
Guest post by Dr. Jerome Ravetz
While the micro-bureaucracy of the Lisbon workshop bureaucracy grinds its way towards the release of a statement, I realise that the time is long overdue for me to touch base at WUWT.
After all, it was at WUWT (with the help of Rog Tallbloke) that I made my debut on the blogosphere, and enjoyed the reaction of hundreds of readers, be they enthusiastic or vitriolic. Also, it was on WUWT that I had the first experience of seeing non-violent communication in the Climategate debate. The circumstances were surprising, for it involved our very own fire-eating champion Willis.
He was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition. But he had to admit that he respected and admired her for guts in doing a Daniel act, and facing the lions like himself. At that point, non-violence in the climate debate was born. For Willis had realised that bad people are not necessarily all bad. There might even be some purpose in talking to them! From that point on, WUWT could take the lead in enforcing civility in the debate, and I am very pleased to see how the principle has spread all across the lines.
Reflecting on that incident, I began to shape up ideas for the workshop that eventually took place last month. Of course it was highly imperfect, with many things done and not done in error. But what was remarkable was the universal spirit of accomplishment, even delight, that people were getting on so well and so productively. Of course, this depended to some extent on our choice of invitations; we did get close to the edge of the zone on the spectrum within in which people would be sure to be reasonably civil to each other. On that first meeting, with so much other learning to do, it would not have been productive to have explosions of mutual insults. Another time, we could try to take on that one as well.
I suppose people know that I went to a Quaker college, Swarthmore, and I have spent all the years afterwards making sense of its message of nonviolence. In a course on political science I read ‘The Power of Non-Violence’ by Richard Gregg. It struck me as very sweet but quite unrealistic. Between then and now was Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, and now Tunisia, Egypt and beyond. It seems that a group of non-violent activists in Serbia had used a book by one of Gregg’s followers, Gene Sharp. They had passed the message to a study group in Qatar, and it was picked up by the activists in Tunisia and Egypt to become the basis of their strategy. The rest is history in the making. There is at last some chance that revolutions now will not simply produce new tyrannies. All this gives support to my conviction that we were correct in making the main purpose of the Lisbon workshop to further the development of non-violence in scientific debate.
My principle has always been that you don’t know what the other person is going through, and to return their violence doesn’t help them resolve their conflict of conscience. It’s so easy to condemn the evil ones and try to destroy them; that way we would still have the sectarian killings in Northern Ireland and probably a bloodbath in South Africa. On the personal level, who would have known that the slave-trader John Newton was being prepared for the experience that would eventually lead him to compose ‘Amazing Grace’?
With those words of explanation, I offer my Lisbon public lecture to Anthony Watts for debate on WUWT. This, I believe is the essence of the Lisbon story, rather than who said what about whom. Willis – over to you!
==================================================================
Non-Violence in Science?
Jerome Ravetz,
‘Reconciliation in the Climate Change Debate’
Public Meeting at the Gulbenkian Foundation
Lisbon 28 January 2011
People attending this conference might find the whole idea of non-violence in science to be strange. We are familiar, by now, with the use of reconciliation and non-violence to resolve intractable disputes in the political sphere. Indeed, it is now generally accepted that this is the only way to achieve a lasting and just settlement in conflicts between peoples. It worked in South Africa and in Northern Ireland, and noone with standing in the international community argues for a different approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict. But science? What possible relevance could this approach have to science?
Debate, sometimes fierce and impassioned, is the lifeblood of science. The advances of science do not occur smoothly and by consensus. There are always at least two sides to the interpretation of new theories and results. Social researchers have found that each scientific side explains its own attitudes in methodological terms, and explains the attitudes of the opposition in sociological terms. Roughly speaking, “I” am being a scientist, and “They” are being – something else. All this is quite natural and inevitable, and it has been that way from the beginning.
The process does not work perfectly. There is no ‘hidden hand’ that guides scientists quickly and correctly to the right answer. There can be injustices and losses; great innovators can languish in obscurity for a lifetime, because their theories were too discordant with the prevailing paradigm or ‘tacit knowledge’. However, to the best of our knowledge, the correct understanding does eventually emerge, thanks to the normal processes of debate and to the plurality of locations and voices in any field of science.
