Monckton's letter to the journal Remote Sensing

Christopher Monckton writes in email:

I sent the attached commentary to the journal a week back and have not had so much as an acknowledgement. So do feel free to use it.

It is reproduced below. Readers may recall of the editor resignation imbroglio over the journal Remote Sensing publishing Spencer-Braswell 2011 – Anthony

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Commentary

Empirical determination of climate sensitivity

Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Reliable empirical determination of climate sensitivity is limited by uncertainties in the observations [1] as well as in climate theory. A fortiori, reliable numerical determination of sensitivity by general-circulation models is hindered not only by these uncertainties but also by difficulties inherent in modeling the coupled, non-linear, mathematically-chaotic climate object [2-4]. Of the ten papers [5-14] cited in [1] as attempting to determine climate sensitivity empirically as opposed to numerically, four concur with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [4] in finding sensitivity high: in [5], for instance, it is suggested that sensitivities >10 K cannot be ruled out. Two of the ten papers [13, 14] are criticisms of [7, 12], implying high sensitivity. The remaining four papers [7, 10-12] argue for low sensitivity: typically ~1 K per CO2 doubling, implying net-negative temperature feedbacks.

In this lively debate, further papers explicitly finding sensitivity low are [15], where an equilibrium sensitivity 1.1 K was determined as the quotient of the relaxation time-constant of the climate system and the heat capacity of the global ocean, found by regression of ocean heat content; [16], which found that sensitivities over various recent and paleoclimatic periods cohere at 1-1.7 K if an amplification of solar forcing owing to cosmic-ray displacement is posited, but not otherwise; [17], where a reanalysis of the NCEP tropospheric humidity data showed significantly negative zonal annual mean specific humidity at all altitudes >850 hPa, implying that the long-term water-vapor feedback is negative and that equilibrium sensitivity is ~1 K; and [18], where the observed rate of decrease in aerosol optical depth, particularly in the United States and Europe, was found to have contributed a strong positive forcing, requiring that canonical equilibrium climate sensitivity be halved to 1-1.8 K.

In [15-18] the sensitivities ~1 K were declared explicitly. However, several papers contain internal, unstated evidence for low climate sensitivity. For instance, [19] displays a flow-diagram for the energy budget of the Earth and its atmosphere, such that incoming and outgoing fluxes are shown to balance at the surface. The diagram shows surface radiation as 390 W m–2, corresponding to a blackbody emission at 288 K, equivalent to today’s mean surface temperature 15 °C. If the surface radiative flux were indeed the blackbody flux of 390 W m–2, then by differentiation of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer the implicit value of the Planck parameter λ0 would be ΔT /ΔF = T/4(F+78+24) = 0.15 K W–1 m2 (after including 78 W m–2 for evapo-transpiration and 24 W m–2 for thermal convection), whereupon, assuming feedbacks summing to the IPCC’s implicit central estimate 2.1 W m–2 K–1, equilibrium climate sensitivity ΔT2x = ΔF2x λ0 (1 – 2.1 λ0)–1 = 3.7(0.15)(1.5) = 0.8 K.

There is a further, and important, indication of low climate sensitivity in [19], where the total radiative forcing from the five principal greenhouse gases (H2O, CO2, CH4, O3, and N2O) in the entire atmosphere is given as 125 W m–2 in clear skies and 86 W m–2 in cloudy skies, giving ~101 W m–2 forcing overall. Holding insolation and albedo constant ad experimentum, the difference between surface temperatures with and without the atmosphere is readily established as 288 – 255 = 33 K, so that, assuming that any other forcings are comparatively insignificant, the climate sensitivity of the whole atmosphere is simply 3.7(33/101) = 1.2 K.

Much has been written [e.g. 34-36] of the discrepancy between modeled and observed rates of warming in the tropical mid-troposphere. The theory of the moist adiabat, supported by the models, holds that there should be 2.5-3 times as much warming in the tropical mid-troposphere as at the surface. However, [20], cited with approval in [4], regards the existence of the tropical mid-troposphere “hot-spot” as a fingerprint of anthropogenic warming. If so, in all but one of the dozen radiosonde and satellite datasets of tropical mid-troposphere temperature, the fingerprint is absent, indicating that the IPCC’s current central estimate of climate sensitivity should be divided by 2.5-3, giving an equilibrium sensitivity ~1 K.

An intriguing discrepancy between modeled and observed rates of evaporation from the surface was reported by [21]. The models predict evaporation ΔE/ΔT = 1-3% per Kelvin of surface warming: observations, however, indicate that the true value is close to 6%. The equilibrium-sensitivity parameter λ is directly determinable from the rate of change in evaporation expressed as a percentage per Kelvin of surface warming, thus: λ = (0.8 ΔE/ΔT)–1. This result, from [22], may be verified by plugging the model-projected 1-3% K–1 into the equation, yielding λ on [0.42, 1.25] and consequently a climate sensitivity on [1.5, 4.5] K, precisely the model-derived values that the IPCC projects. However, the measured 5.7% K–1 indicates λ = 0.22 and equilibrium sensitivity 0.8 K.

