Do solar scientists STILL think that recent warming is too large to explain by solar activity?

 

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Study of the sun-climate link was energized in 1991 by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, who showed a strong correlation between solar-cycle length and global temperature:

This evidence that much of 20th century warming might be explained by solar activity was a thorn in the side of the newly powerful CO2 alarmists, who blamed recent warming on human burning of fossil fuels. That may be why Lassen and Thejll were quick to offer an update as soon as the 1997-98 El Nino made it look as if temperatures were suddenly skyrocketing:

The rapid temperature rise recently seems to call for a quantitative revisit of the solar activity-air temperature association …

We conclude that since around 1990 the type of Solar forcing that is described by the solar cycle length model no longer dominates the long-term variation of the Northern hemisphere land air temperature.

In other words, there was now too much warming to account for by solar cycle length, so some other factor, such as CO2, had to be driving the most recent warming. Of course everyone knew that the 1998 warming had actually been caused by ocean oscillations. Even lay people knew it. (El Nino storm tracks were all the news for six months here in California.)

When Lassen was writing his update in mid ’99, temperatures had already dropped back to 1990 levels. His 8 year update was outdated before it was published. 12 years later the 2010 El Nino year shows the same average temperature as the ’98 El Nino year, and if post-El Nino temperatures continue to fall off the way they did in 99, we’ll be back to 1990 temperatures by mid-2011. Isn’t it about time Friis-Cristensen, Lassen and Thejll issued another update? Do they still think there has been too much recent warming to be accounted for by solar activity?

The most important update may be the discovery that, where Lassen and his colleagues found a correlation between the length of a solar-cycle and temperatures over that cycle, others have been finding a much stronger correlation to temperatures over the next cycle (reported at WUWT this summer by David Archibald).

This further correlation has the advantage of allowing us make projections. As Archibald deciphers Solheim’s Norwegian:

since the period length of previous cycle (no 23) is at least 3 years longer than for cycle no 22, the temperature is expected to decrease by 0.6 – 1.8 degrees over the following 10-12 years.

Check out this alarming graphic from Stephen Strum of Frontier Weather Inc:

Lagged solar cycle length and temp, Stephen Strum, Frontier Weather Inc.

The snowed in Danes might like to see these projections, before they bet the rest of their climate eggs on a dangerous war against CO2.

From sins of omission to sins of commission

In 2007, solar scientist Mike Lockwood told the press about some findings he and Claus Frohlich had just published:

In 1985, the Sun did a U-turn in every respect. It no longer went in the right direction to contribute to global warming. We think it’s almost completely conclusive proof that the Sun does not account for the recent increases in global warming.

Actually, solar cycle 22, which began in 1986, was one of the most intense on record (part of the 20th century “grand maximum” that was the most active sun of the last 11 thousand years), and by almost every measure it was more intense than solar cycle 21. It had about the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 (Hathaway 2006):

Sunspot prediction, NASA-Hathaway, 2006

Cycle 22 ran more solar flux than cycle 21 (via Nir Shaviv):

Cycle 22 was shorter than cycle 21 (from Joseph D’Aleo):

Solar cycle length, from Joseph D'Aleo

Perhaps most important is solar activity as measured (inversely) by the cosmic ray flux (which many think is mechanism by which solar activity drives climate). Here cycle 22 is THE most intense in the 60 year record, stronger even than cycle 19, the sunspot number king. From the Astronomical Society of Australia:

Neutron counts, Climaz Colorado, with sunspots, Univ. of Chicago

Some “U-turn in every respect.”

If Lockwood and Frohlich simply wanted to argue that the peak of the modern maximum of solar activity was between solar cycles 21 and 22 it would be unobjectionable. What difference does it make exactly when the peak was reached? But this is exactly where their real misdirection comes in. They claim that the peak of solar activity marks the point where any solar-climate effect should move from a warming to a cooling direction. Here is the abstract from their 2007 Royal Society article:

Abstract There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.

In order to assert the need for some other explanation for recent warming (CO2), they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.

Ken Gregory has the most precise answer to this foolishness. His “climate smoothing” graphic shows how the temperature of a heat sink actually responds to a fall-off in forcing:

Gregory, climate smoothing, contra-Lockwood

“Note that the temperature continues to rise for several years after the Sun’s forcing starts to decrease.”