Why, then, have we organised a scientific conference about reconciliation, where we have actually had instruction in the theory and practice of ‘Non-Violent Communication’? Do we really need to import the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi into the conduct of science? We believe that on this occasion we do. This conference has not been about science in general, or any old field of science. The focus has been on Climate Change, and in particular the rancour that has been released by the ‘Climategate’ emails from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England.
This debate has not just been about the science of climate change It also concerns policy, for reducing the emissions of Carbon Dioxide worldwide. This requires a very large, complex and expensive project. It extends into lifestyles and values, as the transition out of a carbon-based economy will require a change in our ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life. There are urgent issues of equity, both between rich and poor peoples now, and also between ourselves and our descendants. All these profound issues depend for their resolution on an adequate basis in science. Some say, if we are not really sure that bad things are happening, why bother imposing these drastic and costly changes on the world’s people? But others reply, by what right can we use scientific uncertainty as an excuse for failing to protect ourselves and our descendants from irreversible catastrophe?
Both of those positions accept that there is a real debate about the strength of the science, and effectively argue about the proper burden of proof, or degree of precaution that is justified. But there are plenty of voices on the extremes. For quite some time, the official scientific establishments, particularly in the Anglophone world, claimed that ‘the science is settled’, and ‘the debate is over’. At the opposite extreme are those, including some quite reputable scientists, who argue that nothing whatever has been proved about the long-term changes in climate that might be resulting from the current increase in the concentration of Carbon Dioxide. Between these extremes, the explanations of opposing views are not merely sociological. They become political and moral. Each side accuses the other of being corrupt. The ‘skeptics’ or ‘deniers’ are dismissed as either working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists. In short, as being either prostitutes or cranks. In their turn, the ‘alarmists’ or ‘warmistas’ are accused of feathering their own nests as grant-gaining entrepreneurial scientists, playing along with their own dishonest ideological politicians. In their protestations of scientific objectivity, they are accused of the corruptions of hypocrisy.
In the classic philosophy of science, it was imagined that debates would be settled by a ‘crucial experiment’. The observations made by Eddington in 1919 confirmed Einstein’s general theory of relativity, tout court. Before that, Rutherford showed that the atom is nearly all empty space, with a massive nucleus and planetary electrons circling it. Such crisp, clean experiments are taken as characteristic of natural science, establishing its status as solid knowledge, superior to the mere opinions of the social sciences and humanities. Where such crucial experiments happen not to occur, as in the case of Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection, it is assumed that they would occur if we could devise them. For that is the essence of science.
When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced. Suffice to say that the application of the Arrhenius model to the actual conditions on earth, including all the effects that could modify the entry and exit of radiant energy, plus the storage of heat in the oceans, leaves plenty of room for debate for those that want it. And the Mauna Loa data extend only over a half-century; extrapolating that backwards or forward is again not entirely straightforward.
Hence the climate science debate is one where all the features that make natural science different from sociology, or indeed from politics, are weakened or absent. And in the course of that debate we have discovered a serious flaw in the prevailing philosophy of science: there is no explanation of honest error. Students of science never see a failed experiment or a mistaken theory; for them it is success and truth all the way. Only those who have done truly innovative research discover how intimately are success and failure, truth and error, connected. And so when a scientist finds him- or herself convinced of the truth of a particular theory, they have no framework for treating their erring opponent with respect. “I” am right, “you” are wrong, and by persisting in your error you demonstrate that your failings are moral as well as intellectual. In the ordinary course of scientific debate such attitudes are kept under control, but in the total, complex climate science debate they come to dominate.
The debate has passed its peak of intensity, as the failure of Copenhagen has taken the impetus out of the policy drive. But the rancour and bitterness are unresolved. There has been some softening of attitudes about the issue of global warming, but (so far as I can see) little softening of emotions about past adversaries. It is for that reason that my colleagues and I have made this unusual experiment, if you wish bringing Gandhi to science or even science to Gandhi. As we planned it, our hopes were modest indeed. We could not imagine attracting people with very hardened views on the other side. We know that political negotiations begin with intermediaries, then perhaps progress to members in adjacent rooms, eventually have principals all ensconced in a secret location, and only when it is all over do they meet in public. Of course people don’t trust and respect each other at the start; and they themselves are distrusted by their own side even for dealing with the enemy. Only gradually, with many fits and false starts, is trust built up.
