Frozen Global Warming Research

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A number of nations conduct research in Antarctica. To do research in Antarctica, you need to have an icebreaker. As the old saying goes, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few icebergs … or something like that.

For the last few years, said icebreaker has been the Swedish ship Oden, leased to us by the noble Swedes, who (other than being a bit confused about how to spell the name of the god Odin) built a wonderful dual-purpose icebreaker and research vessel. Here’s a photo of the good ship “Oden”:

Given the dependence of the US McMurdo Sound and Amundsen-Scott South Pole bases on the availability of an icebreaker to allow resupply by ship, it must have been an unpleasant surprise for our Secretary of State, Hillary R. C., to receive the following missive from the aforesaid perfidious Swedes …

This is unfortunate for the scientific work in the Antarctic, as it will require extensive reshuffling of existing studies and projects. However, it does have its ironic side.

The first irony is that the main thing that is brought in by ship, the one thing that really can’t be brought in by plane, is fossil fuel. Can’t do global warming research without fossil fuel, particularly in Antarctica, and running a couple of US bases through an Antarctic winter takes a lot of fossil fuel.

The second irony is that research into global warming is being curtailed by, of all things, too much ice. Or as Mr. Bildt described it, “transport delays due to vessels having been blocked by ice.” 

I do feel bad and have compassion for the scientists and the scientific studies that will be disturbed, and I know I’m on the primrose path to perdition for saying this, but it’s hard not to enjoy the spectacle of scientists who can’t do global warming research because the Northern Hemisphere is too cold.

w.

PS—As of a few days ago, the US has lined up an icebreaker, the Ignatyuk, to replace the Oden. It is run by a Russian firm, the Murmansk Shipping Company. So that’s good news. Unfortunately it is not set up as a research vessel, just an icebreaker, but it can break the path for the tankers.

It will steam off  from Murmansk half way round the world, burning lots and lots of fossil fuel, to clear the ice to allow the tankers to deliver much more fossil fuel to McMurdo Sound and even send fossil fuel to the South Pole to power inter alia the global warming research …

So there’s the final irony—with the laying up of the US Coast Guard “Polar Star” icebreaker, and the decommissioning of the “Polar Sea” icebreaker, the US has only the lightweight “Healy”, not fit for the Antarctic needs. So the US is reduced to renting an icebreaker from a Russian shipping company … and some folks in Alaska are not happy about that state of affairs.

[UPDATE] From some of the comments below, it’s clear that my eco-felony in writing this is admitting to feeling “schadenfreude”, which means taking pleasure in your opponents misfortunes. It’s one of those emotions that everyone has, but nobody is supposed to admit they have. What, you never laughed when irony overtook your opponent? And you gotta admit, global warming research cancelled because of too much ice? That’s funny anywhere.

I’m no different than the rest in relishing life’s ironic turns, except for the fact that I’m willing to admit that I’m not PC (politically correct) in the slightest, and to take the inevitable heat for saying so. Consider it my small protest at the ongoing vanillafication of the planet.

0 0 votes
Article Rating
198 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
September 7, 2011 12:16 am

Not happy in Alaska? I can’t think why. To have a good relationship with old enemies someone has got to start by breaking the ice.

September 7, 2011 12:27 am

hehe.. the same goes for travel to low Earth orbit, hire your transport from the Russians.

Mike Bromley the Kurd
September 7, 2011 12:28 am

Dang, Willis, this is the second time in as many weeks your post has caused me to snork a mouthful of tea. Those darn ‘warmest-ever’ Boreal winters are sure making a slush-pile out of all that Baltic ice, again.

halfacow
September 7, 2011 12:30 am

“it’s hard not to enjoy the spectacle”
That really does say a whole lot more about this site, your character and your motivation to the public than you probably realise. Enjoy your self indulgent and childish chuckle to yourself as civilisation misses an opportunity to expand on our understanding of the planet we inhabit.
‘burning lots and lots’
What is that in SI units?

Wil
September 7, 2011 12:30 am

Hey, Canada would loan them an icebreaker BUT all ours are busy wintertime breaking ice for our own citizens with an actual Arctic Ocean that freezes to the pole. Plus real live icebergs off our eastern seaboard and winter freeze up stranding coastal communities that need food and services in winter. You know, the none AGW season in Canada we call winter. Who knew? What is also not lost on me was the reason why the Swedes needed their ice breaker – too much ice during their none AGW season – winter. What ever happened to ice free Europe never mind the Arctic?

Caleb
September 7, 2011 12:33 am

Hmmm. Are the Swedes expecting colder weather in the Baltic, this year? I thought the past two winters were flukes, or “outliers.”

Perry
September 7, 2011 12:34 am

I am confident that readers of WUWT will recall the last winter, when the Sea of Okhotst froze rather more solidly than expected. It suprised the Russians, that’s for sure. Dr. Richard A. North catalogued the sage over 29 posts on his site.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/search/label/Okhotsk%20Sea
The NH winter to come is going to be nasty. Prepare!

gnomish
September 7, 2011 12:42 am

too much irony in my diet now, willis.
i have to laugh it out!

tallbloke
September 7, 2011 12:43 am

Britain gave up its shipbuilding capacity years ago. A sad state of affairs for an island nation with a once proud history of world leading engineering prowess. The world’s first ‘icebreaker’ capable ship was I.K. Brunel’s iron built ship SS Great Britain. http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/ssGreatBritain.htm
I suppose we still have the Channel Tunnel. 🙁

Paul Deacon
September 7, 2011 12:48 am

Tallbloke, I believe Napoleon considered digging a Channel Tunnel in order to invade Britain.

September 7, 2011 1:09 am

1. Any fule no that the evil fossil fuel is rendered good by virtue of the use to which it is put. Preventing the elderly from dying of Hypothermia is BAD, whilst gathering the Faithful at Cancun or Copenhagen is GOOD.
2. There is an old story that when a Nepalese war party was stranded by a Himalayan blizzard and running out of food, the priest in the party blessed the yaks used as pack animals and declared that they were no longer cattle, thus ensuring the survival of the party.
Maybe Pope Al, Head of the Church of AGW, can be persuaded to do similar to ensure the survival of global warming research in the Antartic?

September 7, 2011 1:19 am

halfacow says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:30 am
“it’s hard not to enjoy the spectacle”
That really does say a whole lot more about this site, your character and your motivation to the public than you probably realise. Enjoy your self indulgent and childish chuckle to yourself as civilisation misses an opportunity to expand on our understanding of the planet we inhabit.
Garethman says,
A little harsh there Halfacow? As a luke warmist I give Willis a fair amount of stick when I think he is wrong, but on this issue I think it’s natural to see Willis’ own take on the science being strangely supported by those who oppose them as a somewhat entertaining, especially for Willis. If Willis was wrong in some fundamental concepts, and you were proved right, would you not experience some degree of Schadenfreude ? Or are you saying you would remain entirely objective at all times? To take amusement at such issues is better than becoming cynical about the whole science. I’m sure the Antarctic bases will be OK and the science will continue.

TimM
September 7, 2011 1:34 am

halfacow, while I admit to having a laugh about this state of affairs myself, and also to laughing about Heathrow being shut down because they weren’t prepared for cold weather, I failed to laugh about the millions that died from food shortages caused by perverse subsidies for converting crops for biofuels. How about you?

Willis Eschenbach
September 7, 2011 1:44 am

halfacow says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:30 am

“it’s hard not to enjoy the spectacle”

That really does say a whole lot more about this site, your character and your motivation to the public than you probably realise. Enjoy your self indulgent and childish chuckle to yourself as civilisation misses an opportunity to expand on our understanding of the planet we inhabit.

Actually, we haven’t missed any opportunity at all, because the icebreaker has been replaced. Didn’t you read the whole article? Your lack of realization that nobody lost anything and that I was just laughing at the foolishness of it all says a whole lot more about your culture and your motivation than you probably realize. I enjoyed the irony and nobody ran out of fossil fuel, get over yourself.

‘burning lots and lots’

What is that in SI units?

A whole big metric bunch?
w.

Swede
September 7, 2011 1:47 am

Oden is Odin in Swedish.

old44
September 7, 2011 1:50 am

But why do you need an icebreaker now that the ice has all melted?

John Marshall
September 7, 2011 1:57 am

Fossil fuel is available in Antarctica as coal, on the Antarctic peninsula, but international treaties prohibit any mineral of fossil fuel extraction there.
So hoist by their own petard again.

JPG
September 7, 2011 2:09 am

Does any one know the effect of icebreakers on the sea ice extents? By breaking up the ice and carving many channels through the sea ice it would melt faster (esp come spring/summer) wouldn’t it, and perhaps reduce the extents somewhat. More shipping leads to more ice breaking, leading to less sea ice.

