Some people claim, that there's a human to blame …

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

There seem to be a host of people out there who want to discuss whether humanoids are responsible for the post ~1850 rise in the amount of CO2. People seem madly passionate about this question. So I figure I’ll deal with it by employing the method I used in the 1960s to fire off dynamite shots when I was in the road-building game … light the fuse, and run like hell …

First, the data, as far as it is known. What we have to play with are several lines of evidence, some of which are solid, and some not so solid. These break into three groups: data about the atmospheric levels, data about the emissions, and data about the isotopes.

The most solid of the atmospheric data, as we have been discussing, is the Mauna Loa CO2 data. This in turn is well supported by the ice core data. Here’s what they look like for the last thousand years:

Figure 1. Mauna Loa CO2 data (orange circles), and CO2 data from 8 separate ice cores. Fuji ice core data is analyzed by two methods (wet and dry). Siple ice core data is analyzed by two different groups (Friedli et al., and Neftel et al.). You can see why Michael Mann is madly desirous of establishing the temperature hockeystick … otherwise, he has to explain the Medieval Warm Period without recourse to CO2. Photo shows the outside of the WAIS ice core drilling shed.

So here’s the battle plan:

I’m going to lay out and discuss the data and the major issues as I understand them, and tell you what I think. Then y’all can pick it all apart. Let me preface this by saying that I do think that the recent increase in CO2 levels is due to human activities.

Issue 1. The shape of the historical record.

I will start with Figure 1. As you can see, there is excellent agreement between the eight different ice cores, including the different methods and different analysts for two of the cores. There is also excellent agreement between the ice cores and the Mauna Loa data. Perhaps the agreement is coincidence. Perhaps it is conspiracy. Perhaps it is simple error. Me, I think it represents a good estimate of the historical background CO2 record.

So if you are going to believe that this is not a result of human activities, it would help to answer the question of what else might have that effect. It is not necessary to provide an alternative hypothesis if you disbelieve that humans are the cause … but it would help your case. Me, I can’t think of any obvious other explanation for that precipitous recent rise.

Issue 2. Emissions versus Atmospheric Levels and Sequestration

There are a couple of datasets that give us amounts of CO2 emissions from human activities. The first is the CDIAC emissions dataset. This gives the annual emissions (as tonnes of carbon, not CO2) separately for fossil fuel gas, liquids, and solids. It also gives the amounts for cement production and gas flaring.

The second dataset is much less accurate. It is an estimate of the emissions from changes in land use and land cover, or “LU/LC” as it is known … what is a science if it doesn’t have acronyms? The most comprehensive dataset I’ve found for this is the Houghton dataset. Here are the emissions as shown by those two datasets:

Figure 2. Anthropogenic (human-caused) emissions from fossil fuel burning and cement manufacture (blue line), land use/land cover (LU/LC) changes (white line), and the total of the two (red line).

While this is informative, and looks somewhat like the change in atmospheric CO2, we need something to compare the two directly. The magic number to do this is the number of gigatonnes (billions of tonnes, 1 * 10^9) of carbon that it takes to change the atmospheric CO2 concentration by 1 ppmv. This turns out to be 2.13 gigatonnes  of carbon (C) per 1 ppmv.

Using that relationship, we can compare emissions and atmospheric CO2 directly. Figure 3 looks at the cumulative emissions since 1850, along with the atmospheric changes (converted from ppmv to gigatonnes C). When we do so, we see an interesting relationship. Not all of the emitted CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Some is sequestered (absorbed) by the natural systems of the earth.

Figure 3. Total emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), amount remaining in the atmosphere, and amount sequestered.

Here we see that not all of the carbon that is emitted (in the form of CO2) remains in the atmosphere. Some is absorbed by some combination of the ocean, the biosphere, and the land. How are we to understand this?

To do so, we need to consider a couple of often conflated measurements. One is the residence time of CO2. This is the amount of time that the average CO2 molecule stays in the atmosphere. It can be calculated in a couple of ways, and is likely about 6–8 years.

