Riding a Pseudocycle

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Loehle and Scafetta recently posted a piece on decomposing the HadCRUT3 temperature record into a couple of component cycles plus a trend. I disagreed with their analysis on a variety of grounds. In the process, I was reminded of work I had done a few years ago using what is called “Periodicity Analysis” (PDF).

A couple of centuries ago, a gentleman named Fourier showed that any signal could be uniquely decomposed into a number of sine waves with different periods. Fourier analysis has been a mainstay analytical tool since that time. It allows us to detect any underlying regular sinusoidal cycles in a chaotic signal.

Figure 1. Joseph Fourier, looking like the world’s happiest mathematician

While Fourier analysis is very useful, it has a few shortcomings. First, it can only extract sinusoidal signals. Second, although it has good resolution as short timescales, it has poor resolution at the longer timescales. For many kinds of cyclical analysis, I prefer periodicity analysis.

So how does periodicity analysis work? The citation above gives a very technical description of the process, and it’s where I learned how to do periodicity analysis. Let me attempt to give a simpler description, although I recommend the citation for mathematicians.

Periodicity analysis breaks down a signal into cycles, but not sinusoidal cycles. It does so by directly averaging the data itself, so that it shows the actual cycles rather than theoretical cycles.

For example, suppose that we want to find the actual cycle of length two in a given dataset. We can do it by numbering the data points in order, and then dividing them into odd- and even-numbered data points. If we average all of the odd data points, and we average all of the even data, it will give us the average cycle of length two in the data. Here is what we get when we apply that procedure to the HadCRUT3 dataset:

Figure 2. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 2. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.

As you might imagine for a cycle of length 2, it is a simple zigzag. The amplitude is quite small, only plus/minus a hundredth of a degree. So we can conclude that there is only a tiny cycle of length two in the HadCRUT3.

Next, here is the same analysis, but with a cycle length of four. To do the analysis, we number the dataset in order with a cycle of four, i.e. “1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 …”

Then we average all the “ones” together, and all of the twos and the threes and the fours. When we plot these out, we see the following pattern:

Figure 3. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 4. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.

As I mentioned above, we are not reducing the dataset to sinusoidal (sine wave shaped) cycles. Instead, we are determining the actual cycles in the dataset. This becomes more evident when we look at say the twenty year cycle:

Figure 4. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 dataset, with a cycle length of 20. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.

Note that the actual 20 year cycle is not sinusoidal. Instead, it rises quite sharply, and then decays slowly.

Now, as you can see from the three examples above, the amplitudes of the various length cycles are quite different. If we set the mean (average) of the original data to zero, we can measure the power in the cyclical underlying signals as the sum of the absolute values of the signal data. It is useful to compare this power value to the total power in the original signal. If we do this at all possible frequencies, we get a graph of the strength of each of the underlying cycles.

For example, suppose we are looking at a simple sine wave with a period of 24 years. Figure 5 shows the sine wave, along with periodicity analysis in blue showing the power in each of the various length cycles:

Figure 5. A sine wave, along with the periodicity analysis of all cycles up to half the length of the dataset.

Looking at Figure 5, we can see one clear difference between Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis — the periodicity analysis shows peaks at 24, 48, and 72 years, while a Fourier analysis of the same data would only show the 24-year cycle. Of course, the apparent 48 and 72 year peaks are merely a result of the 24 year cycle. Note also that the shortest length peak (24 years) is sharper than the longest length (72-year) peak. This is because there are fewer data points to measure and average when we are dealing with longer time spans, so the sharp peaks tend to broaden with increasing cycle length.

To move to a more interesting example relevant to the Loehle/Scafetta paper, consider the barycentric cycle of the sun. The sun rotates around the center of mass of the solar system. As it rotates, it speeds up and slows down because of the varying pull of the planets. What are the underlying cycles?

We can use periodicity analysis to find the cycles that have the most effect on the barycentric velocity. Figure 6 shows the process, step by step:

Figure 6. Periodicity analysis of the annual barycentric velocity data. 

The top row shows the barycentric data on the left, along with the amount of power in cycles of various lengths on the right in blue. The periodicity diagram at the top right shows that the overwhelming majority of the power in the barycentric data comes from a ~20 year cycle. It also demonstrates what we saw above, the spreading of the peaks of the signal at longer time periods because of the decreasing amount of data.

