Via Slashdot:
“On Monday, the Obama administration announced the next steps that the US will take to build its 21st century electric grid, and Information Technology is expected to play a big part in the plans. The White House hosted a 90-minute media event called ‘Building the 21st Century Electric Grid’ and is releasing a new report on what it will take for lawmakers and the private sector to come together to solve this aspect of the energy challenge.”
Here’s more from the official White House statement:
“Along with the announcement of new public and private initiatives aimed at building a smarter, expanded grid and empowering consumers, the Cabinet-level National Science and Technology Council (NSTC) will release a new report: ‘A Policy Framework for the 21st Century Grid.’ This policy framework charts a collaborative path forward for applying digital information or ’smart grid’ technologies to the nation’s electricity infrastructure to facilitate the integration of renewable sources of power into the grid; help accommodate the growing number of electric vehicles; help avoid blackouts and restore power quicker when outages occur; and reduce the need for new power plants.”
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I was waiting for someone to cite the Hoover Dam and the TVA (why not Niagara?). It’s not the 1930s or 1940s anymore…although we may be heading there. The big difference is that those projects increased generation. Transmission is dictated by physics. It’s very difficult to legislate physics (or morality). We will ALWAYS have losses due to resistance in transmission lines (see Ohm’s Law). I bet we could cut our losses significantly if we made high voltage transmission lines out of aluminum core and braided copper sheath…or better still, braided silver sheath, but you know that ain’t gonna happen. The more intelligent answer is to place generation closer to the point of use. Oddly, this simple little trick holds true for virtually any form of energy but is especially true for electricity. No matter how “smart” a grid becomes, it is still a victim of the cruel laws of physics.
In a modern society electricity is a lot like food. You can’t live without it. Generating less, charging more and expecting the masses to use less, more efficiently for the same amount of wealth is NOT the pathway to prosperity.
I would be remiss if I neglected to compliment James Sexton on his informed and insightful comments. I had no idea WUWT had a resident “meter geek” but I am very glad of it.
Hoser made some points that were so good I’m stealing them in the form of a cut and paste to some friends of mine. Pity I could find nothing with which I could disagree. Brilliant!
What really distresses me is the prospect of Powerline Broadband. The ARRL demonstrated a long time ago why this was a REALLY bad idea. The RF spurious harmonics could render a lot of the radio spectrum unusable for a lot of applications.
David Hemmann says:
June 14, 2011 at 11:47 am
From Hemmann
In response to James Sexton:
According to Dept of Energy study, a 6.9 % loss of power occurs within our system that costs consumers 19 billion a year
——————————————————————————————————-
It takes energy to push electrons along a wire (or push/pull them if ac). So you get less out of the far end than you put in at the near end. This is called power loss. Schoolboy physics.
According to Dept of Energy study, a 6.9 % loss of power occurs within our system that costs consumers 19 billion a year.
Recharging batteries for an electric car wastes between 15% and 50% of the power. The typical electric car produces more CO2 than a fossil fuel car, once you factor in the electricity production. Simply manufacturing the car creates as much CO2 as a lifetime of driving.
klem says:
June 14, 2011 at 6:17 am
All I want to know is will this reduce the cost of power to me or increase it?
Reduce it, you fool, since at “appropriate” times you won’t have any of it to use….oops my bad, except for the Obamaspeak Sophists’ interpretation of “commerce” – as a universal covering everything one does or might possibly do or not do, including just sitting around doing nothing or just thinking, as an “economic choice” or “act, regardless of choice” – such that if you aren’t using the energy, you are still participating in “commerce” and thus must pay for anyone who is using it or might or will have to use it, such as you.
Yet, despite your crass economic concerns and unholy desire to be unequal, Rejoice, for “
PeaceElectric Justice is at hand!” anyway. Kool Ade looney or Victory Gin pacified style Justice, which also conveniently happens to be able to completely substitute for Universal Health Care – Victory Gin, that is, though the cost, availability, and amount may vary according to the “correct” supply and your “complete life” calculation.Just a reminder on the one Obama promise that didn’t come with a 3 day expiration date
Not included in this cut but from the same interview is his promise to bankrupt coal powered electricity producers
They couldn’t pass Cap & Tax, but Ms. Jackson and the EPA have stepped in to accomplish the same goals in much more arbitrary and complete fashion. Never mind the shaky economic and employment prospects, we will be protected from the demon Carbon whether we need it or want it or not.
