
Guest post by Dr. Jerome Ravetz
While the micro-bureaucracy of the Lisbon workshop bureaucracy grinds its way towards the release of a statement, I realise that the time is long overdue for me to touch base at WUWT.
After all, it was at WUWT (with the help of Rog Tallbloke) that I made my debut on the blogosphere, and enjoyed the reaction of hundreds of readers, be they enthusiastic or vitriolic. Also, it was on WUWT that I had the first experience of seeing non-violent communication in the Climategate debate. The circumstances were surprising, for it involved our very own fire-eating champion Willis.
He was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition. But he had to admit that he respected and admired her for guts in doing a Daniel act, and facing the lions like himself. At that point, non-violence in the climate debate was born. For Willis had realised that bad people are not necessarily all bad. There might even be some purpose in talking to them! From that point on, WUWT could take the lead in enforcing civility in the debate, and I am very pleased to see how the principle has spread all across the lines.
Reflecting on that incident, I began to shape up ideas for the workshop that eventually took place last month. Of course it was highly imperfect, with many things done and not done in error. But what was remarkable was the universal spirit of accomplishment, even delight, that people were getting on so well and so productively. Of course, this depended to some extent on our choice of invitations; we did get close to the edge of the zone on the spectrum within in which people would be sure to be reasonably civil to each other. On that first meeting, with so much other learning to do, it would not have been productive to have explosions of mutual insults. Another time, we could try to take on that one as well.
I suppose people know that I went to a Quaker college, Swarthmore, and I have spent all the years afterwards making sense of its message of nonviolence. In a course on political science I read ‘The Power of Non-Violence’ by Richard Gregg. It struck me as very sweet but quite unrealistic. Between then and now was Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, and now Tunisia, Egypt and beyond. It seems that a group of non-violent activists in Serbia had used a book by one of Gregg’s followers, Gene Sharp. They had passed the message to a study group in Qatar, and it was picked up by the activists in Tunisia and Egypt to become the basis of their strategy. The rest is history in the making. There is at last some chance that revolutions now will not simply produce new tyrannies. All this gives support to my conviction that we were correct in making the main purpose of the Lisbon workshop to further the development of non-violence in scientific debate.
My principle has always been that you don’t know what the other person is going through, and to return their violence doesn’t help them resolve their conflict of conscience. It’s so easy to condemn the evil ones and try to destroy them; that way we would still have the sectarian killings in Northern Ireland and probably a bloodbath in South Africa. On the personal level, who would have known that the slave-trader John Newton was being prepared for the experience that would eventually lead him to compose ‘Amazing Grace’?
With those words of explanation, I offer my Lisbon public lecture to Anthony Watts for debate on WUWT. This, I believe is the essence of the Lisbon story, rather than who said what about whom. Willis – over to you!
==================================================================
Non-Violence in Science?
Jerome Ravetz,
‘Reconciliation in the Climate Change Debate’
Public Meeting at the Gulbenkian Foundation
Lisbon 28 January 2011
People attending this conference might find the whole idea of non-violence in science to be strange. We are familiar, by now, with the use of reconciliation and non-violence to resolve intractable disputes in the political sphere. Indeed, it is now generally accepted that this is the only way to achieve a lasting and just settlement in conflicts between peoples. It worked in South Africa and in Northern Ireland, and noone with standing in the international community argues for a different approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict. But science? What possible relevance could this approach have to science?
Debate, sometimes fierce and impassioned, is the lifeblood of science. The advances of science do not occur smoothly and by consensus. There are always at least two sides to the interpretation of new theories and results. Social researchers have found that each scientific side explains its own attitudes in methodological terms, and explains the attitudes of the opposition in sociological terms. Roughly speaking, “I” am being a scientist, and “They” are being – something else. All this is quite natural and inevitable, and it has been that way from the beginning.
The process does not work perfectly. There is no ‘hidden hand’ that guides scientists quickly and correctly to the right answer. There can be injustices and losses; great innovators can languish in obscurity for a lifetime, because their theories were too discordant with the prevailing paradigm or ‘tacit knowledge’. However, to the best of our knowledge, the correct understanding does eventually emerge, thanks to the normal processes of debate and to the plurality of locations and voices in any field of science.