The other measure, often confused with the first, is the half-life, or alternately the e-folding time of CO2. Suppose we put a pulse of CO2 into an atmospheric system which is at some kind of equilibrium. The pulse will slowly decay, and after a certain time, the system will return to equilibrium. This is called “exponential decay”, since a certain percentage of the excess is removed each year. The strength of the exponential decay is usually measured as the amount of time it takes for the pulse to decay to half its original value (half-life) or to 1/e (0.37) of its original value (e-folding time). The length of this decay (half-life or e-folding time) is much more difficult to calculate than the residence time. The IPCC says it is somewhere between 90 and 200 years. I say it is much less, as does Jacobson.

Now, how can we determine if it is actually the case that we are looking at exponential decay of the added CO2? One way is to compare it to what a calculated exponential decay would look like. Here’s the result, using an e-folding time of 31 years:

Figure 4. Total cumulative emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), cumulative amount remaining in the atmosphere, and cumulative amount sequestered. Calculated sequestered amount (yellow line) and calculated airborne amount (black) are shown as well.

As you can see, the assumption of exponential decay fits the observed data quite well, supporting the idea that the excess atmospheric carbon is indeed from human activities.

Issue 3. 12C and 13C carbon isotopes

Carbon has a couple of natural isotopes, 12C and 13C. 12C is lighter than 13C. Plants preferentially use the lighter isotope (12C). As a result, plant derived materials (including fossil fuels) have a lower amount of 13C with respect to 12C (a lower 13C/12C ratio).

It is claimed (I have not looked very deeply into this) that since about 1850 the amount of 12C in the atmosphere has been increasing. There are several lines of evidence for this: 13C/12C ratios in tree rings, 13C/12C ratios in the ocean, and 13C/12C ratios in sponges. Together, they suggest that the cause of the post 1850 CO2 rise is fossil fuel burning.

However, there are problems with this. For example, here is a Nature article called “Problems in interpreting tree-ring δ 13C records”. The abstract says (emphasis mine):

THE stable carbon isotopic (13C/12C) record of twentieth-century tree rings has been examined1-3 for evidence of the effects of the input of isotopically lighter fossil fuel CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰ relative to the primary PDB standard4), since the onset of major fossil fuel combustion during the mid-nineteenth century, on the 13C/12C ratio of atmospheric CO2(δ 13C~-7‰), which is assimilated by trees by photosynthesis. The decline in δ13C up to 1930 observed in several series of tree-ring measurements has exceeded that anticipated from the input of fossil fuel CO2 to the atmosphere, leading to suggestions of an additional input ‰) during the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. Stuiver has suggested that a lowering of atmospheric δ 13C of 0.7‰, from 1860 to 1930 over and above that due to fossil fuel CO2 can be attributed to a net biospheric CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰) release comparable, in fact, to the total fossil fuel CO2 flux from 1850 to 1970. If information about the role of the biosphere as a source of or a sink for CO2 in the recent past can be derived from tree-ring 13C/12C data it could prove useful in evaluating the response of the whole dynamic carbon cycle to increasing input of fossil fuel CO2 and thus in predicting potential climatic change through the greenhouse effect of resultant atmospheric CO2 concentrations. I report here the trend (Fig. 1a) in whole wood δ 13C from 1883 to 1968 for tree rings of an American elm, grown in a non-forest environment at sea level in Falmouth, Cape Cod, Massachusetts (41°34’N, 70°38’W) on the northeastern coast of the US. Examination of the δ 13C trends in the light of various potential influences demonstrates the difficulty of attributing fluctuations in 13C/12C ratios to a unique cause and suggests that comparison of pre-1850 ratios with temperature records could aid resolution of perturbatory parameters in the twentieth century.

