Do solar scientists STILL think that recent warming is too large to explain by solar activity?

 

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Study of the sun-climate link was energized in 1991 by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, who showed a strong correlation between solar-cycle length and global temperature:

This evidence that much of 20th century warming might be explained by solar activity was a thorn in the side of the newly powerful CO2 alarmists, who blamed recent warming on human burning of fossil fuels. That may be why Lassen and Thejll were quick to offer an update as soon as the 1997-98 El Nino made it look as if temperatures were suddenly skyrocketing:

The rapid temperature rise recently seems to call for a quantitative revisit of the solar activity-air temperature association …

We conclude that since around 1990 the type of Solar forcing that is described by the solar cycle length model no longer dominates the long-term variation of the Northern hemisphere land air temperature.

In other words, there was now too much warming to account for by solar cycle length, so some other factor, such as CO2, had to be driving the most recent warming. Of course everyone knew that the 1998 warming had actually been caused by ocean oscillations. Even lay people knew it. (El Nino storm tracks were all the news for six months here in California.)

When Lassen was writing his update in mid ’99, temperatures had already dropped back to 1990 levels. His 8 year update was outdated before it was published. 12 years later the 2010 El Nino year shows the same average temperature as the ’98 El Nino year, and if post-El Nino temperatures continue to fall off the way they did in 99, we’ll be back to 1990 temperatures by mid-2011. Isn’t it about time Friis-Cristensen, Lassen and Thejll issued another update? Do they still think there has been too much recent warming to be accounted for by solar activity?

The most important update may be the discovery that, where Lassen and his colleagues found a correlation between the length of a solar-cycle and temperatures over that cycle, others have been finding a much stronger correlation to temperatures over the next cycle (reported at WUWT this summer by David Archibald).

This further correlation has the advantage of allowing us make projections. As Archibald deciphers Solheim’s Norwegian:

since the period length of previous cycle (no 23) is at least 3 years longer than for cycle no 22, the temperature is expected to decrease by 0.6 – 1.8 degrees over the following 10-12 years.

Check out this alarming graphic from Stephen Strum of Frontier Weather Inc:

Lagged solar cycle length and temp, Stephen Strum, Frontier Weather Inc.

The snowed in Danes might like to see these projections, before they bet the rest of their climate eggs on a dangerous war against CO2.

From sins of omission to sins of commission

In 2007, solar scientist Mike Lockwood told the press about some findings he and Claus Frohlich had just published:

In 1985, the Sun did a U-turn in every respect. It no longer went in the right direction to contribute to global warming. We think it’s almost completely conclusive proof that the Sun does not account for the recent increases in global warming.

Actually, solar cycle 22, which began in 1986, was one of the most intense on record (part of the 20th century “grand maximum” that was the most active sun of the last 11 thousand years), and by almost every measure it was more intense than solar cycle 21. It had about the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 (Hathaway 2006):

Sunspot prediction, NASA-Hathaway, 2006

Cycle 22 ran more solar flux than cycle 21 (via Nir Shaviv):

Cycle 22 was shorter than cycle 21 (from Joseph D’Aleo):

Solar cycle length, from Joseph D'Aleo

Perhaps most important is solar activity as measured (inversely) by the cosmic ray flux (which many think is mechanism by which solar activity drives climate). Here cycle 22 is THE most intense in the 60 year record, stronger even than cycle 19, the sunspot number king. From the Astronomical Society of Australia:

Neutron counts, Climaz Colorado, with sunspots, Univ. of Chicago

Some “U-turn in every respect.”

If Lockwood and Frohlich simply wanted to argue that the peak of the modern maximum of solar activity was between solar cycles 21 and 22 it would be unobjectionable. What difference does it make exactly when the peak was reached? But this is exactly where their real misdirection comes in. They claim that the peak of solar activity marks the point where any solar-climate effect should move from a warming to a cooling direction. Here is the abstract from their 2007 Royal Society article:

Abstract There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.

