UPDATE: Monckton offers apology, see below
Given the recent elevated rhetoric in Australia, the claims of death threats, and the media suggestions of skeptics getting tattooed and gassed, I was dismayed to see this in news.acom.au:
h/t to WUWT reader AdderW for the link to the above story.
Since I was invited to tour and speak in Australia last year at many of the same venues, I feel I should comment on this.
Alarmists in Australia are doing enough damage to themselves with over the top rhetoric. We don’t need to weaken our position on our interpretations of the data uncertainty and the science problems by committing rhetorical suicide.
Nobody has ever won an argument by invoking Godwins Law.
While Lord Monckton is free to speak his mind however he wishes, it is my opinion that this has no place in the debate, nor do the recent ugly calls from Australian columnists Richard Glover and Jill Singer.
I’m certainly not blameless in the issue of civility in the climate debate, as I’ve had my moments where I’ve rattled off an angry comment missive or a post that was misinterpreted that I have later regretted. There’s plenty of “heat of the moment” examples of that on both sides.
However, putting swastikas in planned public powerpoint presentations, and linking that by name to a person, is in my opinion, way over the top and in very bad form and totally hijacks and negates the important messages elsewhere in the presentation.
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UPDATE: Lord Monckton responds in comments
Monckton of Brenchley says:
I have been a very bad Lord. My remarks about Professor Garnaut were unparliamentary and unstatesmanlike. Mea maxima culpa. I have apologized to him unreservedly, and I deserve the criticisms that Anthony and many commentators have posted here. Sorry to you all. I shall try to keep my cool in future. – M of B
He says similar things in this Telegraph article:
Lord Monckton has since apologised for the remarks.
Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he said: “I have written to Ross Garnaut to withdraw unreservedly and to apologise humbly. What I said about his opinions was unparliamentary and unstatesmanlike.”
Anyone care to comment on the claim by potholer54 (Peter Hadfield) on youtube that Monckton has made a litany of errors? See http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/c/A4F0994AFB057BB8/13/fbW-aHvjOgM.
Bill
Well, hold on a second… aren’t we “deniers” – the original term meant to be the equivalent of Holocaust Deniers. It seems to me that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
But rather than invoke Godwin’s Law, you have now also invoked the Streisand’s Effect – because I certainly wouldn’t have seen it if you hadn’t published it Anthony.
Yep, he jumped the shark on this one. He has always been an irritating Sot but he has his facts straight.
You can’t stoop to their level. The real reason WUWT is so popular is the general ebb and flow is mature and respectfull. Trolls are tolerated to a point and shown the door. I doubt Lord Moncton’s behavior would be tolerated here. You will not win in the end if you don’t dial it down Sir.
Well, Lord Mockton has long woven the facscist thread through his speeches and presentations, as when he referred to certain groups at Copenhagen as Hitler Youth. In fact, he rarely concludes any speech without some such allusion. Unfortunately, he now seems to have elevated this meme to such a level that the veracity of any points he is making are immediately destroyed. This is so clearly counterproductive, one wonders how the old sage could have committed such an egregious error.
Yes, I agree with most here that Lord Monkton’sinclusion of the Nazi swastika, or more precisely Nazi Germany’s defunct flag, not mention his strong, aggressive language, are decidedly way over the top. It is insulting to those of us who lost family members in the fight against the Nazis, inaccurate from a factual perspective, and damaging to the skeptics who are already judged by higher and very different standards.
This stunt by the otherwise admirable Lord will also damage any honest exploration into some unfortunate and worrying similarities between modern environmentalism and that of Nazi Germany, which was the first state to systematically implement environmentalism and animal rights activism on a significant, nation-wide scale. Tarnishing people who either do not know of this dark side of the environmental movement’s history, or who genuinely believe that the connection between environmentalism and National Socialism is unfortunate, but purely coincidental and unrelated to the basic principles, is unfair and counter-productive. But the highest cost will be born by Lord Monckton, who will now find it difficult to shake the “crank” label. I dearly hope that he will quickly recognize his error and take measures to mitigate it.
They’ve been called “econazi’s” for a long time, and for good reason.
And what does it take to convince you that the alarmists ARE killers?
They have killed tens of thousands through food riots, and may kill millions via the economic collapse caused by carbon taxes of many kinds.
It is my considered opinion that the motivation of many of them is in fact, to kill or torture as many people as possible and get away with it, and they are willing to do absolutely anything to wildlife and vegetation to accomplish that.
Hi Anthony!
At the Swedish Climat Scam I wrote satire of the “humanty on trial” and described it as a opposit “Nûrnberg trial”.