The second row left panel shows the signal that is left once we subtract out the 20-year cycle from the barycentric data. The periodicity diagram on the second row right shows that after we remove the 20-year cycle, the maximum amount of power is in the 83 year cycle. So as before, we remove that 83-year cycle.

Once that is done, the third row right panel shows that there is a clear 19-year cycle (visible as peaks at 19, 38, 57, and 76 years. This cycle may be a result of the fact that the “20-year cycle” is actually slightly less than 20 years). When that 19-year cycle is removed, there is a 13-year cycle visible at 13, 26, 39 years etc. And once that 13-year cycle is removed … well, there’s not much left at all.

The bottom left panel shows the original barycentric data in black, and the reconstruction made by adding just these four cycles of different lengths is shown in blue. As you can see, these four cycles are sufficient to reconstruct the barycentric data quite closely. This shows that we’ve done a valid deconstruction of the original data.

Now, what does all of this have to do with the Loehle/Scafetta paper? Well, two things. First, in the discussion on that thread I had said that I thought that the 60 year cycle that Loehle/Scafetta said was in the barycentric data was very weak. As the analysis above shows, the barycentric data does not have any kind of strong 60-year underlying cycle. Loehle/Scafetta claimed that there were ~ 20-year and ~ 60-year cycles in both the solar barycentric data and the surface temperature data. I find no such 60-year cycle in the barycentric data.

However, that’s not what I set out to investigate. I started all of this because I thought that the analysis of random red-noise datasets might show spurious cycles. So I made up some random red-noise datasets the same length as the HadCRUT3 annual temperature records (158 years), and I checked to see if they contained what look like cycles.

A “red-noise” dataset is one which is “auto-correlated”. In a temperature dataset, auto-correlated means that todays temperature depends in part on yesterday’s temperature. One kind of red-noise data is created by what are called “ARMA” processes. “AR” stands for “auto-regressive”, and “MA” stands for “moving average”. This kind of random noise is very similar observational datasets such as the HadCRUT3 dataset.

So, I made up a couple dozen random ARMA “pseudo-temperature” datasets using the AR and MA values calculated from the HadCRUT3 dataset, and I ran a periodicity analysis on each of the pseudo-temperature datasets to see what kinds of cycles they contained. Figure 6 shows eight of the two dozen random pseudo-temperature datasets in black, along with the corresponding periodicity analysis of the power in various cycles in blue to the right of the graph of the dataset:

Figure 6. Pseudo-temperature datasets (black lines) and their associated periodicity (blue circles). All pseudo-temperature datasets have been detrended.

Note that all of these pseudo-temperature datasets have some kind of apparent underlying cycles, as shown by the peaks in the periodicity analyses in blue on the right. But because they are purely random data, these are only pseudo-cycles, not real underlying cycles. Despite being clearly visible in the data and in the periodicity analyses, the cycles are an artifact of the auto-correlation of the datasets.

So for example random set 1 shows a strong cycle of about 42 years. Random set 6 shows two strong cycles, of about 38 and 65 years. Random set 17 shows a strong ~ 45-year cycle, and a weaker cycle around 20 years or so. We see this same pattern in all eight of the pseudo-temperature datasets, with random set 20 having cycles at 22 and 44 years, and random set 21 having a 60-year cycle and weak smaller cycles.

That is the main problem with the Loehle/Scafetta paper. While they do in fact find cycles in the HadCRUT3 data, the cycles are neither stronger nor more apparent than the cycles in the random datasets above. In other words, there is no indication at all that the HadCRUT3 dataset has any kind of significant multi-decadal cycles.

How do I know that?

Well, one of the datasets shown in Figure 6 above is actually not a random dataset. It is the HadCRUT3 surface temperature dataset itself … and it is indistinguishable from the truly random datasets in terms of its underlying cycles. All of them have visible cycles, it’s true, in some cases strong cycles … but they don’t mean anything.

w.

APPENDIX:

I did the work in the R computer language. Here’s the code, giving the “periods” function which does the periodicity function calculations. I’m not that fluent in R, it’s about the eighth computer language I’ve learned, so it might be kinda klutzy.