So for our first little experiment, we brought together people who would at least talk to those we brought with opposing views. And of course, what is essential in such activities, all who are there agree that this is an important venture. When we saw how some very busy people have enthusiastically agreed to come from very long distances, we felt that this venture is indeed worthwhile. Of course we hope that by its success it will lead to others. We do not at all intend to ‘solve’ the climate science debate, or to reach a consensus on whether we must now mount a global campaign against Carbon Dioxide. That is to be left to other forums, organised from within the appropriate scientific institutions. If we can only get people talking, and eventually framing particular scientific questions on which agreement could in principle be reached, that will have been as great a success as we could hope for.
We would also like such a venture as this to be an example of the power of non-violence, even in science. The great culture heroes of the last half-century have been defined by non-violence: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, and now Aung San Suu Kyi. They all paid a price for their convictions, sometimes a heavy one. We note that none were white men, and none were scientists. This is not to say that non-violence has been totally absent from science. We all know of Einstein and his ambivalent relation to warfare; and there is the late Sir Joseph Rotblat, who gave up a career in science to found the Pugwash movement for East-West dialogue during the cold war. But if we search for scientists who have really lived out their non-violent convictions, we find two nonwhite women: Wangerai Maathai and Vandana Shiva.
That reflection brings me to the state of science itself. Those of an older generation remember a time when the prestige of science was unquestioned. Science would save the world, and scientists would do the saving. It is all different now, and the mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate have not helped. One of the most important influences that drove me to a personal involvement in this debate was a report by our distinguished colleague Judith Curry, of a conversation with a student. This student was dismayed by the Climategate story that had just broken, and wondered whether this was the sort of career that she wanted to take up. We all know what happens to institutions when they fail to attract the brightest and the best young people. Slowly, perhaps, but surely, they atrophy and wither.
You see the connection. If ‘science’ comes to be seen by young people as the sort of institution where Climategate happens, and where scientists insult and condemn each other, its future is not bright. Of course, this negative reaction would happen only at the margins; but it is at the margins where we will find the really wonderful young people that we need. I cannot prescribe, indeed I can scarcely imagine, how the spirit of non-violence that has inspired the political world can be imported effectively into science. But I would argue that it is an attempt that is well worth making, even for the future of science itself.
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One final comment.
The author says: “If ‘science’ comes to be seen by young people as the sort of institution where Climategate happens, and where scientists insult and condemn each other, its future is not bright.”
That might be so, if “young people” were all total wusses.
Some people enjoy a good fight.
old engineer says: (February 21, 2011 at 6:33 pm)
Thank You Dr. Ravetz for your efforts. As you can see from the comments to your post, convincing people that non-violent communications is the way to move forward, is as hard as convincing the alarmists that there should be discussions about their conclusions.
I’ll call you on that, old engineer. No one on this thread has disagreed with that as a concept. It is the presumption that such a call even needs making to us which sticks in the craw.
And a p.s. to Dr. Jerome Ravetz regarding his words: “including some quite reputable scientists,”
Do you really believe it is possible to qualify “reputable” with “quite”?
I found it offensive.
Reading through the comments here only serves to reinforce the feelings and thoughts I had as I headed to Lisbon. Over the course of the past 4 years I’ve said the following in a variety of forms, so if you’ve read it before I apologize.
It begins with the announcement that “the debate is over.” This was perhaps the most unfortunate piece of rhetoric that those of us who believe in AGW ever spouted. When you announce that “the debate is over” you set in motion an ineluctable sequence of moves. That chain ends in the application of power and even violent force. When you declare the debate over you are signaling people that it is time to stop talking and to take action. Anyone who talks after this pronouncement has to be ostrasized and silenced. At first the attacks amount to a recitation of the debate. “don’t you know, xyz.” Then if people persist, the tactic changes to isolation. “everyone agrees that xyz.” Then if people still persist the attacks become personalized. They will attack your intelligence. Then they will attack your motives, especially if you are intelligent. That is the “moral” turn. Once that signpost is passed, the attacks will escalate. They will ridicule you. Insult you. Then they will suggest that you are criminal. And then they will claim that you are a monster commanding death trains. That pathway from ignorant, to uneducatable, to evil, to criminal to monster is a pathway to justifying violence. The next step down the road is fantasizing violence. We saw this with the 10:10 video.