Why, then, have we organised a scientific conference about reconciliation, where we have actually had instruction in the theory and practice of ‘Non-Violent Communication’? Do we really need to import the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi into the conduct of science? We believe that on this occasion we do. This conference has not been about science in general, or any old field of science. The focus has been on Climate Change, and in particular the rancour that has been released by the ‘Climategate’ emails from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England.
This debate has not just been about the science of climate change It also concerns policy, for reducing the emissions of Carbon Dioxide worldwide. This requires a very large, complex and expensive project. It extends into lifestyles and values, as the transition out of a carbon-based economy will require a change in our ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life. There are urgent issues of equity, both between rich and poor peoples now, and also between ourselves and our descendants. All these profound issues depend for their resolution on an adequate basis in science. Some say, if we are not really sure that bad things are happening, why bother imposing these drastic and costly changes on the world’s people? But others reply, by what right can we use scientific uncertainty as an excuse for failing to protect ourselves and our descendants from irreversible catastrophe?
Both of those positions accept that there is a real debate about the strength of the science, and effectively argue about the proper burden of proof, or degree of precaution that is justified. But there are plenty of voices on the extremes. For quite some time, the official scientific establishments, particularly in the Anglophone world, claimed that ‘the science is settled’, and ‘the debate is over’. At the opposite extreme are those, including some quite reputable scientists, who argue that nothing whatever has been proved about the long-term changes in climate that might be resulting from the current increase in the concentration of Carbon Dioxide. Between these extremes, the explanations of opposing views are not merely sociological. They become political and moral. Each side accuses the other of being corrupt. The ‘skeptics’ or ‘deniers’ are dismissed as either working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists. In short, as being either prostitutes or cranks. In their turn, the ‘alarmists’ or ‘warmistas’ are accused of feathering their own nests as grant-gaining entrepreneurial scientists, playing along with their own dishonest ideological politicians. In their protestations of scientific objectivity, they are accused of the corruptions of hypocrisy.
In the classic philosophy of science, it was imagined that debates would be settled by a ‘crucial experiment’. The observations made by Eddington in 1919 confirmed Einstein’s general theory of relativity, tout court. Before that, Rutherford showed that the atom is nearly all empty space, with a massive nucleus and planetary electrons circling it. Such crisp, clean experiments are taken as characteristic of natural science, establishing its status as solid knowledge, superior to the mere opinions of the social sciences and humanities. Where such crucial experiments happen not to occur, as in the case of Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection, it is assumed that they would occur if we could devise them. For that is the essence of science.
When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced. Suffice to say that the application of the Arrhenius model to the actual conditions on earth, including all the effects that could modify the entry and exit of radiant energy, plus the storage of heat in the oceans, leaves plenty of room for debate for those that want it. And the Mauna Loa data extend only over a half-century; extrapolating that backwards or forward is again not entirely straightforward.
Hence the climate science debate is one where all the features that make natural science different from sociology, or indeed from politics, are weakened or absent. And in the course of that debate we have discovered a serious flaw in the prevailing philosophy of science: there is no explanation of honest error. Students of science never see a failed experiment or a mistaken theory; for them it is success and truth all the way. Only those who have done truly innovative research discover how intimately are success and failure, truth and error, connected. And so when a scientist finds him- or herself convinced of the truth of a particular theory, they have no framework for treating their erring opponent with respect. “I” am right, “you” are wrong, and by persisting in your error you demonstrate that your failings are moral as well as intellectual. In the ordinary course of scientific debate such attitudes are kept under control, but in the total, complex climate science debate they come to dominate.
The debate has passed its peak of intensity, as the failure of Copenhagen has taken the impetus out of the policy drive. But the rancour and bitterness are unresolved. There has been some softening of attitudes about the issue of global warming, but (so far as I can see) little softening of emotions about past adversaries. It is for that reason that my colleagues and I have made this unusual experiment, if you wish bringing Gandhi to science or even science to Gandhi. As we planned it, our hopes were modest indeed. We could not imagine attracting people with very hardened views on the other side. We know that political negotiations begin with intermediaries, then perhaps progress to members in adjacent rooms, eventually have principals all ensconced in a secret location, and only when it is all over do they meet in public. Of course people don’t trust and respect each other at the start; and they themselves are distrusted by their own side even for dealing with the enemy. Only gradually, with many fits and false starts, is trust built up.