#FUNCTIONS

PI=4*atan(1) # value of pi

dsin=function(x) sin(PI*x/180) # sine function for degrees

regb =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[1]]} #gives the intercept of the trend line

regm =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[2]]} #gives the slope of the trend line

detrend = function(x){ #detrends a line

x-(regm(x)*c(1:length(x))+regb(x))

}

meanbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle means

rep(tapply(x,modline,mean),length.out=length(x))

}

countbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle number of datapoints N

rep(tapply(x,modline,length),length.out=length(x))

}

sdbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle standard deviations

rep(tapply(x,modline,sd),length.out=length(x))

}

normmatrix=function(x) sum(abs(x)) #returns the norm of the dataset, which is proportional to the power in the signal

# Function “periods” (below) is the main function that calculates the percentage of power in each of the cycles. It takes as input the data being analyzed (inputx). It displays the strength of each cycle. It returns a list of the power of the cycles (vals), along with the means (means), numner of datapoints N (count), and standard deviations (sds).

# There’s probably an easier way to do this, I’ve used a brute force method. It’s slow on big datasets

periods=function(inputx,detrendit=TRUE,doplot=TRUE,val_lim=1/2) {

x=inputx

if (detrendit==TRUE) x=detrend(as.vector(inputx))

xlen=length(x)

modmatrix=matrix(NA, xlen,xlen)

modmatrix=matrix(mod((col(modmatrix)-1),row(modmatrix)),xlen,xlen)

countmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,countbyrow,x))

meanmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,meanbyrow,x))

sdmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,sdbyrow,x))

xpower=normmatrix(x)

powerlist=apply(meanmatrix,1,normmatrix)/xpower

plotlist=powerlist[1:(length(powerlist)*val_lim)]

if (doplot) plot(plotlist,ylim=c(0,1),ylab=”% of total power”,xlab=”Cycle Length (yrs)”,col=”blue”)

invisible(list(vals=powerlist,means=meanmatrix,count=countmatrix,sds=sdmatrix))

}

# /////////////////////////// END OF FUNCTIONS

# TEST

# each row in the values returned represents a different period length.

myreturn=periods(c(1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,2,4,1,2,1,8,6,5))

myreturn$vals

myreturn$means

myreturn$sds

myreturn$count

#ARIMA pseudotemps

# note that they are standardized to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of 0.2546, which is the standard deviation of the HadCRUT3 dataset.

# each row is a pseudotemperature record

instances=24 # number of records

instlength=158 # length of each record

rand1=matrix(arima.sim(list(order=c(1,0,1), ar=.9673,ma=-.4591),

n=instances*instlength),instlength,instances) #create pseudotemps

pseudotemps =(rand1-mean(rand1))*.2546/sd(rand1)

# Periodicity analysis of simple sine wave

par(mfrow=c(1,2),mai=c(.8,.8,.2,.2)*.8,mgp=c(2,1,0)) # split window

sintest=dsin((0:157)*15)# sine function

plotx=sintest

plot(detrend(plotx)~c(1850:2007),type=”l”,ylab= “24 year sine wave”,xlab=”Year”)

myperiod=periods(plotx)

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July 31, 2011 1:39 am

Drs. Svalgaard & Eschenbach
Here is 4 centuries long data file.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/4C-data.txt
To resolve the dilemma of a natural ~60 year component ‘operating’ in the geo-sphere could you please do independently spectral analysis and provide links to the output data in numerical (and graphic, if you whish to do so) form.

July 31, 2011 1:52 am

Geoff Sharp says:
July 31, 2011 at 12:56 am
Not at all. I can tell you have not read the paper
Yes I have, but doesn’t make sense.
This exercise cannot be done with the solar distance values, you need to either plot Carl’s AM values or pull out all the JPL vector data and apply a formula.
No, as I show here http://www.leif.org/Comparison-AM-Barycentric-Distance, the two curves agree very well.
No, you have prepared solar distance graphs. I have already annotated the AM graphs back to 1200BC. If they are not sufficient we will have to start again. You are not in a position yet to determine correlation.
Solar distance and AM show the same variations, so either can be used. Once can even argue that the distance is the better one [c.f. the Wolf-Patrone paper]. And the better solar curve to use is Steinhilber’s. I have annotated already: http://www.leif.org/research/Solar-Activity-vs.Barycenter-Distance-Annotated.png but probably too crudely, so you should annotate using your view on things on
http://www.leif.org/research/Solar-Activity-vs.Barycenter-Distance-BC.png
http://www.leif.org/research/Solar-Activity-vs.Barycenter-Distance-AD.png
Maybe use different colored dots for the many different types of variations you claim to see. So far, I see no correlation.

