Foreword: The focus of this essay is strictly altitude placement/change of GHCN stations. While challenge and debate of the topic is encouraged, please don’t let the discussion drift into other side issues. As noted in the conclusion, there remain two significant issues that have not been fully addressed in GHCN. I believe a focus on those issues (particularly UHI) will best serve to advance the science and understanding of what GHCN in its current form is measuring and presenting, post processing. – Anthony

By Steven Mosher, Zeke Hausfather, and Nick Stokes
Recently on WUWT Dr. McKitrick raised several issues with regard to the quality of the GHCN temperature database. However, McKitrick does note that the methods of computing a global anomaly average are sound. That is essentially what Zeke Hausfather and I showed in our last WUWT post. Several independent researchers are able to calculate the Global Anomaly Average with very little differences between them.
GISS, NCDC, CRU, JeffId/RomanM, Tamino, ClearClimateCode, Zeke Hausfather, Chad Herman, Ron Broberg, Residual Analysis, and MoshTemp all generally agree. Given the GHCN data, the answer one gets about the pace of global warming is not in serious dispute. Whether one extrapolates as GISS does or not, whether one uses a least squares approach or a spatial averaging approach, whether one selects a 2 degree bin or a 5 degree bin, whether one uses an anomaly period of 1961-90 or 1953-1982, the answer is the same for virtually all practical purposes. Debates about methodology are either a distraction from the global warming issues at hand or they are specialist questions that entertain a few of us. Those specialist discussions may refine the answer or express our confidence in the result more explicitly, but the methods all work and agree to a high degree.
As we noted before, the discussion should therefore turn and remain focused on the data issues. How good is GHCN as a database and how serious are its shortcomings? As with any dataset, those of us who analyze data for a living look for several things. We look for errors, we look for bias, we look at the sampling characteristics, and we look at adjustments. Dr. McKitrick’s recent paper covers several topics relative to the make up and changes in GHCN temperature data. In particular he covers changes over time in the sampling of GHCN stations. He repeats a familiar note: over time the stations representing the temperature data set have changed. There is, as most people know, a fall off in stations reporting shortly after 1990 and then again in 2005. To be sure there are other issues that he raises as well. Those issues, such as UHI, will not be addressed here. Instead, the focus will be on one particular issue: altitude. We confine our discussion to that narrow point in order to remove misunderstandings and refocus the issue where it rightly belongs.
McKitrick writes:
Figure 1-8 shows the mean altitude above sea level in the GHCN record. The steady increase is consistent with a move inland of the network coverage, and also increased sampling in mountainous locations. The sample collapse in 1990 is clearly visible as a drop not only in numbers but also in altitude, implying the remote high-altitude sites tended to be lost in favour of sites in valley and coastal locations. This happened a second time in 2005. Since low-altitude sites tend to be more influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land surface modification, the failure to maintain consistent altitude of the sample detracts from its statistical continuity.
There are several claims here.
- The increase in altitude is consistent with a move inland and out of valleys
- The increase in altitude is consistent with more sampling in mountainous locations.
- Low level sites tend to be influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land use modifications
A simple study of the metadata available in the GHCN database shows that the stations that were dropped do not have the characteristics that McKitrick supposes. As Nick Stokes documents, the process of dropping stations is more related to dropping coverage in certain countries rather than a direct effort to drop high altitude stations . McKitrick also get the topography specifics wrong. He supposes that the drop in thermometers shifts the data out of mountainous inland areas into the valleys and low level coastal areas, areas dominated by urbanization and land use changes. That supposition is not entirely accurate as a cursory look at the metadata shows.
There are two significant periods when stations are dropped; Post 1990 and again in 2005. As Stokes show below.
FIGURE 1: Station drop and average altitude of stations.
The decrease in altitude is not caused by a move into valleys, lowland and coastal areas. As the following figures show, the percentage of coastal stations is stable, mountainous stations are still represented and the altitude loss more likely comes from the move out of mountainous valleys .