StuartMcL
September 7, 2011 2:30 am

‘burning lots and lots’
What is that in SI units?
A whole big metric bunch?
A shit^Hpload?

gnomish
September 7, 2011 2:34 am

hey gary.larson.joke:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/icebreaker.htm
Under the current operations, the USCG icebreaker typically arrives at 60 deg S on or about December 25. Anticipated departure from McMurdo is mid-February of the following year (6-8 weeks after arrival). The basic tasks are to open a channel to the McMurdo Station pier, and escort a tanker and a freighter through the sea ice and channel to the pier and back to the open ocean as required. By 2008 the overriding question was how to open the channel through the ice to McMurdo Station so that year-round operation of the nation’s McMurdo and South Pole stations can continue. This year-round occupation is central to demonstrating the “active and influential presence” which is the cornerstone of U.S. policy in Antarctica as articulated in Presidential Memorandum No. 6646 on U.S. Antarctic Policy and Programs (February 5, 1982).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oden_(icebreaker)
Name: Oden
Owner: Swedish Maritime Administration
General characteristics
Type: Icebreaker
Tonnage: 9 438 GRT
Installed power: 18.0 MW
Propulsion: Diesel mechanical
Speed: 16 knots
Range: 30 000 nautical miles or 55 600 km
Capacity: 80 passengers and crew
To get them all the raw materials to produce CO2, down there, the icebreaker has to visit.
http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/library/specialreports/SR95_17.pdf
Table 2. Estimates of daily fuel consumption for a Polar-class icebreaker.
Fuel consumption rate
Ship status (gallons/day) (tons/day)*
Stationary—systems providing only
normal hotel services 4,000 12
Open water transit (three propulsion diesel) 14,000 42
Icebreaking (six propulsion diesel) 25,000 75
Icebreaking (diesel on wing shafts,
gas turbine on center shaft) 35,000 105
Icebreaking (three gas turbines) 60,000 180
* Relation used for conversion: 1000 gallons/day » 3 tons/day.
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/08/icebreaker-deal-to-keep-antarctic.html
The largest component by far is the 5 million gallons of diesel fuel used to run the stations and fly the planes that ferry researchers to various sites on the frozen continent.
http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/43856/
Year-round and summer science projects are supported at McMurdo. Its summer population reaches 1100; the winter population of McTown is about 150.

John
September 7, 2011 2:36 am

Posted in uncategorized, it should be posted in Humour.
It’s the best laugh I’ve had all day.

September 7, 2011 2:56 am

We don’t have a base on the moon, I can’t see why taxpayers should fund a bunch of self indulgent scientists to do research in Antarctica. It’s not like you would be allowed to drill for oil or mine coal or anything else. Useless. They’ve had over 50 years to figure it out. Enough is enough.

September 7, 2011 2:58 am

did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning halfacow ?

Tom Harley
September 7, 2011 3:15 am

Willis, I don’t know if it’s right, as I don’t have access to Nature Journal of Science but Big Government is reporting, the publication has stated that AGW is false. This must mean curtains for the warmist hypothesis. there must be choking over the cereal bowls in the US climate science institutions this morning, and coffee exploded over the computer screens. http://pindanpost.com/2011/09/07/man-made-climate-change-hypothesis-smashed-once-and-for-all/
Copied from Big Government in full here.

September 7, 2011 3:20 am

Swede says:
September 7, 2011 at 1:47 am
Oden is Odin in Swedish.

w.’s point is that almost all Swedish words are misspelt. >:)

Viv Evans
September 7, 2011 3:27 am

Can we say ‘ice coming home to roost’?
These top science bureaucrats are believers in ‘no more cold winters and snow because of AGW’ – so why keep ice breakers?
The same happened here in the UK last winter: local councils up and down the country had run out of road gritting before mid December – because a) there would be no more winter; b) the MET Office had said the winter would be mild; c) stocking up on gritting would not be cost effective when winters are a thing of the past …
Well, we all know what happened next.
So will this experience change the minds of the science bureaucrats? One doubts this.

September 7, 2011 3:38 am

IIRC, a nuclear-powered ice-breaker wouldn’t be permitted in Antarctic waters by “Convention”.

September 7, 2011 3:47 am

tallbloke said:

I suppose we still have the Channel Tunnel. 🙁

Not if you have the wrong snow.
Invest in steam locomotives. They’re the only all-weather trains in the UK. 😉

RockyRoad
September 7, 2011 3:49 am

halfacow should direct his ire to Jack Frost, not Willis. Jack Frost is the real culprit here; Willis is simply the messenger.
(Now how did Jack Frost find the wherewithall to do his develish deed? Or has Al Gore been spending his winters in the Baltic, and the Arctic, and the…)

Joseph
September 7, 2011 3:58 am

Look, if the Europeans are seeing colder winters and even their governments acknowledge this by planing for it, as your example outlines, how does the Team continue to play hockey?
I understand that England is planning to have many of their people “enjoy” the dark and cold without power soon to “save” the planet from the trace gas CO2. Can they keep this up?

Alex
September 7, 2011 4:05 am

Oden is the correct modern swedish name, Odin is old style nordic. Don’t tell us how to spell our gods names 😉
And Thor should be spelled Tor, take note marvel comics.

HaroldW
September 7, 2011 4:08 am

I think “halfacow” needs Geritol — he has irony-poor blood.
[Only persons of a certain age will know the allusion.]

Neil Jones
September 7, 2011 4:39 am

A little O/T but related to ice
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/8746165/Arctic-sea-ice-falls-to-record-low.html
Apparently their computer model says it’s thinner now than it’s ever been. Why didn’t they just measure it?

MangoChutney
September 7, 2011 4:40 am

Could extensive use of ice-breakers be the cause of breaking ice and melting?
not sure if i am serious with that comment

Sam Hall
September 7, 2011 4:49 am

Bernd Felsche says:
September 7, 2011 at 3:38 am
IIRC, a nuclear-powered ice-breaker wouldn’t be permitted in Antarctic waters by “Convention”.

Nuclear power is fine in Antarctica, just no nuclear weapons. The U.S. Navy operated a nuclear plant at McMurdo for ten years 1962-1972.

Sandy Rham
September 7, 2011 4:55 am
jones
September 7, 2011 5:01 am

”John Marshall says:
September 7, 2011 at 1:57 am
Fossil fuel is available in Antarctica as coal, on the Antarctic peninsula, but international treaties prohibit any mineral of fossil fuel extraction there.”
For now.

Sean
September 7, 2011 5:08 am

Isn’t it rich. The US Coast Guard can’t provide access to research stations in Antartica and NASA can’t provide access to the international Space Station. Meanwhile the government spends billions to produce expensive, unreliable electricity and the most expensive healthcare in the world.

Swede
September 7, 2011 5:18 am

My point was just that everyone should expect that the Swedish vessel’s name is in, eh, Swedish. So of course it’s name is Oden, not Odin or Islandic name Óðinn.
So where is the confusion of spelling caused by Swedes? But, this is a minor point so I leave it here. Cultural and linguistic background is just a blessing.

Brian S
September 7, 2011 5:39 am

One of the things that started my questioning of the Global Warming theory was that the SANAE 3 base had to be replaced because it was being crushed by the weight of ice that had accumulated on top of it over the few years of its existence – some 30m seem to recall. Also, the Agulhas icebreaker was fitted with a hot water cannon with which to cut an off-loading ramp into the ice cliffs that develop between its annual visits. Then some years back it was called to rescue a Russian ship trapped by the early onset of winter ice.

Stephen Skinner
September 7, 2011 5:54 am

tallbloke says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:43 am
“Britain gave up its shipbuilding capacity years ago”
We did not give it up. One of our leaders chose to block funding to upgrade the ship yards on the grounds that ship building was old fashioned, ignoring the fact that 2/3rds of the world’s surface is sea! Now,all the luxury liners and some of the large utility ships that come into ports like Southampton have been built by old economies such as Germany, France, Italy and Norway that did upgrade their yards and where labour costs are not cheap.

Staffan Lindström
September 7, 2011 5:54 am

September 7, 2011 at 3:38 am
…Bernd, I think no country in the SH has a nuclear icebreaker, and tropical waters are too hot to be cooling the reactor…correct me somebody if I’m wrong…?! Reawakening the “Manhattan project” and make it/them a/some clean steamship/s….that would do the trick…South Africa and China and Australia…???

Tom Harley
September 7, 2011 5:57 am

Just for ‘halfacow’, I have posted an obituary here: http://pindanpost.com/2011/09/07/anthropogenic-climate-change-obituary/

September 7, 2011 6:01 am

I definitely get a deep sense of Schadenfreude when I read this sort of thing. Most parasites do not intentionally seek to destroy the host (they just want to feed off it), yet in the bizarro world of environmental activism, they not only seek to do so, they revel in it.

John Silver
September 7, 2011 6:15 am

Ach, Schadenfreude, mon amour.

September 7, 2011 6:19 am

As a Swede I like to point out that Oden and a few other icebreakers are paid by the Swedish taxpayers to keep the ship lanes open during the winters.
Good to see that the likelihood of colder winters in the coming years is now acknowledge by the government.
How long it will take until they realize the CAGW is a mirage is anyone’s guess.

Coach Springer
September 7, 2011 6:26 am

Why don’t they just install several hundred thousand acres of solar panels and a couple of batteries? Or a hundred acres of 5-story wind turbines and several hundred thousand batteries to keep them warm enough to operate, the steel in the towers from being too brittle, and the snow and ice from piling up around them?

Alan the Brit
September 7, 2011 6:27 am

Excellent post & I get the irony, being British I have like many fellow Countrymen, watched our once proud seafaring nation become poorer & poorer, less & less well equipped, with skills reduced to that of rank amatuers, all because of political ideology & the desire to look to the PDREU for our future, as opposed to your good selves as we used to do!!! You chaps & chapesses in the Virginian Colonies will be next, & you can see it happening before your very eyes, like the train wreck in slow motion, you see it happening, but are powerless to prevent it!
Then there is this little gem whilst we’re in the area:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14803840
No scientific evidence of what caused these little chaps to be where they are, & no evidence that they haven’t always been there, or that it is not a natural occurrence! Just what “experts” didn’t expect to see, & some guess work, rather like those “experts” who claimed tigers couldn’t live above a certain altitude in Bhutan until they filmed them where they shouldn’t be!

Olen
September 7, 2011 6:46 am

The lesson here is that sovereign nations look out for their own best interest first and is it about time the US looked out for the best interest of the US first for a change and for the better?

mkelly
September 7, 2011 6:54 am

halfacow says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:30 am
Would it have been better if the ice breakers were under sail?