This isotopic line of argument seems like the weakest one to me. The total flux of carbon through the atmosphere is about 211 gigtonnes plus the human contribution. This means that the human contribution to the atmospheric flux ranged from ~2.7% in 1978 to 4% in 2008. During that time, the average of the 11 NOAA measuring stations value for the 13C/12C ratio decreased by -0.7 per mil.

Now, the atmosphere has ~ -7 per mil 13C/12C. Given that, for the amount of CO2 added to the atmosphere to cause a 0.7 mil drop, the added CO2 would need to have had a 13C/12C of around -60 per mil.

But fossil fuels in the current mix have a 13C/12C ration of ~ -28 per mil, only about half of that requried to make such a change. So it is clear that the fossil fuel burning is not the sole cause of the change in the atmospheric 13C/12C ratio. Note that this is the same finding as in the Nature article.

In addition, from an examination of the year-by-year changes it is obvious that there are other large scale effects on the global 13C/12C ratio. From 1984 to 1986, it increased by 0.03 per mil. From ’86 to ’89, it decreased by -0.2. And from ’89 to ’92, it didn’t change at all. Why?

However, at least the sign of the change in atmospheric 13C/12C ratio (decreasing) is in agreement with with theory that at least part of it is from anthropogenic CO2 production from fossil fuel burning.

CONCLUSION

As I said, I think that the preponderance of evidence shows that humans are the main cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2. It is unlikely that the change in CO2 is from the overall temperature increase. During the ice age to interglacial transitions, on average a change of 7°C led to a doubling of CO2. We have seen about a tenth of that change (0.7°C) since 1850, so we’d expect a CO2 change from temperature alone of only about 20 ppmv.

Given all of the issues discussed above, I say humans are responsible for the change in atmospheric CO2 … but obviously, for lots of people, YMMV. Also, please be aware that I don’t think that the change in CO2 will make any meaningful difference to the temperature, for reasons that I explain here.

So having taken a look at the data, we have finally arrived at …

RULES FOR THE DISCUSSION OF ATTRIBUTION OF THE CO2 RISE

1. Numbers trump assertions. If you don’t provide numbers, you won’t get much traction.

2. Ad hominems are meaningless. Saying that some scientist is funded by big oil, or is a member of Greenpeace, or is a geologist rather than an atmospheric physicist, is meaningless. What is important is whether what they say is true or not. Focus on the claims and their veracity, not on the sources of the claims. Sources mean nothing.

3. Appeals to authority are equally meaningless. Who cares what the 12-member Board of the National Academy of Sciences says? Science isn’t run by a vote … thank goodness.

4. Make your cites specific. “The IPCC says …” is useless. “Chapter 7 of the IPCC AR4 says …” is useless. Cite us chapter and verse, specify page and paragraph. I don’t want to have to dig through an entire paper or an IPCC chapter to guess at which one line you are talking about.

5. QUOTE WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH!!! I can’t stress this enough. Far too often, people attack something that another person hasn’t said. Quote their words, the exact words you think are mistaken, so we can all see if you have understood what they are saying.

6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!! Repeat after me. No personal attacks. No “only a fool would believe …”. No “Are you crazy?”. No speculation about a person’s motives. No “deniers”, no “warmists”, no “econazis”, none of the above. Play nice.

OK, countdown to mayhem in 3, 2, 1 … I’m outta here.

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phlogiston
June 8, 2010 7:13 am

A nice paper in pnas by Beerling and Berner 2005 from Sheffield (pdf available without paywall) shows how evolution of trees resulted in a sharp drop in atmospheric CO2:
http://www.pnas.org/content/102/5/1302.full
In particular increasing height and leaf size, plus weathering action of roots building soils, all transformed the global carbon budget and cycle.
Its a good illustration of the close interplay between the earth’s biota and its atmosphere and environment – showing there is substance to Lovelock’s GAIA hypothesis. Also, if the biosphere coped with CO2 levels of several thousand ppm and adapted in such a way as to change the atmospheric composition, it is not too far-fetched to imagine that the present biosphere will have no difficulty adapting to, and even benefiting from, a modest anthropogenic increase in the rate of CO2 emission to the atmosphere.
The authors ended with a throw-away line about present day feedbacks possible being positive and harmful, but this contradicted the main message of the paper – the biosphere’s optimising adaptability – and seems half-hearted, perhaps a perfunctory bone thrown to AGW mandarins in the publication process.