When Dr. Ravetz speaks of violence in the climate debate it resonates with me because I see where these words and metaphors lead to. No one would suggest putting a person on trial for simply being wrong about C02. But we’ve seen those words written about those who question climate science. And let’s not pretend that Jones and Mann and Santer have not received hate mail. The debate has gotten “violent”. I’m sure that some who believe in AGW would take issue with me tracing it back to “the debate is over” And predicatably people on both sides will get into a debate of “who threw the first punch.” Those dialogs go nowhere. Those dialogs widen the chasm. Given the current state of the debate it’s clear to me that we’ve reached a state where both sides are ready to apply force or power to settle matters.
One side wants to take action on the climate now and the other side wants to exert power by defunding science.
To a certain extent those of us who attended the conference realized that the two sides cannot even speak to each other any more. They talk past each other. There is no debate. Not because the issue isnt debatable, but because the fight has become intensely personal. Look around WUWT. It wasn’t long ago that people from both sides would actually come on and try to have a civilized (sometimes) debate. Now, it reminds me more of RC and preaching to the choir. We invite in Ravetz and almost no one searches for the points of agreement. The comments degenerate into drive by slams, personal attacks, political screeds, one liners. blah blah blah. (And yes in the past I’ve done these things as well.)
Ravetz’ idea, the idea of the conference, evolved into something very modest. Making a space where a dialog between those willing to talk could happen. So, I met tallbloke and we came to some personal agreements about how to treat each other. Maybe that will spread. There were others there as well committed to finding some kind of common ground. Not agreement on the science, but rather some agreement on how we speak to each other. Now finding common ground is not sexy. Personally I do better at flame throwing than bridge building, but I think its worth trying something different. Simply, I don’t want to trust the outcome of this debate to raw power.
As an exercise read what ravetz or I have written and try to find the common ground. Anyone can say “no” to my “yes”.
– – – – –
Theo Goodwin,
If you don’t mind, please advise what tradition, if any, does Quine come from in the philosophy of science and history of science?
I would like a little more appetizer and aperitif (spelling?) on Quine before buying to his main course.
John
Dr. Ravetz,
Two things. First, I think it would help to define terms. Tallbloke quoted this saying from Lisbon:
“We are not here to force a compromise. We are here to provide a space where the fight can take place in civility.”
Can you define civility and its opposite for us? Perhaps give us some examples we should follow and to avoid?
For example, was it wrong for Douglas Keenan to point out some scientific claims made about data were not true and to press his allegations of academic misconduct against a climate researcher? Or was he right to do what he did? Isn’t the incivility the trampling of the standards of science Keenan was complaining about?
Another example, when McIntyre learned Michael Mann had run the r2 verification statistic on his temperature reconstruction and then hid that fact it failed, was the civil thing to sweep it under the rug? Or was McIntyre correct to expose Mann’s actions?
When O’Donnell outed Steig as Reviewer A, was that wrong? Or was it the proper course of action since Steig had acted as he had?
Does civility and incivility relate to actions or is it limited to the name-calling: denier, alarmist, etc?
Perhaps you will claim that you cannot get involved in individual cases. But if your approach is going to bear any fruit in the real world, we need some practical advice on what it means to fight in civility. As far as I know, you have never weighed in on any of the major battlefields of academic misconduct and assaults on the standards of science which are part of the climate science debate.
Second, as you may or may not know, I recently proposed here on WUWT a major assessment report as an alternative and competitor to the IPCC’s upcoming AR5. See http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/13/a-modest-proposal-in-lieu-of-disbanding-the-ipcc/
I have contacted a few climate scientists. Several of them are interested in being a part of this effort. However, some have indicated they think it should be sponsored by some scientific society or organization instead of an ad hoc approach.
What do you think of the idea? Do you know of any organization that might be willing to compete with the IPCC?
He [Willis] was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition.
Crawling in full contrition, indeed! Why would the one who has even called himself “Willis The Merciless” be placated by a mere apology? That is, until the glorious arrival on Earth of The Post Normals!
“This requires a very large, complex and expensive project. It extends into lifestyles and values, as the transition out of a carbon-based economy will require a change in our ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life.”
A transition out of a carbon-based economy is just a little change in our “ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life”?
Is that it? Is that non-violent, civil discussion? Did we just “non-violently” describe our own private property, personal transportation, food prices, and electricity rates, and water usage? Is that how we word things to “avoid extremes”?
I don’t feel very “respected” by that wording at all, by the way. In fact, that’s not very far short of slapping someone in the face.