So for our first little experiment, we brought together people who would at least talk to those we brought with opposing views. And of course, what is essential in such activities, all who are there agree that this is an important venture. When we saw how some very busy people have enthusiastically agreed to come from very long distances, we felt that this venture is indeed worthwhile. Of course we hope that by its success it will lead to others. We do not at all intend to ‘solve’ the climate science debate, or to reach a consensus on whether we must now mount a global campaign against Carbon Dioxide. That is to be left to other forums, organised from within the appropriate scientific institutions. If we can only get people talking, and eventually framing particular scientific questions on which agreement could in principle be reached, that will have been as great a success as we could hope for.
We would also like such a venture as this to be an example of the power of non-violence, even in science. The great culture heroes of the last half-century have been defined by non-violence: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, and now Aung San Suu Kyi. They all paid a price for their convictions, sometimes a heavy one. We note that none were white men, and none were scientists. This is not to say that non-violence has been totally absent from science. We all know of Einstein and his ambivalent relation to warfare; and there is the late Sir Joseph Rotblat, who gave up a career in science to found the Pugwash movement for East-West dialogue during the cold war. But if we search for scientists who have really lived out their non-violent convictions, we find two nonwhite women: Wangerai Maathai and Vandana Shiva.
That reflection brings me to the state of science itself. Those of an older generation remember a time when the prestige of science was unquestioned. Science would save the world, and scientists would do the saving. It is all different now, and the mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate have not helped. One of the most important influences that drove me to a personal involvement in this debate was a report by our distinguished colleague Judith Curry, of a conversation with a student. This student was dismayed by the Climategate story that had just broken, and wondered whether this was the sort of career that she wanted to take up. We all know what happens to institutions when they fail to attract the brightest and the best young people. Slowly, perhaps, but surely, they atrophy and wither.
You see the connection. If ‘science’ comes to be seen by young people as the sort of institution where Climategate happens, and where scientists insult and condemn each other, its future is not bright. Of course, this negative reaction would happen only at the margins; but it is at the margins where we will find the really wonderful young people that we need. I cannot prescribe, indeed I can scarcely imagine, how the spirit of non-violence that has inspired the political world can be imported effectively into science. But I would argue that it is an attempt that is well worth making, even for the future of science itself.
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More precisely what he means to say is that there is no theory of honest error. Of course one can “explain” why particular errors are made. But this is ad hoc and after the fact. he’s also pointing to the phenomena of “personalizing” and politicizing error.
In short, because we have no theory or explanation of honest error, we tend to fall into explantions that suit our needs. He was a marxist, he was a green, he was getting paid by big Oil. That’s the phenomena Ravetz is interested in.
I would bring it up because there are still people who deny it. We cannot begin to talk about the real uncertainties ( which you allude to) if we dont have some common agreed upon basis. So, It’s not a strawman. Read Judith Curry’s blog and see how persistent some people are with their refusal to accept science that actually works.
That’s why folks like me and ryan O and jeff id who are critical of climate science shenanigans, really want people to understand this. C02 causes warming. The issue is HOW MUCH. if skeptics focused on that then a couple things might be possible.
1. Charges about being anti science would not stick
2. the real issue would get our full attention
3. some people might be more receptive to complaints about data sharing etc.
eadler says
“Most of the skeptical arguments have actually been knocked down in the peer reviewed literature, but most of the skeptics don’t seem to know this. For this reason, it is important to continue a civil scientific discussion in blogs like this one.”
———————————–
I don’t get why it’s important. Why wouldn’t you leave us alone in our foil hat, flat earth echo chamber? I bet you’re not showing up on all the astrology and conspiracy sites to try and bring them into the fold.
steven mosher says:
February 22, 2011 at 1:29 pm
I found his (and I guess your) “view of my attitude” to be condescending, crass, stupid, and most importantly, very wrong. If you think his direct nasty frontal assault on me is “sly”, then I feel sorry for your mom, you must have been a real trial for her.
And if all of his nasty, snarky name-calling was just a “rhetorical device”, then either I don’t understand rhetoric, or you and he don’t. What he put out there was a slimy insult, Mosh, even though you seem to think it was ice cream.