Gregory’s numbers here are arbitrary. It could be many years before a fall off in forcing causes temperatures to start rising. In the case of solar cycle 22—where if solar forcing was actually past its peak, it had only fallen off a tiny bit—the only way temperature would not keep rising over the whole solar cycle is if global temperature had already equilibrated to peak solar forcing, which Lockwood and Frohlich make no argument for.

The obvious interpretation of the data is that we never did reach equilibrium temperatures, allowing grand maximum levels of solar activity to continue to warm the planet until the sun suddenly went quiet. Now there’s an update for Lockwood and Frohlich. How about telling the public when solar activity really did do “U” (October 2005).

Usoskin, Benestad, and a host of other solar scientists also mistakenly assume that temperature is driven by trend instead of level

Maybe it is because so much of the evidence for a sun-climate link comes from correlation studies, which look for contemporaneous changes in solar activity and temperature. Surely the scientists who are doing these studies all understand that there is no possible mechanism by which the rate of change in solar activity can itself drive temperature. If temperature changes when solar activity changes, it is because the new LEVEL of solar activity has a warming or cooling effect.

Still, a remarkable number of these scientists say things like this (from Usoskin et al. 2005):

The long term trends in solar data and in northern hemisphere temperatures have a correlation coefficient of about 0.7 — .8 at a 94% — 98% confidence level. …

… Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the total solar irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most warming episode must have another source.

Set aside the other problems with Usoskin’s study. (The temperature record he compared his solar data to is Michael Mann’s “hockey stick.”) How can he claim overwhelming evidence for a sun-climate link, while simultaneously insisting that steady peak levels of solar activity can’t create warming? If steady peak levels coincide with warming, it supposedly means the sun-climate link is now broken, so warming must be due to some other cause, like CO2.

It is hard to believe that scientists could make such a basic mistake, and Usoskin et al. certainly have powerful incentive to play dumb: to pretend that their correlation studies are finding physical mechanisms by which it is changes in the level of solar activity, rather than the levels themselves, that drive temperature. Just elide this important little nuance and presto, modern warming gets misattributed to CO2, allowing these researchers to stay on the good side of the CO2 alarmists who control their funding. Still, the old adage is often right: never attribute to bad motives what can just as well be explained by simple error.

And of course there can be both.

RealClimate exchange on trend vs. level confusion

Finally we arrive at the beginning, for me anyway. I first came across trend-level confusion 5 years ago at RealClimate. Rasmus Benestad was claiming that, because post 1960’s levels of Galactic Cosmic Radiation have not been trending downwards, GCR cannot be the cause of post-60’s warming.

But solar activity has been well above historical norms since the 40’s. It doesn’t matter what the trend is. The solar-wind is up. According to the GCR-cloud theory, that blows away the GCR, which blows away the clouds, creating warming. The solar wind doesn’t have to KEEP going up. It is the LEVEL that matters, not the trend. Holy cow. Benestad was looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).

A few months later I took an opportunity to state my rebuttal as politely as possible, which elicited a response from Gavin Schmidt. Here is our 2005 exchange:

Me: Nice post, but the conclusion: “… solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming,” would seem to be a non-sequitur.

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed, and other forcings may also be involved. The best evidence for causality would seem to be the long term correlations between solar activity and temperature change. Despite the differences between the different proxies for solar activity, isn’t the overall picture one of long term correlation to temperature?

[Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin]

Gavin admits here that it’s the level of solar activity, not the trend in solar activity, that drives temperature. He’s just assuming that grand maximum levels of solar forcing should have bought the planet close to equilibrium temperature before post-80’s warming hit, but that assumption is completely unwarranted. If solar activity is driving climate (the hypothetical that Schmidt is analyzing), we know that it can push temperatures a lot higher than they are today. Surely Gavin knows about the Viking settlement of Greenland.

The rapid warming in the late 90’s could easily have been caused by the monster solar cycle 22 and there is no reason to think that another big cycle wouldn’t have brought more of the same. Two or three more cycle 22s and we might have been hauling out the longships, which would be great. No one has ever suggested that natural warming is anything but benign. Natural cooling bad, natural warming good. But alas, a longer grand maximum was not to be.