September 7, 2011 6:55 am

@ Neil Jones
Bouys, submarines, and vaerious ships have been measuring arctic sea ice all summer.
There will be a comprehensive report come out in October. We have never had the level of detail this summer before in measuring thickness of arctic sea ice.
Which has turned out to be record thin. Which is likely attributed to record warm ssts in the arctic.
if you want to see for your self look up MODIS.
http://lance-modis.eosdis.nasa.gov/imagery/subsets/?mosaic=Arctic.2011250.aqua.4km
You can see the ice all over fraying and cracking because it’s so thin..many places the last week have started to crack like large river like cracks. not chunks.
Chunks of ice can form up to 4-5 meters thick. but mostly 2-3 meters. These cracks are caused from the ice being pushed by the winds in different directions and the ice is not strong enough so it severs.
Currently Jaxa sea ice extent is 2nd all time at 4,567,000km2
Bremen which uses a higher resolution sensor is 2nd at only 60,00km2 behind 2007.
NSIDC is around 4,500,000km2 or lower now.
The weather is not good the next 7-10 days with compacting winds and record warm 850mb temp anomalies moving in day 4-10.

tallbloke
September 7, 2011 6:56 am

Stephen Skinner says:
September 7, 2011 at 5:54 am
tallbloke says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:43 am
“Britain gave up its shipbuilding capacity years ago”
We did not give it up. One of our leaders chose to block funding to upgrade the ship yards on the grounds that ship building was old fashioned, ignoring the fact that 2/3rds of the world’s surface is sea!

Tell me about it. I was in Trafalgar Square in 1984 fighting riot cops in an effort to overthrow the mad bitch.

Jim Lindsay
September 7, 2011 6:58 am

Tom Harley says:…..http://pindanpost.com/2011/09/07/man-made-climate-change-hypothesis-smashed-once-and-for-all/
I read the linked story but no link to Nature. Checked Nature web site and couldn’t figure out which article they are talking about. Can anybody help?

Stephen Skinner
September 7, 2011 7:04 am

JPG says:
September 7, 2011 at 2:09 am
“Does any one know the effect of icebreakers on the sea ice extents? ”
Ice breaking on the Great Lakes is used to precipitate the spring melt. Would you agree that is because once the ice is broken there is more surface area to melt as well as weakening the structural integrity of the ice? All the rules and knowledge regarding land locked ice should apply to sea ice as the physics can’t be much different. For example, those who do ice fishing on the lakes up near Yellowknife are advised to beware of ice that has been thinned by the actions of shoaling fish. Fish swimming in circles just below the ice disturb the stable layers of water bringing warmer water closer to the surface. Consider then several thousand tonnes of submarine travelling under the arctic ice and how this could disturb the stability of the thermohaline, thereby bringing warmer water from below.
I would expect either ice breakers or submarines to have little effect when the ice is re-freezing, but once the melt season begins and particularly during the peak of summer melt then I do not see how such activities will have no effect. All surface and subsurface activity in polar regions has increased considerably over the last 50 years from almost nothing to everything from scientific, military, commercial, prospecting, community support and tourism. Looking at the following image Arctic ice instability appears to commence around the 1950s:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2010.png
I know I have committed a crime by trying to make connections here from the comfort of my home and I’m not a climate scientist, so I should be mute, but Lewis Gordon Pugh did not receive any criticism when he tried to make dubious connections between his ability to swim in open water at the pole and global warming.

ferd berple
September 7, 2011 7:11 am

This is good news for Canada. For years the US failed to recognize Canada’s claim to the Arctic as a result of the vast network of islands stretching northwards from Canada’s northern shoreline. Mothballing the US icebreaker fleet is defacto recognition that the US no longer has any national interests in polar regions. This opens up millions of square miles of the arctic to Canadian oil exploration.
US policy in this regard is of course a result of climate change. The US government through its science agencies such as NSF and NASA believes that the polar regions will soon be ice free and thus there is no reason for icebreakers.
The truth of this is self-evident because these agencies receive billions of dollars in taxpayer money to say that it is so. If it wasn’t true why would the government continue to give them money to say it was? Therefore it must be true, otherwise the government would be wasting money. And the government would never do that. After all, they spend every dollar like it was coming out of someone else’s pocket.

tom T
September 7, 2011 7:15 am

Hey Hafeacow, Lighten up! Nothing worse than someone without a sense of humor.

ferd berple
September 7, 2011 7:18 am

Sean says:
September 7, 2011 at 5:08 am
“Isn’t it rich. The US Coast Guard can’t provide access to research stations in Antarctica and NASA can’t provide access to the international Space Station. Meanwhile the government spends billions to produce expensive, unreliable electricity and the most expensive healthcare in the world.”
Add jobs to the growing list of things the US isn’t able to produce.

Swede
September 7, 2011 7:23 am

You can be sure we Know how to spell Odin in Swedish, Oden.

Steeptown
September 7, 2011 7:30 am

Why do they need fossil fuel in the Antarctic? Surely renewable energy is the way to go. Wind turbines (they never ice up we’re told) and solar panels (they work at night and when covered in snow we’re told) give reliable and constant energy (we’re told). What’s sauce for us geese is sauce for them gander.

ferd berple
September 7, 2011 7:31 am

Bernd Felsche says:
September 7, 2011 at 3:38 am
IIRC, a nuclear-powered ice-breaker wouldn’t be permitted in Antarctic waters by “Convention”.
Vancouver is also nuclear free – according to our local city council. Apparently this provides us a protection shield from nuclear missiles landing on the city in case of war. It has successfully prevented US nuclear aircraft carriers from invading our local waters and draining our local beer supply.
However many homes in Vancouver use smoke detectors with radioactive material in their sensors, in direct violation of our nuclear shield. North Korea has taken note of our provocative stance and resumed their own nuclear ambitions. One has to wonder how many of these nuclear armed smoke detectors have made their way to the south pole.

Sleepalot
September 7, 2011 7:31 am

to “gnomish” Thank you very much – that was very useful.

G. Karst
September 7, 2011 7:45 am

Just imagine, if no replacement for the Oden could be found. the headline would have read:
Antarctic Global Warming Research Canceled/Delayed due to Extensive Global Cooling

Its a strange, strange world we live in master Jack.
No hard feelings, if I never come back
You taught me all the things the way you’d like them to be
But I’d like to see if other people agree
It’s all very interesting the way you disguise
But I’d like to see the world through my own eyes
Its a strange, strange world we live in master Jack.
No hard feelings, if I never come back… Spiro D. Markantonatos

September 7, 2011 8:03 am

Another fine example regarding our shrinking infrastructure; it is typical political incompetence on the part of our U.S. leadership.
The Russians are producing larger more effective ice breakers. They understand what most Phd.’s obviously need billions of grant dollars to understand: Wind moves ice cubes more effectively than solid unbroken ice sheets.

Taphonomic
September 7, 2011 8:21 am

Once again, the government outsourcing jobs to a foreign country.

DaveF
September 7, 2011 8:53 am

G. Karst 7:45am:
Crikey, G.K, you must be as ancient as me! Four Jacks and a Jill – 1968, wasn’t it? Some old memories there!

Nuke Nemesis
September 7, 2011 9:10 am

But Willis, it’s consistent with the models!
(Bonus points for those who understand sarcasm without the /sarc tag)

Willis Eschenbach
September 7, 2011 9:16 am

Brian H says:
September 7, 2011 at 3:20 am

Swede says:
September 7, 2011 at 1:47 am

Oden is Odin in Swedish.

w.’s point is that almost all Swedish words are misspelt. >:)

Thanks for the explanation, Brian. I didn’t have the heart to tell the Swede the bad news …
w.

September 7, 2011 9:21 am

That´s surely an undesirable consequence of the prevalent “global warming” acting through the well known “Gore effect”, which for all practical purposes, decreases temperature and increases ice…sadly indeed!

Geoffrey Withnell
September 7, 2011 9:33 am

ferd berple;
“This is good news for Canada. For years the US failed to recognize Canada’s claim to the Arctic as a result of the vast network of islands stretching northwards from Canada’s northern shoreline. Mothballing the US icebreaker fleet is defacto recognition that the US no longer has any national interests in polar regions. This opens up millions of square miles of the arctic to Canadian oil exploration.”
I suspect the residents of Alaska would dispute you on this.
Geoff Withnell

richard verney
September 7, 2011 9:37 am

What’s wrong with telling the Swedish how to spell the name of their gods!!
I always thought that the Norse god was Odin, or is that just because that is the way that the Norwegians spell it, and as the Norwegians claim; there are only 2 types of people in the world, those who are Norwegians, and those who wish they were Norwegians!

September 7, 2011 9:37 am

Willis,
Swedish is spelled just like it’s pronounced.

TimC
September 7, 2011 9:48 am

Tallbloke said “Britain gave up its shipbuilding capacity years ago”; Stephen Skinner said “one of our leaders chose to block funding.”
These are not true characterisations. British Shipbuilders Corporation (the British shipbuilding industry, nationalised in its entirety by PM Harold Wilson in 1977) was de-nationalised in 1983 on the basis that it should no longer be subsidised by taxpayers but should compete as a private sector company in the open market. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Shipbuilders
The Conservative manifesto for the 1983 general election said “We shall transfer more state-owned businesses to independent ownership. Our aim is that British Telecom – where we will sell 51 per cent of the shares to the private sector – Rolls Royce, British Airways and substantial parts of British Steel, of British Shipbuilders and of British Leyland, and as many as possible of Britain’s airports, shall become private sector companies…. As before, we will offer shares to all those who work in them.”
PM Margaret Thatcher (I assume who Tallbloke refers to in his later comment as “the mad bitch”) won the 1983 election on the manifesto above with a huge 142 seat majority. On any constitutional basis she had the democratic mandate to privatise the British shipbuilding industry, despite usual left-wing “tax and spend” protests.
And perhaps more on topic, we Brits bought MV Polar Circle (now HMS Endurance) from the Norwegians in 1990 as our (class 1A1) icebreaker, but it suffered major flooding in 2008 and we have chartered MV Polarbjørn until March 2014, pending the decision whether to refit Endurance.