I don’t have the mastery of the English language to elicit the nuances of this posting by Ravetz, numerous posters have already done that.
But via my laymans language may I just say to Ravetz “mate, you’re up yourself and you obviously don’t understand Willis at all. Have you even tried?”
Having followed most of Willises postings both here and at C Audit and C Etc, I can say Willis has a lot more respect for Curry than you think. I also suspect he has zero respect for you and your kind, but I’m sure Willis will be along any time now to let you know himself.
What Willis doesn’t have for you or Curry or the many others in the climate game is TRUST.
I’m afraid this post by you will have only confirmed that.
p.s. being an educated man (there is a whole new story there) you surely are aware of the condescending tone of your post. To that this layman says…. “Get stuffed mate.”
steven mosher says:
February 21, 2011 at 9:59 pm
——–
Steven Mosher,
I can see the sincerity in your words. Thank you for framing the context in your very experienced view.
I think the common ground has to be at some fundamental level or it will not hold. I think it only exists in the solemn starkness of what is unemotional rational independent thought. That area were men & women of ruthless logic are “bending over backwards**” to show openly to everyone how they can be wrong about their science. Common ground might exist if that commitment is sworn to.
I see it as an analogous situation to West Point (US Military Academy), the common ground can only work with a voluntary code of honor existing among gentlemen and gentlewomen. Find such scientists & independent thinkers then a common ground is possible.
That is a hard hurdle, but such people need to step forward without hindrance of the past.
** Feynman
John
I don’t know which sports exalt the referees above the players, but this prolix, bombastic and narcissistic self-congratulation appears to me as an attempt to preempt a cause in which the preacher has not taken part.
You can’t fix the drains without shovelling s.. s… sententious smuggery.
Apologies for the incivility, it’s not personal.
Steven Mosher:
No.
Resounding, unequivocal NO.
First, the AGW hoaxers must pay back all the money they’ve stolen.
Second, they must apologize, profusely and publicly, before everyone they persecuted and insulted.
Third, they must retire en masse, to open their professional field and scientific publications to honest scientists.
Fourth, the worst hoaxers who caused immeasurable damage to the economy and to the education of children, such as Al Gore, Hansen, and other political activists of the green movement, must stand trial.
Then, maybe, we could start talking about being civil to them.
Jerry, you say:
Jerry, I greatly enjoy the fact that in addition to being the developer of PNS, you are now a mind reader. But you are just too good at it, it disturbs me that despite my trying to conceal it, you can discern among my respect for Judith a couple of other things that even I hadn’t noticed, that I loathe and despise her …
Have you totally lost the plot? I don’t “loathe” Judith for anything, that’s your sick fantasy. Nor do I “despise” her for anything. Are you off of your meds or something? Judith has acted honorably throughout, and I have been very clear in saying that about her. I think she’s wrong about how to cure the loss of trust in climate science, I disagree with her on many issues, but I respect and admire her. She’s got more balls than most of the men in the field, I say, you go, girl!
I gotta say, Jerry, that you could not have made a worse start as far as I’m concerned. You stand up and accuse me, without a scrap of evidence, without a shred of a quotation or a citation, of loathing and despising a woman I have nothing but respect for, Judith Curry … and then you go on to say:
Oh, osculate my fundament, Jerry, that is just pure sleazy nastiness wrapped up in sickly-sweet sugar. You are seriously attempting to patronize me, you tragic victim of cerebral elephantiasis? You try to point out how much I have learned as though you can read my thoughts? No, I didn’t think that she should come “crawling to WUWT in full contrition”, that’s straight out of Kraft-Ebbing, you should get professional help for those kind of projective fantasies. Or perhaps the old-timers were right and your humors must contain an excess of bile if you think those kind of things, but in any case that’s not a thought I’ve ever entertained about anyone. I don’t want to see people crawl, I want to see them fly.
Nor did I suddenly “realize that bad people are not necessarily all bad”, I’ve known that for years, although I admit your idea of “good” is more harmful than most people’s “bad”. I also did not have a revelation that ” there might be some purpose in talking to them!”, with or without an exclamation mark. You remember all those years when the climate scientists had you totally sucked in, fooled, and bamboozled? I’ve been trying to talk to climate scientists since way back then, I more than most people know that there is a purpose in doing that.