Editor
June 8, 2010 7:33 am

In my post 5.04 am
I linked to a graph and asked a question;
http://i43.tinypic.com/a4wiu8.png
So that I can properly understand Phils helpful reply to me at 6.38 am I confirm he said;
“The most recent evaluation of this in a Nature paper came out with a median value of ~8 ppm CO2/ºC (upper limit ~20).”
So do I correctly understand that IF there were a general warming of the oceans by around 1 Degree C that it would outgass the equivalent of 80ppm (presumably a similar cooling would have the opposite effect.)
This amount is not far off the 80ppm ‘outlier’ that Beck recorded in the 1940’s. The world certainly warmed from 1920 to 1940 so a considerable amount of outgasing should theoretically have happened. I don’t know if most of it disappeared back into the oceans when it cooled again or went into plant growth.
My thanks to Dr Bill for his kind comments. An ‘unlabelled’ graph sounds an excellent idea to show the lack of cause and effect.
Tonyb

David C
June 8, 2010 8:00 am

Willis
It is generally accepted that there is a correlation between CO2 levels and temperature, derived from ice-core evidence, over many thousands of years. Cause or effect, lag or lead, are of course disputed. If we think increased CO2 in past epochs was an effect of warming, we should be seeing some effect of recent warming in CO2 levels now. Could the analysis be extended to take such an effect into account?

Malaga View
June 8, 2010 8:01 am

Warming in Last 50 Years Predicted by Natural Climate Cycles
by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/06/07/minority-report-50-year-warming-due-to-natural-causes/
From this record I computed the yearly change rates in temperature. I then linearly regressed these 1-year temperature change rates against the yearly average values of the PDO, AMO, and SOI.

Compare the 1900 through 1960 period in Roy W. Spencer’s article:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/20th-Century-NH-Tsfc-model-based-on-PDO-AMO-SOI.gif
With Ernst-Georg Beck’s background CO2 for the same period:
http://www.biomind.de/realCO2/bilder/CO2back1826-1960eorevk.jpg
It begins to look like the background CO2 levels are driven by the oceans… when the oceans warm they emit more CO2… when they cool the absorb more CO2… now there is surprise…

Slioch
June 8, 2010 8:08 am

Fred H. Haynie says:
June 8, 2010 at 6:58 am
“it is not much better than speculation to attribute some fraction of the rise in background CO2 levels to anthropogenic emissions.”
Even though those anthropogenic emissions to the atmosphere since 1850 are more than twice the rise in those background (atmospheric) CO2 levels during the same period … ?

Steve Fitzpatrick
June 8, 2010 8:34 am

Nick Stokes says:
June 8, 2010 at 3:33 am
“The reason is that exponential decay just isn’t the right model for diffusion of CO2 into the sea. ”
I’m not so sure about this. There is little reason to think that diffusion a diffusion based model is reasonable. The problems I see with the Bern model are twofold:
1. The Bern model appears to ignore the importance of thermohaline circulation, which is (I think) mainly responsible for net CO2 absorption. Net CO2 absorption is driven mainly by the difference between absorption by sinking (very cold) high latitude water and the out-gassing from upwelling deep waters as they warm at low latitudes, and yields an expected response to rising CO2 emissions which almost perfectly matches the historical data. It also predicts a continuing net absorption rate (for hundreds of years) that depends almost exclusively on the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere; that is, it would predict an exactly exponential decay if all CO2 emissions were suddenly to stop.
2. To match historical atmospheric data, the Bern model assumes preposterously high mixing rates between surface waters in the tropics and sub-tropics and deeper underlying waters (essentially matching the preposterously high mixing rates that are used to justify very long ocean heat lags).
The Bern model predicted a falling capacity for CO2 uptake, which should long ago have been evident in the data. Recent publications, showing that the uptake capacity has in fact not fallen at all, suggest the model is not a good representation of reality. The almost constant Argo ocean heat content since ~2004 – 2005 simultaneously casts doubt on long ocean heat lag values and on the Bern model, since CO2 mixing and thermal mixing are essentially identical.
There must be (of course) some downward mixing due to turbulent eddies where the thermocline contacts the well mixed layer, but I suspect the Bern model grossly overestimates the importance of that mixing in order to maintain agreement with expected long ocean heat lags. Both appear to me to be quite wrong.