In order to assert the need for some other explanation for recent warming (CO2), they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.

Ken Gregory has the most precise answer to this foolishness. His “climate smoothing” graphic shows how the temperature of a heat sink actually responds to a fall-off in forcing:

Gregory, climate smoothing, contra-Lockwood

“Note that the temperature continues to rise for several years after the Sun’s forcing starts to decrease.”

Gregory’s numbers here are arbitrary. It could be many years before a fall off in forcing causes temperatures to start rising. In the case of solar cycle 22—where if solar forcing was actually past its peak, it had only fallen off a tiny bit—the only way temperature would not keep rising over the whole solar cycle is if global temperature had already equilibrated to peak solar forcing, which Lockwood and Frohlich make no argument for.

The obvious interpretation of the data is that we never did reach equilibrium temperatures, allowing grand maximum levels of solar activity to continue to warm the planet until the sun suddenly went quiet. Now there’s an update for Lockwood and Frohlich. How about telling the public when solar activity really did do “U” (October 2005).

Usoskin, Benestad, and a host of other solar scientists also mistakenly assume that temperature is driven by trend instead of level

Maybe it is because so much of the evidence for a sun-climate link comes from correlation studies, which look for contemporaneous changes in solar activity and temperature. Surely the scientists who are doing these studies all understand that there is no possible mechanism by which the rate of change in solar activity can itself drive temperature. If temperature changes when solar activity changes, it is because the new LEVEL of solar activity has a warming or cooling effect.

Still, a remarkable number of these scientists say things like this (from Usoskin et al. 2005):

The long term trends in solar data and in northern hemisphere temperatures have a correlation coefficient of about 0.7 — .8 at a 94% — 98% confidence level. …

… Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the total solar irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most warming episode must have another source.

Set aside the other problems with Usoskin’s study. (The temperature record he compared his solar data to is Michael Mann’s “hockey stick.”) How can he claim overwhelming evidence for a sun-climate link, while simultaneously insisting that steady peak levels of solar activity can’t create warming? If steady peak levels coincide with warming, it supposedly means the sun-climate link is now broken, so warming must be due to some other cause, like CO2.

It is hard to believe that scientists could make such a basic mistake, and Usoskin et al. certainly have powerful incentive to play dumb: to pretend that their correlation studies are finding physical mechanisms by which it is changes in the level of solar activity, rather than the levels themselves, that drive temperature. Just elide this important little nuance and presto, modern warming gets misattributed to CO2, allowing these researchers to stay on the good side of the CO2 alarmists who control their funding. Still, the old adage is often right: never attribute to bad motives what can just as well be explained by simple error.

And of course there can be both.

RealClimate exchange on trend vs. level confusion

Finally we arrive at the beginning, for me anyway. I first came across trend-level confusion 5 years ago at RealClimate. Rasmus Benestad was claiming that, because post 1960’s levels of Galactic Cosmic Radiation have not been trending downwards, GCR cannot be the cause of post-60’s warming.

But solar activity has been well above historical norms since the 40’s. It doesn’t matter what the trend is. The solar-wind is up. According to the GCR-cloud theory, that blows away the GCR, which blows away the clouds, creating warming. The solar wind doesn’t have to KEEP going up. It is the LEVEL that matters, not the trend. Holy cow. Benestad was looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).

A few months later I took an opportunity to state my rebuttal as politely as possible, which elicited a response from Gavin Schmidt. Here is our 2005 exchange:

Me: Nice post, but the conclusion: “… solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming,” would seem to be a non-sequitur.

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed, and other forcings may also be involved. The best evidence for causality would seem to be the long term correlations between solar activity and temperature change. Despite the differences between the different proxies for solar activity, isn’t the overall picture one of long term correlation to temperature?

[Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin]

Gavin admits here that it’s the level of solar activity, not the trend in solar activity, that drives temperature. He’s just assuming that grand maximum levels of solar forcing should have bought the planet close to equilibrium temperature before post-80’s warming hit, but that assumption is completely unwarranted. If solar activity is driving climate (the hypothetical that Schmidt is analyzing), we know that it can push temperatures a lot higher than they are today. Surely Gavin knows about the Viking settlement of Greenland.

The rapid warming in the late 90’s could easily have been caused by the monster solar cycle 22 and there is no reason to think that another big cycle wouldn’t have brought more of the same. Two or three more cycle 22s and we might have been hauling out the longships, which would be great. No one has ever suggested that natural warming is anything but benign. Natural cooling bad, natural warming good. But alas, a longer grand maximum was not to be.

Gavin’s admission that it is level not trend that drives temperature change is important because ALL of the alarmist solar scientists are making the trend-level mistake. If they would admit that the correct framework is to look at the level of forcing and the lapse to equilibrium then they would be forced to look at the actual mechanisms of forcing and equilibration, instead of ignoring key forcings on the pretense that steady peak levels of forcing cannot cause warming.

That’s the big update that all of our solar scientists need to make. They need to stop tolerating this crazy charade that allows the CO2 alarmists to ignore the impact of decades of grand maximum solar activity and misattribute the resulting warming to fossil fuel burning. It is a scientific fraud of the most disastrous proportions, giving the eco-lunatics the excuse they need to unplug the modern world.

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January 4, 2011 8:28 am

and how about a 0,2K difference between CRU and ERA40 GLOBAL over just a few decades…?
Now CRU if ROBUST so i can be used to dismis the whole Solar theory?
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/PERPLEX/fig60.jpg
from
http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/part3-the-perplexing-temperature-data-published-1974-84-and-recent-temperature-data-184.php

Robuk
January 4, 2011 8:32 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 6:33 pm
Robuk says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Why don`t you add CO2 to this graph, don`t bother I`ve already done it.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/leif4.jpg
So you demonstrate that temperature change is not by the Sun. This is, however, old hat.
NO, I am saying that a steady increase in TSI from the early 20th century and remaining at that very high level will for a certain length of time keep the temperature rising. The TSI increase ended around the early 1960`s, that high level continued until the peak of solar cycle 23 around 2001 but the temperature stopped increasing in 1995 near the end of solar cycle 22 even though a warm PDO was dominant throughout and CO2 was still increasing. There are 15 years of level temperatures and the only forcing that has not increased during that time is the sun. The sun is the dominant factor.
It`s a travesty we can’t account for the lack of warming.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/irradiance.gif
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/pdo-1.jpg

January 4, 2011 8:32 am

Suggestion for
Svalgaard, Cliver, Rouillard, Le Sager, Lockwood and McCracken;
get an e-conference going and find out what is Vukcevic up to.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AllvsVuk.htm

January 4, 2011 8:46 am

And Bob, finally finally the strongest argument that rocks the robustness of your CRU and GISS data:
“How likely is it that so many data sources should have errors while GHCN based temperature should be correct?”
so-so
And the final blow to CRU + GISS:
How likely is it, that all these data sources just happens to fail in pretty much the same way? – A rather common “error-trend” that happens to take place accross sea-level, Rain, Drought, Glacier, Proxies and much more?
How likely is it that alle these data sources just “fails” in pretty much the same way?
At leastm this problem is big enough for GHCN based data (CRU+GISS) so that these should be handled with care.
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 8:50 am

tallbloke says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:11 am
“As I said, the Spoerer didn’t do it.”
Nor did the Oort.

Now, that we can agree on. None of the solar minima did it. The Earth’s climate did them in, regardless of solar cycles.

January 4, 2011 9:20 am

Vuk etc says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:32 am
Suggestion for Svalgaard, Cliver, Rouillard, Le Sager, Lockwood and McCracken;
get an e-conference going and find out what is Vukcevic up to.

