Some people claim, that there's a human to blame …

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

There seem to be a host of people out there who want to discuss whether humanoids are responsible for the post ~1850 rise in the amount of CO2. People seem madly passionate about this question. So I figure I’ll deal with it by employing the method I used in the 1960s to fire off dynamite shots when I was in the road-building game … light the fuse, and run like hell …

First, the data, as far as it is known. What we have to play with are several lines of evidence, some of which are solid, and some not so solid. These break into three groups: data about the atmospheric levels, data about the emissions, and data about the isotopes.

The most solid of the atmospheric data, as we have been discussing, is the Mauna Loa CO2 data. This in turn is well supported by the ice core data. Here’s what they look like for the last thousand years:

Figure 1. Mauna Loa CO2 data (orange circles), and CO2 data from 8 separate ice cores. Fuji ice core data is analyzed by two methods (wet and dry). Siple ice core data is analyzed by two different groups (Friedli et al., and Neftel et al.). You can see why Michael Mann is madly desirous of establishing the temperature hockeystick … otherwise, he has to explain the Medieval Warm Period without recourse to CO2. Photo shows the outside of the WAIS ice core drilling shed.

So here’s the battle plan:

I’m going to lay out and discuss the data and the major issues as I understand them, and tell you what I think. Then y’all can pick it all apart. Let me preface this by saying that I do think that the recent increase in CO2 levels is due to human activities.

Issue 1. The shape of the historical record.

I will start with Figure 1. As you can see, there is excellent agreement between the eight different ice cores, including the different methods and different analysts for two of the cores. There is also excellent agreement between the ice cores and the Mauna Loa data. Perhaps the agreement is coincidence. Perhaps it is conspiracy. Perhaps it is simple error. Me, I think it represents a good estimate of the historical background CO2 record.

So if you are going to believe that this is not a result of human activities, it would help to answer the question of what else might have that effect. It is not necessary to provide an alternative hypothesis if you disbelieve that humans are the cause … but it would help your case. Me, I can’t think of any obvious other explanation for that precipitous recent rise.

Issue 2. Emissions versus Atmospheric Levels and Sequestration

There are a couple of datasets that give us amounts of CO2 emissions from human activities. The first is the CDIAC emissions dataset. This gives the annual emissions (as tonnes of carbon, not CO2) separately for fossil fuel gas, liquids, and solids. It also gives the amounts for cement production and gas flaring.

The second dataset is much less accurate. It is an estimate of the emissions from changes in land use and land cover, or “LU/LC” as it is known … what is a science if it doesn’t have acronyms? The most comprehensive dataset I’ve found for this is the Houghton dataset. Here are the emissions as shown by those two datasets:

Figure 2. Anthropogenic (human-caused) emissions from fossil fuel burning and cement manufacture (blue line), land use/land cover (LU/LC) changes (white line), and the total of the two (red line).

While this is informative, and looks somewhat like the change in atmospheric CO2, we need something to compare the two directly. The magic number to do this is the number of gigatonnes (billions of tonnes, 1 * 10^9) of carbon that it takes to change the atmospheric CO2 concentration by 1 ppmv. This turns out to be 2.13 gigatonnes  of carbon (C) per 1 ppmv.

Using that relationship, we can compare emissions and atmospheric CO2 directly. Figure 3 looks at the cumulative emissions since 1850, along with the atmospheric changes (converted from ppmv to gigatonnes C). When we do so, we see an interesting relationship. Not all of the emitted CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Some is sequestered (absorbed) by the natural systems of the earth.

Figure 3. Total emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), amount remaining in the atmosphere, and amount sequestered.

Here we see that not all of the carbon that is emitted (in the form of CO2) remains in the atmosphere. Some is absorbed by some combination of the ocean, the biosphere, and the land. How are we to understand this?

To do so, we need to consider a couple of often conflated measurements. One is the residence time of CO2. This is the amount of time that the average CO2 molecule stays in the atmosphere. It can be calculated in a couple of ways, and is likely about 6–8 years.