Gavin’s admission that it is level not trend that drives temperature change is important because ALL of the alarmist solar scientists are making the trend-level mistake. If they would admit that the correct framework is to look at the level of forcing and the lapse to equilibrium then they would be forced to look at the actual mechanisms of forcing and equilibration, instead of ignoring key forcings on the pretense that steady peak levels of forcing cannot cause warming.

That’s the big update that all of our solar scientists need to make. They need to stop tolerating this crazy charade that allows the CO2 alarmists to ignore the impact of decades of grand maximum solar activity and misattribute the resulting warming to fossil fuel burning. It is a scientific fraud of the most disastrous proportions, giving the eco-lunatics the excuse they need to unplug the modern world.

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tallbloke
January 3, 2011 1:48 pm

TonyR says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Oceans still cumulitavely contain stored heat which will be released in spurts-el-ninos. It will take a bit of time for the cooling to really manifest itself.

Excellent, another person who gets it.

Matt
January 3, 2011 2:02 pm

Lief,
Thanks. I had no idea which side of the argument that would support, but it seemed to me to be the best choice for numbers that would actually be comparable.

beng
January 3, 2011 2:03 pm

*******
E.M.Smith says:
January 2, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Solar shift in UV, upper atmosphere heat / thickness change, (and cosmic ray /cloud shift), AMO / AO and Polar vortex shift (similar shift in souther hemisphere but with more impact via water issues at Drakes Passage) leading to “loopy jet stream” and more cold flowing to lower lattitudes. At the same time, thinner atmosphere gets colder at shallower heights, so mountain tops, even at the Equator, get colder. (Reverse for warming).
*******
Viewing the earth as a “heat engine”, this seems implausible. Cause and effect would seem reversed . The major energy transfer is in 30 to-30 lat tropics of the troposphere. This tropical “engine” drives many of the important characteristics of the rest of the atmosphere (like lapse rate and Hadley cells) all the way to the poles. Something that contains so little energy/mass & is stratified like the stratosphere is unlikely to drive anything — just the opposite, its characteristics are driven mostly from below.

January 3, 2011 2:06 pm

Dave Springer says:
January 3, 2011 at 12:58 pm
In other words you don’t even know the sign of surface temperature change due to spectral distribution changes.
Not me, the experts who model this. Their models ombodies what man-kind collectively knows about this. [This may not be much or enough].
Alec Rawls says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:00 pm
Leif (at 12:03) is of course correct that if the sun has not been “extraordinarily active” over the past 60 years “the conclusion of the article falls flat.” But Leif’s view that there is no modern grand maximum is far from the only view. He cites Muscheler in support. Solanki and Usoskin say Muscheler is out to lunch.
Additional support. Not the only one.
In any case, Leif’s and Muscheler’s critiques apply only over the last 400 and 1000 years respectively, whereas Solanki and Usoskin’s 11,000 year study (2004) and especially 2007 found the modern maximum to be the grandest since about 7000 BC.
Their study was calibrated on wrong assumptions about solar activity the past 200 years. Another study is Steihilber’s http://www.leif.org/EOS/2009JA014193.pdf especially figure 9 if you don’t want to slug through the whole thing. They get the low values wrong [even infer negative values of the magnetic field] but are likely correct once you are off the bottom. If you look closely at Figure 9(a), you’ll see that the present is not extraordinarily high. The filtered version 9(b) shows that perhaps more clearly. They say: “Figure 9a also shows that there have been several periods with similar high IMF values during the Holocene.”
The issue with the low values [the floor] is of great interest as we discuss in http://www.leif.org/research/2009JA015069.pdf Figure 14 shows the ‘modern’ part of their reconstruction. There is a distinct minimum around 1890. We know from other data that the solar magnetic field did not take a dip then, showing their problem with the low-end of the calibration.
Also, Leif’s critique is focused on sunspot numbers, which bear an uncertain relationship to the solar wind and GCR blocking.
No, there is no ‘uncertain’ relationships. The physics is well-known and we can account in considerable quantitative detail for what is going on.
At 10:49 Leif says: “Solar activity has been decreasing for a couple of decades now, and so has global temperature. Am I wrong?” In other words (as I read him), he is saying that if climate is driven by the sun, the last couple decades of decreasing solar activity should have caused a couple of decades of global cooling.
No, I was rhetorical. You was supposed to say: “what do you mean temps are decreasing, this is the second warmest year ever”. The fact is that solar activity is down but temps are up. I illustrated this here http://www.leif.org/research/RSS-and-SNN.png
That requires the additional assumption that solar forcing has already driven temperatures to their equilibrium point, which neither Leif, nor Lockwood, nor Frohlich, nor Schmidt, has even attempted to argue.
So how long does that take? 100 years? Most researchers of this talk about a time constant of 5-7 years.
while I did make a counter argument: if the sun is driving climate, we know it can drive temperatures substantially higher than today (citing the Viking settlement of Greenland).
During the 11 century [1000 AD-1100AD] solar activity was low [the Oort minimum.
Does Leif have an argument to make for his implicit assumption that solar forcing reached its equilibrium temperature in the late 20th century?
I do not know when that happened [if ever] and I don’t know if anybody else does. What I do know is that solar activity in the latter half of the 20th century probably was not extraordinarily high. The basic argument is what role the ‘background’ solar magnetic field plays [the Ephemeral Regions which is supposed to mirror the ‘open flux’]. Many years ago I suggested that the ‘open flux had doubled during the 20th century. I have since then shown that I was wrong, but unfortunately the notion of a ‘doubling’ has made it into the literature and tainted untold numbers of papers ever since. See http://www.leif.org/research/Reply%20to%20Lockwood%20IDV%20Comment.pdf for a discussion of this. Solanki and company still subscribe to the doubling, even though Lockwood does not any more. What has happened is that the open flux is now down to where it was 108 years ago, so we expect TSI, cosmic rays, temperatures [if there is any solar connection] and all the rest to have reverted to values of a century ago. In particular: has temperatures reverted to the very cold 1900s? You can always get around such inconvenient questions by postulating a lag of such variable length to make things fit. Which lag du jour do you suggest?