September 7, 2011 10:02 am

Chris Biscan (@Frivolousz21) says:
September 7, 2011 at 6:55 am
@ Neil Jones
Bouys, submarines, and vaerious ships have been measuring arctic sea ice all summer.
There will be a comprehensive report come out in October. We have never had the level of detail this summer before in measuring thickness of arctic sea ice.
Which has turned out to be record thin. Which is likely attributed to record warm ssts in the arctic.

How could you know if it’s record thin with a record that’s only one summer? You might as well have said it’s record thick.

September 7, 2011 10:16 am

I tell ya, whenever I feel down, this site cheers me up. As bad as the PIOMAS data and NSIDC report are regarding our vanishing Arctic ice cap, and as paralyzed as US policy is in regard to global warming by ideological fools like Inhofe, I was down earlier today. Now I come onto this site, read for a little while, and it becomes apparent that there is order in the world. We as aa species are just too stupid to make it. Thank you everyone here for clearing that up for me. No one cores for Neanderthals, either. Why would they cry for us (whoever will be left)?
And boy, that Bastardi, he is always worth a laugh! So is old Triple Point Goddard! And don’t get me started on Spencer’s banning Obscurity from his site because he kept bringing up science!
You people make our demise worth watching.

Jean Meeus
September 7, 2011 10:24 am

Is it possible that Oden is the modern Swedish spelling, and Odin is Norwegian?
Asteroid No. 3989 has been named Odin “after the first and mightiest god in Norse mythology” (from the official citation by the Minor Planet Center).

stanj
September 7, 2011 10:24 am

Pretty obvious which half of the cow halfacow is talking out of!

Ryan Booth
September 7, 2011 10:26 am

Why can’t our government just pick up another Swedish icebreaker at IKEA?

Anything is possible
September 7, 2011 10:37 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:27 am
“In any case, why can’t Europeans get with the spelling picture, the British can’t even spell aluminum, for goodness sake.”
_________________________________________________________________________
I think you’ll find that the British invented the English language in the first place. It’s you Americans who torture the spelling by dropping any letters that aren’t pronounced phonetically.
Sheer laziness on your part…. (:-

Laurie Bowen
September 7, 2011 10:48 am

Just two . . . a very pretty picture indeed . . . .
Bathers in Antarctic Hot Springs
http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/GR012952/bathers-in-antarctic-hot-springs
Deception Island (62°57’S, 60°38’W)
http://www.deceptionisland.aq/
Do you think there may be more that are “undiscovered”?

September 7, 2011 11:09 am

ferd berple says:
September 7, 2011 at 7:11 am

This is good news for Canada. For years the US failed to recognize Canada’s claim to the Arctic as a result of the vast network of islands stretching northwards from Canada’s northern shoreline. Mothballing the US icebreaker fleet is defacto recognition that the US no longer has any national interests in polar regions. This opens up millions of square miles of the arctic to Canadian oil exploration. …

Not exactly. We moth ball many things…rockets, warships, various aircraft, military bases,etc,..just to name a few. Replacing an artifact with new technology or not replacing is just an indication of a change in where we spend the green. Besides, who wants to go to the frozen north when we can go to the Bahamas, Mexico, Caribbean, French Riviera, or Hawaii?? Why do most of the Canadians live on the U.S. boarder (less Alaska)?
Legal possession often boils down to the guy with the biggest hammer and choice of which battles are worth the cause. eh?

LarryD
September 7, 2011 11:26 am

Anything is possible says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:37 am
I think you’ll find that the British invented the English language in the first place. It’s you Americans who torture the spelling by dropping any letters that aren’t pronounced phonetically.
Sheer laziness on your part…. (:-
No, Webster did it deliberately. Opportunities for spelling reform are rare, and he took the one he had. 😉

September 7, 2011 11:27 am

Got to love the irony. The US can put a small city anywhere in the world – except the frozen places. Aircraft Carriers are nice and pretty, but don’t do too well when all you need to do is part the ice. 😉

Bengt Abelsson
September 7, 2011 11:30 am

http://www.sjofartsverket.se/en/About-us/Activities/Icebreaking/Our-Icebreakers/Research-VesselIcebreaker-Oden/
The smart solution would be if you americans got us the russian icebreaker, and then the Oden would be free to work on the tasks that the russian one cannot do.
Because of political flak, our government cannot risk a third hard icewinter in a row in our sealanes with Oden in the antarctic waters.

September 7, 2011 11:45 am

Too much ice; too little fossil fuel.
One pole attracts; one pole repels.
D*mned if you do; d*mned if you don’t.
North pole; south pole.
Comme ci, comme ça .

Bowen the troll
September 7, 2011 11:50 am

Anything is possible says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:37 am
Actually . . . English is from West German is from Indo-European . . . is from??
http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/pie2.gif
Not the same picture I saw in Noah Webster dictionary (1981) . . . but, simular.

Viv Evans
September 7, 2011 12:09 pm

“the ongoing vanillafication of the planet.”
I’m soo going to steal that, Willis!
🙂

Mike
September 7, 2011 12:16 pm

Just a side note:
Giant red crabs invade the Antarctic abyss
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20876-giant-red-crabs-invade-the-antarctic-abyss.html
They have a cool – or should I say warming – video.

John Silver
September 7, 2011 12:22 pm

Nah, it’s spelled Wotan or Woden.

John Silver
September 7, 2011 12:32 pm

Willis said:
“Well, I suspect the Neanderthals won’t cry for us at all, for a very simple reason—they’re all dead.”
No, they’re not completely dead, they are part of us. Of you too, unless you are African.

Ken Harvey
September 7, 2011 12:48 pm

Nuke Nemesis says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:10 am
“But Willis, it’s consistent with the models!
(Bonus points for those who understand sarcasm without the /sarc tag)”
Indeed yes, and more points for those who can distinguish sarcasm from satire. In its day those who read Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels and thought that it was a book for children instead of satire aimed specifically at the science community, needed some /sarc tags to put them straight.

Nuke Nemesis
September 7, 2011 12:52 pm

Timothy Hanes says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:16 am
I tell ya, whenever I feel down, this site cheers me up. As bad as the PIOMAS data and NSIDC report are regarding our vanishing Arctic ice cap, and as paralyzed as US policy is in regard to global warming by ideological fools like Inhofe, I was down earlier today. Now I come onto this site, read for a little while, and it becomes apparent that there is order in the world. We as aa species are just too stupid to make it. Thank you everyone here for clearing that up for me. No one cores for Neanderthals, either. Why would they cry for us (whoever will be left)?
And boy, that Bastardi, he is always worth a laugh! So is old Triple Point Goddard! And don’t get me started on Spencer’s banning Obscurity from his site because he kept bringing up science!
You people make our demise worth watching.

In the future, humans will have a sense of humor genetically engineered out of them. In the second phase, we will have a gene that can be toggled on and off from a central command site so that humor may only be express for ideas, people or things officially approved as deserving ridicule.
This is for our own good, as aa species, of course.

nc
September 7, 2011 1:33 pm

If there is not a turn around the US will soon be a has-been if not already, ferd berple check this out. It is the Russians Canada has to be aware of in the Arctic. not the Americans. Near the bottom check out floating nuke plants.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf45.html

Duster
September 7, 2011 1:35 pm

Pity the Russians won’t lease on of their nuclear-powered ice breakers. That cool off the CO2 hysteria just a bit. Perhaps we could offer to the lease the Lenin-class Yamal.

F. Ross
September 7, 2011 1:44 pm

Anything is possible says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:37 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:27 am
“In any case, why can’t Europeans get with the spelling picture, the British can’t even spell aluminum, for goodness sake.”

_________________________________________________________________________
I think you’ll find that the British invented the English language in the first place. It’s you Americans who torture the spelling by dropping any letters that aren’t pronounced phonetically.
Sheer laziness on your part…. (:-

“…
In Hartford, Hereford , and Hampshire
Hurricanes hardly ever happen …”

Louis Hooffstetter
September 7, 2011 1:45 pm

Mike Borgelt says:
“We don’t have a base on the moon, I can’t see why taxpayers should fund a bunch of self indulgent scientists to do research in Antarctica. It’s not like you would be allowed to drill for oil or mine coal or anything else. Useless. They’ve had over 50 years to figure it out. Enough is enough.”
Quite right! – And here’s the kicker: Antarctica is nearly twice the size of the continental US. At least one seventh of the world’s mineral wealth is already there, completely untapped. If governments want their scientists to continue Antarctic research, they should pony-up the cash to drill a couple of wells and build a small refinery. Technology is not the problem, it’s the eco-nazis who want to set aside one of the earth’s seven continents (the most barren and desolate one at that) as a penguin and whale sanctuary.