David Hemmann says:
June 14, 2011 at 11:47 am
From Hemmann
In response to James Sexton:
“According to Dept of Energy study, a 6.9 % loss of power occurs within our system that costs consumers 19 billion a year. You may wish to question their methodology, but 20 billion a year seems a rather high cost of for you and me to have to pay. I’m not advocating Obama’s approach per se. I’m advocating against the carping that hides a real need to upgrade the US infrastructure for purely economic reasons. I don’t know if anybody around here lives near Hoover Dam or the TVA, but these “government intrusions” into the private sector cost a ton of money spent just when our economy was DOA. These projects produced jobs and increased the economic welfare for a class of people.
Why not the positive discussion for a change instead of the usual “government is going to eat me” meme that thrives on paranoia. It the same non-logical hysteria of the AGW extremists from the reverse side.”
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David, I should clear things up for you. I’ve been thinking of writing a small article or even maybe a longer one with these issues discussed. What is often the problem is the lack of knowledge the public has of the electric business. I hold the electric industry responsible. It is our failing to engage and educate that brings us here. Yes, 6.9% line loss seems high…..and it is, depending upon what type of system you are and geography, etc…… The fact is, if my utility had 6.9% line loss, we’d jump for joy! Let me explain.
Line loss is generally defined as the difference between power bought and power sold….(…although generation utilities would necessarily define it differently.)
But, to view this properly, we need to consider some physics. our grid is nothing but a transport vehicle of energy. There is no vehicle that doesn’t cause loss of energy. So, we need to expect some, but where does the 6.9% come from? Well, lots of things. Speaking towards distribution only….. the sizing and length of line will effect line loss. Sizing isn’t that difficult, if things were to remain static. They don’t. People and businesses come and go and so the energy requirements specific to those parts of the line constantly change. This leaves the company in a dilemma, should we run out there and change the size of the line both there and up and downstream? That certainly would decrease the line loss, but someone has to pay for the wire, labor, and machinery…….. Other considerations for line loss. Abandoned services. For various reasons, people choose to turn off electricity to specific locations. Now, my utility is a rural utility, so things are different than say a municipality. We have almost a 1:1 relationship with transformers and meters……. that isn’t so for munis. So some one moved out, (and this example is beautiful) so, we, using smart grid technology remotely disconnect the service. But the story doesn’t end there…… everything else is still in tact. How much energy does it take to keep a pot(transformer) hot? Recall, physics tells us heat= energy, but then, the question is, “Is someone going to move back in soon?”……if they are, it isn’t worth the time energy and effort to wreck the service only to put it back up later. Heck, if we’re remotely disconnecting, is it really efficient to roll a truck to disconnect the transformer? It is not. Trees, trees are the bane of rural utilities. We’ve got over 1000 miles of line(that’s not very much.) Trees grow into our line, guess where some of the power goes…….. some of our consumers even attempt to block us from cutting the trees back from the line. Power goes to ground. As I recall, there are some other commentators here that work in other parts of the industry, and they can give you a better grasp of their issues with line loss. But I can assure you, there isn’t a one of us in the industry that believes there is a magic apple out there for all of us to take a bite and magically loose these issues. Smart grid and efficiency are misnomers in this discussion and don’t reflect reality.
I’m not stating there isn’t anything good coming from “smart grid” technology, there is…..auto line switching would be a good example, but there are some significant safety concerns that go with it. But, there are also some very bad implications thrown into this smart grid technology.
If you’d read the link I presented, you should be alarmed. I have no desire, nor intention of going beyond the meter as a electricity provider. The fact of the matter is, there is no need for the shortage of electricity we are seeing today. It is entirely self inflicted. There is no necessity to do “Time Of Use” billing. All we need to do is make more electricity. I don’t wish to operate your AC. But I can, today. There is no reason to put up solar panels….. it isn’t ready. Windmills will never be efficiently used. That is ancient technology.