A simple summary of the total inventory shows this
| ALL STATIONS | Count | Total | Percent |
| Coastal | 2180 | 7280 | 29.95 |
| Lake | 443 | 7280 | 6.09 |
| Inland | 4657 | 7280 | 63.97 |
TABLE 1: Count of Coastal Stations
The greatest drop in stations occurs in the 1990-1995 period and the 2005 period, as shown above McKitrick supposes that the drop in altitude means a heavier weighting for coastal stations. The data do not support this
| Dropped Stations 90-95 | Count | Total | Percent |
| Coastal | 487 | 1609 | 30.27 |
| Lake | 86 | 1609 | 5.34 |
| Inland | 1036 | 1609 | 64.39 |
| Dropped in 2005-06 | |||
| Coastal | 104 | 1109 | 9.38 |
| Lake | 77 | 1109 | 6.94 |
| Inland | 928 | 1109 | 83.68 |
TABLE 2: Count of Coastal Stations dropped
The great march of the thermometers was not a trip to the beach. Neither was the drop in altitude the result of losing a higher percentage of “mountainous” stations.
FIGURE 2: Distribution of Altitude for the entire GHCN Inventory
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| -224.0 | 38.0 | 192.0 | 419.9 | 533.0 | 4670 | 142 |
TABLE 3: descriptive statistics for Altitude of the entire dataset
We can assess the claim about the march of thermometers down the mountains in two ways. First, by looking at the actual distribution of dropped stations.
FIGURE 3 Distribution of altitude for stations dropped in 1990-95
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| -21.0 | 40.0 | 183.0 | 441 | 589.2 | 4613.0 | 29 |
TABLE 4: Descriptive statistics for the Altitude of dropped stations
The character of stations dropped in the 2005 time frame are slightly different. That distribution is depicted below
FIGURE 4 Distribution of altitude for stations dropped in 2005-06
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| –59 | 143.0 | 291.0 | 509.7 | 681.0 | 2763.0 | 0 |
TABLE 5: Descriptive statistics for the Altitude of dropped stations 2005-06
The mean of those dropped is slightly higher than the average station. That hardly supports the contention of thermometers marching out of the mountains. We can put this issue to rest with the following observation from the metadata. GHCN metadata captures the topography surrounding the stations. There are four classifications FL, HI, MT and MV: flat, hilly, mountain and mountain valley. The table below hints at what was unique about the dropout.
| Type | Entire Dataset | Dropped after90-95 | Dropped 2005-06 | Total of two major movements |
| Flat | 2779 | 455 (16%) | 504 (23%) | 959 (43%) |
| Hilly | 3006 | 688 (23%) | 447 (15%) | 1135 (38%) |
| Mountain | 61 | 15 (25%) | 3 (5%) | 18 (30%) |
| Mountain Valley | 1434 | 451(31%) | 155 (11%) | 606 (42%) |
TABLE 6 Station drop out by topography type
There wasn’t shift into valleys as McKitrick supposes, but rather mountain valley sites were dropped. Thermometers left the flatlands and the mountainous valleys. That resulted in a slight decrease in the overall altitude.
That brings us to McKitrick’s third critical claim. McKitrick claims that the dropping of thermometers over weights places more likely to suffer from urbanization and differential land use. “Low level sites tend to be influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land use modifications.” The primary concern that Dr. McKitrick voices is that the statistical integrity of the data may have been compromised. That claim needs to be turned into a testable hypothesis. What exactly has been compromised? We can think of two possible concerns. The first concern is that by dropping higher altitude mountain valley stations one is dropping stations that are colder. Since temperature decreases with altitude this would seem to be a reasonable concern. However, it is not. Some people make this claim, but McKitrick does not. He doesn’t because he is aware that the anomaly method prevents this kind of bias. When we create a global anomaly we prevent this kind of bias from entering the calculation by scaling the measurements of station by the mean of that station. Thus, a station located at 4000m may be at -5C, but if that station is always at -5C its anomaly will be zero. Likewise, a station at sea level in Death Valley that is constantly 110F will also have an anomaly of zero. Anomaly captures the departure from the mean of that station.