If you think you have something, publish it.
Robuk says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:32 am
NO, I am saying that a steady increase in TSI from the early 20th century and remaining at that very high level will for a certain length of time keep the temperature rising.
The steady increase in TSI from the early 18th century and remaining at that very high level will for a certain length of time keep the temperature rising during the Dalton Minimum.

January 4, 2011 9:40 am

Frank Lansner says: “And Bob, finally finally the strongest argument that rocks the robustness of your CRU and GISS data:”
They are not MY data, Frank. They are established and published datasets with known deficiencies. So your argument beyond that point is unfounded.

beng
January 4, 2011 10:50 am

******
Dave Springer says:
January 4, 2011 at 4:32 am
The water below the thermocline isn’t at 3.0C because that’s the temperature of maximum density. It’s at 3.0C because that’s the average surface temperature over an entire glacial cycle. It’s physically impossible for it to be at that temperature for any other reason.
******
I agree. Oceans are stratified & heat movement considerably limited, so the water stored below is a “relic” of at least the previous thousand yrs, depending on what the cycle-time of the deep water is. Even if it’s only 1000 yrs & doesn’t reflect the previous ice-age, it still shows there’s alot of near-freezing water accumulating in the oceans, enough to fill most of the ocean’s volume! Otherwise the deep water would be around the avg temp of the earth — 15C instead of 4C.

tallbloke
January 4, 2011 11:33 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:50 am (Edit)
tallbloke says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:11 am
“As I said, the Spoerer didn’t do it.”
Nor did the Oort.
Now, that we can agree on. None of the solar minima did it. The Earth’s climate did them in, regardless of solar cycles.

The way it’s looking to me and Vuk (I think) is that the solar magnetic activity plus the roving around of terrestrial magnetic anomalies add up to regionally strong changes in climate on the centennial scale. So, the Oort minimum wasn’t very pronounced in Greenland, and the Medieval warm period reigned long enough that the Greenland Viking colony established. Then the Wolf minimum and Spoerer minimum finished that episode.
You might remember that when you gave us a link a year or so back to a nice animation of the terrestrial magnetic anomalies reconstructed from 1500 (or was it 1600), I commented that the shift of one of the anomalies from Africa to South america seemed to coincide with their climatic shifts which were pronounced, and seperated by the timescale indicated by the anomalous magnetic traversal of the Atlantic.

January 4, 2011 11:42 am

tallbloke says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:33 am
seemed to coincide with their climatic shifts which were pronounced
‘Coincidence’ is the correct word. The magnetic field of the Earth has no influence on the climate as such [it might have secondary effects, e.g. on cosmic rays observed]. Regional variations even less. Vuk seems to think that the fields are generate near the surface, they are not, they are the results of convection in the liquid core 3500 km down. Spare me the nonsense, please.