I found it incredible that after such a low-life attack on me that Jerry had the nerve to even mention “non-violence”, that’s like Ted Nugent claiming to advocate the joys of the Vegan life …
w.
In addition, the theory of global warming does not rest on the thermometer record. It is based on the physics as represented in the models…
Bravo, eadler! That’s the very essence of your “science.”
As Nikola Tesla observed, “Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.”
I would be more convinced about AGW if history showed that the science community as a whole decided that co2 greenhouse warming was a big problem and government needed to do something it but history shows that it was governments who decided to fund AGW research to determine that there was a problem.
eadler says: February 22, 2011 at 8:44 pm
How can a sample size of 2,251 adults be representative from a population of US individuals (a rough count of 15yrs+) 245,267,292 be representative?
That is a phenomenal art of reporting using sampling and weighting.
Perhaps it is a household survey? In which case it is should be stated as such. I also note they like to weight towards youth?
‘This ratio is based on an analysis that attempts to balance cost and fieldwork considerations as well as to improve the overall demographic composition of the sample (in terms of age, race/ethnicity and education). This ratio also ensures a minimum number of cell only respondents in each survey.’
http://people-press.org/methodology/about/
I would be more convinced about AGW if history showed that the science community as a whole decided that co2 greenhouse warming was a big problem and government needed to do something about it but history shows that it was governments who decided to fund AGW research to determine that there was a problem.I think that governments need to stop funding the IPCC and AGW alarmists in order to get a clearer picture of what is happening to the climate .
eadler,
“Most of the skeptical arguments have actually been knocked down in the peer reviewed literature, but most of the skeptics don’t seem to know this.”
Its the ones that don’t get knocked down that get you.
“It is based on the physics as represented in the models, and the ice age record which confirms the range of climate sensitivities which scientist have been predicting from their simulations.”
Climate sensitivities across an ice age/interglacial tipping point are not relevant to the sensitivity to CO2 in today’s climate over the next couple centuries in a warming climate. There is no model independent evidence to support the model sensitivities and net feedbacks to CO2 in this climate. The sensitivities of models that represent less than half the observed increase in precipitation (per Wentz) are just as irrelevant for projecting the current climate as they should be irrelevant for projecting “increased” risk of drought.
Do you have an informed opinion on the AGW hypothesis, if so, it looks like the AGW community still has not come up with any better evidence?
“Climate Science is a recognized branch of Physics. ”
No it isn’t. It is a multidisciplinary field, generally considered an earth science like geology and meteorology. As a result, very few “climate scientists” have an informed opinion on the AGW hypothesis. Glaciologists, paleo-climatologists, various biological temperature proxy specialists, solar activity proxy specialists, cloud physics model specialists, aerosol emission and tracking specialists, radiative transfer specialists, satellite instrument specialists, etc. would have to have gone out of their way to have an informed opinion on the state of the assessment of the net feedback to CO2 forcing in the current climate, and some of them might have done so, but the research is really just in the line of work of a few climate scientists.
Gerry
I think the least thing you need do is to come to terms with Willis – that also means being willing to listen and learn from him. Willis represents the nub of what makes many/most of us here wild with anger/distress with what CAGW have done to Scientific Method. I still don’t think you understand why we are passionate about Scientific Method.
I have also given you a way through. I think that PNS is, at its highest, most useful and ethical function, capable of recognizing the human dimension. The human dimension that has been “excluded” from Scientific Method, and has eventually found ways of biting back.
That human dimension needs to be re-included. But it needs to be re-included via the front door ie a reconsideration of Scientific Method itself, not to dismiss or dilute the search for Truth and the classic experimental methods used in that search, but to deepen its understood and accepted remit.
At present, PNS is only a back-door approach. It is not the “straight and narrow way”.
Steven,
‘You “said what you think” just to get it off your chest. You have no intention of convincing anyone or reasoning with anyone or entertaining anyone or any of that. You dont care how your audience reacts. This is NOT what ravetz has done. He has not simply said what he thinks.’
Saying that I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks about what I said doesn’t mean there was no point posting it. Each reader will take from it whatever s/he wants; I don’t care whether they are approving or not approving, but some might draw something useful or interesting from it.
And if Ravetz hasn’t simply said what he thinks, has he said what someone else thinks? Or, do you mean that he has not simply got something off his chest, which you telepathically divined was my motive?