Jerry, if you truly, really think that Post-Normal Science is a valuable idea, the best thing that you could possibly do is never write another word. You are such an unpleasant cloacal annulus that every time you open your mouth, you set the course of Post-Normal Science back by at least a decade.
Which is why I welcome your posting here, and am overjoyed to see you again, because when you start out like that, the upside is close to 100% …
w.
Chris D. says:
February 21, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Yeah, Chris D., I did say kill the IPCC. I also said we should drive an aspen stake through its heart at midnight and stuff its skull with garlic and scatter the remains so it never rises again.
Now, I understand that it’s not politically correct and more than that, it’s actually dangerous to say that, because someone like Chris might never have heard of “metaphor” and think it was serious, and then they might actually stuff the IPCC’s skull with garlic, and that would be a global tragedy …
Chris, there’s bigger issues here. You might attend to them with profit.
w.
Atomic Hairdryer says (February 21, 2011 at 5:29 pm): … In my simplistic view, ‘post normal science’ is part of getting science to climb out of it’s [sic] ivory tower and understand the way the world really works. …
Unfortunately, post-normal science (PNS) achieves precisely the opposite of Atomic Hairdryer’s suggestion. By severing the link between science and evidence, PNS destroys our understanding of “the way the world really works.”
“Global warming” / “global climate change” / “climate disruption” is a perfect example of how a “science” that refuses to base its decisions on the evidence corrupts the scientific enterprise. The result is confusion and doubt, not expanded knowledge.
The unraveling of the supposed warming in New Zealand is just one example among many of the deleterious effect PNS has had on our accumulation of knowledge. After a couple of decades of baseless adjustments that created a warming trend out of whole cloth, the house of cards collapsed. There are similar houses of cards found wherever hokey team climatologists hold sway. They, too, are beginning to totter. The net result is that we’ve wasted two decades and more (and tens of billions of taxpayer dollars) chasing will-o’-the-wisps.
In the end, those who espouse PNS are unlikely to live their lives entirely by its tenets. Consider a commonplace item, the airplane. Suppose a company you’ve never heard of announces that it’s going to build an airplane to compete with Airbus and Boeing. When it’s rolled out for its first passenger-carrying flight, the company proudly announces that this will be its very first flight ever — rather than take it up for test flights, the manufacturer modeled each and every characteristic of the plane and is absolutely certain that the design is perfect.
Would you be willing to fly on the very first flight of an airplane design that was entirely the result of model calculations, without any real-world testing? I wouldn’t! We don’t know enough about the real world to model it perfectly. The design and the plane itself would have to be tested thoroughly before it could be trusted.
PNS adherents, on the other hand, should be perfectly willing to take the first flight on a plane whose design is entirely untested. After all, that’s what they’re asking us to do with their nostrums for “saving the planet,” which will have results far more catastrophic than the results of the crash of a single untested airplane.
Do you note that I’m being consistent? I don’t trust untested theories and I don’t trust untested airplanes. It would be interesting to know if Dr. Ravetz would also be consistent, trusting both untested theories and untested airplanes. (Dollars to doughnuts [nowhere near as good a deal as when I was a boy], Dr. Ravetz will fail the consistency test.)
steven mosher says:
February 21, 2011 at 9:59 pm
As an apparently bona-fide skeptical, racist, pedophile denier – according to the latest diatribe from your AGW fraudster bed-fellows may I be one of the first to offer a resounding “NO!!” to your “yes” – since you offered.
You quote a plethora of misdeeds then try to pretend it is behavior both “sides” have indulged in.
Quote: “It starts with the debate is over”. Maybe – but can you name a skeptic who ever said that?
Quote: “Then if people persist, the tactic changes to isolation. “everyone agrees that xyz.” Then if people still persist the attacks become personalized. They will attack your intelligence. Then they will attack your motives, especially if you are intelligent. That is the “moral” turn. Once that signpost is passed, the attacks will escalate. They will ridicule you. Insult you. Then they will suggest that you are criminal. And then they will claim that you are a monster commanding death trains. That pathway from ignorant, to uneducatable, to evil, to criminal to monster is a pathway to justifying violence. The next step down the road is fantasizing violence. We saw this with the 10:10 video.”
True. You want to give us some examples of skeptics indulging in these practices? You want to remind us of the skeptical equivalent of the 10:10 video or anything like it?