January 3, 2011 2:24 pm

Vuk etc says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:18 pm
NAP does not fail, it can’t fail
Yet another idea that cannot be falsified, it seems.
then the NAP signal is one of the major discoveries of the early 21st century.
There are 13 to a dozen of those. But just in case, reserve front seats for me at your Nobel Prize acceptance speech.
GuyG says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:24 pm
I would like to add a couple of references and ask a couple of questions to this actually good and intelligent debate. Leif, what is your comment regarding this question of the Wolf study.
Which Wolf study?
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:26 pm
“The standard variation of my sunspot numbers is higher than the GSN crew’s. What I dispute is the secular, regular, steady increase that is claimed.”
I’m not seeing this “secular, regular, steady increase” on this graph, can you point it out? http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/mean:124

typical bait and switch. The Krivova et al paper was based on GSN, and you ask about SIDC. Look at slide 4 of http://www.leif.org/research/Rudolf%20Wolf%20Was%20Right.pdf for GSN. Follow the red arrow.
Your reconstruction may have a larger sd than the GSN, but the issue is the centennial variation, not the difference between adjacent high and low cycles. This is a red herring. The sd over a century takes into account all low and high values so gives a good measure of overall activity.
There is no centennial variation since 1720, see Figure 14 of http://www.leif.org/research/2009JA015069.pdf
The dips in 1700, 1810, and 1985 are most likely due to volcanic activity, either directly via aerosols or indirectly via climate-related circulation. “W. R. Webber et al. (A comparison of new calculations of the yearly 10Be production in the Earth’s polar atmosphere by cosmic rays with yearly 10Be measurements in multiple Greenland ice cores between 1939 and 1994—A troubling lack of concordance, manuscript in preparation, 2010) suggest that “more than 50% of the 10Be flux increase around, e.g., 1700 A.D., 1810 A.D. and 1895 A.D. is due to nonproduction related increases.”

January 3, 2011 2:27 pm

Leone, Yes, its very likely indeed that its the GISS + Hadcrut temperature graphs that are responsible for a significant part of the mismatch between Solar activity and “temperatures”.
This is obvious from an overwhelming variety of sources, for example:
Treeproxies combined with UAH trend:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lanser_holocene_figure3.png
From Article: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/11/making-holocene-spaghetti-sauce-by-proxy/
(here is a special version of fig2 from the Article:
http://www.klimadebat.dk/forum/vedhaeftninger/gissdivergence.gif )
or
Glaciers: http://hidethedecline.eu/media/OverviewLansner/mar20101.jpg
etcetc.
K.R. Frank

January 3, 2011 2:36 pm

The dips in 1700, 1810, and 1985 are most likely due to volcanic activity
1895, of course.