You are speaking soft-seeming words, Steven, but your mind is making a number of assumptions about my motivations and attempting to cast me in the role of villain or simpleton, I’m not sure which. I don’t personally care what you think of my piece, but I do want you to reflect and see how you yourself, and Ravetz, might be coming across despite the superficially saintly tones.
I don’t want to be effective in the sense you mean. If I want to be effective, it’s only in demonstrating to Ravetz that I think he’s living in a dreamworld, using the climate issue as a trojan horse to promote his ideas about PNS. Of course, he’ll ignore that and carry on regardless, but at least he’ll be aware people aren’t rolling over and accepting what I regard as a faux solution to a problem which can only truly be solved by a return to basic scientific principles and ethics.
Hence my mention of Muller at Berkeley. Though he’s a warmist and I’m somewhat sceptical, he thinks, as I do, that such a return will work. He seems a man, albeit on the other side of the fence, that one can do business with and have some confidence in. With a man like that, civilised dialogue would come quite naturally, and no need at all for PNS.
Willis Eschenbach.
I dunno, One way to read “I love you, but” is very simple. You wanted to give yourself
cover. If you look at the balance of your essay on Judith you spent a bunch of time raking her over the coals and a small bit of time praising her. One way to read that
is that you really dont have all those nice feelings at all, but you cant bring yourself to hit a girl.
That’s a way to read it. Now, since I know you, I know the praise is probably real.
But Jerry doesnt have that benefit. On the other hand, I also know Jerry and we spoke about you at dinner. He has high regard for you. So, one way to read his text is to
understand that he wanted to draw this stark contrast. Even though Willis loathes Judith for X Y and Z, he does compliment her. Now of course you are free to take a harsher reading of this, but I’m in the unfortunate position of knowing you both and I think the truth is more toward my view of things. But, your free to your interpretation.
Interpretations are not like science, there is no real falsification of them. The closest you can get to that is the kind of retraction you had to do, where people thought you were calling Judy stupid. Maybe Jerry missed that correction?
Finally, you miss the key point. The start of non violent communication doesnt mean you drop your angry words. As ravetz says its ENOUGH for you or me or him to acknowledge that we are not completely evil. As for my Mom. You did know that she died in childbirth?
gotcha.
steven mosher says:
February 22, 2011 at 10:04 pm
Steve, If you can yes, a brief summary, and a link or two would be appreciatied. As of now I find most of many of the comments I linked well written and convincing.
My entire post at David says: February 22, 2011 at 6:30 am is a summary of my concernes with PNS. I have heard you talk about how when the need is urgent, then PNS has to be involved, yet as I stated “It is science, done correctly, that determines if decisions are “URGENT” and to rush prematurely to policy is to CREATE conflict, especially when that POLICY is what places “values in conflict“, demanding trillions in revenue, and world wide social restructure, centralizing power away from the individual, and even democracy, (when have the CAGW proponents ever said “lets vote on this”), and threatens the liberty of billions.
Steve Mosher says,
“That’s why folks like me and ryan O and jeff id who are critical of climate science shenanigans, really want people to understand this. C02 causes warming.
The issue is HOW MUCH. if skeptics focused on that then a couple things might be possible.”
Steve, this is about the third time you have said this recently and I think clarity is important. I wish this would read, The issue is how much, and how harmful or BENEFICIAL is the additional CO2 induced warmth. It is the C in CAGW that most of us have an issue with.
Steven Mosher
I also found your comments defending what Mr Ravetz wrote in that paragraph about Willis strange, and something that will weaken other things you say, if you wish to influence them. Willis sucessfully came to his own defense. Here was my perspective.
Mr. Ravetz, for a man advocating non violence, you use rather inflammatory language. Speaking of Willis you say… ”Of course he LOATHED HER for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he DESPISED HER for attempting to apologize for her actions rather than CRAWLING to WUWT in full contrition.
But he HAD TO ADMIT that he respected and admired her for guts in doing a Daniel act, and facing the lions like himself
At that point, non-violence in the climate debate was born. For Willis had realized that BAD people are not necessarily all bad.
There might even be some purpose in talking to them!”