Malaga View
June 8, 2010 8:36 am

Thanks for this great WUWT site….
Thanks for this thought provoking post…
Thanks for the thought provoking comments….
Thanks to James Taylor for Fire and Rain

I’ve seen fire and I’ve seen rain
I’ve seen sunny days that I thought would never end
I’ve seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
But I always thought that I’d see you again

For FIRE read CHERRY PICKING
For RAIN read TRICKING
For YOU read SENSE
I’m outta here……

Spector
June 8, 2010 8:44 am

I am suspicious of the pre-1800 constant CO2 concentration indicated by this data as I would expect the CO2 concentration to mirror global average ocean temperature changes. These temperature changes should affect the static quantity of CO2 that can remain dissolved in the ocean. Perhaps this information might have been lost as a result some long-term gas diffusion process. I think we may need a second, unrelated proxy to confirm this result.

Steve Fitzpatrick
June 8, 2010 8:56 am

Willis,
This post seems to have made a little progress with a few (which is in fact amazing), but I’m not sure the result justifies the effort. Where do you find the time?

thethinkingman
June 8, 2010 9:05 am

I am sorry if this sounds a bit , well, simple but what is the resolution in years, decades, centuries etc. for the CO2 level revealed by ice cores?
I ask because I am a civil engineer and I design and build dams which means I rely on rainfall probabilities. One in a hundred, thousand etc. floods are my bread and butter but these are averaged out trends and the resolution we use is poor so we pad the numbers a lot.
Now back to the ice cores. Is it possible that the variations decade on decade are high but the methodology used in CO2 estimates may well smooth out peaks and troughs with hundred year averages for instance. I have tried to find some definitive answer by researching this on line but I can’t find anything useful.
Any links someone may have would be welcome so I can go off and read up before I even have the hubris to think I can contribute to Willis’ challenge.
Thanks.

Richard S Courtney
June 8, 2010 9:30 am

John Finn:
At June 8, 2010 at 6:02 am you ask me:
“1. Do you think that the agreement between ML, Barrow, South Pole and AIRS data is a coincidence or doy you believe they are all wrong for the same reason?
2. Do you think the same argument applies to all 8 ice core datasets?”
I would answer your questios if I knew the answers, but I don’t.
I wish I were omniscient but I regret that there is much, much more that I do not know than I do.
Richard

June 8, 2010 9:32 am

To TheThinkingMan
Try http://www.kidswincom.net/climate/pdf in the section on ice cores.

thethinkingman
June 8, 2010 10:40 am

To . .
Fred H. Haynie . ..
Thanks for the link but it 404’s out 🙁
I will keep on searching.

Steve Fitzpatrick
June 8, 2010 10:44 am

Richard S Courtney says:
June 8, 2010 at 9:30 am
““1. Do you think that the agreement between ML, Barrow, South Pole and AIRS data is a coincidence or doy you believe they are all wrong for the same reason?
2. Do you think the same argument applies to all 8 ice core datasets?”
I would answer your questios if I knew the answers, but I don’t.”
If you really do not know, then it might be a good time to apply Occam’s razor. The simplest and most probable explanation is that the data agree because they are measuring the same thing.

kadaka (KD Knoebel)
June 8, 2010 10:57 am

Fred H. Haynie said on June 8, 2010 at 9:32 am

To TheThinkingMan
Try http://www.kidswincom.net/climate/pdf in the section on ice cores.