January 4, 2011 11:45 am

Bob, you say about CHCN based data: “They are established and published datasets with known deficiencies. So your argument beyond that point is unfounded.”
You should be a politician 🙂
Beyond what is officially declared is unfounded you say…
1) Known problem: UHI
So how does Jones from CRU deal wit the known problem UHI?
I will tell you how: Jones says that they have skipped around 35 stations due to UHI problems. Besides that CRU does no UHI corrections. So in all the stations (incl cities) they use, they do no UHI corrections.
So yes, Bob that problem is known – but not dealt with.
Good enough for you Bob – ok thats your opinion, but certainly not a defended viewpoint that allows you to comand others to write and think like you do.
2) Known problem: Tree proxies
So how do we deal with the problem that tree proxies (practically all kinds of trees has mad a united front against the temperature data you know) do not match temperatures just like Solar activity, sea levels, glaciers etcetc?
Like maaaagic! They babtize the problem: “The divergence problem” ohooo!
And so they have delt with that.
And what then “causes” the divergence problem??
Ohh, its the sulphur in the air. Who cares that this sulfur in the air does only excist in near urban areas most tree samplea are from remote areas like Yamal etce.
But they have Bob Tisdale on their side still 🙂
Again, its a free world, but please RESPECT that other peoble certainly has other points of views!
3) Known problem: Altitude
Ok, Bob do you have documentation that shows that its a general worlwide trend that these temperature stations has been moved synchronically to higher and higher altitudes during the years 1900-2010 to legalize warming adjustments?
Or do you just accept that “proberbly” temperatures stations are allways moved up in altitude..??
4) Known problem: TOB, Time of Observation:
Ok, Bob do you have documentation that shows that its a general worlwide trend that these times are taken synchronically later and later in the morning etc accross all kind of states during the years 1900-2010 while these measurements were just ment for local wheater purposes?
– etcetc. and then mismatch with sea levels originally published, glaciers, rain, droughts etc etc are… “known problems” you accept. You sound SO like an AGW´er im sorry.
Well I just dont without any sound argumenting.
In my view you are far far from sceptical at many points, and thus I certainly do not think you are a typical sceptic at all. The problem is then, that you come to a SCEPTIC site and – as I see it – you simply want that other peoble write and think like sceptics often dont.
Hope you can answer 1-4) just very few of the known problems, show me that there is a reason why you accept all these known problems. Im a sceptic and need sound arguments. not “Known problems”!
K.R. Frank

stevenmosher
January 4, 2011 11:59 am

And here some 0,4K warming adjustments of US temperatures after 1940:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/temperature%20corrections/f8.jpg
############
those adjustments are absolutely required to get accurate records. If you do not do those adjustments ( The TOBS adjustment) You are combining records that were taken at different times of the day. Changing the TOB creates a KNOWN and MEASURED and VERIFIABLE artifact. Consequently it must be accounted for with an adjustment. The issue is the SE of the adjustment and not the adjustment itself.

Stephen Wilde
January 4, 2011 12:04 pm

tallbloke:
I have elsewhere described how variations in the mix of solar wavelengths and particles could be directed in along the magnetic field lines (as regards charged particles that is) so as to achieve maximum effect at the poles.
As you may know, I propose that variations in the mix then cause variations in chemistry at the top of the atmosphere so as to influence ozone concentrations above 45km. That then affects the vertical temperature profile so as to change tropospheric pressure distributions.
If magnetic anomalies themselves move around then I can envisage the point or points of maximum effect also moving around so as to influence the shape of the polar vortices and jetstream meridionality during periods when the sun is less active. To a lesser extent when the sun is active because more zonality reduces the scope for variations in the shape of the circulation whereas more meridionality increases such scope).
Some regions could therefore be affected more than others for particular configurations.
Does that help?

Stephen Wilde
January 4, 2011 12:14 pm

beng said:
” so the water stored below is a “relic” of at least the previous thousand yrs, depending on what the cycle-time of the deep water is.”
The length of the thermohaline circulation (THC) is said to be in the region of 1000 years or so as is the timespan from MWP to Modern Maximum with a dip in between for the LIA.
Elsewhere I have proposed that changes in the quantity of solar shortwave entering the oceans (due to cloudiness and albedo changes) would set up a discontinuity along the horizontal line of the THC surfacing approximately 1000 years later.
I think that that sort of background cycling above and beyond ENSO and PDO is required to explain multicentennial climate trends and also account for the failure of the solar/climate correlations on timescales of less than 500 years.
The solar/climate correlation is very good over 500 year periods but rather sporadic on lesser timescales.