Mr Ravetz, why assign to people things you can not know if they did not state it. You have no idea if Willis LOATHED and DESPISED her, or simply did not approve of certain things she previously stated and actions she took. Willis did not HAVE TO ADMIT, anything, he chose, as he usually does, to be honest and up front in his thoughts. I also think that Willis has for a long time had the maturity to understand that “BAD people are not necessarily all bad. There might even be some purpose in talking to them.” I find your entire paragraph here to be presumptive, condescending and overly sarcastic.
Mr Mosher, your example to Willis, where he inserted an edit to show that some of his comments were not meant personally to Dr Curry but were directed at the state of climate science in general, missed the mark. Why? Because everything Dr Ravets stated in this paragraph can not be taken in any other way but personally.
eadler says:
February 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm
The history of the idea of global warming shows that the science is not political. It dates back to England in 1859, when John Tyndall determined…
Thanks for the “history” lesson on the birth of the greenhouse effect. But see, where you and all your climate troll buddies go wrong is that no one disputes that there is a greenhouse effect, so it’s a complete straw man on your part. It is interesting and revealing that you feel the need to go back in time over a century and a half to “show” that the modern-day hysteria about “carbon” which only really began about 30 years ago is not political.
As for your statement that 97% of active climate scientists accept AGW, because the evidence for it is compelling allow me to deconstruct that bit of nonsense for you. First, surely you realize that it is simply a blatant and illogical Appeal to
Consensus as well as an Appeal to Authority. Secondly, the poll itself is a politically-motivated one, in which 75 of 77 actively publishing climate scietists agreed that “human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures”. Wow, a grand total of 75 “scientists” whose careers are based on pushing the CAGW/CC myth. Amazing. And not even any mention of “carbon” either, just “human activity”.
Most of the skeptical arguments have actually been knocked down in the peer reviewed literature, but most of the skeptics don’t seem to know this.
By “peer reviewed”, you mean of course pal reviewed, by “scientists” with a definite stake in keeping the CAGW/CC/etc. myth alive. In any case mostly what they “knock down” are straw men they conveniently erect for that purpose, since they aren’t really interested in either science or truth, but simply furthering their own careers.
Your condescending and patronizing attitude both towards the lowly public as well as skeptics/climate realists is duly noted. It’s an interesting way upon which to base a “civil” discussion, but different strokes. Have a nice day.
eadler,
you say “If you reduce the required statistical uncertainty to a few percent below 95%, you will conclude that there has been warming.”
Which means, I suppose, that if we are allowed to make a statement not supported by the measurements, there has been warming.
You then say, “In addition if you take out the natural exogenous factors such as El Nino’s and volcanoes, there has been a consistent and significant warming trend.”
If I understand you, you are saying if it wasn’t getting cooler it would be getting warmer.
You then go on to say “The models also show that without GHG emissions by humans, the temperature increase of the past 40 years cannot be accounted for.”
Yes, models predict . . . we don’t know why . . . can’t account for, etc.
Sounds like real solid science to me. How could I have ever been sceptical?
Vince;
Please keep in mind, also, that the whole “95%” standard is an outrage. It is a grossly inadequate filter for the problems in maintaining reliability and validity of a complex science. From data snooping to statistical “correlation shopping” to publication bias to …
Only the mushiest of soft sciences rely on such weak testing. Physics is not one of them.
eadler,
“The models also show that without GHG emissions by humans, the temperature increase of the past 40 years cannot be accounted for.”
Did you realize that your reference relied upon the Third Assessment Report? In any case I couldn’t find support for that statement in the ch 12 that they referenced. My recollection of past statements is that they usually bundle the anthropogenic forcings, chiefly CO2 and aerosols. The model diagnostics are much improved in the FAR, and the intermodel comparisons show that nearly all the model differences in climate sensitivity while “matching” the 20th century is due to the leeway allowed by the uncertainty in anthropogenic aerosol forcing. Those models could probably match the temperature increase with aerosols and solar, and probably even with aerosols alone.
Thanks, mosh, your thoughts are always interesting.
steven mosher says:
February 23, 2011 at 3:56 am
So you are saying that all Jerry meant was that ” Even though Willis loathes Judith for X Y and Z, he does compliment her.”
