Guest post by Joe Bastardi, WeatherBell
With the coming Gorathon to save the planet around the corner ( Sept 14) , my stance on the AGW issue has been drawing more ire from those seeking to silence people like me that question their issue and plans. In response, I want the objective reader to hear more about my arguments made in a a brief interview on FOX News as to why I conclude CO2 is not causing changes of climate and the recent flurry of extremes of our planet. I brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics and LeChateliers principle.
The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred in many forms but can not be created or destroyed.
For the sake of argument, let’s assume those that believe CO2 is adding energy to the system are correct. Okay, how much? We have a gas that is .04% of the atmosphere that increases 1.5 ppm yearly and humans contribute 3-5% of that total yearly, which means the increase by humans is 1 part per 20 million. In a debate, someone argued just because it is small doesn’t mean it is not important. After all even a drop with 0.042 gm of arsenic could kill an adult. Yes but put the same drop in the ocean or a reservoir and no one dies or gets ill.
Then there is the energy budget. The amount of heat energy in the atmosphere is dwarfed by the energy in y the oceans. Trying to measure the changes from a trace gas in the atmosphere, if it were shown to definitively play a role in change (and it never has), is a daunting task.
NASA satellites suggest that the heat the models say is trapped, is really escaping to space, that the ‘sensitivity’ of the atmosphere to CO2 is low and the model assumed positive feedbacks of water vapor and clouds are really negative. Even IPCC Lead Author Kevin Trenberth said “Climatologists are nowhere near knowing where the energy goes or what the effect of clouds is…the fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment, and it is a travesty that we can’t.”
We are told that the warming in the period of warming from 1800 was evidence of man-made global warming. They especially point to the warming from 1977 to 1998 which was shown by all measures and the fact that CO2 rose during those two decades. And we hear that this warming has to be man-made with statements like “what else could it be?”
However, correlation does not mean causation. Indeed inconveniently despite efforts to minimize or ignore it, the earth cooled from the 1940s to the late 1970s and warming ceased after 1998, even as CO2 rose at a steady pace. Some have been forced to admit some natural factors may play a role in this periodic cooling. If that is the case, why could these same natural factors play a key role in the warming periods too.
Ah, but here is where the 1st law works just fine. After a prolonged period of LACK OF SUNSPOT ACTIVITY, the world was quite cold around 1800. The ramping up of solar activity after 1800 to the grand maximum in the late twentieth century could be argued as the ultimate cause of any warming through the introduction of extra energy into the oceans, land and then the atmosphere.
The model projections that the warming would be accelerating due to CO2 build up are failing since the earth’s temps have leveled off the past 15 years while CO2 has continued to rise.
Then there is a little matter of real world observation of how work done affects the system it is being done on. When one pushes an empty cart and then stops pushing, the cart keeps moving until the work done on it is dissipated. How is it, that the earth’s temperature has leveled off, if CO2, the alleged warming driver continues to rise?
The answer is obvious. They have it backwards. It is the earth’s temperature (largely the ocean) which is driving the CO2 release into the atmosphere. That is what the ice cores tell us and recently that Salby showed using isotopes in an important peer review paper. These use real world observations not tinker toy models nor an 186 year old theory that has never been validated.
Finally, as to the matter of LeChateliers principle. The earth is always in a state of imbalance and weather is the way the imbalances are corrected in the atmosphere. Extreme weather occurs when factors that increase imbalances are occurring. The extremes represent an attempt to return to a state of equilibrium.
The recent flurry of severe weather – for instance, record cold and snow, floods, tornadoes,, is much more likely to be a sign of cooling rather than warming. The observational data shows the earth’s mid levels have cooled dramatically and ocean heat content and atmospheric temperatures have been stable or declined. Cooling atmospheres are more unstable and produce greater contrasts and these contrasts drive storms, storms drive severe weather. A warmer earth produces a climate optimum with less extremes as we enjoyed in the late 20th century and other time in history when the great civilizations flourished.