Alan Watt
September 7, 2011 1:49 pm

Several things. First, although I don’t like her politics, Hillary R. Clinton is the U.S. Secretary of State, the most senior member of the cabinet. As such, official correspondence should be addressed to “Secretary Clinton”, or “Madam Secretary”, not just “Dear Hillary”. Have I missed something, or has the blight of assumed familiarity infected even diplomatic communications?
Second, look on the bright sight: this is a potential jobs program! We need to hire American workers to build state-of-the-art American research icebreakers! Even better: build *green* icebreakers, powered by a combination of solar and wind technologies. I can just see the stimulus $$ flowing now …
It is indeed ironic that global warming research requires a significant expenditure of fossil fuel. Perhaps we could make a gesture towards reducing greenhouse emissions by mandating that all climate change research projects be entirely powered by zero-carbon technologies. Didn’t I read somewhere that with the right policies 70% of our energy needs could be met by renewables? Surely dedicated researchers trying to save the planet should jump at the chance to prove that we really don’t need fossil fuels, for example using bicycle pedal generators to power their climate model computers …

Jimmy Haigh
September 7, 2011 2:00 pm

“…I’m willing to admit that I’m not PC in the slightest, and to take the inevitable heat for saying so. ”
Good on you Willis. Me too.

Bowen the Troll
September 7, 2011 2:08 pm

Nuke Nemesis says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:52 pm “In the future, humans will have a sense of humor genetically engineered out of them.”
In the past, Germans had the sense of humor socially engineered out of them . . . . as I learned in the history of the Reich’s . . . because laughing or even smiling was considered a sign of disrespect and insubordination . . . That’s why there only a very few and far between such as things as a “german” joke . . . not /sarc

September 7, 2011 2:25 pm

Willis, you say that Brits can’t spell ‘aluminum’.
It’s worse than you think. We spell the word ‘rutabaga’ s-w-e-d-e.

Gary Hladik
September 7, 2011 2:25 pm

Sam Hall says (September 7, 2011 at 4:49 am): “Nuclear power is fine in Antarctica, just no nuclear weapons. The U.S. Navy operated a nuclear plant at McMurdo for ten years 1962-1972.”
When I read the part about fossil fuel transport and consumption in Antarctica, the first thing I thought was, “Hey, what a great place to put nuclear reactors!” So I looked up small nuclear reactors on the Web and found the Wiki article on McMurdo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Station
which mentioned that the reactor replaced up to 1500 gallons of fossil fuel per day.
Just think how useful a nuke would be at the South Pole. You have unlimited cooling water, the “waste” heat is as valuable as the electricity, you can fuel your vehicles with locally produced hydrogen, and you can grow food locally year-round in nuclear-lit greenhouses.
Best to get started now and prepare for the influx of global warming refugees. 🙂

Sven-Ove Johansson
September 7, 2011 2:44 pm

“Oden” is the correct swedish spelling!
Oden, or “Odin”, has the following additional names, all with correct swedish spelling:
Allfader
Atrid
Biflinde
Bileyg
Båleyg
Bölverk
Enöga
Feng
Fimbultul
Fimbultyr
Fjölne
Fjölsvinn
Framtyr
Gagnråd
Ganglere
Gautr
Gestumblinde
Glapsvinn
Grim
Grimner
Gaut
Göndle
Hangadrott
Hangatyr
Har
Harbard
Have
Helblinde
Herblinde
Herjafader
Herjan
Herteit
Hjalmbere
Hnikar
Hropt
Hroptatyr
Hroptatyr
Hrossharsgrani
Härfader
Härfader
Jafnhar
Jalk
Jolner
Karl
Kjalar
Knikud
Korpguden
Ofne
Ome
Oske
Rafnatyr
Raner
Ropt
Roptatyr
Rögne
Sann
Sanngetal
Sidgrane
Sidhatt
Sidskägg
Sigfader
Sigtyr
Skilfing
Svafne
Svidre
Svidur
Svipal
Tekk
Tredje
Tro
Tund
Tunn
Tvegge
Unn
Vafud
Vaker
Valfader
Vegtam
Veratyr
Vidre
Vidur
Ygg

September 7, 2011 3:24 pm

Willis- Excellent example of the conservative mind and how it reacts to global warming! I see you have issues with spelling. Brilliant! Flawed economic analysis, ignoring the fact corporations sit on over $1 trillion in profits, money has never been cheaper for the US gov to borrow, and we need corporations to spend, and a giant jobs program to avoid a deflationary spiral, and you’ll NEVER get that! Just the opposite. Then a little later, rooting for your side, I notice, nice tribalism, oh and excellent use of punctuation to avoid having to deal with the vanishing Arctic icecap. Oh, yeah, Antarctica, nice, irrelevant and inaccurate cherry picking ( ever hear of Larsen B? Or ozone, or snowfall, or-never mind). But no real interest in the truth.
Oh, by the way, I mention Bastardi because he made a hilariously inaccurate prediction over here on WTF, ABOUT this year. About arctic ice.you really,
you should embrace him, he’s right up your alley.

John Whitman
September 7, 2011 3:26 pm

Willis,
Nice pic of an icebreaker. BUT it is not a nuc. Nuc icebreakers rule!!!
John

gofer
September 7, 2011 3:30 pm

There was a recent show on directv regarding McMurdo and it’s a small city. They even have a soft-serve ice cream machine. Since they have been there for years polluting with CO2, what have they accomplished?? Is anything worthwhile coming out of there except a place for adventure types to go?? All I saw was them blowing a hole in the ice….isn’t that special?? Along with a lot of staring at computer graphs…seems like a cold version of hell.

September 7, 2011 3:35 pm

LWR’s can’t produce nukes, only graphite moderated ones, or similar, do.

jacob9uk
September 7, 2011 3:43 pm

Mea culpa, mea culpa! I’m a Swede – although a resident of UK for almost a decade now – so I should feel ashamed, I know I know. But maybe I should get exonerated because I’ve been staying away from Swedish shores for most of the time, although I’ve been visiting from time to time with friends and family in Åland which is an island situated in in an archipelago off the coast of Finland. Halfway between Sweden and Finland.
But I don’t. Feel ashamed, I mean. Swedish politicians believe unanimously in CAGW and these past frigging cold and snowridden Swedish winters have done nothing to change their attitude.
Mr. Bildt can have it. When it comes to climate science, or any science, he’s a nitwit just like his Environmental Minister Carlgren. None of them care a bit for real science.

John Whitman
September 7, 2011 3:49 pm

Sven-Ove Johansson says:
September 7, 2011 at 2:44 pm
———–
Sven-Ove Johansson,
Your comment reminds me of “The Nine Billion Names of God” science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke.
The question that I always immediately have about ‘gods’ is, ‘Are they good gods or bad gods?’
Also, it reminds me of gods wrt to superiority as in “”Superiority” which is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, Good stuff on the god topic.
John

Gary Hladik
September 7, 2011 3:49 pm

Bowen the Troll says (September 7, 2011 at 2:08 pm): “In the past, Germans had the sense of humor socially engineered out of them . . . . as I learned in the history of the Reich’s . . .”
Which explains why the Third Reich had no defense against the Allies’ secret weapon:

John Whitman
September 7, 2011 3:53 pm

Louis Hissink says:
September 7, 2011 at 3:35 pm
LWR’s can’t produce nukes, only graphite moderated ones, or similar, do.
—————
Louis Hissink,
Nucs.
The entire US nuc navy to the contrary not withstanding.
John

Louise
September 7, 2011 3:56 pm

This is arctic rather than antarctic but still relevant to this discussion;
http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2011/09/piomas-august-2011.html
How does this tie in with ‘we’re heading for global cooling’ which I hear here quite a lot?

Stephen Skinner
September 7, 2011 4:05 pm

TimC says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:48 am
Tallbloke said “Britain gave up its shipbuilding capacity years ago”; Stephen Skinner said “one of our leaders chose to block funding.”
“These are not true characterisations. British Shipbuilders Corporation (the British shipbuilding industry, nationalised in its entirety by PM Harold Wilson in 1977) was de-nationalised in 1983 on the basis that it should no longer be subsidised by taxpayers but should compete as a private sector company in the open market.”
This was in the Independent Wednesday 1 Sept 1993
‘European Commission subsidies for nine British shipyards were sacrificed by the Government in 1985 to get Brussels approval for privatising the industry, a BBC Television documentary claims tonight.
The yards, the programme claims, had been deliberately targeted for run-down by Margerate Thatcher and her Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, Norman Lamont. Sir Robert Atkinson, former chairman of British Shipbuilders, alleges in the programme that a permanent under-secretary told him in the early 1980s: “Margerate wants rid of shipbuilding. Remember that”. Mr Lamont, he adds, was “obsessed with getting rid of shipbuilding in any way”.
What is lamentable about all this it could not have been solely about subsidy. There was one week when a 150+ year old shipyard was closed in Sunderland and in the same week the government announced it would step in to help UK horse breeders who were concerned about losing bloodstock to abroad.
Unlike any other nation it seems the UK has been obsessed with shedding industrial skills. Michael Howard MP once said ” what we want is a low wage low skill economy” or words to that effect.
So, as I stated earlier, all of the newest and largest cruise liners are made in old economies: France; Germany; Italy; Norway. And the newest and largest container ship is made in Norway.

September 7, 2011 4:07 pm

Still wondering about the ice in danger and all those ice breakers bashing their way around, breaking it up, and making it easier for wind and currents to float it out of the arctic to melt. Could some of this research be self confirming? Aren’t envirowhackjobs supposed to be upset by anthropogenic interference in the environment?? Why aren’t they demonstrating against all those ice breakers??
With all the talk of UHI in the US and other populated areas, you have to wonder about the UHI in the Arctic and Antarctic inhabited research stations that burn huge amounts of fossil fuels!!
I gotta say I find this all rather humorous also.

diogenes
September 7, 2011 4:15 pm

“Tell me about it. I was in Trafalgar Square in 1984 fighting riot cops in an effort to overthrow the mad bitch”
Tallbloke – there was nothing to stop you and your mates building ships for sale. The fact that British shipyards were inacapable of building ships that the the world wanted to buy was the point of the exercise. So I am very glad that your riot failed…

Bill Hunter
September 7, 2011 4:29 pm

Swede says:
September 7, 2011 at 5:18 am
“My point was just that everyone should expect that the Swedish vessel’s name is in, eh, Swedish. So of course it’s name is Oden, not Odin or Islandic name Óðinn. ”
Normally one does not “translate” ship names. Oden is the name of the ship as one can see in the picture with its name painted on the side of the superstructure.