Y’know, if I had ever loathed or even disliked Judith, I suppose that would make sense. But I don’t. I respect and admire Judith, although I often disagree with her. I interacted with her for quite a while on ClimateAudit before I first wrote for WUWT. My interactions with her have always been positive and cordial. She, alone among climate scientists, invited Steve McIntyre to come and address her class at Georgia. I have lauded her publicly for years for this and for her other actions in support of honest science. She is a beacon in the field.
So everything that Jerry is going on about how I changed, or how I loathed Judith but still I’m cordial with her, is just Jerry’s fantasies. They have nothing to do with reality.
For Jerry to publicly promote this twisted and groundless interpretation of me and my motives and my actions is absolutely unacceptable to me. It also exhibits an appalling lack of awareness and very poor character judgement on his part … I’m not exactly known for ignoring egregious misrepresentations of my character, I suppose “prickly on the subject” might be accurate .
Finally, it was entirely gratuitous, in that the subject of his post was his Lisbon lecture. I had nothing to do with either Lisbon or his lecture. Since his was not a hasty post, doesn’t he even do the simplest cost-benefit analysis of the development of the theme? I cut out entire sections if I think there’s a chance they’ll distract from what I have to say, or are not crucial to my exposition.
So why would he invite problems by speculating on, of all poor choices available, someone’s motives and judgements? I mean, that’s beyond klutzy, that’s fail-blog social malfunction.
My words are often misunderstood, despite my earnest efforts towards clarity. I often have to issue clarifications. If Jerry wants to offer one, I’m more than happy to listen. I don’t think he’s a bad guy.
“Evil” is a word that I almost never use, unless I’m discussing the use of the word. It is not a useful word to me because it is far too emotionally loaded, and subject to too many widely varying interpretations. For me, if I were forced to define it, I’d say that Genghis Khan was brutal and cruel, and that Dr. Mengele was evil. I would also say it was unlikely Mengele was completely evil. He probably could not conceive of treating puppies like he treated people. But beyond that, further deponent sayeth not …
So the idea that I need to acknowledge that “we are not completely evil” is laughable. I hold an idea that is at the extreme opposite of the spectrum. I say that evil as I understand it is extremely rare among humans, and that the seven deadly sins and all of their cousins are extremely common, particularly if we include cerebral density on the list.
In addition, I hold that among the various sins, that “noble cause corruption” and desire for public recognition and laziness and stupidity and willful misunderstanding and the like are far more common than bad intent. I don’t think that Phil Jones is motivated by a desire to twist the climate record, for example. I do think that noble cause corruption has impelled him to avoid unpleasant questions, and that a generally loose attitude towards data integrity pushed him to conceal the poor record-keeping by avoiding my FOI request.
But in no case do I consider him evil, or even with bad intentions. If he were, this would be much easier. He’s just another fool like me, with good intentions. Unfortunately, his led him seriously astray. By a series of imperceptible steps, none of them visibly wrong, he wandered afar in the fog to a point where he was advising people to destroy evidence that was the subject of an FOI request …
This is my basic assumption about almost all of the Climategate “un-indicted co-conspirators”, to use the lovely Nixonian phrase. I assume they are all victims of noble cause corruption, where you believe in something so strongly and the aim (saving us from Thermageddon) is so noble that any actions can be justified.
Michael Mann is a bit different, in that we know he withheld extremely serious adverse results when publishing the “Hockeystick” paper … but again, he was a new PhD who saw a world of fame beckoning if his results didn’t show the Medieval Warm Period. I have much more disdain for his actions once he was caught with his hand in the scientific cookie jar than I do for his scientific malfeasance itself. So I would say again not evil or bad, just a tragic figure seduced by a desire for scientific acclaim and a wish to “save the planet”.
So I fear that I do “miss the key point” if it involves the idea that “people are not entirely evil”, that concept is imcomprehensible in my world view …
Thanks,
w.
Martin Lewitt says:
February 23, 2011 at 7:48 am
eadler,
“The models also show that without GHG emissions by humans, the temperature increase of the past 40 years cannot be accounted for.”
Did you realize that your reference relied upon the Third Assessment Report? In any case I couldn’t find support for that statement in the ch 12 that they referenced. My recollection of past statements is that they usually bundle the anthropogenic forcings, chiefly CO2 and aerosols. The model diagnostics are much improved in the FAR, and the intermodel comparisons show that nearly all the model differences in climate sensitivity while “matching” the 20th century is due to the leeway allowed by the uncertainty in anthropogenic aerosol forcing. Those models could probably match the temperature increase with aerosols and solar, and probably even with aerosols alone.