The other measure, often confused with the first, is the half-life, or alternately the e-folding time of CO2. Suppose we put a pulse of CO2 into an atmospheric system which is at some kind of equilibrium. The pulse will slowly decay, and after a certain time, the system will return to equilibrium. This is called “exponential decay”, since a certain percentage of the excess is removed each year. The strength of the exponential decay is usually measured as the amount of time it takes for the pulse to decay to half its original value (half-life) or to 1/e (0.37) of its original value (e-folding time). The length of this decay (half-life or e-folding time) is much more difficult to calculate than the residence time. The IPCC says it is somewhere between 90 and 200 years. I say it is much less, as does Jacobson.

Now, how can we determine if it is actually the case that we are looking at exponential decay of the added CO2? One way is to compare it to what a calculated exponential decay would look like. Here’s the result, using an e-folding time of 31 years:

Figure 4. Total cumulative emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), cumulative amount remaining in the atmosphere, and cumulative amount sequestered. Calculated sequestered amount (yellow line) and calculated airborne amount (black) are shown as well.

As you can see, the assumption of exponential decay fits the observed data quite well, supporting the idea that the excess atmospheric carbon is indeed from human activities.

Issue 3. 12C and 13C carbon isotopes

Carbon has a couple of natural isotopes, 12C and 13C. 12C is lighter than 13C. Plants preferentially use the lighter isotope (12C). As a result, plant derived materials (including fossil fuels) have a lower amount of 13C with respect to 12C (a lower 13C/12C ratio).

It is claimed (I have not looked very deeply into this) that since about 1850 the amount of 12C in the atmosphere has been increasing. There are several lines of evidence for this: 13C/12C ratios in tree rings, 13C/12C ratios in the ocean, and 13C/12C ratios in sponges. Together, they suggest that the cause of the post 1850 CO2 rise is fossil fuel burning.

However, there are problems with this. For example, here is a Nature article called “Problems in interpreting tree-ring δ 13C records”. The abstract says (emphasis mine):

THE stable carbon isotopic (13C/12C) record of twentieth-century tree rings has been examined1-3 for evidence of the effects of the input of isotopically lighter fossil fuel CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰ relative to the primary PDB standard4), since the onset of major fossil fuel combustion during the mid-nineteenth century, on the 13C/12C ratio of atmospheric CO2(δ 13C~-7‰), which is assimilated by trees by photosynthesis. The decline in δ13C up to 1930 observed in several series of tree-ring measurements has exceeded that anticipated from the input of fossil fuel CO2 to the atmosphere, leading to suggestions of an additional input ‰) during the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. Stuiver has suggested that a lowering of atmospheric δ 13C of 0.7‰, from 1860 to 1930 over and above that due to fossil fuel CO2 can be attributed to a net biospheric CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰) release comparable, in fact, to the total fossil fuel CO2 flux from 1850 to 1970. If information about the role of the biosphere as a source of or a sink for CO2 in the recent past can be derived from tree-ring 13C/12C data it could prove useful in evaluating the response of the whole dynamic carbon cycle to increasing input of fossil fuel CO2 and thus in predicting potential climatic change through the greenhouse effect of resultant atmospheric CO2 concentrations. I report here the trend (Fig. 1a) in whole wood δ 13C from 1883 to 1968 for tree rings of an American elm, grown in a non-forest environment at sea level in Falmouth, Cape Cod, Massachusetts (41°34’N, 70°38’W) on the northeastern coast of the US. Examination of the δ 13C trends in the light of various potential influences demonstrates the difficulty of attributing fluctuations in 13C/12C ratios to a unique cause and suggests that comparison of pre-1850 ratios with temperature records could aid resolution of perturbatory parameters in the twentieth century.

This isotopic line of argument seems like the weakest one to me. The total flux of carbon through the atmosphere is about 211 gigtonnes plus the human contribution. This means that the human contribution to the atmospheric flux ranged from ~2.7% in 1978 to 4% in 2008. During that time, the average of the 11 NOAA measuring stations value for the 13C/12C ratio decreased by -0.7 per mil.

Now, the atmosphere has ~ -7 per mil 13C/12C. Given that, for the amount of CO2 added to the atmosphere to cause a 0.7 mil drop, the added CO2 would need to have had a 13C/12C of around -60 per mil.

But fossil fuels in the current mix have a 13C/12C ration of ~ -28 per mil, only about half of that requried to make such a change. So it is clear that the fossil fuel burning is not the sole cause of the change in the atmospheric 13C/12C ratio. Note that this is the same finding as in the Nature article.