What this means is that as long as high altitude stations warm or cool at the same rate as low altitude stations, removing them or adding them will not bias the result.
To answer the question of whether dropping or adding higher altitude stations impacts the trend we have several analytical approaches. First, we could add back in stations. But we can’t add back in GHCN stations that were discontinued. The alternative is to add stations from other databases. Those studies indicate that adding addition stations does not change the trends:
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/using-templs-on-alternative-land.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/arctic-trends-using-gsod-temperature.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/revisiting-bolivia.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/global-landocean-gsod-and-ghcn-data.html
The other approach is to randomly remove more stations from GHCN and measure the effect. If we fear that GHCN has biased the sample by dropping higher altitude stations, we can drop more stations and measure the effect. There are two ways to do this. A Monte Carlo approach and an approach that divides the existing data into subsets:
Nick Stokes has conducted the Monte Carlo experiments. In his approach stations are randomly removed and global averages are recomputed. Stations were removed based on a randomization approach that preferentially removed high altitude stations. This test gives us an estimate of the Standard Error as well.
| Period | Trend of All | Re-Sampled | s.d |
| 1900-2009 | 0.0731 | 0.0723 | 0.00179 |
| 1979-2009 | 0.2512 | 0.2462 | 0.00324 |
| Mean Altitude | 392m | 331m |
Table 7 Monte Carlo test of altitude sensitivity
This particular test consists of selecting all the stations whose series end after 1990. There are 4814 such stations. The sensitivity to altitude reduction was performed by randomly removing higher altitude stations. The results indicate little to no interaction between altitude and temperature trend in the very stations end after the 1990 period.
The other approach, dividing the sample, was approached in two different ways by Zeke Hausfather and Steven Mosher. Hausfather, approached the problem using a paired approach. Grid cells are selected for processing if the have stations both above and below 300m. This eliminates cells that are represented by a single station. Series are then constructed for the stations that lie above 300m and below 300m.
| Period | Elevation > 300m | Elevation <300m |
| 1900-2009 | .04 | .05 |
| 1960-2009 | .23 | .19 |
| 1978-2009 | .34 | .28 |
Table 8. Comparison of trend versus altitude for paired station testing
FIGURE 5: Comparison of temperature Anomaly for above mean and below mean stations
This test indicates that higher elevation stations tend to see higher rates of warming rather than lower rates of warming. Thus, dropping them, does not bias the temperature record upward. The concern lies in the other direction. If anything the evidence points to this: dropping higher altitude stations post 1990 has lead to a small underestimation of the warming trend.
Finally, Mosher, extending the work of Broberg tested the sensitivity of altitude by dividing the existing sample in the following way, by raw altitude and by topography.
- A series containing all stations.
- A series of lower altitude stations Altitude < 200m
- A series of higher altitude stations Altitude >300m
- All Stations in Mountain Valleys
- A series of stations at very high altitude. Altitude >400m
The results of that test are shown below
FIGURE 6 Global anomaly. Smoothing performed for display purpose only with a 21 point binomial filter
The purple series is the highest altitude stations. The red series lower elevation series. Green is the mountain valley stations. A cursory look at the “trend” indicates that the higher elevation stations warm slightly faster than the lower elevation, confirming Hausfather. Dropping higher elevation stations, if it has any effect whatsoever works to lower the average. Stations at lower altitudes tend to warm less rapidly than stations at higher elevations. So quite the opposite of what people assume, the dropping of higher altitude stations is more likely to underestimate the warming rather than over estimate the warming.
Conclusion:
The distribution of altitude does change with time in GHCN v2.mean data. That change does not signal a march of thermometers to places with higher rates of warming. The decrease in altitude is not associated with a move toward or away from coasts. The decrease is not clearly associated with a move away mountainous regions and into valleys, but rather a movement out of mountain valley and flatland regions. Yet, mountain valleys do not warm or cool in any differential manner. Changing altitude does not bias the final trends in any appreciable way.