July 31, 2011 1:54 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:53 am
It is getting late:
No, as I show here http://www.leif.org/Comparison-AM-Barycenter-Distance.png , the two curves agree very well.

July 31, 2011 1:55 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:54 am
When it rains, it pours:
It is getting late:
No, as I show here http://www.leif.org/research/Comparison-AM-Barycenter-Distance.png , the two curves agree very well.

July 31, 2011 4:23 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:55 am
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:54 am
When it rains, it pours:
It is getting late:
No, as I show here http://www.leif.org/research/Comparison-AM-Barycenter-Distance.png , the two curves agree very well.

The shape of the perturbation curves is instrumental in determining the timing and strength of the perturbation. The distant graph has the perturbations in the same place but they are different. For the sake of the exercise I will transpose the perturbation values from the AM graph (1 to 5) on your graph back to 1200BC. I would normally also expand out the graph to define the detail. Another method is to compare planet angles.
I will update tomorrow, meanwhile we still have the argument to address that is the centrepoint of this thread. My powerwave diagram shows an AM modulating cycle over 172 years that is not available through Willis’s analysis. It doesn’t matter how it is displayed orbital physics dictates solar AM must be greatest (and lowest as per Landsch***t zero crossing) at the U/N conjunction. The background trend being important, the 20 year cycle is irrelevant. That is just the modulating force, if looking at the disruptive force there would be no way of recognizing a background cycle.
The same logic is applicable to the quasi 60 year cycle ala Scafetta.

Ninderthana
July 31, 2011 6:16 am

Leif Svalgaard says: July 30, 2011 at 10:30 am
LS: The seasons are synchronized with the sun [the tropical year], not with the distant stars.
This shows me that you are totally clueless about the basic physics involved.
LS: Fourier analysis of the distance [in AU] between the sun and the barycenter [inversely related to the speed; doesn’t matter which one is used]
This confirms it.
I made the mistake of assuming that you have completed a basic high school physics course. If you had you would understand the difference between magnitude and direction, between a vector and a scaler, and between the magnitude of a force and the direction of a force. Clearly you don’t.
An object will react differently depending on both the magnitude and the direction of the force that is applied to it.
Since you clearly haven’t a clue about these basic definitions there is no point going any further.
You make original Sophists look good!

Ninderthana
July 31, 2011 6:30 am

Oh and if you are wondering why I am calling Leif a sophist? The following statement by him says it all.
LS said: The seasons are synchronized with the sun [the tropical year], not with the distant stars.
If a external force plays a role in the Earth’s climate (either directly or indirectly) it most likely will be one where is applied at the same point in the seasonal (i.e. tropical year). This occurs at roughly the same point in the Earth’s orbit compared to the fixed stars (e.g. perihelion occurs on January 3rd).
Leif is trying to quibble over the slow drift the Earth’s orbit and Earth’s tilt with respect to the stars that take place over tens of thousands of years. Of course he thinks that people will be impressed by the fact that he brought up this shiny little piece of minutia, since he sees the world through the eye’s of a Sophist.

Paul Vaughan
July 31, 2011 7:19 am

Ninderthana, surely there are publications on the confounding? Do you have any references? Or perhaps the names of experts who specialize in coupling and the evolving balance of competing astrophysical synchronizations?

tallbloke
July 31, 2011 7:34 am

Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis. The Sun is tilted wrt the plane of invariance and so when the conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn takes place near the nodes of the solar equatorial plane and the plane of invariance there is less ‘pull’ on the Solar core in the up or down direction. Because the three conjunctions over the sixty year period take place almost exactly 240 degrees apart (the precession period is 934 years for a 120 degree displacement), the power of this effect will be modulated over 934/2=467 year period (because there are two nodes), but since there seems to be a ~934 year analog in Earth’s climate, (MWP-LIA-Now) it seems likely that another factor comes into play, such as the orientation of the conjunctions to the bowshock of the heliosphere (Vuk’s idea) or the orientation wrt the galactic centre.
The 467 year period is near a cyclic frequency we found to be important in this study:
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/tallbloke-and-tim-channon-a-cycles-analysis-approach-to-predicting-solar-activity/