Time will provide the answer. Over the next few decades, with the solar cycles and now the oceanic cycles changing towards states that favor cooling, there should be a drop in global temperatures as measured by objective satellite measurement, at least back to the levels they were in the 1970s, when we first started measuring them via an objective source. If temperatures warm despite these natural cycles, you carry the day. We won’t have to wait the full 20-30 year period. I believe we will have our answer before this decade is done.
UPDATE: I’m told that a follow up post – more technically oriented will follow sometime next week. Readers please note that the opinion expressed here is that of Mr. Bastardi, at his request. While you may or may not agree with it, discuss it without resorting to personal attacks as we so often see from the Romm’s and Tamino’s of the nether climate world. Also, about 3 hours after the original post, I added 3 graphics from Joe which should have been in the original, apologies. – Anthony




To the American audience who are all experiencing a huge heatwave this summer:
we over the pond in Britain are not. We had an incredibly early, mild spring which accelerated many of our crops, particularly our fruit and berries to almost record early harvest dates.
But our summer has been relatively cool and reasonably wet. Not cold, cold, but we’ve only had a few days over 75 degrees.
I can’t speak for the whole world but certainly in NW Europe we have no signs of a heatwave.
@ur momisugly R.Gates
“But in all these 800,000 years or more, during interglacials, many of which were warmer than our current interglacial,………………………….It is not that this interglacial is warmer than the others”
R.Gates, I do enjoy your posts, but it seems to be illogical to find a direct correlation between Co2 and temperature, when you say that Co2 level in inter-glacials were never as high as they are now, but the temperature was warmer.
I know you are trying to say that warm interglacials did not drive an in crease in Co2 because while they were warmer, the Co2 level was lower, but conversely , if they were warmer, but the Co2 level was lower than now, does that not impact on the Co2 / Temperature correlation?
Or am I reading this wrongly?
Fox news reports, particularly on climate, are where I go for substance. The Fox team possesses an indepth understanding of the facts, no doubt engendered by their tireless pursuit of the truth. I say strip five Climate scientists of their PHD’s and award them to Joe Bastardi.
“Thats my agenda, get it right. And if I am right, then people will remember who fought for what was right, and who simply just swam with the tide because it seemed convenient and everyone else was doing it, and making a buck off it at that.”
If anyone is swimming with the tide, its you Joe. You are making big bucks pontificating on a subject you obviously know nothing about.
Robert in Calgary says (August 12, 2011 at 9:03 pm): “Where’s Matt and his equation? Can’t find any envelopes on a Friday night…..?”
Back in July Steve Mosher referenced this “back-of-the-envelope” discussion:
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/a-simple-analysis-of-equilibrium-climate-sensitivity/
It also discusses some of the simplifications and assumptions that go into the calculation, e.g. no feedbacks, positive or negative. The devil is in the (omitted) details, of course.
A simple observation. My location has been overcast for several days. The night time temperatures have been a steady 13-14C. Last time we had a clear night temperature dropped to 9C even though day temperature had hit 21C.
Many tons of water overhead in fine droplets (clouds) can absorb and emitt over the range 4 to 100 microns and can only arrive at thermal equilibrium with surface temperature. CO2 can only see the 15 micron band at night. CO2 alone under clear skies at night will not keep anything warm. The miniscule “backradiation” from CO2 at about 0.7% of total surface radiation simply means surface radiation efficiency has dropped to 99.3%. Any drop in radiation rate is not a warming effect. To make something warmer you must feed in extra heat.
Friends:
Chris Colose wrote at August 12, 2011 at 5:35 pm saying:
“…
All of Bastardi’s talking points here can be traced back a long time,
…
I challenged him to an open debate on the matter.
…
I would like to how well he can perform when required to scientifically address criticisms of his claims.”
OH YES! Please, please please let it happen.
It is way past time that the egregious Colose got his bottom smacked in public and this could be it.
Richard
>>Rhys Jaggar says: August 12, 2011 at 11:56 pm
>>To the American audience who are all experiencing a huge heatwave this summer:
>>We over the pond in Britain are not.
Ditto in N Germany. It has been week after week of low cloud, drizzle, aggressive summer anti-cyclones and cold winds of the N Sea.
Its been dreadful.
.