You want to refresh our collective memories of the skeptical equivalent “trapped polar bears”, or the “polar bears dropping from the sky”, or the Greenpeace videos featuring children threatening and beating up “unbeliever” adults?
Or claims we “unbelieving deniers” are mentally ill and belong in a psychiatric ward? Or that there should be “Nuremberg-style” trials for “deniers”?
I became involved in this so-called “debate” way back in the mid-Eighties. In the intervening years I have been vilified in the media and in Parliament; been subjected to a concerted campaign by a major church; lost contracts for work; had my business destroyed, and had my family threatened with everything from being beaten to death with iron bars to having our house torched while we slept.
Prior to going into semi-retirement in the late Nineties I was featured on the cover of “Time” Magazine as the “most dangerous extremist threat Australia had ever seen”; my home was raided and ransacked by police on three occasions; I (successfully) defended myself in court six times against everything from producing kiddie-porn to the late return of a motor vehicle licence plate.
You want to name just one “warmist” with that kind of vilification record?
Mr Mosher – there IS no “common ground” between those of us interested in the truth and armed only with the scientific method and observable fact, against those interested only in a political agenda of “what best for the rest of us” and armed with the full weight of the MSM, politicians, the law enforcement agencies, a totally corrupted education system, well-funded advocacy groups, and – to date – some $70 billion in taxpayer’s funds for “research” into predetermined conclusions.
Besides – as I pointed out to Dr Ravetz earlier – this is all pointless. The battle is over. Your side won. Now millions are going to die and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Precisely as planned.
You and Ravetz and Curry and the rest should be out partying in the streets.
Never in the history of human endeavor, have so few been responsible for the ultimate deaths of so many with as little personal effort and sacrifice.
Not to mention, when the time comes, plausible deniability.
OK, now that I got that off my chest, let me deal with what Jerry said.
He said that he is coming here as an advocate of Gandhi and of ahimsa or non-violence, I presume as exemplified by his vicious and unprovoked attack on me in the first paragraph. I mean, there was no reason to mention me at all, this could have been all about Lisbon and non-violence. But in the spirit of communication and non-violence, he decided to take a swipe at me on the way to talking about non-violence.
Rats, there I go, I’ve digressed from what he said to what he did. I’ll try again when my boiler pressure ceases tickling the safety valve …
w.
Dr Ravetz does not seem to understand the difference between conflict and violence. Conflict is where people disagree, sometimes vehemently. Violence is where an assault occurs.
It is absurd to compare ‘violence’ or ‘non-violence’ in a political context with vigorous, sometimes passionate, debate among scientists. Indeed, it does not even apply to debate in the broader community about a hotly contested issue.
Violence occurs when participants step over the line of debate and do harm to their opponents because of what they believe.
Conflict is an inevitable part of scientific progress.
I am not sure that Dr Ravetz understands the distinction.
Why should I be convinced that what svante arrhenius said about co2 doubling in the atmosphere is true, as some have noted we are conducting an experiment on the earth regarding increasing co2 on temperature whether we like it or not but the results so far do not support the belief that a doubling of co2 will result in a 3c+ rise in temperature.The theory of natural selection does have an experiment which supports the theory, we have the change in colour of a certain moth during the industrial revolution in order to camouflage itself.The explanation that its changing colour helps it survive is very convincing but in other circumstances non camouflaging behavior is seen as helping survival so that these explanation can contradict.I am not sure who is going to be shown to be right in the end but I am not going to accept that Computer models provide such an accurate picture of the future that we must take action on what is going to happen tomorrow today, I would prefer to wait until I am convinced that something needs to be done about co2 rather than be pushed into unnecessary action by certain activists.My opinions maybe wrong but I am just trying to make sense of the climate change debate.
The legacy that many of the self-appointed consensus climate scientists of the past decade are burdened with limits their viable participation in the renaissance climate science. The skeptics will not have so much burden engaging in the renaissance climate science. The make up of the renaissance scientific community will more skeptical scientists than former consensus members.
John
OK, let me try again.
The difference between how Jerry sees the situation and how I see it is this. We both agree that the public no longer trusts climate scientists.
I see the problem as being bad science being hyped by climate scientists to push an alarmist agenda. I think that until climate scientists start doing honest, transparent science, with all warts visible and all data and code archived, until then there is no hope of trust in climate science.