The reason why we’re having a “government will eat you” conversation, is because this is what they are doing. I’m not offering an opinion. I’m stating facts. You can interpret as you wish, but this is coming from a guy that does it for a living. This isn’t a jobs project, it is a control project.
Perhaps it will come to this. Metaphors abound….
n.b – also in regard to the smartness of the smart grid, keep firmly in mind Obama’s own “logic” as to a Dr. Zeke Emmanuel “calculation” of one’s personal health care “needs”: granny don’t need that hip or back surgery, all she needs is some pain medicine and a wheelchair, and there certainly isn’t any “cost” to that calculation is there? She won’t get any narcotic side effects, such as nausea, somnolence, and constipation, and no pressure sores, further osteoporosis and muscle degeneration, no pneumonia, pulmonary emboli, or congestive heart failure from her relative lack of activity, no depression…..right? Plus, her family can watch her die “naturally” and without any need for even [further] assisted suicide!
Dr. Dave says:
June 14, 2011 at 12:33 pm
I would be remiss if I neglected to compliment James Sexton on his informed and insightful comments. I had no idea WUWT had a resident “meter geek” but I am very glad of it.
Hoser made some points that were so good I’m stealing them in the form of a cut and paste to some friends of mine. Pity I could find nothing with which I could disagree. Brilliant!
What really distresses me is the prospect of Powerline Broadband. The ARRL demonstrated a long time ago why this was a REALLY bad idea. The RF spurious harmonics could render a lot of the radio spectrum unusable for a lot of applications.
=========================================================================
Dr. Dave, thanks, and sigh….powerline broadband, that’s my next fight here. I should clarify, too. I’m not really a meter-man in the traditional sense of utility careers. I’m just an old hack of a net-admin that got this job because my employer didn’t know the subtle differences between a computer network and AMI technology. They understood it “used computers” to work, so they figured it had to be just about same-same. lol, and I always thought a phase had something to do with the lunar cycle..lol But, I’m fairly quick on the uptake……its been several years now.
hemmann in reply to Mark Wagner CPA
Mark, Sexton, Dr. Dave et al
I couldn’t agree more that it is no longer the 1930s. At that time, electricity was considered part of the national resources we all shared like water use of our streams and open range. Teddy Roosevelt, that great Republican reformer stopped monopolies price manipulation, Somehow, the idea that cost/efficiency is now more a matter of market manipulation than line efficiency is obvious. Someone mentioned the California debacle of a few years ago. May I remind you the two energy traders were recorded chuckling how they screwed Grandma. As our resident line expert says, physic is not a matter of legislation. I couldn’t agree more. The good laws can’t be broken.
That being said, how are brown outs, black outs, power disruption caused by reoccurring weather patterns that haven’t changed in our lifetimes mind you, somehow acceptable to any rational engineer or scientist who knows these are avoidable situations? Add to that that the cost of oil and the cost of electricity skyrocketed when both were put on the trading market. If you buy that line of thought, I would surmise that trading water from the Missouri, Mississippi, et al should be a matter of trade too. Want to invest in water futures?
This was not Obama’s decision, it \was the combined efforts of both parties trying to get more lobbyist money. Seeing the problem as some sort of partisan politics is half right at best.
Seeing AGW as bad critical thought makes sense. Seeing the high cost of energy as Obama’s fault suffers from the same lack of critical thinking. Just saying, engineering a national power system requires the rigors of physic and not the rhetoric of politics.
IMHO
Dave
James Sexton,
I must admit, I’m something of a groupie. As I scan down a long comment thread I always make sure to read your comments, those of RockyRoad, Willis and several others. At the same time, I’ve learned who I can avoid without missing anything. I never thought you were a “meter man”. You’re far too erudite for that. But this topic was too irresistible to avoid reading all comments. Obviously, I’m no engineer (although my father was an electronics engineer). I grew up learning about electricity and, like my late father, I’m a licensed ham. Wind power simply drives me insane. No sane engineer would choose this as a means of generating electricity when we can build nukes and are sitting on a huge pile of coal. So…do you think we should make high voltage transmission line out of steel or aluminum core with silver braid (skin effect) to build a “modern” transmission infrastructure?