January 4, 2011 12:26 pm

Update
No need for concern, the sun is doing just fine.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC6.htm

January 4, 2011 1:13 pm

Stephen Wilde says:
January 4, 2011 at 12:04 pm
If magnetic anomalies themselves move around then I can envisage the point or points of maximum effect also moving around so as to influence the shape of the polar vortices and jetstream meridionality
As the herds of caribou migrate around then i can envisage the point or points of maximum effect also moving around so as to influence the shape of the polar vortices and jetstream meridionality

stevenmosher
January 4, 2011 1:42 pm

Beyond what is officially declared is unfounded you say…
1) Known problem: UHI
So how does Jones from CRU deal wit the known problem UHI?
I will tell you how: Jones says that they have skipped around 35 stations due to UHI problems. Besides that CRU does no UHI corrections. So in all the stations (incl cities) they use, they do no UHI corrections.
So yes, Bob that problem is known – but not dealt with.
##############
This is utterly misleading Frank. UHI is a “known” effect. That is, there are a variety of studies which show the UHI effect in selected locations. What has never been demonstrated is that this effect BIASES the global record in some measurable way.
There have been several attempts to isolate the UHI effect in the global LAND record.
A. peterson, parker, jones and McKittrick.
The only study to show some significant measureable effect in the global records is mckittrick. He puts the effect at something on the order of 50% of all the warming
ON LAND since 1979. I know of two studies that put the ENTIRE contribution of UHI to ONE STATION at 50% of its warming since 1833. or about .3C over that time span.
Jones, bracketed the effect at 0C to .3C and for his conclusion used .05C as a figure.
It is accounted for in the asymetrical error bars of the CRUtemp series. Finally, by comparing UHA,RSS and the land records we can gain some insight into the UPPER BOUND of UHI contamination in the record. It’s rather small. The point being, contamination of the record has been asserted but never conclusively demonstrated.
Its ‘removal’ has been claimed, but there remain some issues with those claims.
Anyone who wants to correlate solar information with the global record has the following issue: One cannot both accept the record for correlation studies and QUESTION the record in other posts. Consequently, I’d suggest anyone who wants to use the temp record for their studies had best work on the temp record first. Houses built on sand. Or accept the global record and stop posting diversionary things about it.
“2) Known problem: Tree proxies
So how do we deal with the problem that tree proxies (practically all kinds of trees has mad a united front against the temperature data you know) do not match temperatures just like Solar activity, sea levels, glaciers etcetc?
Like maaaagic! They babtize the problem: “The divergence problem” ohooo!
And so they have delt with that.
And what then “causes” the divergence problem??
Ohh, its the sulphur in the air. Who cares that this sulfur in the air does only excist in near urban areas most tree samplea are from remote areas like Yamal etce.
But they have Bob Tisdale on their side still :-)”
########
you utterly mischaracterize the divergence problem and do a great deal of harm to the fine detailed work that McIntyre has done. the divergence problem DOES NOT occur in all trees. I believe steve has pointed this out repeatedly. You have no understanding of this problem. you cannot even get the basic facts correct.
The cause of divergence is under investigation. This why people like steve suggest that it might make sense to look at BOTH trees that are divergent and those that are not. The result would be higher uncertainties about the MWP.
“3) Known problem: Altitude
Ok, Bob do you have documentation that shows that its a general worlwide trend that these temperature stations has been moved synchronically to higher and higher altitudes during the years 1900-2010 to legalize warming adjustments?
Or do you just accept that “proberbly” temperatures stations are allways moved up in altitude..??”
This is not a problem and has been shown repeatedly to not be a problem.
1. The avergae decrease in altitude is a few dozen meters.
2. the anomaly method corrects for this.
3. Methods that dont use anomalies ( jeff id ) ALSO show no bias.
4. You can look at low altitude stations EXCLUSIVELY and get the same answer
5. You can look at over 25000 daily stations and see that the answer is the same.
“4) Known problem: TOB, Time of Observation:
Ok, Bob do you have documentation that shows that its a general worlwide trend that these times are taken synchronically later and later in the morning etc accross all kind of states during the years 1900-2010 while these measurements were just ment for local wheater purposes?”
You do not understand the TOB problem. I suggest you find the thread where we discussed this on CA. When you change the TOB you will change the recorded min/max. This is an observational FACT. Consequently, if a series has several TOB you MUST CORRECT for the change in TOB. if you don’t you will introduce a BIAS. This has been shown and verified on several occasions.