“R. Gates says:
August 12, 2011 at 8:50 pm
The answer is obvious. They have it backwards. It is the earth’s temperature (largely the ocean) which is driving the CO2 release into the atmosphere. That is what the ice cores tell us and recently that Salby showed using isotopes in an important peer review paper.
_____
C’mon Joe, you can’t honestly believe this, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Are you suggesting that the last several century rise in CO2 is not due to the result of human burning of fossil fuels? I mean, it’s one thing to suggest that the Earth’s global temperature may not be as sensitive to the rise in CO2 as some would suggest, and I might even agree with that, but it is another thing entirely to suggest that human activity has not been the root cause of the rise in CO2 from 280 ppm to our current 390+ ppm.”
I doubt if any sane person would question the position that mankind have released (and are releasing) CO2 into the atmosphere to add to that released by oceans and other natural sources. The issue R Gates does not address (and others too) is where do you stand on the central issue raised by Mr Bastardi? Do you believe temperatures will go up, stand still or reduce beteween today and year 2020? And if they stand still or go down, do you agree that the AGW theory (and CAGW alarmism) has been falsified? I would like to hear a direct answer from R Gates and others questioning Mr Bastardi’s reasoning. That is the key question.
At least R Gates is now prepared to admit that CAGW represents alarmism and any impact of CO2 may be more in line with what Dr Spencer and Professor Lindzen propose.
R. Gates:
At August 12, 2011 at 8:50 pm you sayto Joes Bastardi;
“Are you suggesting that the last several century rise in CO2 is not due to the result of human burning of fossil fuels? I mean, it’s one thing to suggest that the Earth’s global temperature may not be as sensitive to the rise in CO2 as some would suggest, and I might even agree with that, but it is another thing entirely to suggest that human activity has not been the root cause of the rise in CO2 from 280 ppm to our current 390+ ppm.”
This, of course, ignores the fact that the bulk of evidence indicates that “human activity has NOT been the root cause of the rise in CO2 from 280 ppm to our current 390+ ppm.”
Take your fingers out of your ears, stop shouting, “Lah, lah. lah” and read the recent thread on WUWT at
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/05/the-emily-litella-moment-for-climate-science-and-co2/
The discussion still continues on that thread, and it is probably above your reading comprehension capability. However, those on that thread who argue that “human activity” is known to have cause the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 have been soundly trounced.
Richard
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory they are the same, but in practice they are different. 🙂
Joe B deals with practice. Matt/AlGore/Warmistas deal with theory. Their problem is that Joe B gets paid big bucks to ACCURATELY forecast weather. I go with Joe.
Hello Joe!
We have an interesting month ahead when your arctic sea ice extent minimum prediction will be tested for 2011. As far as I recall, it was a minimum of 5,5million on the jaxa data?
Seems to me agw skeptics will have to admit they don’t have or understand all the facts if you are wrong on this issue ;). Of course the current value being ~5,84million, you are on track for a resounding success of logic against warmista modelistas.
If Co2 is rising because of increasing temperatures, and if temperatures are leveling off, why is CO2 still rising?
It seems that the arguments by Bastardi and Salby are not coherent. One cannot accept both.
The lack of knowledge of fundamental physics seems to be all pervading among the clmimo gang. Can I suggest that Colose, Matt, jeremy etc buy themselves a really good text book on physics, starting with e=mc² and ending with the latest quantum models. When done, please come back and explain how co² retains radiative energy.
Clue: all excited atoms try to return to the ground state immediately. Immediately means µsecs.
Stephen Richards BSc MSc solid state physics
Doug Proctor says:
August 12, 2011 at 6:01 pm
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Doug well said. I do not know why these ‘scientists’ seem to lack a grasp on accuracy and precision and the significance of that simple point.
As regards the missing knife, it is worse than we thought!!! Not only do we not know whether the knife has gone missing, we not know whether there has been a murder still less (if there was one) how it was committed, ie., whether with a knofe or with some other weapon.
Stephen Wilde says:
August 12, 2011 at 10:22 pm
I’m saddened that Joe brought up those two scientific laws/principles.
They were not necessary and are irrelevant to the issue.