It is sometimes said that we are conducting an experiment on the only planet we have. We have been conducting that experiment with increasing vigor for a quarter of a millennium. Some results are by now available. In [23], an assessment of all greenhouse-gas forcings since 1750 was presented. The total is 3.1 W m–2. From this, the net-negative non-greenhouse-gas forcings of 1.1 W m–2 given in [4] are deducted to give a net forcing from all sources of ~2 W m–2 over the period. Warming from 1750-1984 was 0.5 K [24], with another 0.3 K since then [25], making 0.8 K in all, not inconsistent with the 0.9 K indicated in [26-28]. Then the climate sensitivity over the period, long enough for feedbacks to have acted, is (5.35 ln 2)(0.8/2) = 1.5 K, on the assumption that all the warming over the period was anthropogenic. A similar analysis applied to the data since 1950 produces a further sensitivity ~1 K.

More simply still, the most rapid supra-decadal rate of warming since the global instrumental record [24] began was equivalent to 0.16 K/decade. This rate was observed from 1860-1880, 1910-1940, and 1976-2001, since when there has been no warming. There are no statistically-significant differences between the warming rates over these three periods, which between them account for half of the record. On the assumption that in the next nine decades what has been the maximum supra-decadal warming rate becomes the mean rate, climate warming to 2100 will be 1.4 K.

Another simple method is merely to project to 2100 the linear warming rate since 1950, when greenhouse-gas emissions first became significant. This is legitimate, since [4] expects CO2 concentration to rise near-exponentially, but the consequent forcing is logarithmic. In that event, once again the centennial warming will be 1.2 K.

These four sensitivities ~ 1 K derived from the temperature record are of course transient sensitivities: but, since equilibrium will not be reached for 1000-3000 years [29], it is only the transient sensitivity that is policy-relevant. In any event, on the assumption that approaching half of the warming since 1750 may have been natural, equilibrium sensitivities ~1 K are indicated.

Resolution of the startling discrepancy between the low-sensitivity and high-sensitivity cases is of the first importance. The literature contains much explicit and implicit evidence for low as well as high sensitivity, and the observed record of temperature change – to date, at any rate – coheres remarkably with the low-sensitivity findings. Until long enough periods of reliable data are available both to the empiricists and to the modelers, neither group will be able to provide a definitive, widely-accepted interval for climate sensitivity.

Two conclusions follow. First, given the uncertainties in the empirical method and the still greater uncertainties inherent in the numerical method, a theoretical approach should be considered. Climate sensitivity to any forcing is the product of three parameters: the forcing itself, the Planck sensitivity parameter λ0, and the overall feedback gain factor [30]. Though the CO2 forcing cannot be quantified directly by measurement in the laboratory, where it is difficult to simulate non-radiative transports, the current value 5.35 times the logarithm of the proportionate change in CO2 concentration, or 3.7 W m–2 (some 15% below the value in [31]), is generally accepted as likely to be correct. Likewise, the value of λ0 is clear: it is the first differential of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer at the characteristic-emission altitude, where incoming and outgoing radiative fluxes are by definition identical, augmented by ~17% to allow for latitudinal variation.

The central uncertainty in the debate about climate sensitivity, therefore, resides in the value of the last of the three parameters – the overall feedback gain factor G = (1 – λ0 f)–1, where f is the sum of all individual positive and negative feedbacks and g = λ0 f is the closed-loop gain. Process engineers designing electronic circuits customarily constrain g to a maximum value +0.01 to ensure that conditions leading to runaway feedback do not occur. Above 0.01, or at maximum 0.1, there is a danger that defective components, errors in assembly, and the circumstances of use can conspire to cause runaway feedback that damages or even destroys the circuit.

The climate is an object on which feedbacks operate. Yet in the past 750 Ma [32] absolute mean global surface temperature has not varied by more than 8 K, or 3%, either side of the long-run mean. Similar results were separately obtained for the past 65 Ma [33]. It is most unlikely, therefore, that the loop gain g in the climate object exceeds 0.1. However, the IPCC’s interval of climate sensitivities, [2, 6.4] K, implies a loop gain on [0.4, 0.8], an interval so far above 0.1 that runaway feedback would have occurred at some point in the geological record. Yet there is no sign that any such event has ever occurred. Given this significant theoretical constraint on g, equilibrium climate sensitivity cannot in any event exceed 1.2 K.

The second conclusion is related to the first. It is that, in accordance with the fundamental constraint that theory dictates, climate sensitivities attained by a variety of methods appear to cohere at ~1 K per CO2 doubling, not the far higher values offered by the high-sensitivity community. As we have seen, in six papers [11-12, 15-18], climate sensitivity is explicitly stated to be ~1 K; in a further three [19-21], by four distinct methods, implicit sensitivity is found to be ~1 K; by four further methods applied to the recent global temperature record, sensitivity seems to be ~1 K; and the coherence of these results tends to confirm the theoretical argument that the feedback loop gain, and therefore climate sensitivity, cannot be strongly positive, providing a 15th and definitive indication that sensitivity is ~1 K. Since no single method is likely to find favor with all, a coherence of multiple empirical and theoretical methods such as that which has been sketched here may eventually decide the vexed climate-sensitivity question.

Remote Sensing, therefore, was right to publish [12], authored by two of the world’s foremost experts on the design and operation of satellite remote-sensing systems and on the interpretation of the results. The authors stand in a long and respectable tradition of reassessing not only the values of individual temperature feedbacks but of their mutually-amplified aggregate. Their results suggest that temperature feedbacks are somewhat net-negative, implying climate sensitivity ~1 K. In the context of the wider evidence considered in outline here, they may be right.