Gary Hladik
September 7, 2011 4:32 pm

Willis Eschenbach says (September 7, 2011 at 4:05 pm): “Me, I think the British manner, “aluminium”, makes more sense, matches up with “thorium” and “uranium” and the like.”
And “siliconium”, “phosphorusium”, “manganeseium”, “ironium”, “cobaltium”, “copperium”, etc. 🙂
All kidding aside, do the Brits spell element 57 “lanthanum” or “lanthanium”? Carbonium-based lifeforms want to know! 🙂

September 7, 2011 4:47 pm

Actually, there’s no shortage of countries lusting over Canada’s Arctic.
(as a Canadian, what I would like to see is the construction of new icebreakers and SSN’s to enforce our claim all the way to the pole)
There’s China…..
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/harper-stands-firm-on-sovereignty-as-china-eyes-arctic-resources/article2143962/
“….a reporter with the official Chinese news service who is accompanying the Prime Minister on his annual summer tour, asked him to clarify his position.
“It seems like there are some local media reports that the Arctic region belongs to the Arctic countries and it’s not the business of the rest of the world,” the Chinese reporter said. “What is your comment on this opinion and what role do you think the rest of the world can play in the Arctic region affairs?” ”
http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/07/19/chinese-analysts-urge-greater-presence-in-arctic-ocean/
“Zhang says under current international law, the Arctic does not belong to any country, but it has been divided due to ambitious expansion by nearby countries. He says Beijing must speak out in the international community to “stand up for its interests” concerning both resources and navigation in the Arctic.”
There’s South Korea and Asian shipping execs.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/asian-juggernaut-eyes-our-golden-waterways/article2144360/
“I point out to them that the Arctic will be a risky place for ships even after the multiyear ice is gone, because of powerful storms, shallow and poorly charted waters, seasonal darkness and the extreme remoteness of the region. When I tell them about the danger of icing – when ocean spray freezes on the superstructure of a ship, causing it to become top-heavy – their eyes grow large with concern.”

Don K
September 7, 2011 4:54 pm

I should think that if Odin/Oden/whatever cares about the spelling of his name, he is probably ideally positioned to ensure that his name is spelled correctly. Or at least to make sure that it is misspelled only once per mispeller.

phlogiston
September 7, 2011 5:10 pm

Sven-Ove Johansson says
Sept 7, 2011, at 2:44
Oden, or “Odin”, has the following additional names, all with correct Swedish spelling:
Sounds like some warmista trolls on this site, with multiple names like Moderate Republican / Bystander etc..
Oden a troll??! I hope there are no blasphemy laws in Sweden!

tango
September 7, 2011 5:28 pm

they could hire the old pulteney boys with there ice breaker row boat

Wil
September 7, 2011 5:29 pm

highflight56433
Spoken like a true American with no understand of the questions he asks. You do know the Bahamas, Mexico, Caribbean, French Riviera are NOT US territories and is open to any nations at anytime they choose to visit – I hope.
Sorry Willis, Canada does NOT recognize the UN law of sea garbage in the Arctic or anything else coming out of the UN these days. We only claim to the limits of OUR continental shelf sea floor same as we do in Newfoundland/Labrador and in British Columbia two provinces that enforce that sea claim in those areas with the Canadian Navy and Coast Guard. Areas the Russian and the EU nations destroyed from over fishing completely wiping out Canada’s entire east coast fishery. Tens of thousand paid for that disaster in unemployment and shattered lives and twenty-nine years later the fishery is still wiped out. We learned our lesson there and are NOT about to repeat that disaster anytime soon in the Arctic. We claim no more than the Russian claim on their continental shelf as do the Americans off Alaska. Now Willis you can’t very well quote the UN Law of the Sea UN nonsense at your choosing unless and until YOU quote the UN IPCC garbage numbers – you can’t merely pick and choose what UN numbers you like then quote them to back up your claim when both are as faulty. Fact – there is NO Law of the Sea ruling on the Canada Arctic claim nor on the North West Passage. Canada understands why international nations want to access the Arctic for oil and gas – the fishery BUT it is us who stand to lose on ALL oil spills and lost fishery. US who have to clean up spills in a far northern environment not even possible in warm southern climates as demonstrated in the Gulf oil spill.Canada will NOT back down on this one and will fight who ever to the death if necessary – its that important to Canadians. The Russians will do the exact same as us. And yes we know full well the US nuke sub love to play in that area as do the Russians. And it is us who send fighter jets up every month intercepting the Russians probing OUR AIRSPACE.

Chad Jessup
September 7, 2011 6:00 pm

Willis – I thoroughly enjoy your sense humor. Keep it up.

TimC
September 7, 2011 6:17 pm

Just testing a long URL:
The whole article is at here.
Many thanks.

RoHa
September 7, 2011 6:20 pm

@ Smokey
“Swedish is spelled just like it’s pronounced.”
Pretty much, yes. Or maybe vice versa.
It’s certainly better than Danish, which isn’t pronounced at all.

pk
September 7, 2011 6:27 pm

A. Watt:
if we built a non nuc icebraker it would have to have diesel engines fueled by recycled deep fat frying oil. and with the greenies luck it would freeze to jellow in the cold, then they would have to get on the fantail and row.
possibly an argentinan or newzealander tug would salvage them and then own the whole works.
C

TimC
September 7, 2011 6:27 pm

Sorry mods – my last was supposed to go in Test (feel free to snip it)!
Stephen Skinner says “This was in the Independent Wednesday 1 Sept 1993”. So was the September 1994 article following (so you actually have the whole article) whose themes were “Shipbuilding comes second only to agriculture in its addiction to government support” and “Past blunders and complacency have left [the industry] so weak that it will never be able to attract the vast investment needed to rebuild itself”. And in 1985 the industry had already been privatised.
The whole article is here
On a different topic entirely, has anyone else noticed that icebreakers seem to have no gender (“the Ignatyuk … is not set up as a research vessel, just an icebreaker, but *it* can break the path for the tankers”) whereas ships generally are female (“she sailed on …”). Are icebreakers too muscular perhaps – or is it something to do with farting?

clipe
September 7, 2011 6:27 pm

I hope this works.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/kevster1346/oden.jpg
[REPLY: img tags removed. Just cut ‘n’ paste the link. ~dbs, mod.]

clipe
September 7, 2011 6:31 pm
gnomish
September 7, 2011 6:32 pm

whoa!
i thought it was spelled Wednes!!!!
oh, well – it’ll be easier tomorrow- Thorsday.

RoHa
September 7, 2011 6:47 pm

Oh. those evil, evil, Swedes, wanting to use their own icebreakers for what they were originally intended for!
(Though I once took a ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki in late winter, and it cut it’s own way through the ice in the Gulf of Finland.)
And now it is time to again recall that ice in the Baltic and the Gulf of Bothnia can be variable. In a story En konstig blandning Engström tells us that he had long wanted to go hunting seals on the ice, but there had been a period of around thirty years without any ice worthy of the name. (The book was first published in 1929, and thus is proof that Global Warming started in 1899!)
(Also, in the story, Engström uses an older form of the Swedish for “seal” – själ – but spells it “skäl”. They are pronounced in the same way! The modern word is “säl”. Or he is making some weird pun on “skäl” – “reason, motive”.
Aren’t Scandanavian languages fun!)

RoHa
September 7, 2011 6:48 pm

Aaaaaaaargh! It cut ITS onw way …

RoHa
September 7, 2011 6:48 pm

It cut its OWN way ….

RoHa
September 7, 2011 6:49 pm

Now I can’t even write Englsih. That’s what Global Warmgin does to me.
We’re dmooded.

mike g
September 7, 2011 6:52 pm

@Bengt Abelsson
You’re thinking like a corporate entity would think. The government is in charge of antarctic research. No intelligent solutions will be tolerated. Besides, not sailing the Russian ice breaker all the way down yonder and sailing the additional tankers necessary for resupply would result in freeing up money that could go to less settled science, such as the James Webb space telescope, which is on the chopping block. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/indepth/47009

m
September 7, 2011 7:12 pm

That’s where all the missing summer arctic sea ice has been hiding! It’s moved to the Baltic sea winter!

September 7, 2011 7:18 pm

RoHa,
Let me translate that for you…
Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

September 7, 2011 7:42 pm

To both Smokey and Willis I haven’t laughed this hard reading the comments in a long time thank you for the chuckles. As for the chuckle-head Timothy Hanes grow a sense of humor you will need one as the wheels fall off of the little red wagon of AGW.

September 7, 2011 7:47 pm

Jean Meeus says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:24 am
Danish: Odin

GregO
September 7, 2011 8:06 pm

Evil fossil fuels? Heaven forbid who’s bringing in the Jello??!!
http://www.real-science.com/uncategorized/jello-wrestling-bringing-giant-crabs-antarctica

Jenn Oates
September 7, 2011 9:16 pm

I’ve got a lot of chuckles from this thread, too. Thanks for the smiles. 🙂

September 7, 2011 9:35 pm

Doesn’t any one from the Man made Climate Change crowed ever watch the program ‘Deadliest Catch’? over the last fue years there were lots of ships becoming iced in at port and the experienced crab fishers on numerous episodes have said they have never seen ice this bad in the Bering Sea, the ice is also attributed to the loss of their Traps and pots which costs them financially, and they have to wait until the Ice melts to make an attempt to retrieve them which adds to the problem of ghost fishing unfortunately.
Annual Mean Sea Ice Extent 1979-2009 with rising trend in the Bering sea;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M6mjyQXKBD8/TlKJ4Q9dmHI/AAAAAAAABzI/cjjUn4460LA/s1600/Fullscreen%2Bcapture%2B8222011%2B95134%2BAM.jpg
And yes it is funny and ironic that man made global warming research is hampered by severe freezing conditions.