Steve from Rockwood
July 31, 2011 7:59 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Steve from Rockwood says:
July 30, 2011 at 11:46 am
@Leif,
It looks to me as though your data set is heavily over-sampled with one single – very well represented sine wave of very high frequency (best case scenario) – superimposed on a linear trend – yes that has a higher amplitude than the sine wave.
I may be missing something but isn’t the temperature record good only for about 150 years and the cycles you are examining are are 20 to 60 years in period. Try creating a data set with 150 points that shows two 20 year cycles superimposed on what looks like a liner trend having an amplitude greater than that of the cycles. That would convince me.
If you selected a 128 point data set (one for each year) I don’t see how you have the resolution to ignore large trends in the data. A 60 year cycle represents half your time series.
If someone can point me to the raw temperature time series from 1850 to present (one that’s not fudged) I’ll dust off my FFT program and run it through.
Leif you have 45 cycles or so in your time series. Assuming a 150 year period to your data set and 4 points per cycle, you used a frequency of under 4 years equivalent. No wonder it works.
Steve

dp
July 31, 2011 9:15 am

Ninderthana says:

This occurs at roughly the same point in the Earth’s orbit compared to the fixed stars (e.g. perihelion occurs on January 3rd).

You are using spatial orientation based on star locations to describe what Leif is saying using only the local system for orientation. Both yours and Leif’s orientations land us at the same place relative to the sun in the short term, but Leif’s point remains clearer – it is only the local system and not the rest of the universe that influences with any degree of significance, our weather. That slow drift you’re kicking to the curb does in fact affect climate.

July 31, 2011 10:04 am

Ninderthana says:
July 31, 2011 at 6:16 am
An object will react differently depending on both the magnitude and the direction of the force that is applied to it.
Gravity [hence tides] between two always works along the line connecting the centers of the bodies.
The influence of the Sun on the Earth follows the tropical year [not with respect to the stars]. A simple example: the day-night cycles. There are 365 such in the course of a year, but the Earth rotates 366 times a year with respect to the distant stars.
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis.
The sun is in free fall and feels to forces so has no modulation from that source.
Steve from Rockwood says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:59 am
I may be missing something but isn’t the temperature record good only for about 150 years and the cycles you are examining are are 20 to 60 years in period.
I’m not concerned with the temperature record [and have not commented on it]. I’m looking at ten thousand years of solar cycles which people claim are responsible for the temperature changes [at least until the last half century where they claim the changes are man-made].

July 31, 2011 10:06 am

Geoff Sharp says:
July 31, 2011 at 4:23 am
I will update tomorrow, meanwhile we still have the argument to address that is the centrepoint of this thread.
Please update the graphs I gave you, so we know the data is good.

July 31, 2011 10:07 am

Ninderthana says:
July 31, 2011 at 6:16 am
An object will react differently depending on both the magnitude and the direction of the force that is applied to it.
Gravity [hence tides] between two always works along the line connecting the centers of the bodies.
The influence of the Sun on the Earth follows the tropical year [not with respect to the stars]. A simple example: the day-night cycles. There are 365 such in the course of a year, but the Earth rotates 366 times a year with respect to the distant stars.

Paul Vaughan
July 31, 2011 10:50 am

tallbloke (July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am) wrote:
“Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis.”
The dominant z-axis terms are J, S, U, & N
(none of which has a period of 60 years
and no pair of which produce 60 year beats).

July 31, 2011 11:28 am

Riding a Pseudocycle
Posted on July 30, 2011 by Willis Eschenbach
Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
“… I started all of this because I thought that the analysis of random red-noise datasets might show spurious cycles. So I made up some random red-noise datasets the same length as the HadCRUT3 annual temperature records (158 years), and I checked to see if they contained what look like cycles.”
Hi Willis,
I am sorry, but your investigation is a fallacy called Ignoratio elenchi. Nicola Scafetta has argued a ~60 year cycle from empirical evidence for a celestial origin of the climate oscillations. In his paper in 2010 on Fig. 2 a ~ 60 year cycle is possible, and because it is not out of the question that there is a real basis from celestial body frequencies, this period can have a real basis in the solar system.
Your investigation is a demonstration using irrelevant material, which you call random, (random is not an object of science, because it cannot be proofed. It is like the demonstration 3/0 = infinite, 4/0 = infinite, conclusion 3 = 4.)
‘The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do with that conclusion.’
That indeed there is some celestial substance behind a ~60 year cycle one can find if he sum up some synodic tide couples using of empirical magnitudes:
http://volker-doormann.org/gif/bulloides_1650_a.gif
OK, there are some more tunes as the ~60 year sound, but as the possible simulation shows, there IS a connection.
The point of critique was taking the cycle as cycle without any phase or coherence in time
Like darkness, or cold, also pseudo is not to be grasp, always only intensity or heat or that what IS (real) (Parmenides).
Volker