References

  1. Trenberth, K.E.; Fasullo, J.T.; Abraham, J.P. Issues in Establishing Climate Sensitivity in Recent Studies, Remote Sens. 2011, 3, 2051-2056; doi: 10.3390/rs3092051.
  2. Lorenz, E.N. Deterministic nonperiodic flow, J. Atmos. Sci. 1963, 20, 130-141.
  3. Giorgi, F. Climate Change Prediction, Climatic Change 2005, 73, 239-265; doi: 10.1007/s10584-005-6857-4.
  4. IPCC. Climate Change 2007: the Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. [Solomon, S.; Qin, D.; Manning, M.; Chen, Z.,; Marquis, M.; Avery, K.B.; Tignor, M.; Miller, H.L. (eds.)], Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK, 2007, §14.2.2.2.
  5. Gregory, J.M.; Ingram, W.J.; Palmer, M.A.; Jones, G.S.; Stott, P.A.; Thorpe, R.B.; Lowe, J.A.; Johns, T.C.; Williams, K.D. A new method for diagnosing radiative forcing and climate sensitivity. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2004, 31, L03205.
  6. Forster, P.M.F.; Gregory, J.M. The climate sensitivity and its components diagnosed from earth radiation budget data. J. Climate 2006, 19, 39-52.
  7. Spencer, R.W.; Braswell, W.D. On the diagnosis of radiative feedback in the presence of unknown radiative forcing. J. Geophys. Res. 2010, 115, D16109.
  8. Murphy, D.M.; Solomon, S.; Portmann, R.W.; Rosenlof, K.H.; Forster, P.M.; Wong, T. An observationally based energy balance for the earth since 1950. J. Geophys. Res. 2009, 114, D17107.
  9. Clement, A.C.; Burgman, R.; Norris, J.R. Observational and model evidence for positive low-level cloud feedback. Science 2009, 325, 460-464.
  10. Lindzen, R.S.; Choi, Y.-S. On the determination of climate feedbacks from erbe data. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2009, 36, L16705.
  11. Lindzen, R.S.; Choi, Y.S. On the observational determination of climate sensitivity and its implications. Asia Pacific J. Atmos. Sci. 2011, 47, 377-390.
  12. Spencer, R.W.; Braswell, W.D. On the misdiagnosis of surface temperature feedbacks from variations in earth’s radiant energy balance. Remote Sens. 2011, 3, 1603-1613.
  13. Dessler, A.E. A determination of the cloud feedback from climate variations over the past decade. Science 2010, 330, 1523-1527.
  14. Dessler, A.E. Cloud variations and the earth’s energy budget. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2011, doi:10.1029/2011GL049236.
  15. Schwartz, S.E. Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of Earth’s climate system. Geophys Res. Lett. 2007.
  16. Shaviv, N. On climate response to changes in the cosmic-ray flux and radiative budget. J. Geophys. Res., 2008, doi:10.1029.
  17. Paltridge, G.; A. Arking; M. Pook. Trends in middle- and upper-level tropospheric humidity from NCEP reanalysis data. Theor. Appl. Climatol. 2009, doi:10.1007/s00704-009-0117-x.
  18. Chylek, P.; U. Lohmann; M. Dubey; M. Mishchenko; R. Kahn; A. Ohmura. Limits on climate sensitivity derived from recent satellite and surface observations. J. Geophys. Res. 2007, 112, D24S04, doi:10.1029/ 2007JD008740.
  19. Kiehl, J.T., & K.E. Trenberth. The Earth’s Radiation Budget. Bull. Am. Meteorol. Soc. 1997, 78, 197-208.
  20. Santer, B.D., et al. Contributions of anthropogenic and natural forcing to recent tropopause height changes. Science 2003, 301, 479–483.
  21. Wentz, F.J.; L. Ricciardulli; K. Hilburn; C. Mears. How much more rain will global warming bring? SciencExpress 2007, 31 May, 1-5, doi:10.1126/ science.1140746.
  22. Lindzen, R.S. Climate v. Climate Alarm, Lecture to the American Chemical Society, 2011 Aug. 28.
  23. Blasing, T.J. Recent greenhouse-gas concentrations), 2011 August; doi: 10.3334/CDIAC/atg.032: http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html.
  24. Hansen, J.; Lacis, A.; Rind A.; Russell, G.; Stone, P.; Fung, I.; Ruedy, R.; Lerner, J. Climate sensitivity: analysis of feedback mechanisms. Meteorological Monographs 1984, 29, 130-163.
  25. HadCRUt3, Monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies, 1850-2011. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt.
  26. Parker, D.E. et al. Monthly mean Central England temperatures, 1974-1991. Int. J. Climatol., 1992a.
  27. Parker, D.E.; Legg, T.P.; Folland, C.K. A new daily Central England Temperature Series, 1772-1991, Int. J. Climatol. 1992b, 12, 317-342.
  28. Parker, D.E.; Horton, E.B. Uncertainties in the Central England Temperature series 1878-2003 and some improvements to the maximum and minimum series, Int. J. Climatol. 2005, 25, 1173-1188.
  29. Solomon, S.; Plattner, G.-K.; Knutti, R.; Friedlingstein, P.. Irreversible climate change due to carbon dioxide emissions. PNAS 2009, 106:6, 1704-1709, doi:10.1073/pnas.0812721106.
  30. Monckton of Brenchley, C. Climate Sensitivity Reconsidered. Physics and Society 2008, 37:3, 6-19.
  31. IPCC. Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change [Houghton, J.T.; Meira Filho, L.G.; Callander, B.A.; Harris, N.; Kattenberg, A.; Maskell, K. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK, 1996, 572 pp.
  32. Scotese, C.R. How global climate has changed through time. 2002, http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm.
  33. Zachos, J.; Pagani, M.; Sloan, L.; Thomas, E.; Billups, K.. Trends, Rhythms and Aberrations in Global Climate 65 Ma to Present. Science 2001, 292, 686-693.
  34. Douglass, D.H.; Pearson, B.D.; Singer, S.F. Altitude dependence of atmospheric temperature trends: climate models versus observation. Geophys. Res. Lett. 2004, 31, L13208, doi: 10.1029/2004GL020103.
  35. Douglass, D.H.; Christy, J.R.; Pearson, B.D.; Singer, S.F. A comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions. Int. J. Climatol. 2007, doi:10.1002/joc.1651.
  36. Santer, B.D.; Thorne, P.W.; Haimberger, L.; Taylor, K.E.; Wigley, T.M.L.; Lanzante, J.R.; Solomon, S.; Free, M.; Gleckler, P.J.; Jones, P.D.; Karl, T.R.; Klein, S.A.; Mears, C.; Nychka, D.; Schmidt, G.A.; Sherwood, S.C.; Wentz, F.J. Consistency of modelled and observed temperature trends in the tropical troposphere. Int. J. Climatol. 2008, doi:1002/joc.1756.

