Does CO₂ heat the troposphere ?

This graphic, seen on many websites, was not part of Vonk's essay, but added by Anthony to visually tag the topic

Guest Post by Tom Vonk

In a recent post I considered the question in the title. You may see it here : http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/05/co2-heats-the-atmosphere-a-counter-view/

The post generated great deal of interest and many comments.

Even if most of the posters understood the argument and I answered the comments of those who did not, I have been asked to sum up the discussion.

Before starting, I will repeat the statement that I wished to examine.

Given a gas mixture of CO₂ and N₂ in Local Thermodynamic Equilibrium (LTE) and submitted to infrared radiation, does the CO₂ heat the N₂?”

To begin, we must be really sure that we understood not only what is contained in the question but especially what is NOT contained in it.

  1. The question contains no assumption about the radiation. Most importantly there is no assumption whether a radiative equilibrium does or does not exist. Therefore the answer will be independent from assumptions concerning radiative equilibrium. Similarly all questions and developments concerning radiative transfer are irrelevant to the question.

  1. The question contains no assumption about the size or the geometry of the mixture. It may be a cube with a volume of 1 mm³ or a column of 10 km height. As long as the mixture is in LTE, any size and any geometry works.

  1. The question contains no assumption about boundary conditions. Such assumptions would indeed be necessary if we asked much more ambitious questions like what happens at boundaries where no LTE exists and which may be constituted of solids or liquids. However we do not ask such ambitious questions.

Also it is necessary to be perfectly clear about what “X heats Y” means.

It means that there exists a mechanism transferring net (e.g non zero) energy unidirectionaly

from X to Y .

Perhaps as importantly, and some posters did not understand this point, the statement

“X heats Y” is equivalent to the statement “Y cannot cool X”.

The critical posts – and here we exclude posts developing questions of radiative transfer which are irrelevant as explained in 1) above – were of 2 types.

Type 1

The argument says “LTE never exists or alternatively LTE does not apply to a mixture of CO₂ and N₂.”

The answer to the first variant is that LTE exists and I repeat the definition from the original post : “A volume of gas is in LTE if for every point of this volume there exists a neighborhood in which the gas is in thermodynamic equilibrium (TE)”

2 remarks to this definition:

  • It is not said and it is not important how large this neighborhood of every point is. It may be a cube of 1 mm³ or a cube of 10 m³ . The important part is that this neighborhood exists (almost) everywhere.

  • LTE is necessary to define local temperature. Saying that LTE never exists is equivalent to saying that local temperatures never exist.

The second variant admits that LTE exists but suggests that a mixture of CO₂ and N₂ cannot be in LTE.

The LTE conditions are given when energy at every point is efficiently spread out among all available degrees of freedom (translation, rotation, vibration).

The most efficient tool for energy spreading are molecular collisions.

Without going in a mathematical development (see statistical thermodynamics for those interested), it is obvious that LTE will exist when there are many molecular collisions per volume unit.

This depends mostly on density – high density gases will be often in LTE while very low density gases will not.

For those not yet convinced, hold out a thermometer in your bedroom and it is probable that it will show a well defined temperature everywhere – your bedroom is in LTE .

We deal here with a mixture of CO₂ and N₂ in conditions of the troposphere which are precisely conditions where LTE exists too.

Type 2

The argument says “The mean time between collisions is much shorter than the mean decay time (e.g time necessary to emit a photon) and therefore all infrared energy absorbed by the CO₂ molecules is immediately and unidirectionaly transferred to the N₂ molecules.”

In simple words – the CO₂ never has time to emit any IR photons because it loses vibrational energy by collisions instead.

This statement is indeed equivalent to the statement “CO₂ heats N₂”.

Now let us examine the above figure.

The good understanding of this figure will do much better than only answering the original question. It will also make clear to everybody what is really happening in our gas mixture in LTE.

The figure shows the distribution of the kinetic energy (Ox axis) among the N₂ molecules (Oy axis).

This typical curve is called the Maxwell Boltzmann distribution, has been known for more than 100 years and experimentally confirmed with high accuracy.