Behind closed doors the prosecutor made his case and we dont know who or how human kind was defended.
When Germans with names like Schnelluber Merkel und Goettinger begins to talk about a reduction of human kind global government… I dont know how not to react and make history proof what happens when these kind of thoughts and values is allowed to spread without critisism or opposition.
For me the tendenses are perfectly fascistic and the authorian signals ant are as well. When you watch “No pressure” the systematic censuship on AGW sites and the ad hominem and attacks on different opinions with “guilty by association” .its time to realize that the movement has very clear fascistic tools apperance and behaviors. That doesnt mean that every AGW believer is a fascist but the movement with its disruption of skeptic meetings “deniarism” and stupid owercooked propaganda.with no acceptance for “different thnkers” like in Sovjet..
If they are not fascist. and dictorian? Why do they systematicly act like they are? The basics with fascism is that people rulled by it is not to live their lives for their own good but to a purpose formulated by the fascist government the state or as inthe AGW case the “needs of the planet” difnied and formulatet with the monopoly rights to formulate it. So take your bananas out of your ears and realize what the AGW really is and many of its follwers havent undersood what they got in touch with.. Im very sorry Anthony but if it barks like a dog…..
No pressure
Attack on B Lomborg.
Robinson says:
June 22, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Well, hold on a second… aren’t we “deniers” – the original term meant to be the equivalent of Holocaust Deniers. It seems to me that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
I’d turn that around. I am offended when someone calls me a “denier” (although also encouraged, because it means they have no case to argue), and for exactly that reason (the link to holocaust denial). By the same token we shouldn’t go out of our way to cause offence by using similar terms to describe those who happen to disagree with us.
Let’s debate the facts, not sink to name-calling.
If the loons who try to order every aspect of my life would have their way, I shan’t even be allowed to call Mussolini a Fascist or Hitler a Nazi. When newspaper columnists intimate that I should be tattooed, or imprisoned or gassed because I heretically oppose their fraudulent, pseudo-scientific conjecture, then calling them merely wrong-headed is not quite strong enough. Sometimes, totalitarians, authoritarians, and all sorts of would-be-aryans have to be called by the right name—and Godwin’s law, surely, does not apply when discussing real, murderous, send-opponents-to-concentration-camps Fascists or Nazis.
I’d liefer that Lord Monckton not display the svastika but I shall defend to a small degree of inconvenience his right to do so.
Saw it today, Lord Monckton listen and learn.
You are a voice of reason in a dissparing world, DON”T BLOW IT, are you really on our side.
Having said that I get really angry that fellow greenies beleive in climate catastrophy, and I loose it. I think we all have that in common. Fair go he is virtually alone in this battle yes battle for sanity. Am, I -is he -all of us going mad with fustration.
Yes. This is having an emotional toll on people who want a GREAT future for the earth and humans living apon it.
A world in which every person can say I,m OK.
“Well, hold on a second… aren’t we “deniers” – the original term meant to be the equivalent of Holocaust Deniers. It seems to me that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.” (Robinson)
Well, not really, the goose is much more vulnerable to slander, has fewer resources in her arsenal and, more importantly, must maintain integrity for no other reason than that it is simply the right thing to do.
Anthony, the only times you yelled at me on this blog, I deserved it!
Regarding Monkton, I agree, we shouldn’t interrupt our enemies when they are in the process of destroying themselves. Let’s just send ’em more rope.
While the rhetoric can get extremely heated at times in this particular case I will defend Lord Monckton. Many have said stick to the science – that’s great if this were even close to an equal playing field – but this is not an equal playing field. This is a field dominated by the leftists/AGW mafia and their leftists media who own the playing field. The “science” is and has been lost in the leftists rhetoric combined with science organizations themselves incredible failure to even attempt to censure junk science what so ever – it is not unusual for one such as Lord Monckton to play on the exact same field with the same language as the players involved.
No doubt Nazi has been thrown about by both elected public officials/teacher’s unions, the warmest camp, etc., etc., all to often with no media or public condemnation equally delivered. Leftists get a pass while those on the opposite side get censured. This then is the hypocritical world we on this side exist in – we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
Was it over the top? To me NO! Lord Monckton served notice in no uncertain terms he will not be cowered by the talking heads wishing to gas those who disagree with them. He will not go silently into that good night – Lord Monckton came to play hardball and I for one will stand with this fine man. The difference being Lord Monckton is fully capable of walking the walk on science unlike the vast majority of the AGW believers. And when you have leftists newspapers with a lying leftist Australian government deliberately lying to its own people it is doubtful Lord Monckton would have gotten a mention on pages 32 of the leftists newspapers had he not fired back both barrels. And least anyone forgets the vast majority of Australians are firmly on Lord Monckton’s side in this matter. Over the top? Not if you live in Australia it isn’t! At the end of the day Lord Monckton stood up for the vast majority of Australians who were voiceless!