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September 25, 2011 7:40 am

Henry@Monckton of Brenchley
The theory of any warming caused by the effect of more CO2 or more GHG’s is most certainly not supported by observations of data from weather stations
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
Repeatable observations show that it is due to natural warming (less clouds and/or more sunshine) and a small % may be due to increased vegetation.

September 25, 2011 8:58 am

>>Gail
>>Reminds me of the Mediaeval church using Latin so the peasants could
>>not understand it so making the priests look more exclusive and clever.
And burning at the stake, the first person to print it in English. See Tyndale.
.

September 25, 2011 9:04 am

Monckton of Brenchley (Sept. 25, 2011 at 3:48 am):
To accuse one’s critic of being a “troll” is an example of an ad hominem argument. As this argument is unrelated to the issue at hand, I won’t respond to it. Also, as you have interests in climatology and have published in this area, I’ve labelled you a “climatologist.” By my use of this term, I do not imply you are a professional in this discipline.
My critique is addressed to the subset of people who have published on climatology and who in these publications have assumed the existence of “the climate sensitivity.” In addition to yourself, these people include the members of IPCC Working Group I. I contend that in debating the magnitude of the climate sensitivity they and you are debating an issue that is not scientific in nature for the climate sensitivity is not an observable feature of the real world and thus speculations about its magnitude are not falsifiable.
“The climate sensitivity” (more properly “the equilibrium climate sensitivity”) is a loaded piece of terminology for the “the” in this phrase implies the stationarity of the equilibrium climate sensitivity but this stationarity is not falsifiable in view of the non-observability of the equilibrium temperature. Thus, by the mere (and possibly innocent) use of this term, one fabricates information that one does not have. The fabricated information is of the stationarity of “the” equilibrium climate sensitivity.
The assumption of stationarity is the equivalent of the assumption of the existence of a functional relation from the logarithm of the CO2 concentration to the equilibrium temperature. By definition, the relation from the first of the two variables to the second is a proper subset of the Cartesian product of the numerical values that are taken on by them. There are alternatives to the existence of a functional relation; they are: a) the non-existence of a relation and b) the existence of a relation that is not functional.
Climatologists have, in the way I have shown, fabricated information. Were they to take it upon themselves to avoid this fabrication, they would have to reorganize their field of inquiry. In the reorganized field, the non-observable equilibrium global surface air temperature could be replaced by an observable surface air temperature, e.g., the average over successive 30 year periods of a global surface air temperature time series. In the reorganized field, observed events could then be examined for the existence of various relations, including the existence of a functional relation from the CO2 concentration to the temperature.

Alan Millar
September 25, 2011 9:40 am

Joel Shore says:
September 25, 2011 at 6:00 am
“So, yes, if you consider solely the direct radiative effects due to CO2 and ignore all feedbacks, the sensitivity is roughly 1 K. Nobody seriously disputes that”
Glad that you recognise that the ‘Greenhouse Effect’ is just an increase in radiative forcing.
So, given that CAGW is based on the fact that the Earth MUST warm in the face of an increase in radiative forcing and that is basically ‘settled science’, you wil be to explain the following undisputed evidence and observation.
‘In the last 500 million years the Suns radiative forcing has increased by about 65 WM2 at the TOA. 500 million years ago the Earth was a familiar place the atmosphere was very similar to today’s. Plants, animals and insects were well established, we would feel comfortable if we were present then.
However, what has been the Earths response to this very significant increase in radiative forcing? Why it has cooled of course from about 22c to today’s 14c!’
So, come on Joel, what are the climatic factors that have caused this?
I mean, you do know don’t you, the science being basically settled and all?
Alan Millar