We know that the temperature is defined by <E>, the energy average.

Hence it is the curve shown in the figure that defines the temperature of a gas.

Another way to say the same thing is to say that the curve depends only on temperature. If we wanted to have the distribution for another gas than N₂ , f.ex CO₂ or O₂, it would be given by an identical curve.

The blue curve gives the distribution of kinetic energy at 25°C while the red curve gives the distribution at 35°C.

The minimal energy is small but non-zero and there is no maximal energy.

A very important point on the Ox axis is the energy of the first vibrationally excited state of a CO₂ molecule.

You notice that at 25°C the majority of N₂ molecules has insufficient kinetic energy to excite this vibrational state.

Only the proportion of them given by the dark blue surface has enough energy to excite the vibrational state by collision.

When the temperature increases to 35°C, you notice that the proportion of N₂ molecules able to excite the vibrational CO₂ state by collision has significantly increased .

This proportion is given by the sum of the dark blue and light blue surface.

You also notice that as there exists no maximal energy, there will be a proportion of N₂ molecules able to excite the vibrational CO₂ state at any temperature.

Trivial so far? Well it will not get much more complicated.

First 2 technical points which play no role in the argument but which I would like to mention for the sake of completness.

  • The figure shows the translational kinetic energy. Even if in some (popular) literature the temperature is defined as being an average of the translational kinetic energy, this is not strictly true.

The temperature is really defined as an average of all energy modes. So what about the vibrational and rotational energy?

At the low tropospheric temperatures we are considering, the distribution of the vibrational energy is extremely simple : about 5% or less of the molecules are in the first excited state and 95% or more are in the ground state.

As for the rotational energy, it can be computed classically without quantum corrections and the result is that it also follows a Maxwell Boltzmann distribution.

Therefore if we wished to plot the total energy (Etranslational + Evibrational + Erotational) we would rescale the Ox axis and obtain exactly the same curve as the one that is shown.

However as we are interested in studying the T/V interactions, it is the curve of the translational kinetic energy that interests us.

  • We find the omnipresence of LTE again. This curve has been derived and experimentally confirmed only, and only if, the gas is in TE. Therefore the following 2 statements are equivalent :

The gas is in LTE” , “The energy distribution at every point is given by the Maxwell Boltzmann distribution” .

If you feel that these statements are not equivalent, reread carefully what is above.

Now we can demonstrate why the Type2 argument is wrong.

Imagine that you mix cold N₂ represented by the blue curve in the Figure with highly vibrationally excited CO₂. The mixture would then not be in LTE and a transient would take place.

In the molecular process (1) CO₂* + N₂ → CO₂ + N₂⁺ which says that a vibrationally excited CO₂ molecule (CO₂*) collides with an N₂ molecule , decays to the ground state (CO₂) and increases the translational kinetic energy of N₂ (N₂⁺) , there would be a net energy transfer from CO₂* to N₂ .

As a result of this transfer the temperature of N₂ would increase and the blue curve would move to the red one.

However doing that, the number of molecules able to excite CO₂ vibrationally would increase (see the blue surfaces in the figure).

That means that during the increase of the temperature of N₂ , the rate of the opposite molecular process (2) CO₂ + N₂⁺ → CO₂* + N₂ where N₂ molecules (those from the blue surface in the figure) vibrationally excite CO2 molecules, will increase too.

Of course the transient net energy transfer from CO₂ to N₂ will not continue forever because else the mixture would transform into superheated plasma.

A local equilibrium will be established at each point and in this equilibrium the rate of the process (1) will be exactly equal to the rate of the process (2).

The curve of energy distribution will stop moving and the Maxwell Boltzmann distribution will describe this distribution at every point.

This is exactly the definition of LTE.

The transient will stop when the mixture reaches LTE and its characteristic feature is that there is no local net energy transfer from CO₂ to N₂.

This result demonstrates both that the Type2 argument is wrong and that the answer on the question we asked at the beginning is “No”.

In very simple words, if you take a small volume (for example 1 m³) of the CO₂ and N₂ mixture in LTE around any point , then there cannot be any net energy transfer from CO₂ to N₂ within this volume.

To establish the last step we will take the following statements.

  • The result obtained for the CO₂ and N₂ mixture in LTE is equally true for a mixture containing 78% of N₂ , 21% of O₂ , x% of CO₂ and 1-x % H₂O in LTE.

  • The mixture defined above approximates well the troposphere and the troposphere is indeed in LTE

  • From the 2 statements above and the demonstrated result follows :

The CO₂ does not heat the troposphere” what is the answer on the question asked in the title.

Caveat1

I have said it both in the initial post and in this one.

Unfortunately, I know that it can’t be avoided and that some readers will still be confused about the result established here and start considering radiative transfers or radiative equilibriums.

That’s why I stress again that LTE and the result established here is totally independent of radiative equilibriums and radiative transfer properties.

However it does falsify one misconception concerning radiative properties of CO₂ that has also figured in the comments and that is that “CO₂ does not radiate at 15µ because it “heats” N₂ instead”.

It is also to be noted that we consider only the T/V process because it is only the vibrational modes that interact with IR radiation.

There are also rotational/translational and rotational/vibrational transfers.

The same argument used for T/V applies also for the R/T and R/V processes in LTE – e.g there is no net energy transfer between these modes in LTE even if for example the R/T process has a much higher probability than a T/V process.

For the sake of clarity we don’t mention specifically the R/T and R/V processes.

Caveat2

The result established here is a statistical thermodynamics bulk property.

This property is of course not sufficient to establish the whole dynamics of a system at all time and space scales.

If that was our ambition – and it is not – then we would have to consider boundary conditions and macroscopic mass, momentum and energy transfers, e.g convection, conduction, phase changes, lapse rates etc.

More specifically this result doesn’t contradict the trivial observation that if one changes the parameters of the system, for example composition, pressure, radiation intensity and spectrum, etc, then the dynamics of the system change too.

Yet it contradicts the notion that once these parameter are fixed there is a net transfer of energy from CO₂ to the troposphere. There is not.

Caveat3

It will probably appear obvious to most of you but it has also to be repeated.

This result says little about comparisons between the dynamics of 2 very different systems such as, for example, an Earth without oceans and atmosphere, and an Earth with oceans and atmosphere. Clearly the dynamics will be very different but it stays that in the case of the real Earth with an atmosphere in LTE, there will be no net energy transfer from the CO₂ to the atmosphere.

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Greg F
August 31, 2010 3:44 pm

Reasonable logic leads to bizarre result,
If true you should be able to setup some very surprising experiments and earn a nobel. Remember in real physics, awards are given when the experimental physicists prove what the theoretical physicists propose.
I can’t imagine experiments proving the claims of this article. As such it should be tossed as quickly as it can be.
fyi: Simple experiment – fire a high energy laser vertically through the atmosphere that is absorbed by CO2, but only by CO2. There must be a laser frequency that would do that.
Then measure the air temp with the laser on and off.
Experiments don’t get much simpler, and as I said if the air doesn’t heat, Vonk has won himself a Nobel.

August 31, 2010 4:14 pm

Tom,
I don’t want to take the time to address this again. I’m still frustrated that you wouldn’t listen before and my time is more valuable than this. This is incorrect:
Clearly the dynamics will be very different but it stays that in the case of the real Earth with an atmosphere in LTE, there will be no net energy transfer from the CO₂ to the atmosphere.
There is radiative input into the CO2 at the bottom of the column, it is emitted at the top of the column. Without the CO2’s presence the atmosphere would be cooler. The NET energy transfer happened when the CO2 was initially added, after that it is a constant but you should reword this.
As more CO2 is added, there is another net energy transfer initiated as you now admit in your post. The CO2 is capturing a portion of energy- global warming.
Clarity of phrasing would help your post a lot.
You’re whole long worded revised post says, ‘no change in CO2, no new energy delay, no new warming”. Where you go wrong, is to claim no energy transfer by CO2. The energy transfer occurs when the CO2 is added.
Correct your phrasing to say, at a static point without adding CO2 to the system, no new energy is trapped in the system, and I’m happy.
Of course that’s a ridiculously trivial statement but it is the correct one from this post.

George E. Smith
August 31, 2010 4:14 pm

“”” Nick Stokes says:
August 31, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Tom,
Do you think that ozone, by absorbing UV, heats the stratosphere? “””
I see no difference in the argument. Same goes for H2O vapor absorbing incoming solar spectrum radiation in the 750 nm to maybe 4.0 micron range. The absorption is real, the energy loss to the surface is real; evidently the heating of the atmosphere is what is not real.

John Eggert
August 31, 2010 4:22 pm

Scott Said:
I don’t dispute the greenhouse effect, but your observation can be explained without it too. Water vapor’s heat capacity, ~1.9 J/(g*K), is higher than dry air’s, ~1.0 J/(g*K). Thus, with the same energy output, the humid air will drop temperature more slowly. Also contributing to the slower temperature change is that some of the energy may go into condensing H2O onto surfaces (the opposite of evaporative cooling) once the dew point is reached.
Scott:
The heat capacity of moist air is ha + xhm, where ha is 1.006 for dry air and hm is your 1.84 (not 1.9) and x is the humidity ratio. For FULLY SATURATED (100% RH) air a 30C, x is 0.027. At 10C, it drops to 0.0076. Thus the change in heat capacity from 0% RH air to 100%RH air at 30 C is from 1.006 to 1.055. A 4% change. At 10C, the change is to 1.018. A 2% change. You can’t come close to fully explaining slowed cooling at night by the difference in heat capacity of completely dry versus saturated air. On a relatively dry day, the RH is certainly way above 0%, hence the difference in heat capacity of air on a relatively dry day versus a humid day is very small indeed.
Condensation is a heating process (or heat releasing if you prefer). On hot humid summer days, I don’t generally see much condensation until the temperature drops, hence I would argue that there is little or no condensation effect either.
The difference between the model and the reality, if the graphic that Anthony showed does indeed show such a disconnect can be explained by another means. My opinion is that the logarithmic change in heat absorption with increasing CO2 is only correct for lower levels of CO2. As levels increase, the rate of increase of heat absorption with increase in CO2 concentration drops off to near zero as CO2 concentration gets high. This levelling is seen in other areas where one considers radiant heat transfer in the atmosphere (blast furnace calcs, hot house calcs, etc.)
JE

George E. Smith
August 31, 2010 4:24 pm

“”” MartinGAtkins says:
August 31, 2010 at 2:16 pm
R Stevenson says:
August 31, 2010 at 10:41 am
Tom asks the question which is at the heart of AGW – does increasing CO2 in the atmosphere absorb more IR photons and thereby increase the air temperature.
Not in our lower troposphere because the density of the CO2 layer is sufficient enough to absorb all the LW radiation available to it.
If not then does retention time of photons increase and if so does it matter.
The retention time doesn’t increase. The photon received is almost in an instant re-emitted. The work done by CO2 is a product of its absorption wavelength 15 µm which would not be caught by the other gases and so would radiate directly into space and be lost. “””
Well CO2 most certainly does not absorb all of the LW radiation available to it. The surface emission spectrum; at least from ana average Temeprature surface can be expected to contain significant energy between 5.0 microns and 80.0 microns (about 98% of it.
CO2 can absorb much of the range from about 13.5 to 16.5 Microns. If the Spectrum is roughly black body like; then 25% of the energy would reside below the peak wavelength which is 10.1 microns. So there is a good chunk of the spectrum that CO2 doesn’t touch.
And in the lower atmospehre the mean lifetime of the CO2 excited states is longer than the mean time between collisions; so that energy becomes thermalized before a spontaneous photon emission from the CO2 can occur. In the higher less dense regions in the stratospehre the time between collisins is great enough for spontaneous decay to occur.

DougB
August 31, 2010 4:28 pm

Tom W. above has it correct in my view, crystal clear:
“System is in LTE
A small amount of energy is added (in this case as IR radiation)
LTE is restored
But this is a NEW LTE! At a higher temperature than the old. And all of the modes, those of CO2 and of N2 will have a higher average energy (by the Equipartition Theorem). So you have added energy to one mode – a CO2 vibrational mode – and eventually this extra energy gets spread out into the others – 3 of which are translational modes of N2.”
To me this is obvious.

INGSOC
August 31, 2010 4:34 pm

George E. Smith says:
August 31, 2010 at 11:40 am
“As a consequence, it is also true, that any single (serial numbered) molecule, will at some time or other occupy any possible position within your MB distribution.”
I knew someone was going to bring up Quantum Mechanics… My head is going to explode!
🙂

mircea
August 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Tom says: August 31, 2010 at 2:10 pm
“but the composition of the atmosphere is changing, hence there is no LTE”
– The composition of the atmosphere is changing but while CO2 increases H2O vapours decrease and as such there is LTE. Of course here we talk about an idealised atmosphere.
– More details about CO2/H2O are here: http://global-warming-explained.blogspot.com/2010/08/more-co2-means-less-h2o-dr.html

899
August 31, 2010 4:44 pm

“Of course the transient net energy transfer from CO₂ to N₂ will not continue forever because else the mixture would transform into superheated plasma.”
Well, no, it would not.
In order for that to take place more energy yet would have to be introduced into the system.
Rather, what would happen —in the entirely theoretical sense— is perpetual motion, which presumes that all of the energy trapped in the system remains within the system and is able to do work infinitely.
But otherwise …
🙂

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 4:50 pm

Oliver Ramsay says: “we’ve all tried spending the same dollar in two different places and we know how that works out . . .”
kfg answers: ” . .quite well if done by two different carriers. If it is spent in a third place we may even receive our own dollar back again after having spent it. How cool is that?”
Evidently cool enough for the US government to do it a trillion times in one year and call it “stimulus spending”.

Truth and lies are faced alike; their port, taste, and proceedings are the same, and we look upon them with the same eye. I find that we are not only remiss in defending ourselves from deceit, but that we seek and offer ourselves to be gulled; we love to entangle ourselves in vanity, as a thing conformable to our being.
Michel de Montaigne
The Father of Modern Skepticism
1533-1592

kfg
August 31, 2010 4:51 pm

INGSOC says: “I knew someone was going to bring up Quantum Mechanics…”
Nah! He’s jes sayin’ that no two billiard balls on the table can occupy the same at the same time, but over a series of games any particular billiard ball will eventually have occupied all spaces.
Pure Newtonian objects in random motion.

John Eggert
August 31, 2010 5:05 pm

Mircea:
Your assertions about increasing CO2 leading to decreasing H2O is not supported by the paper you reference (see http://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/E&E_21_4_2010_08-miskolczi.pdf). Miskolczi only states that he has observed no change in the amount of IR from the earth, even as CO2 increases. Regarding water, he asserts that Hansen et. al. have overestimated the water feed back. This is not the same as saying that increasing CO2 automatically leads to decreasing H2O.
JE

Steve Fitzpatrick
August 31, 2010 5:12 pm

After reading this post carefully, I must conclude that it is more obscure and meaningless than the last.
Really, there are only two alternatives that are important. Either 1) increasing CO2 in the atmosphere is expected to cause the Earth’s surface (and troposphere) to warm, or 2) increasing CO2 in the atmosphere is not expected to warm the Earth’s surface (and troposphere). Discussions of LTE are totally irrelevant, and only confuse and distract. Any analysis based on LTE tells us exactly nothing about how the Earth’s surface temperature should respond to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. I find the application of an equilibrium analysis to a non-equilibrium system a pointless waste of time.
If Tom Vonk believes that a LTE analysis provides insight about the expected effect of increasing CO2 in the atmosphere on surface temperatures, then I sure which he would say what that insight is.

MikeA
August 31, 2010 5:30 pm

Anthony can we perhaps have a presentation on the Adiabatic Lapse Rate to go with the diagram. It obviously needs some sort of theory to falsify it?

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 5:36 pm

John Eggert says:
August 31, 2010 at 4:22 pm
The heat capacity of moist air is ha + xhm, where ha is 1.006 for dry air and hm is your 1.84 (not 1.9) and x is the humidity ratio. For FULLY SATURATED (100% RH) air a 30C, x is 0.027. At 10C, it drops to 0.0076. Thus the change in heat capacity from 0% RH air to 100%RH air at 30 C is from 1.006 to 1.055. A 4% change. At 10C, the change is to 1.018. A 2% change. You can’t come close to fully explaining slowed cooling at night by the difference in heat capacity of completely dry versus saturated air. On a relatively dry day, the RH is certainly way above 0%, hence the difference in heat capacity of air on a relatively dry day versus a humid day is very small indeed.

Sorry, but no.
Air 30C, sea level, 17% RH = 42 kJ/kG
Air 30C, sea level, 93% RH = 95 kJ/kG
The wetter air contains over twice as much heat.
See psychometric calculator here: http://www.uigi.com/WebPsycH.html
Your figures were for sensible heat alone. You have to take latent heat into account for enthalpy.

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 5:40 pm

Testing:
Two quite different comments of mine in a row were held up in the “special” moderation queue. What’s up with that?

kfg
August 31, 2010 5:52 pm

Dave Springer says: “. . . cool enough for the US government to do it a trillion times in one year . . .”
Ah, no. I didn’t say nuttin’ ’bout no havin’ one real dollar and one imaginary dollar and tryin’ to spend ’em both. That thar’s the road to daaaaaaamnation; even if you try to spend ’em both in the same place.
(No, actually, I haven’t got a clue why I’m talking like this. Thanks for asking and I’ll have to look into it)

Oliver Ramsay
August 31, 2010 6:00 pm

I was inspired by Anthony’s Urinal post to do my own research.
I set up an observation post with a full view of the entrance and exit of a public convenience structure for gentlemen.
The initial state of affairs was a steady stream of men entering and exiting the facility at the rate of one per minute. I noted that there was a group of ten individuals performing ablutions at any time that I stuck my head inside. Those entering and exiting kept perfect time; one per minute.
After 3 hours a coffee vendor set up shop nearby and, very soon, the rate at which the punters were entering the toilets increased to one every 45 seconds and, quite astonishingly, the rate at which they were leaving increased to exactly match the entry rate. Observation of the interior revealed that, at any time, there were ten people washing their hands; just as there had been before.
For a while I mused upon the variable elasticity of the human bladder and the diuretic effects of caffeine.
When I repeated the experiment the following day, everything unfolded exactly as it had on the first occasion, with the exception that, after the coffee-induced rate increase there were always 12 people milling around the sinks instead of ten.
I have to say that I never actually saw anybody go out by the In door, but that’s another story.
Clearly, everybody accelerated their micturition, their ablutions and their exit uniformly. Why did the number of lingerers increase on day 2? Were they in some way responsible for the haste of the egressors?
Or, was it just a dream?

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 6:16 pm

kfg
If you spend the same dollar in two places one of them has to be imaginary. That’s how stimulus spending works. Uncle Sam trades an imaginary dollar to Chairman Mao for a real dollar. Sam then gives the real dollar to John Q. Public who uses it to buy a coffee pot from Mao to replace a broken one. Sam collects a tax on the transaction, Mao collects a tax on the transaction, and John can make his morning java. Everyone’s happy for the moment but a lot of us suspect someone is going to get screwed in the end and it probably won’t be Sam or Mao.