Regardless of the differential characteristics associated with higher elevation, changes in temperature trends is not clearly or demonstrably one of them. For now, we have no evidence whatsoever that marching thermometers up and down hills makes any contribution to a overestimation of the warming trend.
Dr. McKitrick presented a series of concerns with GHCN. We have eliminated the concern over changes in the distribution of altitude. That merits a correction to his paper. The concerns he raised about latitude, and airports and UHI will be addressed in forthcoming pieces. Given the preliminary work done on airports. (and here) and latitude to date, we can confidently say that the entire debate will come down to two basic issues: UHI and adjustments, the issues over latitude changes and sampling at airports will fold into those discussions. So, here is where the debate stands. The concerns that people have had about methodology have been addressed. As McKitrick notes, the various independent methods get the same answers. The concern about altitude bias has been addressed. As we’ve argued before, the real issue with temperature series is the metadata, its related microsite and UHI issues and adjustments made prior to entry in the GHCN database.
Special thanks to Ron Broberg for editorial support.
References:
A Critical Review of Global Surface Temperature Data Products. Ross McKitrick, Ph.D. July 26, 2010
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I think it is clear that the adjustments done to the raw data is where the devil in the details rests. I have yet to see a reasonable UHI adjustment in the dozens of station in GISS that I have looked into. In all too many cases I have seen older records adjusted down (?) and newer records adjusted down by lesser amounts. Very few locations have experienced de-urbanization … the UHI adjustments should be increasing from old to new not the other way around.
Minor typo, para 4 sentence 2:
‘How good is GHCN as a database and how serious are it’s shortcomings?’
‘it’s’ should be ‘its’. Wouldn’t normally bother but the quality of the writing is good enough to make the error stand out.
I’m still reading, but with the Nepal business fresh in mind I am most interested in the subject of this essay (which I have been awaiting since Mr Mosher dropped hints in the comments over at Lucia’s).
My thanks to all three authors for their ongoing efforts, both for their own sake and for the example they set to others, here and elsewhere.
Dominic
[Thanx, fixed. ~dbs, mod.]
C James,
For better or worse, pre-1970s GHCN v2.mean is by and large the only “raw” data available to use. Post-1970s we have been playing around with using GSOD/ISH and other alternative datasets, though efforts so far indicate that over broad geographic regions they give results similar to GHCN.
You can easy recognize an honest approach when you read it!
Im catching up on details and I really appriciate the “tone” and the willingness invitation to get to the bottom of whats “allmost settled” and not.Its obviuos who will take responsability or not to gain end deserve trust! There are some aspekts and issues in the comments above that I think is intrseting to adress.The “correlation” or Coincidence” that the temprecord year was the same year a big drop in high altitude temps where dropped ?
Eric:
“So the remaining issues are: (i) metadata, (ii) microsite issues, (iii) UHI issues, and (iv) adjustments. Hmmm. Not to wave a crystal ball or anything, but I suspect (iii) and (iv) will be the most meaningful . . .”
I will give you my take.
Adjustments:
1. TOBS. the adjustment is valid, but its needs error bars
2. Instruments: same as above.
3. Station moves: bears investigation
4. Homogeniety: bears investigation
5.UHI: may not be possible.
UHI:
1. Depends ENTIRELY on the definition of Rural, that is metadata.
Microsite:
1. A small effect ( say .1C) is supported by prior studies.
2. The signal will be hard to find, isolated primarily in Tmin
Skeptics should not hope for more than a .15C adjustment
Warmists should Expect a wider band of confidence intervals. They should not fight the proper calculation of uncertainty
“Skeptics should not hope for more than a .15C adjustment”
Steve, that’s premature.
The lapse rate is 6.5C per km.
The average temperature in a grid box, for example, would therefore increase by 0.65C for each decline in the average altitude of just 100 metres. Your numbers are showing changes of that magnitude.
Now to the extent that each individual station is measured/calculated based on its individual anomaly only, this shouldn’t matter. But if it isn’t done strictly by station, anomaly only, it will make a very large difference.