404 Error!
I backed the URL up to http://kidswincom.net/climate/ which shows http://www.kidswincom.net/climate.pdf as a file, which downloads as 1.0 MB… and is a 59 slide presentation. Where Fred H. Haynie has as the first sentence on slide 59 titled “Finally, the Bottom Line!”:

Anthropogenic emissions of carbon dioxide have not caused a rise in background levels of carbon dioxide.

I will take this to mean you disagree with Willis.
From slides 52 to 56 I see doubts about the ice core data as I’ve seen expressed before here on WUWT from several commentators.
Note: I realize graphs with a black/dark blue background with white grid and light-colored lines do look “stylish” and may work well with an actual projection screen and darkened room presentation, but here on my monitor they are hiding detail. Slide 46 is rather bad, and to me looks like the squirting of mustard, ketchup, and BBQ sauce onto a BBQ grill, I can’t make out much of anything.

anna v
June 8, 2010 11:33 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
June 8, 2010 at 10:37 am
My point is
1) that 8% (in the japanese numbers in the column averaged )CO2 is not a few percent and probably in the radial dimension if taken before averaging the percentages would be higher.
2) Well mixed is being defended by hand waving, and not by measurements. Where measurements exist it is not only in phi and theta but also in r that there are at least 10% differences. BTW H2O is lighter than CO2, in atomic weight: one is 18 and the other is 44.
3) The Maona Loa measurements and the Keeling organized measurements are limited measurements typical of the location and the height at which they are measured.
4) That the ice core measurements are by construction depleted and long period averaged measurements so the statement that there is unprecedented CO2 increase that your fig 1 shows is not proven by the data in fig 1 , no more than the hockey stick graph proved the non existence of the medieval warming period.
because of 1,2,3,4 Beck’s data, and the stomata data must be taken more seriously, and great effort must be made for a three dimensional map, r theta phi of the concentrations of CO2 from now on.
I think that the climate community is in no way ready to present proof that the increase of CO2 is unprecedented, let alone anthropogenic.

thethinkingman
June 8, 2010 11:36 am

Got this off of American Thinker . . .
Posted by: tmead new
Jun 08, 06:23 AM
Definitive evidence already exists to prove/disprove global warming. The GPS Master Control System has been measuring average atmospheric drag on each of the GPS satellites for 35 years. This is needed to predict satellite positions to NINE decimal places. If the Atmosphere is warming, it expands. If the atmosphere expands, the amount of gas encountered by the satellites increases. Thus the average drag over an orbit increases. The USAF Space Command has this drag data recorded from 1975 onward. If the trend is up, warming is occurring, if the trend is level or down, it is NOT. The measurements are accurate to at least 7 decimal places (far more than any temperature measurements). I was one of the original developers of the Kalman Filter Estimator software in GPS and have a Ph.D in Engineering. Every citizen with a GPS knows that it is the most accurate and verified system in existence. Someone like Roy Spencer should ask Space Command for the data. I am retired and no longer have the contacts or tools to do the work, or I would.
Link . . http://comments.americanthinker.com/read/42323/611689.html

thethinkingman
June 8, 2010 11:51 am

Thanks Kadaka I have got it now.

AnonyMoose
June 8, 2010 12:03 pm

A simpler explanation for the flat ice core graph is that the number reflects a common level for CO2 in ice, that it’s just a characteristic of the ice rather than the atmosphere. The non-flat data counters that idea. But there are a lot of questionable things about ice cores and their processing. I do admire the lab skill in teasing out the data, but the interpretations of the data are peculiar in several ways.

thethinkingman
June 8, 2010 12:52 pm

Thanks Fred, that is quite a read.
Now for a second time to see how much more I can get out of it. The concept of cycles upon cycles over a 10 000 year trend is familiar to me.
I intend sending this on to a number of my friends, with attribution of course.