Editor
September 25, 2011 9:52 am

Terry Oldberg says: September 25, 2011 at 9:04 am
Terry: I took your original use of the term “fabrication” in much the same way that Lord Monckton did and interpreted it as an accusation against him directly. Even now, I am not sure the term is applicable: equilibrium is an important element in the paradigm – an assumption. If you have an alternative I think you need to explain it better.

ferd berple
September 25, 2011 10:10 am

Gary Swift says:
September 24, 2011 at 11:45 am
That’s not really a good argument. The Earth has gone through several periods in the time frame he’s talking about which would not be very good for supporting our modern human civilization.
———————————–
Hasn’t human civilization in general flourished during times of warming?

ferd berple
September 25, 2011 10:42 am

Why did the editor of Remote Sensing resign and publicly apologize to Trenberth? Trenberth wasn’t in way way involved in the paper or its publication, so why the apology?
That is really at the heart of this issue, because the apology is out of place. There is no logical connection. So why did it happen? Answer that question and you will know why the editor resigned.
Why did it happen? Here is a hypothesis: Under the IPCC rules, the SB11 paper must be included in AR5 if it is published before a certain date, and has not been rebutted. The editor was supposed to hold SB11 publication past that date, or at least until Dressler had finished his rebuttal, but he was not able to. Trenberth was upset with this and threatened funding for the editor’s own climate related projects. To protect this funding, the editor resigned and apologized. Trenberth published a rebuttal that was approved in a single day, thus meeting the requirements of AR5 to keep SB11 out of the next IPCC finding. The purpose being to keep anything out of AR5 that questions the IPCC position that CO2 has a high climate sensitivity and there is very high confidence of this.
In other words, the AR5 conclusion is already written. What is now required is a mechanism to cherry pick which scientific papers to include in AR5. The publication rebuttal method was supposed to accomplish this, by holding up contrary papers while allowing speedy publication of rebuttals. This has worked well in the past, where friendly editors informed the Team of new papers, giving the Team enough lead time to write a rebuttal before the paper in question was even published. However, in this instance the procedure failed as the editor in RS was not able to hold up SB112 until Dressler had finished the rebuttal. As a result the editor was required to fall in his sword and Trenbeth was required to publish a rebuttal of SB11 with the highly unusual single day approval.

John Whitman
September 25, 2011 10:42 am

ferd berple says:
September 25, 2011 at 10:10 am

Gary Swift says:
September 24, 2011 at 11:45 am
That’s not really a good argument. The Earth has gone through several periods in the time frame he’s talking about which would not be very good for supporting our modern human civilization.

ferd berple Swift -> Hasn’t human civilization in general flourished during times of warming?
————————-
ferd berple,
For groups like the Club of Rome, things that benefit civilization, like warming, create more people (higher population). The Club of Rome opposes more people (higher population).
There are many groups who oppose more people; it being very common in ideological environmentalists who at the same time oppose warming. The people they promote to populate the Earth are people like themselves. Note: I am not allowed by our gracious host to draw historic parallels between the concepts of those groups and to certain political concepts of a certain European country between 1930s and 1940s, so I won’t.
Gary Swift – Question for you. – Do you think warming is not good for civilization because it will cause a planetary destructive increase in population?
John

September 25, 2011 11:13 am

re: Ralph on September 25, 2011 at 8:58 am
PlainJane says on September 24, 2011 at 1:38 pm

Reminds me of the Mediaeval church using Latin so the peasants could not understand

Please disabuse me of the notion that you’re using narrow ‘consumer-istic’ (bubble-packed, shrink-wrapped Oliver Stone/JFK-class world-class conspiratorial mysteries solved in under 3 hours sitting) 21st century western mindsets to evaluate 5th century through 15th century thinking regarding language, church and liturgical practices, societal culture, and awareness of translation activities (and resources and capabilities to do so)?
Follow-up (rhetorical Q) – What was the spoken language in ancient Rome (and probably universal through-out the Roman Empire)?
(Can I say – Some of you ppl are UN-believable … get the conspiratorial pun? “UN” as in United Nations? A pun … )
.

September 25, 2011 11:18 am

I dont see smokey or others on this thread debunking Monkton for claiming that C02 in fact warms the planet. He claims 1C per doubling, and cites a reference that has been amended to 1.9K
( clearly in the lukewarmer camp)
So, Smokey, and others who deny that C02 has any measurable impact on warming.. Take your best shot at Monkton.. If he stands by Schwartz’s 1.9 he’s a lukewarmer. If he wants to reject Schwartz, why that would require an argument.. more than I didnt read that paper.
Or, you can accept that C02 warms the planet.

September 25, 2011 11:31 am

steven mosher says on September 25, 2011 at 11:18 am …
Mosh, do you know what S-Parameters (e.g. S11 or S21) are? Ever worked with any? Either practically (using a VNA) or theoretically via ‘specs’ or a device spec sheet?
Do you know the difference between a ‘filter’ which is absorptive vs a ‘filter’ which is reflective?
These principles are applicable to optics (optical wavelengths and IR lamda) as well, but, I generally apply them at much lower frequencies/much longer wavelengths than ‘optical’ …
.