[On the other hand, there is also some evidence that temperatures are increasing faster at the surface than higher up in the troposphere and, therefore, the lapse rate profile is also changing by altitude which will also influence the trend, even in a strict station anomaly only calculation].
Can someone clarify two things for me: (1) How many times a day is
the temperature recorded for the stations (in general), and what has
been used to determine the frequency and choice of time, and (2) How
is it known, or established, or agreed, as to what area of land is represented
by each station. Surely this latter is critical, because the area the station
represents needs to be known so that the proper weight can be applied
when working out the mean. It is the mean temperature per sq kilometre
that is surely the important thing, not just the mean per se.
Or am I way off the track here?
where did Table 6 come from?
Why do these simple to compute figures appear wrong? – and apparently wrong in a way we’ve come to expect!
BillyBob says:
August 19, 2010 at 10:21 am
” Given the GHCN data, the answer one gets about the pace of global warming is not in serious dispute. ”
Considering that all of the GHCN anomaly caluclators use the mean:
1) The min could be going up
2) The max could be going up
3) Or it could be a combination of both
Having looked at the raw GHCN data, I can say the max is not going up. It is the min.
Therefore it is UHI.
BillyBob:
You are correct that the min is going up much faster than the max. One region where this is especially strong is in the Swiss Alps. One problem with your conclusion is that green house gases are expected to reduce night-time cooling and to have a greater effect on the min rather than the max temperature. In the arctic and the in the mountains, the green house effect seems a more likely explanation than UHI for stronger increases in the min compared to the max temperature.
“The greatest drop in stations occurs in the 1990-1995 period”
It’s about 1990-1993, which is exactly where the hockey stick takes off.
I don’t think it’s coincidence at all and even though you guys did a “random” test,
I don’t think dropping the stations was random.
I’d still like to see someone look at the ‘trends’ from the stations that were dropped.
I would be willing to bet there was a reason for dropping those stations.
There is just too much coincidence that many stations were dropped,
and immediately after that, we had catastrophic unprecedented global warming.
EM.
“1) Using data that ‘cuts off’ in 1990 does not capture the major issue which is that the way the data are handled post 1990 introduces a ‘hockey blade’ to the anomaly series. This is accompanied by a change of ‘duplicate number’ in the GHCN.”
Well, That assertion makes no sense. The method for handling duplicates is well documented and many of us, SteveMc, RomanM, Myself and other people skeptical of the record keeping and math don’t share your undocumented concern. Further, we have tested handling duplicates in several ways, even performed monte carlo tests on the duplicates. That’s just standard practice. Finally you cannot assert the introduction of a “hockey blade” without knowledge of a shaft during the same period to compare it to. Ah yes, One can ALSO test the hypothesis by Dropping all stations that have ANY duplicates. The average station has .5 duplicates. The first quartile have NO duplicates. Answer doesnt change. Its getting warmer. its NOT getting cooler since the LIA, its getting warmer. Not cooler. I got zero evidence that it is getting cooler since the LIA. I certainly have seen no evidence supprting a contention that it is getting cooler. And it isnt staying exactly the same.
“2) It ignores the impact of long duration weather changes, such as 30 and 60 year ocean cycles, as it will work through changes of the average VOLATILITY of the stations in the set. Ignoring volatility changes while looking at other attributes in isolation will fail.”
Well the first thing one would have to prove is that there are 30 and 60 year ocean cycles of a DEFINITE volitility. That assertion would rest on data. Presumably SST data. You probably need to start looking at SST data. Start with Bob Tisdale he will help you avoid problems.
“So for starters, pick some individual long lived stations and look at their actual temperatures. When you do that you find either little to no “warming” or amounts consistent with UHI and / or for very long lived stations a rise out of the LIA. Sticking 92% of so of present GHCN thermometers at Airports in the USA (and similar percentages in France and ROW) doesn’t help. Tarmac stays hotter than a grass field, regardless of number of flights.”
1. Looking at the distrubution of trends over time this is not true. The distribution of the trends is slightly skewed to more warming stations than cooling stations. Its somewhat leptokurtic.