The link on the Skeptical Science web site is broken. You are correct about the graphs coming from the 3rd IPCC report. Here is a working link.
http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_tar/?src=/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/figspm-4.htm
The attribution part of AR4 is stated in a table, which contains links to detailed analysis and similar diagrams to those in AR3 above, with even more detail including regional breakdowns.
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-7.html#table-9-4
Since the aerosals alone would create a cooling trend, and the anthropogenic emission of GHG’s create the main warming trend, the aerosals couldn’t be responsible for warming, despite the uncertainty in trend that you mention.
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/figure-9-9.html
Bruce Cobb says:
February 23, 2011 at 5:13 am
eadler says:
February 22, 2011 at 6:11 pm
The history of the idea of global warming shows that the science is not political. It dates back to England in 1859, when John Tyndall determined…
Thanks for the “history” lesson on the birth of the greenhouse effect. But see, where you and all your climate troll buddies go wrong is that no one disputes that there is a greenhouse effect, so it’s a complete straw man on your part. It is interesting and revealing that you feel the need to go back in time over a century and a half to “show” that the modern-day hysteria about “carbon” which only really began about 30 years ago is not political.
There are skeptics who deny the existence of the greenhouse effect, even though you may not.
The point that I made, which was accurate, the idea of global warming was developed by climate scientists based on well established physics, and was not related to politics at all. In fact until the development of computer programs which provided detailed regional climate information some scientists thought that warming due to GHG’s would be beneficial. The political backlash came after publication of the scientific results.
As for your statement that 97% of active climate scientists accept AGW, because the evidence for it is compelling allow me to deconstruct that bit of nonsense for you. First, surely you realize that it is simply a blatant and illogical Appeal to
Consensus as well as an Appeal to Authority.
Appeal to authority is a valid argument, if the authority is based on expertise. It is better than relying on the opinion of the general public. .
Secondly, the poll itself is a politically-motivated one, in which 75 of 77 actively publishing climate scietists agreed that “human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures”. Wow, a grand total of 75 “scientists” whose careers are based on pushing the CAGW/CC myth. Amazing. And not even any mention of “carbon” either, just “human activity”.
Darwin’s theory of evolution is the basis of biology. There may be only one research biologist in the world who doubts it, and he is often quoted by those who believe in some form of Godly intervention. Such people would be well advised to be guided by the consensus of professional research biologists, despite the fact that they earn a living, and their careers are based on the theory of evolution…. or maybe you believe that evolution is a myth that biologists are just cashing in on, and Intelligent Design, or biblical creation are the real means of creation of different life forms.
There were two polls of research scientists, one by Doran, and one by Pielke and Annan; and both got a result of 97% . The statistical confidence interval is only a few percent around this number.
eadler says:
“Most of the skeptical arguments have actually been knocked down in the peer reviewed literature, but most of the skeptics don’t seem to know this.”
By “peer reviewed”, you mean of course pal reviewed, by “scientists” with a definite stake in keeping the CAGW/CC/etc. myth alive. In any case mostly what they “knock down” are straw men they conveniently erect for that purpose, since they aren’t really interested in either science or truth, but simply furthering their own careers.
Your condescending and patronizing attitude both towards the lowly public as well as skeptics/climate realists is duly noted. It’s an interesting way upon which to base a “civil” discussion, but different strokes. Have a nice day.
I am not condescending or patronizing at all. I cite scientific literature and historical facts that you ignore. Your main argument seems to be that the scientists are all liars. That way you can ignore the scientific work that has been done on the subject, and not bother to reply to the historical or scientific arguments.
eadler says: (February 22, 2011 at 6:38 am)
I am resigned to the invective that will come my way if this gets posted by the moderator.
That remark is insulting to the moderators, Anthony, and the readership here, eadler, all of whom welcome balanced opinion — which your post is.
eadler,
You couldn’t get 97% of biologists to agree that bears crap in the woods. Quit trying to peddle that 97% nonsense.
[snip – rambling, off topic, insulting – Anthony]