September 25, 2011 11:43 am

_Jim,
If you want to understand the basics of scattering, reflecting and absorbing in the atmosphere, there are plenty of primary texts. Start there rather than with S -Parameters

dp
September 25, 2011 12:02 pm

Mosh said:

So, Smokey, and others who deny that C02 has any measurable impact on warming.. Take your best shot at Monkton.. If he stands by Schwartz’s 1.9 he’s a lukewarmer. If he wants to reject Schwartz, why that would require an argument.. more than I didnt read that paper.
Or, you can accept that C02 warms the planet.

Why has this temperature not always been the result when the CO2 density has risen and fallen in the past?
It is also imprecise to say CO2 warms anything as it is not an energy source – it is a radiative insulator and retains energy at certain wavelengths, and acts as a convective conveyor at all times. But I get your point.

September 25, 2011 12:08 pm

Steven Mosher says on September 25, 2011 at 11:43 am
Mosh, that wasn’t the question; I take it your answer is “no” to the S-Parameter familiarity question then (BTW, the use of S-parms was created tp SIMPLIFY many aspects of a one or two dimensional problem ‘power flow’ problems to just magnitude and phase quantities irrespective of individual circuit component action; no need to measure each and every voltage and current present JUST sample in the x directions the ‘energy flow’ via simple techniques) …
I am already familiar with that ‘stuff’ down to the molecular/molecule vibration level (I have posted on IR spectroscopy for instance. Do you know why the so-called line spectra ‘widen’ at higher gas pressures for instance? Collisions … adjacent molecular collisions and the transfer of energy in those collision; gas physics…)
Do you understand how the magnetic and electric dipole moments at the molecular level couple to impinging EM (Electro magnetic) energy (IR in particular) at various wavelengths? I wonder what your experience level is – does it extend to any classroom physics experiments (or self-study even) to the level of tuning a dipole to become resonant at 2.4 GHz or maybe even a rigging up a dipole for resonance in the middle of the 40 Meter ham band?
Do _you_ know why certain molecules are only receptive to certain wavelengths? (There is no monopoly by any one individual or group on this ‘info’: it has to do with the resonant physical structure and position of the basic elemental atoms making up any given type of molecule, i.e., CO2, H2O etc)
Just trying to gauge your experience level on things EM old chum …
.

September 25, 2011 12:26 pm

steven mosher says:
I dont see smokey or others on this thread debunking Monkton for claiming that C02 in fact warms the planet. He claims 1C per doubling… So, Smokey, and others who deny that C02 has any measurable impact on warming… Or, you can accept that C02 warms the planet.
Steven, you have MAJOR reading comprehension problems – maybe even worse than grammar and punctuation problems. [Didn’t you claim to be a college English professor, or something similar?☺]
First, I am in agreement with Lord Monckton’s view. I have stated many, many times that I think CO2 has contributed – somewhat – to warming. I have also stated many more times that I think a doubling of CO2 would probably result in a ≈1°C rise in temperature, ± 0.5°. I made that same statement often in the past, the last time not more than two weeks ago. And I have never, ever stated that I think CO2 has no effect. But I have quoted others such as Dr Miskolczi, who says that climate sensitivity to CO2 is zero. Go argue with him if you don’t like it.
What I have said is that the specific amount of warming from CO2 has never been measured; that there is no empirical, testable evidence, per the scientific method, showing just how much CO2 has warmed the planet. That is why there is the endless debate over the climate sensitivity number. If we could accurately measure the fraction of warming due exclusively to CO2, there wouldn’t be any more debate because we would have the sensitivity number nailed down. But there is a missing link in the evidence, which the alarmist crowd simply assumes is there. But it isn’t. You are confused about the difference between measurable evidence, and your flat wrong assumption of my repeatedly stated position.
Reading comprehension, Steven. You really need to work on that. Why not do what Willis suggests, and quote my words verbatim? That way you can avoid embarassing replies.

John Whitman
September 25, 2011 12:29 pm

Do I sense an upcoming Mosher vs. Monckton public debate. : )
It would be a sellout.
John

September 25, 2011 12:39 pm

John Whitman says on September 25, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Do I sense an upcoming Mosher vs. Monckton public debate. : ) …

I think I’m preparing to take him on … not really, But he needs to up his game as of late. Competition is good for all involved; sparring and all that.
.

Joel Shore
September 25, 2011 2:30 pm

Russ R says:

For example, ice-albedo feedback will be much stronger during a glacial period when the leading edge of ice sheets approaches mid-latitudes, than during an interglacial period, such as the present, when ice-sheets have retreated to higher latitudes, where the transitional zone covers less surface area and receives less solar radiation.

That’s a good point. However, it is very important to realize that the empirical derivation of the ~ 3 C per doubling from the last glacial maximum considers the changes in the land ice sheets to be a forcing, not a feedback. This means that the 3 C number, what Hansen calls the “Charney sensitivity”, does not include any significant land ice feedback.
That is why Hansen says a number including that is more like 6 C per CO2 doubling; however, other scientists have argued exactly what you are saying…that going warmer from where we are now won’t result in that large a sensitivity, and I think Hansen’s latest paper did concede that this 6 C sensitivity was likely an overestimate of what would happen in going from the current climate to a warmer climate.