old engineer
July 31, 2011 11:39 am

Willis-
Thanks for another thought provoking post. You always make me think and stretch my math knowledge and understanding.
I am not at all qualified to comment on the discussion of Fourier Analysis versus Periodicity Analysis. But there something in the logic of your discussion that I don’t understand.
You take a number of red noise cycles (and one real world cycle- HadCRUT3) and apply Periodicity Analysis to them. You get cycles for each case. Doesn’t that discredit the idea of using Periodicity, since it shows cycles where there were none? And as you point out, you can’t tell the HadCRUT3 data from the red noise.
If I understand Fourier Analysis correctly, if you did a Fourier Analysis on your red noise cycles you would get a whole bunch of sine waves for each case that would add up to the actual data over the year range considered (So you get cycles here too, where there are none). Of course, these sine waves are just mathematical entities that happen add up to the data over the range considered. So I really don’t see the difference between using Periodicity Analysis and Fourier Analysis.
I remember when I first started looking at temperature data several years ago, The thing that jumped out at me was the eyeballed 60 year cycle of the data (of course the data coverage is only for two 2 cycles). Your random 21 looks most like the HadCRUT3 data (although you don’t say you included it the graphs). Its shows a strong 60 year cycle.
I understand (I think) that with Periodicity Analysis the component cycles don’t have to be sine waves, which may help in understanding the physical causes of the temperature variation. But my question is: If with periodicity Analysis you can’t distinguish between red noise and a real cycle how is it better than Fourier Analysis?
Thanks again for making me think and expanding my understanding.

tallbloke
July 31, 2011 1:16 pm

Paul Vaughan says:
July 31, 2011 at 10:50 am
tallbloke (July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am) wrote:
“Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis.”
The dominant z-axis terms are J, S, U, & N
(none of which has a period of 60 years
and no pair of which produce 60 year beats).

Clearly you didn’t understand what I wrote, assuming you bothered to read it.

tallbloke
July 31, 2011 1:25 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 10:04 am
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis.
The sun is in free fall and feels to forces so has no modulation from that source.

There is a relativistic effect proposed by Ray Tomes which could account for motion of the solar core relative to the surface caused by the passage of the outer planets above and below the solar equatorial plane which would cause significant meridional flows at the solar surface. The resultant amplitude of motion of the core would not introduce a detectable libration in Mercury’s orbit however, so that previous objection of yours is ruled out.

July 31, 2011 1:38 pm

tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:25 pm
There is a relativistic effect proposed by Ray Tomes
Sorry, Ray’s ‘harmonic theories’ [ http://ray.tomes.biz//maths.html ] are pseudo-science, worthy of a place on your blog. His ‘relativistic effect’ http://ray.tomes.biz/rt106.htm is gibberish.

tallbloke
July 31, 2011 2:50 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2011 at 1:38 pm
Ray’s ‘harmonic theories’ [ http://ray.tomes.biz//maths.html ] are pseudo-science, worthy of a place on your blog. His ‘relativistic effect’ http://ray.tomes.biz/rt106.htm is gibberish.
You are entitled to your opinions, poorly informed and boorish though they are.

Paul Vaughan
July 31, 2011 2:57 pm

tallbloke (July 31, 2011 at 1:16 pm) “Clearly you didn’t understand what I wrote, assuming you bothered to read it.”
There’s no stationary 60 year cycle in terrestrial climate.

tallbloke
July 31, 2011 3:09 pm

Paul Vaughan says:
July 31, 2011 at 2:57 pm
tallbloke (July 31, 2011 at 1:16 pm) “Clearly you didn’t understand what I wrote, assuming you bothered to read it.”
There’s no stationary 60 year cycle in terrestrial climate.

The 60 year J-S signal in the z-axis barycentre data is modulated by U & N, which shifts things around quite a lot.

Paul Vaughan
July 31, 2011 3:59 pm

tallbloke (July 31, 2011 at 3:09 pm)
“The 60 year J-S signal in the z-axis barycentre data is modulated by U & N, which shifts things around quite a lot.”
Uh, yeah, ok. Be sure & show us your methods…

July 31, 2011 4:15 pm

tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 2:50 pm
You are entitled to your opinions, poorly informed and boorish though they are.
hitting a new low point, eh?

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