at least he should try to do so with some degree of consistency.)
Let’s use an example to make this clear: Suppose I defined my height to be the length of my legs plus the length of my torso plus the length of my head and by using the values of 2.5 ft, 2.0 ft, and 1.0 ft for these, I arrive at my height of 5.5 ft. Then, suppose Monckton comes along and says that he really doesn’t like the definition of my head that I use as everything above my shoulders and he would prefer it to be everything above my waist. He measures everything above my waist and finds a value of 3.0 ft, so he adds that to the length of my torso and the length of legs that I had previously determined and concludes that I am actually 7.5 ft tall…and that I thus should probably be playing in the NBA.
Of course, rational people would say that Monckton has gotten his an incorrect measurement for my height because his definition of the length of my head essentially double-counts everything between my shoulders and my waist.

September 27, 2011 9:05 pm

steven mosher (Sept. 27, 2011 at 11:11 am) asserts that “wether [sic] the warming will be alarming or what the precise figure for doubling is.. That is where the debate is.” I gather that, in mosher’s view, there exists a mathematical relation from an increase in the atmospheric CO2 concentration to an increase in the equilibrium surface air temperature and this relation is a functional relation. Where’s the proof of mosher’s assertion?

September 28, 2011 9:27 am

davidmhoffer says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/24/moncktons-letter-to-the-journal-remote-sensing/#comment-752934
The problem that I have is that nobody has set up a balance sheet of the warming and cooling properties so we cannot say with absolute certainty that a gas is a GHG or not. That is:assuming that the definition of a GHG is that more of it contributes to warming rather than cooling.
I am saying that your statement:
“There is no doubt that if all other factors were to remain the same, an increase in CO2 would result in higher temperatures”.
is in fact not proven by absolute physical measurements
When you say: “What’s the net? Close to zero is my guess.”
than we can agree!!!
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok

September 28, 2011 12:52 pm

HenryP;
is in fact not proven by absolute physical measurements>>>
It absolutely has been:
http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm
There is zero doubt from this experiment that if all other factors remain the same, an increase in CO2 results in an increase in temperature. This experiment is easily verified and duplicated.
The FLAW in this experiment is that it is not valid for the earth’s atmosphere. While the experiment uses a fixed value for water vapour concentration and concludes that temperature increases from CO2 are negligible, the experiment fails to recognize that the atmosphere is not uniform. At sea level, over the ocean, at the tropics, water vapour would indeed be in the 3% to 4% range. At high altitude however, and also high latitude, and also over land, water vapour concentrations fall to nearly zero (cold air can’t hold water vapour in very high concentrations). So…in places where water vapour concentration is very low, and given that the absorption spectrum of water vapour and CO2 overlap, the direct effects of CO2 are much higher at high altitude and so on.
But there is no doubt, and this experiment confirms, by physical measurement, that all other factors remaining equal, increased CO2 does in fact make things warmer.

Dave Wendt
September 28, 2011 9:16 pm

davidmhoffer says:
September 28, 2011 at 12:52 pm
“At high altitude however, and also high latitude, and also over land, water vapour concentrations fall to nearly zero (cold air can’t hold water vapour in very high concentrations). So…in places where water vapour concentration is very low, and given that the absorption spectrum of water vapour and CO2 overlap, the direct effects of CO2 are much higher at high altitude and so on.”
I wonder if you have seen this work
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI3525.1
Spectral and Broadband Longwave Downwelling Radiative Fluxes, Cloud Radiative Forcing, and Fractional Cloud Cover over the South Pole
“About two-thirds of the clear-sky flux is due to water vapor, and one-third is due to CO2, both in summer and winter. The seasonal constancy of this approximately 2:1 ratio is investigated through radiative transfer modeling. Precipitable water vapor (PWV) amounts were calculated to investigate the H2O/CO2 flux ratio. Monthly mean PWV during 2001 varied from 1.6 mm during summer to 0.4 mm during winter. Earlier published estimates of PWV at the South Pole are similar for winter, but are 50% lower for summer. Possible reasons for low earlier estimates of summertime PWV are that they are based either on inaccurate hygristor technology or on an invalid assumption that the humidity was limited by saturation with respect to ice.”
Even at the coldest, driest place on the planet water is still responsible for 2/3rds of DLR and though CO2’s influence there is in all probability the highest of anywhere on the planet, AFAIK the temps at the Pole have been laying there like a dead dog for 50 years.

September 28, 2011 11:33 pm

davidmhoffer says:
“It absolutely has been:
http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm
There is zero doubt from this experiment that if all other factors remain the same, an increase in CO2 results in an increase in temperature. This experiment is easily verified and duplicated.”
Henry, steven mosher etc.
Clearly this experiment only refers to the 14-16 um bandwidth
which is the warming part.
But how much is it cooling (various absorptions 0-5 um) ?
And what is the balance?
How do you know it is warming more than it is cooling?
(I need to see some results in W/m2/per 0.01%CO2/m3/24hrs)
Like many before you, you have not understood that the CO2 is also cooling?
Try to understand the footnote, here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011

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