Joel Shore
September 25, 2011 4:24 pm

Alan Millnar says:

‘In the last 500 million years the Suns radiative forcing has increased by about 65 WM2 at the TOA. 500 million years ago the Earth was a familiar place the atmosphere was very similar to today’s. Plants, animals and insects were well established, we would feel comfortable if we were present then.
However, what has been the Earths response to this very significant increase in radiative forcing? Why it has cooled of course from about 22c to today’s 14c!’
So, come on Joel, what are the climatic factors that have caused this?

Alan,
(1) I would need a reference to support your claim that the solar forcing has increased that much over the last 500 million years. Note that an increase in the solar constant by 65 W/m^2 would only result in 1/4 as much increase at the TOA because of the geometrical factor, and then an additional factor of ~0.7 due to albedo.
(2) Over such time scales, there are lots of other forcings that need to be considered. These include changes in greenhouse gas levels, changes in the locations of continents, oceans, and mountain ranges, … Data for both temperature and greenhouse gas levels gets much sketchier and less resolved in time as one goes back this far.

Alan Millar
September 25, 2011 6:09 pm

Joel Shore says:
September 25, 2011 at 4:24 pm
“Alan,
(1) I would need a reference to support your claim that the solar forcing has increased that much over the last 500 million years”
Joel, I don’t mean to be insulting but why do you comment on the science of climate change if you are not aware of such basic facts?
I quote the forcing at the TOA because the actual precise forcing is not fully estabished but can be estimated as about a 5% increase.
“2) Over such time scales, there are lots of other forcings that need to be considered. These include changes in greenhouse gas levels, changes in the locations of continents, oceans, and mountain ranges,”
All true.
However, CAGW’s basic tenet is that any increase in radiative forcing on the Earth MUST lead to an increase in temperature.
You have now admitted that this is that not actually true, that other factors may prevent this. Indeed the Earth may actually cool notwithstanding the increase in radiative forcing. e.g how do we know that the current configuration of continents and oceans etc will mean the Earth will not warm in the face of an increase in RF?
We know that the Earth has been cooling for hundreds of millions of years in the face of increasing RF. Show me the science!
Do you feel that this is a breakthrough in your understanding of climate change and that the science is indeed not settled and how much the Earth will warm (if at all) in the face of an increase in radiative forcing in the future is still very much open to question?
This question is also addressed to Steven Mosher and all the other believers out there.
Alan Millar

September 25, 2011 6:09 pm

Joel Shore says:
“…the 3 C number, what Hansen calls the “Charney sensitivity”…”
Somehow a superfluous “h” got in there, and the word came out “charney.”☺

Dave Wendt
September 25, 2011 8:25 pm

It is not just simple-minded…It is so simple-minded that it completely throws all feedbacks out the window! Nobody is claiming that the sensitivity to CO2 is produced solely by the direct radiative effects of CO2. The whole point is that if you take out CO2 from the atmosphere, the resulting cooling causes much of the water vapor to come out also…and also the ice albedo feedback to increase. See http://www.atm.damtp.cam.ac.uk/mcintyre/co2-main-ct-knob-lacis-sci10.pdf
So, yes, if you consider solely the direct radiative effects due to CO2 and ignore all feedbacks, the sensitivity is roughly 1 K. Nobody seriously disputes that.
At the current 8+ doublings of CO2 the 1 K sensitivity only holds up if you stipulate, as I did purely for the sake of argument, that the nonH2O GHGs are responsible for 25% of the GHE globally. Personally I find that notion entirely dubious. What few efforts I’ve seen that attempt to empirically quantify the contributions of the various components of the atmosphere to the GHE suggest that the only places on the planet where that condition would apply are at polar latitudes and in high temperate latitudes in the dead of Winter. For most of the planet most of the time it appears likely that H2O is responsible for +95% of DLR and hence of the GHE.
For the purposes of the discussion of feedbacks this is significant because the Tropical and SubTropical latitudes where most all of the evapotransitive effects, that supposedly would drive these H2O feedbacks, actually occur is the location where the warmth and humidity of the atmosphere and the high levels of DLR measured there suggests that H2O is most effectively suppressing the effects of the other GHGs. There has been an ongoing controversy over quite a number of comment threads here about how and whether DLR can add heat to the Tropical oceans, but if, as seems entirely likely, CO2’s contribution to the DLR signal there is limited to 2-3% that whole discussion would appear to be almost moot.
Regarding your link to that wonderful Lacis opus, consider this quote
“This radiative interaction is the greenhouse effect, which was first discovered by Joseph Fourier in 1824 (2), experimentally verified by John Tyndall in 1863 (3), and quantified by Svante Arrhenius in 1896 (4)”
You will note that the authors chose to cite Arrhenius (1896). Even a complete dolt such as myself is aware that Arrhenius did a complete reanalysis in 1906 in which he dropped his estimates by more than 2/3rds. Given all the smack you’ve put out about Monckton’s Schwartz citation are you similarly willing to kick Lacis and the lads to the curb over their grievous blunder.
And speaking of our boy Svante, I routinely encounter suggestions that the work done by the likes of Spencer, Singer, Lindzen and others should simply be ignored based on associations the suggestors find repellent. Consider this quote from Ole Svante’s bio
Racial biology
Svante Arrhenius was one of several leading Swedish scientists actively engaged in the process leading to the creation in 1922 of The State Institute for Racial Biology in Uppsala, Sweden, which had originally been proposed as a Nobel Institute. Arrhenius was a member of the institute’s board, as he had been in The Swedish Society for Racial Hygiene (Eugenics), founded in 1909.[6]
Wouldn’t this association and the clear philosophical six degrees of Kevin Bacon linkage to those folks in Germany who put his hateful theories to there most evil application, an application that we all must fight to remain cognitively separated from, constitute much more reason for disregard than some generally correct criticisms of the dubious science of secondhand smoke or religious beliefs about the origins of the universe.