Patrick Davis
September 7, 2011 10:23 pm

Who to believe? But I guess ice would melt in the NH summer.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/dramatic-shrinking-of-greenland-glacier-20110908-1jyym.html
And we have Ban Ki Moon here in Australia right now selling his snake oil, “50, 50, 50” campaign. I cannot find a link to an article however, he was on ABC News 24 and I cought the tail end of the newscast. But I think the message is along the lines of “50% reduction of emissions by 2050”, not sure what the 3rd “50” was, could be population as this was mentioned.

Wil
September 7, 2011 10:58 pm

Willis your common sense is severely lacking – if there is NO Law of the Sea ruling – there is NO law of the sea ruling, period. Not for or against Canada. Likewise there are NO Russian, NO Americans, NO Chinese, NO Norwegians living in the North West Passage – however there are Canadian Inuit living in the NWP long before white man and long before the UN and long before any Law of the Sea was ever on any books in any world known to man. And YES arctic oil and Gas in the NWP will impact Canada NOT Norway, not Russia, NOT China, and NOT America – Canada. I’ve lived in that region and I know the tides and the wind.
Canada cannot possibly recognize a Law of the Sea ruling in the NWP when there is NONE! You can’t get around that fact, period! And BTW, ask Norway will we defend our Arctic, ask Russia will we defend our Arctic – Russian bomber crews will tell you straight Canada will. As will Norway tell you – the same Norway who complained to the UN when we sent 500 northern and Native troops to Hans Island to stare down Norway when they sent navy frigates into our territory to that region. Regards to China – they’re so heavily invested on the oil sands needing Canadian oil who do you think they will support? And as usual America does NOT support our claim – just as we don’t support America’s claim to areas of the North. Tit for tat is the order of the day up in that region. Personally speaking – that is gonna cause a real rift between Canada and the US which can only grow more emotional in the years to come.
And “fight whoever to the death”? Dude, we’re talking about Canadians here.
I just returned from a motorcycle guard of honor for the 157 Canadians killed in action in Afghanistan – and on their wall was 101,000 Canadian poppies representing all those Canadians who lost their lives in 2 world wars up to present. Yes, we are talking Canadians here – we have done our part and then some. Perhaps it would do you well to recognize there is indeed a world outside the US. And in OUR part of that world we call the Arctic OUR land.

September 7, 2011 11:08 pm

Smokey says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:37 am
Willis,
Swedish is spelled just like it’s pronounced.

Hah! No one can pronounce Swedish. Even Swedes get permanently clogged sinuses attempting it.

Peter Miller
September 7, 2011 11:55 pm

Tallbloke, I presume you mean Saint Margaret in the comment below.
“Tell me about it. I was in Trafalgar Square in 1984 fighting riot cops in an effort to overthrow the mad bitch”
She was certainly a ‘mad bitch’ when she was briefly a supporter of the theory of man made global warming, but it didn’t take her long to smarten up and dismiss it as a load of nonsense.
A lot of people still think she was the original inspiration for creating the AGW cult, as a back door way of trying to influence people to reduce western oil consumption.

anorak2
September 8, 2011 12:01 am

Linguistic discussions on WUWT, I like it!
Bowen the troll says:
Actually . . . English is from West German is from Indo-European . . . is from??
1. West GermanIC, not West German. Big difference. Germanic is the family languages such as English, Dutch, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Yiddish etc belong to, German is but one language in it.
2. The ancestor of Indo European is currently unknown. Relations towards other language families in the world are not proven to exist. Even though it is hypothesized that eventually all languages of the world come from a common origin, their actual relations are not subject to research because the assumed split was too far in the past to leave recognizable traces in modern languages.
If anyone is interested in the etymology of “schadenfreude”, it’s literally damage-joy. The cognate of “Schaden” in English is “scathe”, the cognate of “Freude” is “frolic”. So using cognates it could be translated “scathe frolic”. Frolic is a loan from our common cousin Dutch though. An inherited cognate in Old English is “frough”, but I believe that is extinct and has no modern descendants.

September 8, 2011 12:31 am

From the Swedish Maritime Administration website is this bit of trivia. They classify the “Degree of Winter Difficulty” for ice-breaking, providing a rating scale (mild/normal/severe) and a time-series chart of Baltic Sea ice extension (km^2) for the winters of 1900-2010.
Details here … http://www.sjofartsverket.se/en/About-us/Activities/Icebreaking/Degree-of-Winter-Difficulty/

Stephen Skinner
September 8, 2011 1:11 am

TimC says:
September 7, 2011 at 6:27 pm
“…The whole article is here”
Thanks Tim. A very good article.

September 8, 2011 1:22 am

Re: halfacow…September 7, 2011 at 12:30 am:
I guess halfacow is a “cow half empty” not a “cow half full” kind of person.

Ed Zuiderwijk
September 8, 2011 2:16 am

Clearly the once mighty US of A is succombing to the British Disease of thinking that you can rely on “buying in services” from others instead of having the production capacity yourself. If you want to know why the economy is in a rut, look no further. It’s probably what you get when your political class have more money than sense what to do with it.

MikeA
September 8, 2011 2:24 am

Is this news or satire? I feel confused, the letter seems a fake, but the news might have some base in reality. Perhaps a sidebar would help.

Perry
September 8, 2011 2:31 am

Ah, the voiceless dental fricative strikes again. Is it Thor or Tor? In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr)
Thorn or þorn (Þ, þ), is a letter in the Old English, Old Norse, and Icelandic alphabets.
Thorn in the form of a Y survives to this day in pseudo-archaic usages, particularly the stock prefix Ye olde. The definite article spelled with Y for thorn is often jocularly or mistakenly pronounced /jiː/ or mistaken for the archaic nominative case of you, namely ye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_%28letter%29
Odin (pronounced /ˈoʊdɨn/ from Old Norse Óðinn) is a major god in Norse mythology and the ruler of Asgard.[1] Homologous with the Anglo-Saxon “Wōden” and the Old High German “Wotan”, the name is descended from Proto-Germanic “*Wodanaz” or “*Wōđanaz”. “Odin” is generally accepted as the modern English form of the name, although, in some cases, older forms may be used or preferred. In the compound Wednesday, the first member is cognate to the genitive Odin’s. His name is related to ōðr, meaning “fury, excitation,” besides “mind,” or “poetry.” His role, like that of many of the Norse gods, is complex. Odin is a principal member of the Æsir (the major group of the Norse pantheon) and is associated with war, battle, victory and death, but also wisdom, magic, poetry, prophecy, and the hunt. Odin has many sons, the most famous of whom is Thor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin
Disclaimer: Wikipedia is not the be all & end all source with regard to climate concerns, but is pretty good for more esoteric enquiry.

Steve T
September 8, 2011 3:01 am

Alan Watt says:
September 7, 2011 at 1:49 pm
It is indeed ironic that global warming research requires a significant expenditure of fossil fuel. Perhaps we could make a gesture towards reducing greenhouse emissions by mandating that all climate change research projects be entirely powered by zero-carbon technologies. Didn’t I read somewhere that with the right policies 70% of our energy needs could be met by renewables? Surely dedicated researchers trying to save the planet should jump at the chance to prove that we really don’t need fossil fuels, for example using bicycle pedal generators to power their climate model computers …
*********************************************************************************************
Alan, I think you may have missed the point: Surely all the giving up and going without only applies to you, me and the masses. The “elite” in their ivory (green?) towers are surely all exempt from the effects that they want to impose on the rest of us?
Steve

Mr Green Genes
September 8, 2011 3:08 am

Louise says:
September 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm
This is arctic rather than antarctic but still relevant to this discussion;
http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2011/09/piomas-august-2011.html
How does this tie in with ‘we’re heading for global cooling’ which I hear here quite a lot?

From the article:-
“Let me stress that these volume numbers aren’t observed data, but are calculated using the Pan-Arctic Ice Ocean Modeling and Assimilation System (PIOMAS, Zhang and Rothrock, 2003).”
As a model, it can only produce what it’s been programmed to produce; in other words, Garbage In, Garbage Out, so any connection with real life is likely to be tenuous.

Ulrich Elkmann
September 8, 2011 3:37 am

Yes, it’s ‘Oden’.:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oden – “Oden (eller Odin; på fornnordiska Óðinn; på tyska Wotan (R. Wagner Nibelungens ring), Wuotan eller Wodan)” – it’s you Southern Anglo-Saxon types (from below 65°N) who get it wrong… He is now needed closer to home to fight the Frost Giants; you know what that means: Ragnarok is coming on (and maybe Fimbulwinter).
Cooling IS the new warming.

Jack of Aus
September 8, 2011 5:58 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
September 7, 2011 at 10:14 am
Smokey says:
September 7, 2011 at 9:37 am
Willis,
Swedish is spelled just like it’s pronounced.
True, Smokey. American English, on the other hand, is very easy to follow because it is mis-pronounced almost exactly like it is mis-spelled …
w.
Now Willis, “American English”, ah surely that’s just American.
My wife is Irish, and these folk really know how to speak and write English.
I’m Australian so I don’t count, (apparently).
Chrs JJ Always enjoy and appreciate your posts, thanks.