2. Tarmac. does stay hotter for a while. but that pesky 2nd law has something to say about it. The TESTABLE question is this. Does the Tarmac stay warm enough long enough to impact the Tmin reading.
For example.
tarmac feild
6pm 10 8
7pm 10 7
8pm 9.5 6.5
9pm 9.0 6.25
10pm 8 6
11pm 7 6
Midnight 6 6
In that TOY case, you see that the tarmac stays warmer longer, BUT by the time reading is taken for the day, it doesnt matter. because we DONT integrate temp over the day, we take the max and the min. Anyway, its a TESTABLE hypothesis that tarmac does, in fact, ( and not just in speculation) stay warm enough, LONG ENOUGH to make a substantial difference. so, test it. Until then its an interesting hypothesis. test it.
Second. It will change depending on the day: Windy days with windspeeds over 7m/sec. The excess heat is rapidly moved out. Airports have long clear fetches and nice laminar flow at the surface. for a reason. Landing planes also help create turbulant mixing at the surface if you dont have wind flow over the surface. Third. Windy and cloudy days are different. See the CRN study. 4th. rainy days are different. Tarmac warmer? yup. certain conditions, for certain periods, of variable magnitude.
So, can airports be hotter. Sure. How much? when? where? how long? all testable. I prefer to focus on testable things. And, the final thing is this. The biggest issue is the potential step change when an airport starts. its the trend baby. The farther you get away from that step change, the LESS it matter.
I ask you to step on scale in 1950. You weigh 175 lbs.
I measure you every year until 2010. By 2010 you weigh 225 lbs.
compute the trend.
Then, I study the records and I find that in 1951, they started weighing you with your SHOES ON. crap. Well I cannot reweigh you in 1950 with shoes on. So I have these choices:
1. throw out all the data and say we dont know.
2. Throw out 1950 and compute the trend
3. Leave 1950 in and realize that if shoes only weigh 2 lbs I dont have that much error. In fact, I can simulate this and see how IMPORTANT that error is to my trend estimation.
4. Make up a shoe adjustment. But I have no record of wether you wore flip flops or hiking boots.. Still I can try a distribution of shoe weights.
5. make confusing statements.
Now, If they changed protocal in 1960 I still have all the same choices, just different answers. In any case, we always and forever face these challenges in real world data analysis. They dont prevent us from knowing things or estimating things. They condition our knowledge but ALL knowledge is conditional. At least, as a skeptic, that is what I practice. conditional acceptance.
Anyway, the airport testing is coming. It’s gunna take a while, to disprove a case that hasnt been made, but its doable.
Mosh wrote:
“I ask you to step on scale in 1950. You weigh 175 lbs.
I measure you every year until 2010. By 2010 you weigh 225 lbs.
No, by 2010 he weighs 225 lbs after his weight has been adjusted. We don’t now what he actually weighs in 2010 – that’s the problem.
“to disprove a case that hasn’t been made”….Now there’s the scientific method in action….nothing like a nice bias to help design your study……and besides, you are studying surface temperature measurements which is a crappy metric for “global warming”. And I used to think you were open-minded.
Latitude:
Provide a hypothesis to test WRT lower altitudes. You want a record that contains ONLY low altitude?
You got it. that record show that OVER TIME low altitude and high altitude warm at the same rate. Change over time=the same.
For grins I compared the lowest site (-224m) with the highest site (4000+meters)
Answer? same trend.
So, I cut the data every way I could LOOKING TO SUPPORT the contention that there was a different trend over time. Could not find one bit of emprical evidence to support that notion. with no evidence to support it, I will retain my rational belief that dropping slightly higher stations makes no difference. On balance, I have a claim that is supported by the evidence. On the data given that belief is warranted. The opposite belief, has no such similar warrant. It is an unwarranted belief.
Now, to make the claim that dropping stations BIASES the record, you have to accept the data. If you want to question the data, then you have no knowledge of bias either way. you have “dont know” . That is just basic epistemology 101.