September 25, 2011 9:17 pm

Steven Mosher;
I dont see smokey or others on this thread debunking Monkton for claiming that C02 in fact warms the planet. He claims 1C per doubling, and cites a reference that has been amended to 1.9K>>>
I believe Lord Moncton in fact acknowledged that he was not aware of amendment. Now, let’s dig a bit deeper into the number itself. I’ve not read the paper being referenced, but I can do some rough math and point out a couple of things.
1. The IPCC quotes 1 degree of direct warming from CO2 doubling based on “doubling” resulting in a forcing of 3.7 w/m2.
2. Stefan Boltzman Law is P=5.67*10^-8*T^4 where P is in w/m2 and T is in degrees K.
3. Do the math. The “average” temperature of the earth surface is most commonly quoted as +15 C or 288 K. Problem: It would take 5.5 w/m2 to raise the temperature from 288 K to 289 K.
4. AR4 neglects to mention at what temperature the sensitivity is calculated at. One had to refer to AR3 for that. Turns out that TAR uses the “effective black body” temperature of the earth, which is about -20 C or 253 K, a temperature that occurs on “average” at the 14,000 foot altitude (roughly).
5. At 3.7 w/m2, one indeed gets a direct effect from CO2 doubling of 1 degree C. Translated to surface temperature however, that’s only about 0.6 C.
Question: Is this not a misleading method of presenting the results?
6. Lost in the jumble of claims and counter claims is the simple fact that CO2 is logarithmic. The IPCC and many others talk about CO2 doubling, and how much sensitivity we should expect from direct and from feedbacks in total. BUT THEY DO IT IN REFERENCE TO 1920 WHEN THE CO2 LEVEL WAS 278 PPM. WE AREN’T AT 278 PPM AND HAVEN’T BEEN FOR NEARLY A CENTURY!
Question: Of what value is this? The CURRENT level is about 400 PPM. If we accept 1.0 per CO2 doubling, or we go with 1.9, are either significant?
I will answer my own question. No. 1.9 at “effective black body” still translates into only about 1.2 at surface. To get 1.2 at surface from a doubling of CO2, we would have to get from 400 PPM to 800 PPM. Based on the last few decades, that should take…about 250 years. To get say 2.4 degrees, we’d need 1,600 PPM and that would take six centuries!
Point being that I have no argument with the notion of CO2 warming the planet. A feedback mechanism however, that could maintain an accelerating or even a linear over all temperature response in the face of a rapidly diminishing (on a “per PPM” basis, simply does not, and can not exist. If you have one to propose, I’d be most interested in how perpetual motion actually works.
I can meet your definition of lukewarmist I suppose, but it is catastrophic or even just significant warming that is the real question.
On that sir, I am a skeptic. Hardcore. and the known physics backs me up.

Brian H
September 26, 2011 12:12 am

dmh;
I am harder core than that. Poaching from Dave Wendt’s notes:

H2O is most effectively suppressing the effects of the other GHGs.

CO2′s contribution to the DLR signal there [tropics and sub-tropics] is limited to 2-3%
[the] whole discussion would appear to be almost moot.

H2O’s “feedback” effect is not only not positive, as the IPCC asserts and requires, it is vigorously negative, even to the point of overshoot. And it is in de facto infinite supply in the Earth’s atmosphere, though its concentration (RH) varies locally from 0-100% geographically and temporally.

Joel Shore
September 26, 2011 4:48 am

Allan Millner says:

Joel, I don’t mean to be insulting but why do you comment on the science of climate change if you are not aware of such basic facts?
I quote the forcing at the TOA because the actual precise forcing is not fully estabished but can be estimated as about a 5% increase.

A 5% increase over 240 W/m^2 is not 65 W/m^2, so my suspicion that you were confusing the solar luminosity with the TOA forcing, which ignores both the geometrical factor of 4 and the albedo, is in fact correct.

“2) Over such time scales, there are lots of other forcings that need to be considered. These include changes in greenhouse gas levels, changes in the locations of continents, oceans, and mountain ranges,”
All true.
However, CAGW’s basic tenet is that any increase in radiative forcing on the Earth MUST lead to an increase in temperature.
You have now admitted that this is that not actually true, that other factors may prevent this. Indeed the Earth may actually cool notwithstanding the increase in radiative forcing. e.g how do we know that the current configuration of continents and oceans etc will mean the Earth will not warm in the face of an increase in RF?

No…What I am saying is that there are other radiative forcings that act over these longer geological timescales that need to be considered.