Nuke Nemesis
September 8, 2011 6:19 am

Bowen the Troll says:
September 7, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Nuke Nemesis says:
September 7, 2011 at 12:52 pm “In the future, humans will have a sense of humor genetically engineered out of them.”
In the past, Germans had the sense of humor socially engineered out of them . . . . as I learned in the history of the Reich’s . . . because laughing or even smiling was considered a sign of disrespect and insubordination . . . That’s why there only a very few and far between such as things as a “german” joke . . . not /sarc

There’s no joking about that, our how even today progressives are infatuated with totalitarian dictatorships, just as they once admired Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin.

TimC
September 8, 2011 6:26 am

Ed Zuiderwijk said: “Clearly the once mighty US of A is succombing [sic] to the British Disease of thinking that you can rely on “buying in services” from others”.
It’s more fundamental than that. If your unit costs (principally of labour, also of capital) are greater than those in other economies you have just two options: (a) taxpayer subsidies for the industry (by direct subsidy if such is permitted for example under EU treaties, or by nationalisation) or (b) watch the unprofitable industry decline and eventually mostly go bust – when your only recourse is to buy in the general services from elsewhere.
That’s what happened to the British shipbuilding industry – we could no longer build a full range of ships profitably in competition with other countries, and British taxpayers voted against subsidising the industry – we thankfully saw that having the public sector build cruise ships for sale on the world market made no sense at all.

Alan D McIntire
September 8, 2011 6:27 am

In reply to Ulrich- If I remember my Norse mythology correctly, Fimbul winter- a winter 3 years long, comes first- then Ragnarok.

Beth Cooper
September 8, 2011 8:55 am

I’ll take mine with ice. ‘A toast to schanenfreude!’
And throw another snag on the barbie.

Beth Cooper
September 8, 2011 8:59 am

My bad,we Ozies can’t spell,”Schadenfreude.”

G. Karst
September 8, 2011 9:03 am

No Nation is better at efficiently killing their enemies, than Canada. Just ask the Germans, Koreans, Boer, Iraq, Afghanistani, Cypriot, Japanese and even Americans (1812). They are fierce, peace loving warriors, who open holes in battlefield fronts, whenever they appear. Do not mistake their peacekeeping tendencies for military weakness. When aroused, they are not a sleeping bear but a terrible dragon. I am so happy, most nations regard them as friend, including the good ol US of A. Let’s not harass them with their only territorial claim on this planet. GK

DirkH
September 8, 2011 9:37 am

Bowen the Troll says:
September 7, 2011 at 2:08 pm
“In the past, Germans had the sense of humor socially engineered out of them . . . . as I learned in the history of the Reich’s . . . because laughing or even smiling was considered a sign of disrespect and insubordination . . .”
Hitler’s limo runs over a pig, killing it. Hitler’s chauffeur goes to the farmer’s house to explain. He comes back a long time later, heavily drunk and laden with bacon and sausages. Hitler quips: “What happened?” The chauffeur answers: “I said: Heil Hitler, the pig is dead. They started celebrating and invited me.”

mkelly
September 8, 2011 9:46 am

Loved the Swedish cook on the Moppets. Bjorken da stewing.

gnomish
September 8, 2011 10:12 am

Heil Humor!

Bowen the Troll
September 8, 2011 10:46 am

mkelly: Swedish Chef – Meatballs

DirkH says:
September 8, 2011 at 9:37 am Dirk! What so dam funny about that?!!! /sarc???!!???

TimC
September 8, 2011 11:09 am

Willis says “You forget, as the world seems to have forgotten, choice (c): put tariffs on the imports.”
Willis : thanks, but I hadn’t forgotten that, in chronological order, (a) it is generally accepted that the 1930 Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act (as here) had a negative economic effect during the great depression; (b) during the decline of the British shipbuilding industry Britain also had many negotiated tariff treaties (principally Commonwealth preference, succeeded by the EU treaties); (c) what’s already done of course can’t now be undone and, most importantly, (d) China is now the world’s no 2 economy and (as a command economy with an almost unlimited potential labour supply) anyone who takes on the PRC in a tariff war will likely come off worst!
I will indeed look forward to debating this in another thread, another time.

Steve C
September 8, 2011 12:21 pm

highflight56433 says:(September 7, 2011 at 11:09 am)
“Legal possession often boils down to the guy with the biggest hammer … ?”
So, all this belongs to Thor, then, with or without his H. 🙂
All-father Wotan must have been distracted when he gave the lad that hammer, possibly wondering why, even after using all those names, the mightiest of Norse gods still only rates 3989 in the charts.
And I see that so far no-one’s mentioned the Odinist Fellowship, so I will.

Louise
September 8, 2011 12:26 pm

This is based on observation, not modelling:
http://rankexploits.com/musings/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/AreaRecordSet.png
Can anyone explain to me how we can get a new record minimum ice area in the Arctic in this cooling world?

tty
September 8, 2011 12:56 pm

Alan the Brit says:
“No scientific evidence of what caused these little chaps to be where they are, & no evidence that they haven’t always been there, or that it is not a natural occurrence! Just what “experts” didn’t expect to see, & some guess work, rather like those “experts” who claimed tigers couldn’t live above a certain altitude in Bhutan until they filmed them where they shouldn’t be!”
Actually lithodid crabs have long been known to occur in antarctic waters:
http://epic.awi.de/Publications/BerPolarforsch2004483.pdf

tty
September 8, 2011 1:04 pm

Perry says:
“Ah, the voiceless dental fricative strikes again. Is it Thor or Tor? In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr)”
Both the voiced and the voiceless ddental fricatives are long extinct in both Swedish, Danish and Norwegian. It only survives in Icelandic. So it’s Tor and pronounced that way even if sometimes spelled Thor.

gnomish
September 8, 2011 1:59 pm

oh, boy…
stifled trade was the hallmark of guild socialism – which stagnated the western world for a thousand years.
revisionist history that credits statist control of trade with prosperity is patently false.
classical economists express the opposite view – that taxation of any kind is not productive nor conducive to productivity, but damaging to it.
let it be known that monetarism is fairly recent and a creature of the state for the purpose of justifying the state.
don’t hesitate to hesitate with gratuitous expertise on things you really aren’t expert at.
avoid ‘guru syndrome’ and you’ll have a happier life with much less pretense.
No, China is not productive because of import tariffs and protectionism. that’s crazy.

TimC
September 8, 2011 2:16 pm

Willis: thanks again but I think we are getting rather wide of the mark here. If you analyse this a little more (at least in outline), I hope we agree that tariffs are (principally) intended to protect more costly domestic production against less expensive imports available on world markets, but at cost of domestic consumers paying more than world market prices.
What has this actually got to do with the (failing) British shipbuilding industry, where we started off this line of conversation? If it costs the domestic British industry, say, £80m to produce a ship whereas the same ship only costs £60m from a foreign shipyard (at lower labour costs) – and, crucially, the ship isn’t intended for the (now rather pitiful) British domestic market but is built to order for sale for profit on the world market to maintain a viable shipbuilding industry – how do tariffs help at all? As before, they just mean that the British shipyard pays over world market price for components or services it has to source abroad – so the finished ship is yet more costly to the British shipyard (unless HMG refunds the excise duty to the shipyard of course but this is then just artificially churning the duty – unless it is perhaps treated in the same way as VAT on re-exported items).
Isn’t the most advantageous position for domestic suppliers, selling for profit on the world market, a nil UK tariff – so choice (c) (import tariffs levied in the country of manufacture) is actually nugatory. The concern for domestic manufacturers will be more that the buyer suffers a tariff in its own country – but that is not something that HMG has direct control over, short of entering into a tariff war (when everyone suffers).
So it’s really not about free trade versus tariffs, at all.

gnomish
September 8, 2011 2:20 pm

http://www.cbe.uidaho.edu/bus100/modules/economics/economics01_famous.htm
quick overview of economists in the last couple centuries.
do note which among them have been validated by experience.

AlexS
September 8, 2011 3:00 pm

“Willis Eschenbach says:
September 8, 2011 at 12:07 pm”
What a bizarre opinion. The so called Third World is getting out of poverty due to free trade.

RoHa
September 8, 2011 4:19 pm

@tty
“Both the voiced and the voiceless ddental fricatives are long extinct in both Swedish, Danish and Norwegian. It only survives in Icelandic.”
Faroese retains the letter ð but does terrible things with it. It isn’t pronounced like Icelandic.

RoHa
September 8, 2011 4:20 pm

“No one can pronounce Swedish. Even Swedes get permanently clogged sinuses attempting it.”
Odd that you should say that. The Swedes say that Danish is a thoat disease, not a language.

Nuke Nemesis
September 9, 2011 7:37 am

gnomish says:
September 8, 2011 at 2:20 pm
http://www.cbe.uidaho.edu/bus100/modules/economics/economics01_famous.htm
quick overview of economists in the last couple centuries.
do note which among them have been validated by experience.

Is it just a coincidence that the one’s with the worst track record are the ones that favor central planning?

Nuke Nemesis
September 9, 2011 7:42 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
September 8, 2011 at 12:07 pm

And yet it was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act which turned the recession of 1929 into the world-wide Great Depression. And the Keynesian New Deal not only did not solve the problem but continued to make it worse.
The free market and free trade are both ideals and like most ideals, are rarely realized. They are among the worst economic models, except for all the others, of course.

September 9, 2011 3:29 pm

“Political Correctness is a doctrine… which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

Daryl M
September 11, 2011 2:45 am

Meanwhile, the only two USCG icebreakers designed for antarctic operations have been allowed to languish (I intentionally did not count the Healy). The USCGC Polar Star has been in caretaker status since 2006 and her sistership, the Polar Sea will be decommissioned this year. Why? Because the NSF won’t fund them.

%d bloggers like this: