Some days I think it can’t get any crazier out there, and then I’m surprised yet again.
From Dr. Loonie Lonnie Thompson, of Ohio State University:
“I think we’ll have to get off this planet for glaciology to have a future,” Thompson, a climate researcher with the Byrd Polar Research Center said at an international symposium at Ohio State University.
His next surprise came just last month, when he and a crew of OSU researchers went to Papua New Guinea’s largest ice cap to collect ice core samples.
The temperature was 50 degrees Fahrenheit when it should have been at least at the freezing point. Rain, not snow, fell on the crew.
The rain and the warm air threatened to erase the ice cap.
“That’s the scary part – the surprises and the things you don’t understand,” Thompson said.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/23/1788090/vanishing-ice-caps-have-experts.html#ixzz0xRKGw8MB
=================================
Dr. Thompson if you leave Earth, will you leave the ice core data archives behind that Steve McIntyre has been asking for, for years now?
Kaufman et al: Obstructed by Thompson and Jacoby
“Thus, several years later, not just me, but young Arctic scientists are frustrated by data obstruction by Thompson and Jacoby. Unfortunately, these young scientists are unable or unwilling to record these frustrations in public and the records remain incomplete to this day.”
richard telford says:
August 23, 2010 at 7:44 am
The *science*,in this case, as proposed by Lonnie Thompson rather falls by its own weight.
RockyRoad says:
August 23, 2010 at 10:03 am
“James Cameron’s key climate quotes:
Director James Cameron Unleashed: Calls for gun fight with global warming skeptics: ‘I want to call those deniers out into the street at high noon and shoot it out with those boneheads’…”
Yes, and he used the offensive “D” word as well!
A book I have titled El Niño by J. M. Nash (2002) has many pages expounding on the innovative, exhausting, and amazing work being done by Lonnie Thompson. I was quite surprised to read of his subsequent lack of cooperation with others trying to understand the growth and decline of glaciers – about which he now says: “That’s the scary part – the surprises and the things you don’t understand,”.
~ ~ ~
Locally [Bowers Field, WA (KELN)] , on August 17th it was 86 F at Noon and 100 F at 4 PM.. Today at Noon it is 74 F and the forecast is for a high of 77 F.
Moral: Weather changes.
“I think we’ll have to get off this planet for glaciology to have a future,”
You folks may be missing the point of the quote. He doesn’t say galciologists, I think the correct interpretation of the quote is:
Mankind will have to leave the planet for ice to have a future.
To which I respond, “Not as long as I have sufficient fossil fuel derived energy to power my freezer. Hey Sweetheart, another Jack and Coke on the rocks, please.”
Perhaps they should have gone to the Alps
http://www.ifyouski.com/ski-extras/more/news/10-08-20/20_Aug_-_Huge_Snowfalls_in_the_Swiss_Alps_Argentina_New_Zealand.aspx
August snowfalls of up to half a metre on the highest ski areas.
“Text message helps save Mont Blanc mountain climbers”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11027329
“By now we were desperate, it was unbearably cold and we were risking hypothermia, stuck on a tiny ledge above a huge drop.”
George E. Smith says: about Sci-American/red cover/”The End”
Some of this issue is as you imply but much is not. The last page under the heading “Shaky Grounds” by Steve Mirsky is interesting, funny, and sad all at the same time. And the cover title “The End” is not about AGW as some might think from what you have written.
~ ~ ~
This and other “science” magazines often carry interesting articles that I would miss if I did not subscribe to them. Paying the cost of entry to one article behind a “pay wall” is about as costly as a subscription to the journal. I’ve considered not getting such magazines but come to a solution opposite yours. I read the science parts and laugh at the pseudo-science. Another thought is that if you pay for TV reception you could likely pay for 2 or 3 magazine subscriptions for each month of service. You don’t have to read all the material or respect the editor’s choices. Likewise, with TV, you pay for a lot of things you don’t want, won’t watch, and would hate it if you did. Will you unsubscribe the TV also?
You cant handle the truth, Anthony is a hyporcite and this blog is turning into an RC style snipping-fest with anyone who makes him look ridiculous.
REPLY: Well I beg to differ. So far your posts have appeared within the policy of the blog (witness this one), and you haven’t successfully refuted what I’ve had to say about the issue, except to leave ad homs like the above. Nobody else is getting snipped, because they are staying within policy- Anthony
….And IF Lonnie Thompson really went to Papua New Guinea, it’s not surprising he didn’t find any ice for the Scotch… Highest peak Mount Wilhelm is at 4509 m ASL…
[That is above me…LOL]… Puncak Jaya aka Carstensz Pyramid, after Jan Carstensz who were lucky to see the glaciers on a rare clear day in 1623 [FREAK ANTARCTIC
OUTBREAK above 4000 m ASL???] is in the Irian Jaya province of Indonesia… Jan Carstensz was a Dutch explorer and he was
ridiculed in the Netherlands because nobody thought snow and ice could exist that
close to the equator…[wiki]
“REPLY: Perhaps you should ask that question of Dr. Thompson, anyone who suggests we all have to leave Earth to save his profession is really off the rails. ”
OH I thought he meant that the Glaciologists would have to leave the Earth in order to find new glaciers to molest.
No credit to the sciences either way.
PS! Another Guinea, Guinea-Conacry, may receive snow!!! That is if you are to believe
a German site. Last time snow fell, was in 1951…??!! Little town called Mali-Ville at
1400 m ASL…The very recent cold temp record there is +1.4C…[some 13 or so degrees N…] Maybe no readings in 1951,
regrettably…There is [was?] some site about possible snowfall countries [in a 100 years
perspective…] and a majority of African countries may have snow then, if not even
sticking…
Besides all of this ice decapitation is just weather. The last pictures I have seen of Mt Kilimanjaro showed that there was plenty of snow on the top of that peak; at least in the wintertime; so it comes and it goes.
I would bemoan the local loss of the forests on those plains, rather than the loss of icecap itself. I’m under the impression that not too much melt water makes it down rivers to where those tribes live; because it mostly sublimes.
And the mountain evidently has some very special local and typically desert like Flora that isn’t found anywhere else; so it would seem that episodes of low moisture have happened before; and evidently many times to develop those kinds of low water need plants. I have talked with one person who actually has done the hike to the top and he reported that the ice was in retreat at the time; which was actually “sometime in the last 15 years.”
I’m all in favor of preserving forestry where we have alternatives. To simply cut it to burn it; or to turn very poor rain forest type soil, into even worse agricultural use; or worse than that to grow ethanoleum in its place is inexcusable.
I can’t fault erstwhile primitive nomadic tribes, whose short life spans perhaps hid from them, the errors of their forestry management practices.
@ur momisugly
” Vince Causey says:
August 23, 2010 at 7:59 am
“The temperature was 50 degrees Fahrenheit when it should have been at least at the freezing point.”
The pendant in me wishes to point out that “at least at the freezing point” should be reworded to “at most at the freezing point.”
REPLY: And the journalist in me says “don’t rewrite the spoken quotes of people” – Anthony”
And the pedant in ME wishes to point out that a pendant is something that hangs from the neck, while a pedant is something almost no one can spell, much less say.
Pete says:
And the pedant in ME wishes to point out that a pendant is something that hangs from the neck, while a pedant is something almost no one can spell, much less say.
Good one. Hey, was it you that called in a rules violation on Julie Inkster this past Saturday, or just another observant pedant?
http://www.nationalledger.com/ledgerpop/article_272634225.shtml
“”” John F. Hultquist says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:03 pm
George E. Smith says: about Sci-American/red cover/”The End”
Some of this issue is as you imply but much is not. The last page under the heading “Shaky Grounds” by Steve Mirsky is interesting, funny, and sad all at the same time. And the cover title “The End” is not about AGW as some might think from what you have written. “””
Well John they would have to do a great deal of inferring, to make up for my lack of implying, that the issue is about AGW. The only part in which I even mentioned AGW, was in the departure essay of Jeffery D. Sachs; whcih was little but an aside to the main story of the issue.
“”””” And then enjoy reading a whole issue about why humans won’t be here for ever; well even here, won’t be here for ever; and surprisingly some say, forever itself, will not be here forever. “””””
Now doesn’t that give some clues to the nature of the issues in this issue; and isn’t it entirely devoid of reference to AGW.
Reading between the lines, is NOT a licence to write something between the lines, that isn’t there.
Let’s do it in chronological order…
MikeC says:
August 23, 2010 at 11:24 am
[You can make your point without the insults and snarkiness directed at our host. ~dbs, mod.]
………………………………………………………………. then…
MikeC says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:05 pm
You cant handle the truth, Anthony is a hyporcite and this blog is turning into an RC style snipping-fest with anyone who makes him look ridiculous.
REPLY: Well I beg to differ. So far your posts have appeared within the policy of the blog (witness this one), and you haven’t successfully refuted what I’ve had to say about the issue, except to leave ad homs like the above. Nobody else is getting snipped, because they are staying within policy- Anthony
and here is what was snipped from the 11:24 AM post
Re: Anthony’s reply, August 23, 2010 at 10:17 am
Any of your excuses are no more valid than excuses offered by various climate scientists for hiding their data. If some one has used your data preliminarily, then you have the opportunity to make that point to refute their conclusions when you publish.
When this project got started, a key characteristic was openness. At no time did Anthony Watts say he’d start crying like a baby and dive under the table when things didn’t go his way, regardless if the analysis came from JohnV or Matt Menne. And I wouldn’t have driven a bunch of whiney ass teenagers from state to state if I thought for a moment that my gas money or time were going to be used for partisan purposes. Keep your word, quit acting like Loonie Thompson, Michael Mann and Phil Jones… RELEASE THE DATA… lay the cards on the table and allow them to fall as they will.
REPLY: I added my full response, since you saw it before I finished. I’ve decided to leave this post intact to demonstrate just how juvenile MikeC has been acting with comments, though technically I should snip this comment. As I said, I most certainly will release my data in an SI (properly per regular academic procedure) when I and my co-authors publish. I am under no obligation to do so beforehand. I’ll point out that with all the failures of disclosure you cite above with other scientists came AFTER they published their paper and people asked for the data and code, not before. That’s the big difference. Plus, all the photography and notes are online right now at surfacestations.org, only the final data and analysis remains to be published. It will done academically and appropriately. If waiting for that bothers you, tough noogies. -Anthony
MikeC,
The data will be released when the author is ready to release the paper. That’s how it works. Throwing out insults won’t make it happen faster.
MikeC says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:05 pm
You cant handle the truth, Anthony is a hyporcite and this blog is turning into an RC style snipping-fest with anyone who makes him look ridiculous.
____________________
I’m with Anthony on this. The only one who looks ridiculous is you. You might also consider words that are under-lined in red as possible misspells. May the truth find you open-minded.
How it’s usually done is irrelevant because Anthony promised to do things differently by keeping everything out in the open… and he did have everything out in the open until Menne 2010. But even Anthony’s claims about Menne and the gang at NCDC coming after him do not justify going back on his word. So I say again, Anthony, RELEASE THE DATA.
REPLY: Nope, sorry. Final data with final paper. NCDC changed the game with their unprofessional behavior. Now I’ll do it like all other academics (except the ones you cited above) and publish it all in an SI in sync with paper publication. You’ll just have to wait like everyone else. Be as annoyed as you wish. You point in forcing it is quite frankly, just baseless. If I was withholding data AFTER publication, you’d have an argument.
I’ll also point out that the raw data is all there at surfacestations.org for anyone to look at right now, which is far and above what the others you cited have done. That’s way more open than anyone else you cite. And with a preliminary release of the data improperly used by Menne et al, I’m still ahead of all of them. – Anthony
Nice one MikeC.
You’ve clearly transcended your guardians expectations, your teachers predictions but thanks for that hidden talent that none of the former detected.
Your ability to make one chortle is, simply, superb. And I really mean the adjective!
Keep the narrative flowing. Your provision of meaningful data is fecund and admirable. Unlike Mr T whose life appears to revolve around finding someone to fund trips to out of the way places for the occasional agenda supporting narrative?
You is a bloke.
Release the Data?
How strange!
This is not Climatology as we know it.
Methinks that you are ask the right question to the wrong person!
What Matt Menne or John V did with your data, preliminary or unprofessional is completely irrelevant. Your promise to US needs to be upheld. YOU NEED TO RELEASE THE DATA
REPLY: And it has been, with preliminary data released and used by these people, and will be in entirety, at the appropriate time, with publication. In the meantime the entire project is online for anyone too look at. Shouting won’t help. – Anthony
Ask yourself just one question MC.
Who responds to your questions without censure?
Let’s pretend that the questions you posed were unwelcome, or even heretical, who let those questions visible?
Questions defeat Dogma. Answers may be subject to interpretation of what questions were asked.
“I think we’ll have to get off this planet for glaciology to have a future,”
I read this as a plea by Dr Thompson for specific satellite monitoring of glaciers; probably providing him and other glaciologists with a lot more and more accurate data that will support several more decades worth of analysis.
I’m guessing everybody else is right and this isn’t his meaning but can we be absolutely sure?
That wasn’t the deal, Anthony… It was openess, transparancy, no games, let the science be out in the open… YOU NEED TO RELEASE THE DATA
REPLY: OK this is the last comment either of us will be making on this, because additional comments on this subject are going to be snipped because they have already been asked and answered. Your insistence is redundant, and the process of the publication and review with several co-authors has already started, I’m not changing anything just because you’ve decided to raise an imagined issue that you feel you must harp on, while ignoring the real facts central to the article of Dr. Thompson. Like I said, all will be released with the publication. After that anybody can use the data beat me up any way they see fit. Be as upset as you wish, hurl insults and shout all you want, but that’s how the process is currently happening and will proceed to finish. This project has been open and transparent, and all the data, raw and preliminary collated data is on surfacestations.org Final data with paper, in an SI, just like the rest of the science world does it. – Anthony
Just wanted to say I eagerly await the publishing of the surface stations project, Anthony. MikeC can [snip] for all I care since he is clearly trolling anyway.
Thanks for all you have done Anthony!
The REST of us still support you.