So: if people want to challenge the data, then they get to claim ignorance. They get to consistently say ” we dont know”. We dont know warmer or colder. we dont know LIA or no LIA. we dont know bias or no bias. We dont know. THAT is a consistent skeptical position. Almost no one takes it.
If we want to claim Knowledge of a bias, then you have to warrant that belief with evidence. You have to point to evidence you take as good and you have to articulate how your conclusion is drawn from that data and why other conclusions are unwarranted.
““to disprove a case that hasn’t been made”….Now there’s the scientific method in action….nothing like a nice bias to help design your study……and besides, you are studying surface temperature measurements which is a crappy metric for “global warming”. And I used to think you were open-minded.”
1. The claim in the paper was that the drop in altitude “comprimised the integrity of the data” As I stated, THIS needs to stated as a TESTABLE hypothesis. It wasnt.
I can see two possible hypotheses. First the silly claim that higher altitude are colder and so removing them hits the TREND. Anyways I tested that as well. Second, the claim that dropping Higher stations Increases the trend.
Thats the claim right;
IF you drop higher stations, THEN you will change the trend.
How do you test that claim?
A. You can add other stations in and measure trend before and after. Did that.
B. You can test the stations that are dropped ( using nicks method). Did that.
C. You can test all stations and stratify your sample by altitude, controlling for geographic homgeniety. Zeke did that.
D. You can stratify by altitude and by topography. I did that.
“you are studying surface temperature measurements which is a crappy metric for “global warming”. And I used to think you were open-minded.”
1. I am not studying surface temperatures. I am testing a claim made in a paper. To test that claim I accept the conditions IMPOSED by the claim.
A. That my method of calculation is correct, which Ross stipulates.
B. That the dataset we are talking about is GHCN
C. That dropping higher ( on average less than 100m) stations is
1. A move INTO valleys and low lands: False
2. A move into areas that will have warming trends ( UHI): No evidence to
support this, so conditionaly false. all conclusions are conditionally
true or false.
2. If you ask ME to pick MY metric? OHC and sea level. Surface temps, sure, look at them, but if I got to pick what should have been measured.. my wayback machine would ask for OHC. Absent that, you got what you got. You draw your conclusion and throw wide ass CIs on the thing.
Steve, you’re going to have to talk English, without inflections, to this biologist.
I didn’t question the data. I accepted the data.
I asked you a question about the collection of the data.
You can trust the data, but not trust the people that collect it, especially when they drop this many stations for no apparent reason.
I would like to see someone look at each station that was dropped, each individual station, and see what the trends were for that individual station.
For my money, it is too much of a coincidence that right after those stations were dropped, we had catastrophic unprecedented global warming.
Does not pass the sniff test….
“No, by 2010 he weighs 225 lbs after his weight has been adjusted. We don’t now what he actually weighs in 2010 – that’s the problem.”
Well, again, you have to be specific about “the adjustments” which adjustments made by who to what record for what reason. And. I dont need to know what he actually weighs, I probably cant. Dont forget, a thermometer is JUST A PROXY for temperature. a scale is just a proxy for what weight REALLY IS.
Next. I have his pants from 1950. he had a 32 in waist. His pants now are a 40in waist.
I also have photos of him.
So too with the temperature record. I have UHA and RSS. I compare over that whole period from 1979 to 2010, what did UHA say about his weight? hmm. they have him growing from 200lbs to 220 lbs. I look at sea level, I look at glaciers. Hmm, All evidence ( of VARYING exactness and bias) point to it being warmer.
I have tried to follow Anthony’s admonition: keep to altitude placement and change of GHCN stations. Sorry, can’t. Too much “hail fellow well met” attitude on the part of those who want climate pseudo-scientists to be scientists. They aren’t, and under the current conditions of their pseudo-field never will be.
S. Mosher writes, “GISS, NCDC, CRU, JeffId/RomanM, Tamino, ClearClimateCode, Zeke Hausfather, Chad Herman, Ron Broberg, Residual Analysis, and MoshTemp all generally agree. Given the GHCN data, the answer one gets about the pace of global warming is not in serious dispute.”