January 4, 2011 1:53 pm

Hi Steven Mosher!
And thanks for input!
I mentioned roughly 0,4K of warming (added from 1940 and foreward).
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/temperature%20corrections/f8.jpg
The left are the adjustments around year 2000 USHCN, and these adjustments are TOBS, UHI, altitude and the lot. Right is the V1 to V2 done around 2007, further adjustments partly argued as chaning UHI corrections. (however, the UHI before was juat around -0,05 K, so the addition of 0,15K is some change of UHI corrections..!)
You then defend the TOBS – part as I read you: “If you do not do those adjustments ( The TOBS adjustment) You are combining records that were taken at different times of the day. Changing the TOB creates a KNOWN and MEASURED and VERIFIABLE artifact. Consequently it must be accounted for with an adjustment. The issue is the SE of the adjustment and not the adjustment itself.”
Steven i totally understand the idea of TOBS and I agree that i can be very relevant. In some cases a measurement is done for example a little later in the morning which lead to a cold-correction, and in some cases its done a litte earlier and needs a warm correction.
But!
The TOBS is a big correction (as I remember around 0,2K worldwide 1940-today or similar). And this TOBS is added very smoothly over the years. So ask yourself, Steven:
1) Howcome the TOBS are not just as often giving a cold correction as a warm correction accros all countries all years?
2) Have you ever seen documented peer rev etc. showing how on Earth all countries synchrically more and more has changed Time of OBServation steadily in one way that just happens to legalize a BIG warming correction world wide?
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 1:58 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:42 am
Vuk seems to think that the fields are generate near the surface, they are not, they are the results of convection in the liquid core 3500 km down.
I don’t think that; I am suggesting it would better explain number of anomalies. I have no idea where field is generated, deep inside, near surface, above surface or whatever. What most of us think (with respect) it is irrelevant, reality matters, and that is continuously reassessed.

January 4, 2011 2:08 pm

Steven, you write: “There have been several attempts to isolate the UHI effect in the global LAND record.
A. peterson, parker, jones and McKittrick.”
Peterson: This is a JOKE that exactly puts the UHI-honesty ino question! Have you not read how hes work has been atomized at climate Audit??
He got 0,05K for UHI as I remember, then Steve mcIntyre finally got hold of data, recalculated the Urban group vs. non Urban and got… + 0,7K from the very same data Peterson used. So we appear to have some sort of calculation error (!!)
Then McIntyre discoveres, that peterson had actually put several rural stations in the urban group and vice versa!! And then McIntyre ended up with a full
+2 K UHI f
or the very data Peterson and com has accepted to use for UHI purpose!
K.R. Frank

Stephen Wilde
January 4, 2011 2:19 pm

Leif,
I said ‘envisage’. I was not presenting it as a fact, just giving tallbloke or vuk some indication as to how it could fit my hypothesis IF they could substantiate it.
Personally I think that the shape of the polar vortex and jetstream meridionality is more likely a function of solar/oceanic interaction combined with the distribution of the continents and some internal system variability but if they can go further then so be it.
Still, if upper atmospheric chemical processes can override purely radiative processes by involving the thermal properties of ozone then positional modification seems feasible and your analogy becomes inapplicable. Unless you think herds of caribou can produce enough methane to create regional disturbances in the greenhouse effect 🙂

January 4, 2011 2:28 pm

jones, UHi, well first i think he did some kind of collaboration on a Chinese study in 1990 to some degree (“wang” was the guy i think) who has been haunted for chosing mostly stations with cut time series. Im pretty sure that this study most certainly has been ditched. Later jones… in 2008?… made a new Chinese study where he got + 0,53 K UHI 1951 to 2004 as i remember.
0,1 K per decade is… A LOT!! compare the globbal warming is supposed to be 0,7 K / 100 years or so…
Parker… is that the wind study?? around 2004? I think it is. Te OBVIOUS thing to do with UHI is to measure urban vs. rural sites, and I will show you later why Parker did not do that. So without explaining whats wrong about just comparing rural vs urban, he makes hes own definition of how temperatures in wind from cities should be and on this groun ditches UHi. I may remember Parker wrong though, forgive me.
Now, Steven i will show you the BEST UHI study EVER made.
I was done by Thomas Karl with data running 1901-1984.
One problem for everyone that tries to study UHI today is that data has been adjusted etc, but the beaty of Thomas karls work is that this was done BEFORE agw agenda hit hard, and before the age of big adjustments.
Thomas Karls study was the best also because its the biggest study i have seen.
here are his results when comparing urban to rural sites 1901-84:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/city%20heat%20IPCC/aau.jpg
Remember that this magnitude of UHI is only for 1901-84, and thus perhaps roughly 70% of the 1900-2010 numbers.
Now, see in the results that for even the smallest category of cities – 2000 inhabitans – karl gets 0,06K for just 1901-84.
Compare this with IPCC typical estimate of 0,05 K in average worldwide.
btw heres the Peterson UHI masakre done on climate Audit:
http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/1859/
The fact that this UHi “study” has slipped through peer rev and intern scrutiny is very telling of problems when it comes to UHI and AGW…
K.R. Frank

Carla
January 4, 2011 2:42 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:42 am
tallbloke says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:33 am
seemed to coincide with their climatic shifts which were pronounced
‘Coincidence’ is the correct word. The magnetic field of the Earth has no influence on the climate as such [it might have secondary effects, e.g. on cosmic rays observed]. Regional variations even less. Vuk seems to think that the fields are generate near the surface, they are not, they are the results of convection in the liquid core 3500 km down. Spare me the nonsense, please.
~
But, but Leif, surface fields are generated “at the surface.” Why cannot they communicate with dipole generated fields? And if surface fields generated are result of solar activity..
Next question, we know that the suns source surface field at this juncture is stronger than its dipole field. Does the earth’s surface generated fields ever reach a level where they could change.. ah..never mind.
Entertain the idea of this for a moment. What happens when let’s say, the interstellar wind changes direction and comes from behind the heliosphere’s direction of orbit instead of meeting it head on? Or any other of the possible variations for that matter.

January 4, 2011 2:45 pm

Steven,
Tree proxies: You write “The cause of divergence is under investigation. ”
Has been for years, not an argument. You cant just claim that trees behave differently today than earlier before you have some valid solid studies and hopefully good arguments in hand!
And yes, im perfectly aware that its not absolutely 100% all trees that behaves “wrong”.
Heres the average from a larger database ALL data, CRU:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/climategate/MannDeclineALLsmall.jpg
An exception is of course the brislte cones :-)) used by Mann!! I think they should rather study why a few tree sorts thrive today. I personally think its because that bristlecones lives often in altitudes and far most plants in altitude lives better in a world with more Co2 because water is limites in altitude and CO2 makes it nessecary to open poors shoorter time and thus loose less water. this is also why you see more growth in desserts during water limitations.
Here is Manns different tree sorts:
http://www.klimadebat.dk/forum/vedhaeftninger/fig11mbhbristlecones.jpg
How many of these shows the strong global warming signature after 1950?
The divergence problem, MORE:
here i show ORIGNAL mostly unadjusted temperatures mostly NH compared with tree ring data NH.
All timeseries cut in 1960 by IPCC even though both original temps and tree rings shows same picture:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/PERPLEX/fig4.jpg
Heres the graphic of “historic temperatures” were IPCC just happens to leave out all temperatures agreeing with tree rings:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/PERPLEX/fig2.jpg
Bravo IPCC.
read more:
http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/part1-the-perplexing-temperature-data-published-1974-84-and-recent-temperature-data-181.php
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 2:53 pm

Vuk etc says:
January 4, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I have no idea where field is generated
There was just a few days ago a measurement of where the field was generated…

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