Jerry sees the problem as the two sides in the debate being all hostile with each other, and not communicating with each other, and that the AGW side have a hard time communicating with the public. He thinks that the trust can be restored through mutual respect and communication and non-violence.
In other words, I see a science problem where Jerry sees a communication problem. Here’s a quotation that exemplifies the difference:
Climategate … A surprisingly large number of rogue climate scientists including some top luminaries in the field go totally off the reservation and engage in a host of egregious and even likely illegal acts. When the emails reveal them for what they are, almost all of the rest of the climate scientists try to excuse their actions. Three whitewash committees pretend to investigate the whole farrago, and all fastidiously avoid looking at anything of interest. Heaps of problems in there, lots of things that deserve condemnation by honest scientists.
Jerry, on the other hand, thinks the problem worth discussing was the “mutual denunciations” … Jerry, here’s a clue for you. When people pull that kind of unethical and possibly illegal stuff, they will get denounced. The problem wasn’t too much denunciation. It was the lack of denunciation by the rest of the field that turned people’s stomachs.
That’s the fundamental difference. For me, the “mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate” is a huge red herring. Here’s the “mutual denunciations” between two of the scientists in the Climategate debate, me and Phil Jones. Phil Jones says I’m a huge pain in the ass, and I say he’s a crook who advises people to illegally delete emails and an incompetent who can’t keep track of a mere handful of data. I think that both of us are likely right.
So is that the problem? Is it that “mutual denunciation” by me and Phil Jones which is the problem … or is the problem Phil Jones’ unethical and possibly immoral actions? I say it’s the latter, and that all of the communication and non-violence in the world won’t touch that problem at all.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of both communication and non-violence. I write what I write to encourage communication and discussion. I just don’t think that they will have much impact when the problem is the climate-science-wide acceptance of shabby, third-rate science, combined with the lack of disapproval of those who are caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
w.
Those of an older generation remember a time when the prestige of science was unquestioned. Science would save the world, and scientists would do the saving. It is all different now, and the mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate have not helped.
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Well, I’m not sure when that golden era was. I suspect that, like most golden eras, it exists only in retrospect. The ‘mad scientist’ archetype exemplified in movies and books from the 1930s onwards almost exactly paralleled the growing influence of science.
Science has saved hundreds of millions of lives, through vaccination and the work of Norman Borlaug, to name a couple of examples. But, it has never, and will never, ‘save the world’. This is hubris and folly. Something could come whizzing out of space and wipe us out in a few seconds, to take an extreme example.
I am very uneasy about arguments that go to preserving the reputation of an institution, a discipline, or an individual in the face of unpleasant facts. It is the coverup, not the sin, that tends to cause the most harm.
I had not been aware of Dr. Ravetz or his work before. Reading his brief biography on Wiki tonight, I find myself wondering whether he might not be a good example of the Watermelon Theory of Environmental Activism. Green on the outside, red on the inside seems to be the plain fact of the matter.
Please pardon me if this is a violent way of putting things. Or rather, don’t. Those who can’t advocate for social revolution and wealth redistribution on their own merits, but instead try to sneak them in through the back door of green advocacy, deserve, in my view, to be poked with the sharpest of rhetorical sticks, and civility be damned.
Dr Ravetz, Thank you for this provocative post! You mention “…our very own fire-eating champion Willis. He was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition. ” I’d like to read the original exchange. Can you provide the reference?
Dr. Ravetz,
You started your “peace message” with an absolutely unwarranted and ungracious attack on Mr. Eschenbach, and then made, out of thin air, the most ridiculous comparison between the real violence taking place in Burma, Africa, etc., and the lukewarm verbal exchanges in Lisbon.
It is obvious that you have never dealt with the real violence, and confuse (as Johanna already mentioned above) a legitimate verbal conflict with a manhandling or something worse.
Your previous article on PNS impressed me as so much nebulous nonsense. This time, you revealed a typical quality of the modern Academia: insidious malice and thievish servility wearing a wooden mask of peace and fairness.
I shall never read again anything written by you, Dr. Ravetz.
Dr Ravetz, Sir,
I have only major concern about scientists coming to terms in peaceful negotiations, and that is that they must all be scientists or followers of the scientific method. Those who do not follow scientific practices and fudge, cheat and hide their methods are not scientists, they are charlatans and pimps for a different cause and outcome. I would rather make a pact with the devil, for at least he is honest in his deceit.