[Snip. No d-word, please, even by reference. ~dbs, mod.]
Most of the heat associated with Global Warming/Climate Change/Disruption comes from discussions–heated to the point of boiling. THAT’s the TRUE tipping point! Someday some group is going to grab some weapons and use them on their adversary, all while the earth just keeps spinning along doing what it has always done.
Stay the moral high ground, resort not to violence, and keep posting those inconvient (for the AGW crowd) facts and figures and we’ll win this war without a physical fight. (From the looks of the rhetoric and threats from the AGW acolytes, I’d say we’re winning.)
Monkton! To the corner. One month time out for you.
Yeah, Monkton went over the top. I’ve always felt that he was at times a bit too vitriolic for polite debate. He has poisoned himself with this Nazi hyperbole and is now at the level of Gore. Too bad, because he actually understands some of the science unlike the Goreacle.
Anthony
What if Monckton’s characterization of Garnaut is the most accurate one?
Merriam-Webster Online
Compare Garnaut’s recommendations in the Garnaut Climate Change Review
The Carbon Price
5 Correcting the great failure
The Copenhagen Consensus 2008 finds global warming mitigation ranks dead last in terms of cost effectiveness for the 30 greatest global humanitarian projects.
Contrast:
Poll: Australian “Carbon Tax” Wildly Unpopular TUESDAY, 07 JUNE 2011 14:29
Prof. Garaut’s recommendation to impose a carbon tax and then cap and trade appears to be “wildly unpopular” and judged very poor economics by others. Yet he seeks to have it imposed by a centralized autocratic government with severe economic and social regimentation. That seems to me to fit the definition of “fascist”.
While there is strong political opposition to its use and while there is political uproar over other’s actions, is that justification for not using an accurate term?
Correction. Copenhagen Consensus 2008 report
http://copenhagenconsensus.com/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=%2fFiles%2fFiler%2fCC08%2fPresse++result%2fCC08_results_FINAL.pdf
Quite rare are the times
when you may think as you like
and speak as you think—
so Tacitus said,
and I, for one, will attempt
to maintain that link
between thought, speech and
the freedom of expression
lest all freedoms shrink.
The green shirts has advocated:
tattooing us
putting us on trial
putting us in re-education (concentration) camps
blowing us up with the red button
alluded to knowing where we live.
These ARE Nazi like tactics!
And they call us climate “deniers”. That is why I am now calling them green shirts
Thanks
JK
Well, it just so happens that I came across the “Monckton bunkum” part 1 – 5 series on Youtube today. I never understood why this site and its audience holds him in such high esteem — do watch it and then come back and tell me you buy any of his BS at all. I certainly would not give him a public forum if I were running a website.
Some of the points raised in the above mentioned series were always glaringly obvious to me, without having to do any research on Monckton at all. Even as a casual reader/viewer I had noticed, that he will keep recycling stuff he had been called out on and debunked for in the past. That of course is no accident on his behalf. And his painfully lenghty rebuttals which have been posted here in the past didn’t have much meat and are actually in many ways not befitting to any serious party to an allegedly academic debate.
Roughly a year ago I posted right here about my concerns over getting too close to Monkton. I was roundly criticised for it. Maybe you are surprised by his latest excess, but the signs were there for all to see. He makes good sense when he isn’t being a nut job. Unfortunately this is politics; you can’t keep company with anyone who is not reliable.
Even if Monckton made his case, the use of “Nazi” as an epithet has become such a cliche that it’s probably better not to make the analogy directly. Under the present circumstances it has to sound like more of the same. Better to detail the threats to liberty, clash with democratic values, etc.
Sorry dbs – I didn’ see that word in the text (and I do look to make sure it isn’t there) but apologize if I missed it. I’ve used text from that reference here gets the point across.
Scott Covert says @ur momisugly June 22, 2011 at 12:10 pm “He has always been an irritating Sot but he has his facts straight.”
Your assertion that he has “his facts straight” is non-factual;
“I wrote to these authors and I read their papers. It turned out that none of the authors or papers made the claims that Monckton attributed to them. This pattern of misinterpretation was becoming chronic.”
Full response here;
http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/