I wouldn’t make jokes about LENR. There could well be an energy revolution from it once it is commercialized.
What is LENR? This video will give a basic picture of what it is:
The Patterson fuel cell is already a practical application of LENR.
ABC News report on the Patterson power cell
David Hemmann says:
June 14, 2011 at 1:59 pm
hemmann in reply to Mark Wagner CPA
Mark, Sexton, Dr. Dave et al
………..
That being said, how are brown outs, black outs, power disruption caused by reoccurring weather patterns that haven’t changed in our lifetimes mind you, somehow acceptable to any rational engineer or scientist who knows these are avoidable situations? Add to that that the cost of oil and the cost of electricity skyrocketed when both were put on the trading market. If you buy that line of thought, I would surmise that trading water from the Missouri, Mississippi, et al should be a matter of trade too. Want to invest in water futures?
This was not Obama’s decision, it \was the combined efforts of both parties trying to get more lobbyist money. Seeing the problem as some sort of partisan politics is half right at best……..
==============================================================
I see, I’ve probably left you with the wrong impression. I don’t blame Obama for the high cost of energy, but I do blame his base. You can blame it on the markets if you wish, but the way I see it, the high costs are because of the restrictive policies for building new capacity in a world of ever increasing demand. More basics. High demand+less availability = higher cost. It doesn’t matter what you do with it,(open markets or not) skyrocketing costs is what’s going to happen. Were there and are there people that would manipulate and profit from the poor judgment of our policy makers? Yep….and always will. It isn’t acceptable, but they don’t control capacity production nor the increase in demand. And, yes, there are people on both left and right that equally share blame.
That said, continuing down this road is madness. We don’t need more of this, we need to walk away from most of it. As I stated earlier, we know what works and what doesn’t. We need to scrap the initiatives of the things that have demonstrated poor return for the money and effort. And, just so I’m very clear, my position doesn’t have anything to do with bashing Obama. While I’m a conservative and usually oppose his policies, I’ve a much greater concern than trying to score political points for a team that only occasionally plays on my side. My position has to do with the fact that smart grid technology doesn’t lower the cost of electricity, it raises the cost. It is demonstrable. I thought I made it pretty clear earlier, but sometimes I make assumptions that aren’t correct and skip writing pertinent details.
James
James Sexton says:
June 14, 2011 at 11:00 am
….there’s no reason on God’s green earth why electricity shouldn’t be cheap, reliable and readily available to every resident of this nation. There’s no excuse why it isn’t except for the politically motivated lunatics that block cheap and reliable energy at every turn in any form.
======================================================================================
This statement should be on a plaque in every legislator”s, and judge”s office. In the U.S., from the local city council to Congress and the Supreme Court.
Dr. Dave says:
June 14, 2011 at 2:09 pm
James Sexton,
……
“So…do you think we should make high voltage transmission line out of steel or aluminum core with silver braid (skin effect) to build a “modern” transmission infrastructure?”
==================================================================
Its trick, and I’m probably not the one to ask. What’s cheaper…..what’s more durable and what provides best conductivity……….
As to the other stuff, that is some great company you put me in and high praise……of which I can not hold to be true, but, that was a nice complement which I’ll probably print out and put on my “I love me” wall.
Thanks Dave.
from Hemmann to James Sexton
You and I share more than my words may have conveyed also.
My comments were directed to the more general discussion that currently takes place here concerning policy. Regulation is not the hobgoblin portrayed so often. Wouldn’t you agree the spent rod overfilled cooling pools in Japan could have used a little over site from someone not concerned with profit/risk as its primary criteria?
Anyway, i do appreciate your time in this discussion, I know I came away more aware of factors. My comments were meant in just the same way.
Thanks
James Sexton says:
================================
You go……..