January 3, 2011 2:49 pm

Alec rawls!
Superbe input to the debate, and then you write:
“To say that a steady high level of temperature forcing cannot cause warming ..”
EXACTLY, i have been saying this obvious point for ages, and someting so simple is hard to understand for many.
There is NO way we can say for shure that a steady HIGH level of solar activity should not be leading to some temperature increase over more decades (!!)
K.R. Frank
PS, I have something more to sho you, coming up…

1DandyTroll
January 3, 2011 2:51 pm

Dave Springer
‘It was no debacle. It followed the path of other revolutionary new technologies. A whole buttload of companies in the beginning followed by consolidation into a few leaders as the technology matured just as it happened in the auto and airline industries in the past century.’
Of course it was a debacle, serious people was selling, or rather trying to sell, serious hardware, software, and actual working solutions, but they were our paced by more, well, money wise intelligent folks and the get-rich-quick-scheme folks that just were lucky.
There was a lot of awesome tech back then that never saw the light of day because all the money went the way of, preferably, fast return.
‘No early investors in Microsoft, Intel, Cisco, Apple, Google, Facebook, Ebay, or Amazon are complaining today.’
Oh, except the ones that bailed before lift off, as per usual, equal that to most who draw the quick conclusion. :p

January 3, 2011 2:58 pm

Alec, This is a sketch (In Danish) what you are suggesting, that the full 100% effect of more very strong solar cycles or more very weak solar cycles is not nessecary achieved already during first cycle: It is neither physically impossible nor unlikely that effect from solar cycles (Strong or weak) ACCUMULATES to some degree over more cycles.
http://www.klimadebat.dk/forum/vedhaeftninger/fpredict.gif
In fact, if the energy some source of heat cannot be accumulated over decades, then for example the 100% full effect of the 380 ppm CO2 should have been seen in the same decade 380 ppm was reached. The effect of 390 ppm should only be the 10 ppm extra effect etc etc, and this we can all see is nonsence.
K.R. Frank
http://www.hidethedecline.eu/

maksimovich
January 3, 2011 2:59 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:36 pm
The dips in 1700, 1810, and 1985 are most likely due to volcanic activity
1895, of course.
Which one ?

January 3, 2011 3:05 pm

Frank Lansner says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:27 pm
(here is a special version of fig2 from the Article:
http://www.klimadebat.dk/forum/vedhaeftninger/gissdivergence.gif )

Using the Hoyt&Schatten TSI is almost a crime against humanity. [trying to influence people on a highly politicized subject, with potential devastating effects].

January 3, 2011 3:08 pm

beng says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:03 pm
something that contains so little energy/mass & is stratified like the stratosphere is unlikely to drive anything — just the opposite, its characteristics are driven mostly from below.
Finally somebody who gets it.

January 3, 2011 3:10 pm

Leif, i know what you say about hoyt and Schatten, but please notice the point (!) : The solar graph shows rather the same level 1940 and 2000, which is imilar to the other graphs. This – THE – point is in no way changed beacause i use Hoyt and Schatten.
K.R. Frank

January 3, 2011 3:12 pm

Frank Lansner says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:49 pm
There is NO way we can say for sure that a steady HIGH level of solar activity should not be leading to some temperature increase over more decades (!!)
Double the solar output and keep it steady for a few thousand years, then be sure. Unless your double [almost triple] negative fools me.

windansea
January 3, 2011 3:12 pm

interesting discussion..
after reading McIntyre, Watts, Chiefio etc for years I don’t trust the temperature data and from what Leif is saying we there are many data sets of solar output that conflict with each other and in the future it is possible he will disprove what he is saying now, yet people continue to plot graphs looking for correlations. 🙂
I live in a condo on the beach in Puerto Vallarta, this is the coldest winter in my six years here, and the ocean is in the exact same place it was when I bought the condo.