I happen to agree with Stephen. Joe B does not need to use these ,theories in order to prove his point. He has been forecasting seasons within reasonable accuracy for many years and doing so way beyond the abilities of either UKMet or NASA.
The co² gangs rely on the same old rubbish to promote their religion and, sadly for them, it’s just going nowhere. They have failed in evry prediction since 1988. Oh, except when they fiddle the data.
Ralph says:
August 12, 2011 at 11:54 pm
The so called blanket effect of cloud prevents convection and reduces evaporations. It does nothing to impede IR EXCEPT that H²O is a great absorper of IR in the same bands as co² and there is about 1000 times more H²O than CO². 5% to 0.04%.
John H, you might want to do your homework before posting. Joe Bastardi runs a successful weather predicting business and earns his money from that, by being correct in his predictions. His clients come back to him and pay him for his services because he is correct.
The pro-AGW scientific crowd are the ones who are pontificating about a subject they have shown to know nothing about and have been proven wrong in everything they predicted. Empirical measured evidence shows that their prediction success rate on anything related to climate is non-existent. And yet they are ones skimming millions of taxpayer funds for their ” research ” and billions are being spent by Governments worldwide based on their failed and rotten predictions.
Theo Goodwin says: August 12, 2011 at 6:41 pm: “By the way, ‘skeptical’ is the Brit spelling while ‘sceptical’ is the American spelling.”
Wrong way round, old chap.
Joe Bastardi says:
August 12, 2011 at 6:48 pm
…
Co2 is rising. If the earths temperature cools the next 20 to 30 years, then its not co2.
———————–
Joe makes a prediction here, and it is one that most “warmists” would agree with. My question is, if the earth’s temperature warms over that same period, will Joe and other skeptics admit they might be wrong?
1.Matt, in general I agree with You. It seams You have same physics background.
2. Some simple screed:
Greanhouse gase absorbs Long wawe radiation end emits it to random directions. Part (about 1/2) of this radiation go back to earth.
The earth could be assumed as black body and its released energy intensity P ~T^4
What will happen if earth Temperature will change 1 degree celsius ?
One degree of temperature changes will cause 100*[(T+1) /T]^4 percents of emited energy intensity . Assuming that average earth temperature T=(273+15) = 288 K we get that 100*(289/288)^4=1.4%.of earth emitted energy returns back.
In other words, if 1.4% of earth emited energy are returnded/reflected back then to reach termodynamic equilibrium earth shout warm 1 degree celsius.
The question is: How mach greenhouse gas is necessary to reflect 1.4% of earth emitted Long wave radiation.
There are little to to do with greenhouse gas CONCENTRATION. The key factor is amount of greenhause gase per earth surface unit (assuming that atmosphere is thin) .
Significant is which part of earth emitted radiation spectrum greenhause gase are able to absorb and how mach energy is in this part of spectrum. So the impact of CO2 to earth T are limited to this energy portion. I am to lazy and busy for quantitave calculations of spectrums and ability of CO2 to absorb/reemit energy.
In my opinium, the greenhause gase effects are real. BUT the impact of CO2 to earth climate could be overestimated, due to lots of complex feedbacks (cloudines, albedo, global circulations (athospheric and ocean) etc).
Till now I have not seen scientificaly argumented research which shows that CO2 are cause of some worming. I have seen lots of speculations but not more. My be some one has better luck. If yes pleese give me some links.
Very possible there are mach more powerful earth climate drivers then CO2 and effect of CO2 could be neglected.
People often characterize carbon dioxide as a blanket and use the analogy of the warming produced by a blanket as an analogy for the CO2 greenhouse effect. But because CO2 is largely transparent except over a limited band of wavelengths, I propose the scarf as a better analogy. With nothing else on, people might feel cold no matter how many scarves they tried to wrap around their necks.
Matt says:
August 12, 2011 at 5:28 pm
The equivalent of what you are saying is that I can insulate my home with a 1″ square ceiling tile or does coarbon dioxide have some majic effect?
What Matt said was:
The link Steve Mosher pointed to does not deal with what Matt was talking about. What we’re waiting for is a simple calculation that relates the concentration of CO2 to a change in temperature.