John Finn
June 8, 2010 1:37 pm

anna v says:
June 8, 2010 at 11:33 am
because of 1,2,3,4 Beck’s data, and the stomata data must be taken more seriously, and great effort must be made for a three dimensional map, r theta phi of the concentrations of CO2 from now on.

Which “Beck’s data” would this be? There’s a spreadsheet with Beck measurements that shows a reading of 308 ppm in 1843, 400 ppm in 1844 and 359 ppm in 1847. Well – that’s me convinced. That dodgy old siple record only shows a change of ~0.6 ppm over the same period which can’t be right. Of course Mauna Loa , Barrow, Sth pole and AIRS satellite readings all suggest annual changes of similar magnitude to the ice core – so we can ditch them as well. The Beck data must be correct because as we all earth’s biosphere regularly pumps an extra ~200 GtC (more than the normal annual cycle) into the atmosphere every so often. And a couple of years later – not a trace of it. Gone – as though it had never been there.
We apparently have a situation whereby
1. All 8 ice core records are wrong – by exactly the same amount.
2. All CO2 measurements from Mauna Loa and dozens of other sites around the world are also wrong – again by remarkably similar amounts.
3. The AIRS satellite data from the mid-troposphere is also wrong – simply because it agrees with ML and other surface based observations.
Sheesh!

Jay Davis
June 8, 2010 2:02 pm

The number of people populating the planet has risen dramatically in the past 160 years, almost corresponding to your CO2 graphs. Since each person exhales approximately 2 metric tons of CO2 annually, how much do these human emissions of CO2 contribute to the overall increase in CO2 concentration? The Chinese alone must exhale at least 2 billion metric tons annually!

Bart
June 8, 2010 2:03 pm

thethinkingman says:
June 8, 2010 at 11:36 am
I’m a bit doubtful – atmospheric density is not generally considered significant above maybe 800 km altitude, and the GPS satellites are at “1/2 GEO” (about 20,000 km altitude for a 12 hr period). It is difficult for me to imagine that atmospheric drag is anything but infinitesimal up there – we tend to discount it entirely above 800 km so I do not recall how quickly it falls off, and am feeling too lazy right now to look it up.
However, so are the effects of General Relativity, and I do know that these accumulate fast enough that the onboard clocks have to be compensated for it. But, that is really mostly an effect on local time, and there are no other influences, whereas you would have to tease out the effects of any tiny atmospheric drag from much larger solar pressure and Earth and Moon gravity , and possibly even Coulomb force effects. I will not render a final verdict without knowing more of the author’s thinking – assuming his stated qualifications are valid, he may have something valid and very specific in mind. But, well… maybe he jumped to a conclusion without thinking it through.
LEO satellites are, however, markedly influenced by atmospheric drag, and the solar cycle has a huge effect. Some recent missions would not have been feasible if the sun had been more active.

John Finn
June 8, 2010 2:12 pm

Richard S Courtney says:
June 8, 2010 at 9:30 am
John Finn:
At June 8, 2010 at 6:02 am you ask me:
“1. Do you think that the agreement between ML, Barrow, South Pole and AIRS data is a coincidence or doy you believe they are all wrong for the same reason?
2. Do you think the same argument applies to all 8 ice core datasets?”
I would answer your questios if I knew the answers, but I don’t.
I wish I were omniscient but I regret that there is much, much more that I do not know than I do.

Richard
Richard
I bet every so often – quite successfully as it happens. Almost always on football- I know nothing about horse racing. But I effectively use statistical probability and select “value for money” bets. I know you don’t know for certain th answer to my questions – just as I don’t know if Man Utd will definitely beat Hull City. However, I don’t think it’s likely that Hull will beat United and I don’t think it’s likely that the agreement between the datasets is due to coincidence.

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