ferd berple
January 3, 2011 3:13 pm

something that is ignored in the discussion of forcing and feedback is resonance. The assumption is made that the change in TSI is not a significant forcing factor because the magnitude is small. This totally ignores the effects of resonance.
consider a playground swing. a small change in the center of gravity of the rider has minimal forcing effect when applied at random. However, this small forcing leads to a very large observed effect when applied in phase with the observed effect.
So, if there is a resonance between TSI and climate, the possibility exists for a very large change in temperature to occur as a result of a very small change in TSI. Is there evidence for a resonance between TSI and temperature?
12:30:60 is an obvious resonance between the orbits of Jupiter, Saturn and the PDO, with the angular momentum of the sun around the center of mass of the solar system “stirring up” the sun and driving changes in the TSI.

January 3, 2011 3:17 pm

Frank Lansner says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Leif, i know what you say about hoyt and Schatten, but please notice the point (!) : The solar graph shows rather the same level 1940 and 2000, which is imilar to the other graphs. This – THE – point is in no way changed because i use Hoyt and Schatten.
H&S were also wrong about 1940.
http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon.png
http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon3.png
http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon4.png
and about the dip in the 1960s.

January 3, 2011 3:19 pm

maksimovich says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:59 pm
“The dips in 1700, 1810, and 1985 are most likely due to volcanic activity
1895, of course.”
Which one ?

Probably Krakatoa as the dip starts in 1883: Figure 13 of http://www.leif.org/research/2009JA015069.pdf

January 3, 2011 3:22 pm

Leif, When i write : “There is NO way we can say for sure that a steady HIGH level of solar activity should not be leading to some temperature increase over more decades (!!)”
.. do you agree or not?
K.R. Frank

January 3, 2011 3:26 pm

Hi Again Leif:
Your graph shows more variation in Hoyt and Schatten in for example 1940-70, but as I said, the point we are discussing is the Solar activity on average has not risen since perhaps 1940 unlike some supposed indicators of temperatures. ALL the graphs you show on http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon3.png could be used in that context. Please go for the central points .
K.R. Frank

January 3, 2011 3:30 pm

ferd berple says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:13 pm
This totally ignores the effects of resonance.
Resonance requires a transfer of energy between more than one reservoir, i.e. a coupling that effects such transfer.
Is there evidence for a resonance between TSI and temperature?
TSI comes from the Sun and the question is what the coupling would be. There is certainly no transfer back to TSI, so no resonance.
12:30:60 is an obvious resonance between the orbits of Jupiter, Saturn and the PDO, with the angular momentum of the sun around the center of mass of the solar system “stirring up” the sun and driving changes in the TSI.
There is no transfer of angular momentum to the Sun’s rotational angular momentum, so so coupling, and no two-way transfer required for resonance.

January 3, 2011 3:31 pm

ferd berple says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:13 pm
This totally ignores the effects of resonance.
Resonance requires a transfer of energy between more than one reservoir, i.e. a coupling that effects such transfer.

Robuk
January 3, 2011 4:07 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:40 am
Geoff says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:22 am
When temperatures cool due to declining solar activity
For all you solar enthusiasts, here is what you get when you add the sunspot to the graph of RSS: http://www.leif.org/research/RSS-and-SSN.png
Perhaps someone would put CO2 on the graph as well 🙂 … Aw, forget it, CO2 lags 800 years behind Temperatures…
Phil Jones I believe stated there has been no statistically detectable warming since 1995, so the temperature levels off near the end of solar cycle 22, steady high solar activity from around 1960 kept the temperature rising, it then probably reached its peak in 1995 then stabilized.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/irradiance.gif
Why don`t you add CO2 to this graph, don`t bother I`ve already done it.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/leif4.jpg

tallbloke
January 3, 2011 4:35 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
Alec Rawls says:
while I did make a counter argument: if the sun is driving climate, we know it can drive temperatures substantially higher than today (citing the Viking settlement of Greenland).
During the 11 century [1000 AD-1100AD] solar activity was low [the Oort minimum.

The Oort minimum doesn’t show up very strongly in the Greenland Be10 data (Yes I know there are issues with the Be10 data). But the Sporer does. Maybe that’s what drove the Vikings out of Greenland at the end of the C15th?
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/tim-10be.jpg

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