Give us back the RAW DATA and openly show all analysis and then we can talk. Until then, Garbage In, Garbage Out. The current “climate” data has no scientific use since it has not been gathered scientifically. And no claims that using anomalies wipes out significant problems are valid. In my opinion, politeness is turning into cover for lying.
(By the way, when has there been a serious dispute that the climate has warmed since the Little Ice Age?)
When I understand the issues on Climate Audit (only sometimes) and I read the comments by Stephen Mosher, I am impressed. Not so today by any of the current arguments. (Hope this posts properly; I hit a key and the formatting changed)
Latitude:
“”I don’t think it’s coincidence at all and even though you guys did a “random” test,
I don’t think dropping the stations was random.”
1. The documentary evidence is clear on this. You can check Nicks post and others about the reasons. Guess when GHCN was compiled. Basically you have no evidence for supposing a non randomness.
“I’d still like to see someone look at the ‘trends’ from the stations that were dropped.
I would be willing to bet there was a reason for dropping those stations.”
Nick did that. Look at his study. Further we looked at all the stations which were kept. That is, Drop all the stations that were dropped in 1990. take ONLY the stations that have continuous records from 1990 to the end. Answer. NO DIFFERENCE.
“There is just too much coincidence that many stations were dropped,
and immediately after that, we had catastrophic unprecedented global warming.”
The warming actually starts around 1975, change point analysis. Crap I did that back in 2007 on CA.
You misunderstood my comment as I was referring to your case about airport testing where you seem to think you already know the answer before even testing a hypothesis. Will you admit it if you are wrong? But my main complaint is that you are equating the temperature trend estimates with “the pace of global warming”. I am sorry but not matter how you slice and dice the surface trends it will not provide sufficient rationale to make conclusions about CO2 driven AGW. You equated the two in the opening paragraph using the term “global warming” instead of surface temperature anomaly. The temperature anomalies, even if not contaminated by UHI or biased in any way are influenced regionally by a variety of first-order forcings (i.e land-use, etc.) and thus are not equivalent to the effect of CO2. So my bitch is the claim that surface temperature anomalies equal global warming.
All of that aside, I have to enquire: Why drop stations at all?
You see? As I see things, with fewer stations there arrives that neat ability to extrapolate temperatures to a wider area, even when those extrapolations are grossly inaccurate.
What’s worse? Those dropped stations are seemingly completely ignored where —if one were to evaluate matters on a quality level— those dropped stations could well be used to verify the extrapolations.
You say you don’t want to discuss UHI, but isn’t that really the big elephant in the room which you and others are seemingly going out of your way to ignore?
In your attempt to narrowly focus on only one aspect, you instead create even more doubt in people’s minds regarding your motivations for doing such.
That the min temperatures are increasing (while the max temperatures are not increasing) really undermines the alarmists’ claims that global warming is bad for us. I don’t think even wild animals are going to miss the lower night-time low temperatures, and it’s almost certainly good news for humanity. We can expect longer growing seasons, more places to live comfortably, even less fuel burned to stay warm overnight in cold climates. Of course that last suggested benefit is doubtful if it’s all a UHI effect — stop burning fuel overnight and the lower overnight min temperatures will tend to return.
You do realize until you un-moderate my last post, and post it, it looks like you’re talking to yourself. 😉
Reply: Mosh doesn’t moderate, but he has editing privileges which allows him to see unapproved comments even if he doesn’t realize that. ~ ctm
Steven Mosher says: …5.UHI: may not be possible. UHI: Depends ENTIRELY on the definition of Rural, that is metadata…”
You appear to be dismissing the UHI issue with a wave of your hand, here. But there must be some approximate way to quantify “non-rural” or to at least identify the location parameters that bias urban-measured temperatures.
But I’m not buying any of this. The entire notion of a global temperature as discussed here is nonsense. Any system that ignores atmospheric enthalpy and fails to account for the 1000 times larger oceanic heat sink is an exercise in futility.