I’m just hanging on for the ride, watching you do what you do best……..;-)
We had some ‘smart’ grid ideas from our CEO National Grid. As I understand the smart part: basically a computer decides whether you get to use your PC or I get to use my washing machine. Too bad for the one whose power goes off! The smart part I suppose is who can hack their computer to keep their lights on!
With a smart grid we could have a register for those who oppose nuclear or coal power plants and turn them off first when power shortages arrive.
Bureaukrats can’t even properly roast a Wiener. How can we Evah trust them with the energy distribution system of this country?
Who is John Galt? And where is Atlantis?
James Sexton says:
June 14, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Its trick, and I’m probably not the one to ask. What’s cheaper…..what’s more durable and what provides best conductivity……….
___________________________________________________________________________________________
It is indeed a trick, Sir. My Dad caught me in that one when I knew “everything” at about 19 years of age. Silver has the best conductivity of virtually any common metal under normal atmospheric conditions. Trouble is, it’s weak, highly corrosive and expensive. But man, oh mam is it an efficient conductor of electricity. I used to subscribe to a newsletter by a Dr. Selevan. He was was an E.E. before he trod down the road to perdition and became an M.D. He wrote about drugs but he always included a little blurb about physics which I always loved. He would explain why soap bubbles shimmer, how little kids playing little league baseball actually have less reaction time to a pitch than big league ball players (ball velocity and the distance between mound and home plate). In one issue he described high voltage transmission lines. I was utterly fascinated. I’m talking about those those high voltage transmission lines strung up on the very high towers. It is cost prohibitive to bury them mostly because they need to be “air cooled” for efficiency.. They’re not made out out highly conductive materials (e.g. copper) due to expense and lack of physical durability. So they make them out of high tensile steel and aluminum which favors the weight and strength side of the equation. Sure…we could make more efficiently conductive power lines…but at what cost. Would the benefits outweigh the costs? I’m not sure these Smart Grid advocates have worked out the physics that electrical engineers had down to a science 50 years ago.
Dr. Dave says:
June 14, 2011 at 3:40 pm
It is indeed a trick, Sir. My Dad caught me in that one when I knew “everything” at about 19 years of age. Silver has…….. I’m talking about those those high voltage transmission lines strung up on the very high towers. It is cost prohibitive to bury them mostly because they need to be “air cooled” for efficiency.. They’re not made out out highly conductive materials (e.g. copper) due to expense and lack of physical durability. So they make them out of high tensile steel and aluminum which favors the weight and strength side of the equation. Sure…we could make more efficiently conductive power lines…but at what cost. Would the benefits outweigh the costs? I’m not sure these Smart Grid advocates have worked out the physics that electrical engineers had down to a science 50 years ago.
============================================================
That sure is part of it. But it’s worse, they hear the words “smart grid” and “efficiency” and wet themselves believe people like your father or Dr. Selevan didn’t know anything then and people in the industry now are just evil profiteers, intentionally making people suffer through laws of physics that surely don’t apply today. That there must be a much better way of doing things today…. mostly because the technology hasn’t changed much since 70 years or so ago. The fact is, the only thing needing change was that we needed more. Efficiency is its own reward and profit seeking companies will adopt efficiency when it passes a cost/benefit analysis. But, throw in some PR, government grants, and threats for not adopting and all of that goes out the window. Sure they’ll adopt, and pass the costs on to the consumer. We’ve already seen this across the nation. And we wonder why we’re still suffering from our economic doldrums.
Sadly, that ship is sailing and will leave port if we don’t turn it around soon. The tech cycle has already engaged. Factories have been converted and exported. (I believe Itron is the only company that has meter production plants in the U.S. now.) Soon the cost of reverting will be too great to overcome. We’ll have an always upward pressure on energy pricing because of this …… this insanity.
Smart grid technologies can provide some advantages from better fault identification to load management options. However, since this will be paid for by each regulated utility’s captive customer base there is no reason that the feds should have any role at all. How much of this should be installed and paid for by customers should be decided by the regulators in each state. Logically, not every state will decide they want everything………or perhaps anything.