sky
August 31, 2010 6:20 pm

The thesis that the troposphere is everywhere in LTE, thus all collisional energy transfers between molecules are symmetrically bilateral leaves me perplexed. While I’m always reminding everyone that GHGs produce no energy on their own, it seems to go further by saying, in effect, that air cannot be warmed by radiative means.
This leaves many unanswered questions. Granted that moist convection plays a central role in heating the bulk constituents of the troposhere, what happens to terrestrial radiation at, say, 15 microns selectively abosrbed by CO2 (and overlapping water vapor). The claim that “A local equilibrium will be established at each point and in this equilibrium the rate of the process (1) will be exactly equal to the rate of the process (2)” seems to preclude extinction via scattering to other wavenumbers through molecular collisions with N2. Yet 15 micron extinction is what is observed when the Earth is viewed from space. Surely, that energy does not simply disappear from the universe.
An explanation of this contradiction from Tom Vonk would be much appreciated.

August 31, 2010 6:27 pm

George E. Smith says: August 31, 2010 at 4:14 pm
” Nick Stokes says:August 31, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Tom, Do you think that ozone, by absorbing UV, heats the stratosphere? “
“I see no difference in the argument.”

Neither do I, and that’s my point. Ozone absorption of UV clearly does warm the stratosphere. Temperature increases with altitude. The absorbed heat is transmitted down to the tropopause, where GHG emission outwards is sufficient to reverse the gradient.

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 6:29 pm

kfg:
P.S. The imaginary dollar that Sam spent to buy the real dollar comes from John’s increased future earnings because he’ll be more productive when he has a cup of Joe in the morning.
The biggest Ponzi Scheme evah!

August 31, 2010 6:34 pm

@sky – “Yet 15 micron extinction is what is observed when the Earth is viewed from space.”
No, it is NOT what is observed. The atmosphere is totally opaque at 15 microns. What is observed from space is the energy emitted from the stratopause, and above, at 15 microns.

Bill Illis
August 31, 2010 6:36 pm

“MikeA says:
August 31, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Anthony can we perhaps have a presentation on the Adiabatic Lapse Rate to go with the diagram. It obviously needs some sort of theory to falsify it?”
This is what is really happening in the atmosphere. It is reality versus theory.
The temperature (or let’s say the energy in the atmosphere) declines by 0.65C each 100 metres above the ground. It continues declining at this rate until about 10 kms high where it becomes a constant rate and the surface energy is then no longer being slowed down and more than 50% of it is just being emitted toward space (it might bounce around and continue to take a random walk in the upper atmosphere after that but it is not coming back to the ground).
Everything else is theory.
It is like 10 kms of insulation above us (and N2 and O2 obviously play a role in that in addition to the greenhouse gases).
Nobody has actually measured a photon’s path in the atmosphere, how far it travels, which molecules it interacts with, how long it spends in each molecule and where it goes after that.
But we can estimate some of those numbers. On average, without additional energy being added by the Sun each day, 4.5 W/m2 is emitted from the Earth each hour. Given the average collison rate and relaxation timeline for an energized molecule, each photon random walks through …
… 62 billion individual molecules in the atmosphere before it is emitted to space at 10 kms high;
… spends an average 0.000005 seconds in each molecule; and,
… travels an average 0.0001 millimetres before it is absorbed again.
The average photon takes 200,000 years to be emitted from the Sun’s surface after being generated in the core and it takes 86 hours for the average photon from the Sun to enter the atmosphere before it is emitted back to space (or after 86 hours they would all be gone give or take the oceans holding onto them a little longer).
That is a lot of really big and really small numbers. We need actual measurements to be able tell what is really going on rather than theory.

Dave Springer
August 31, 2010 6:59 pm

Oliver Ramsay says:
August 31, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Clearly, everybody accelerated their micturition, their ablutions and their exit uniformly. Why did the number of lingerers increase on day 2? Were they in some way responsible for the haste of the egressors?
Or, was it just a dream?

Actually there’s a good analogy to GHG warming there and I think yo meant to make it.
If you timed how long each individual person stayed inside the commode it would have increased. They were still entering and exiting at the same rate but there were 10% more of them on the inside. That’s what increased CO2 does. The same amount of heat is entering and exiting the ocean/atmosphere as before but there’s more heat trapped inside the system at any one time with more CO2.