In addition, from an examination of the year-by-year changes it is obvious that there are other large scale effects on the global 13C/12C ratio. From 1984 to 1986, it increased by 0.03 per mil. From ’86 to ’89, it decreased by -0.2. And from ’89 to ’92, it didn’t change at all. Why?

However, at least the sign of the change in atmospheric 13C/12C ratio (decreasing) is in agreement with with theory that at least part of it is from anthropogenic CO2 production from fossil fuel burning.

CONCLUSION

As I said, I think that the preponderance of evidence shows that humans are the main cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2. It is unlikely that the change in CO2 is from the overall temperature increase. During the ice age to interglacial transitions, on average a change of 7°C led to a doubling of CO2. We have seen about a tenth of that change (0.7°C) since 1850, so we’d expect a CO2 change from temperature alone of only about 20 ppmv.

Given all of the issues discussed above, I say humans are responsible for the change in atmospheric CO2 … but obviously, for lots of people, YMMV. Also, please be aware that I don’t think that the change in CO2 will make any meaningful difference to the temperature, for reasons that I explain here.

So having taken a look at the data, we have finally arrived at …

RULES FOR THE DISCUSSION OF ATTRIBUTION OF THE CO2 RISE

1. Numbers trump assertions. If you don’t provide numbers, you won’t get much traction.

2. Ad hominems are meaningless. Saying that some scientist is funded by big oil, or is a member of Greenpeace, or is a geologist rather than an atmospheric physicist, is meaningless. What is important is whether what they say is true or not. Focus on the claims and their veracity, not on the sources of the claims. Sources mean nothing.

3. Appeals to authority are equally meaningless. Who cares what the 12-member Board of the National Academy of Sciences says? Science isn’t run by a vote … thank goodness.

4. Make your cites specific. “The IPCC says …” is useless. “Chapter 7 of the IPCC AR4 says …” is useless. Cite us chapter and verse, specify page and paragraph. I don’t want to have to dig through an entire paper or an IPCC chapter to guess at which one line you are talking about.

5. QUOTE WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH!!! I can’t stress this enough. Far too often, people attack something that another person hasn’t said. Quote their words, the exact words you think are mistaken, so we can all see if you have understood what they are saying.

6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!! Repeat after me. No personal attacks. No “only a fool would believe …”. No “Are you crazy?”. No speculation about a person’s motives. No “deniers”, no “warmists”, no “econazis”, none of the above. Play nice.

OK, countdown to mayhem in 3, 2, 1 … I’m outta here.

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Malaga View
June 9, 2010 2:35 am

anna v says:
June 8, 2010 at 9:04 pm
The point is that the problem is three dimensional and all the Keeling measurements you think I am saying are wrong are two dimensional extrapolated to three dimensions by the assumption of “well mixed” which is wrong in a gravitational field when the molecules have different atomic weights. The gases are mixed, because of turbulence but how much mixed is something that has to be measured experimentally not assumed by hand waving “mixed”. They could be absolutely correct for that altitude ( for all the objections raised ) and still not reflective of world data .

Have you looked at pages three and four in
http://www.biokurs.de/treibhaus/CO2_versus_windspeed-review-1-FM.pdf
Page 3:

Meanwhile vertical profiles of the atmospheric CO2 concentration are available at many environments; they usually show different mixing ratios, with location having a much greater influence than altitude.
The North Hemisphere (NH) mean near ground mixing ratio shown in fig.2B differs by only 1.13 ppm from the background level above 4 km altitude. Extrapolation to ground level results in a 2.56 ppm difference. Large seasonal variations of the order of 30 ppm are typical at continental environments e.g. Surgut (SUR, Wetland, Siberia); at marine locations (e.g. Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station, Bass Strait, Cape Grim, Australia) the variations around the local background level are small.

Page 4:

Fig 2: Vertical CO2 profiles from 12 global stations derived from flask samples collected from aircraft during midday with records extending over periods from 4 to 27 years (Stephens, 2007).

But the problems with CO2 measurements are multiple:
Location / Environment issues
Altitude
Daily cycles
Seasonal cycles
Wind Speed
Wind Speed seems to be the biggest fly in the ointment at it seriously effects the level of CO2 mixing…
It would be very interesting to see the virgin MLO raw data… to say the least!!!

John Finn
June 9, 2010 3:00 am

Steve Fitzpatrick says:
June 8, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Richard S Courtney says:
June 8, 2010 at 2:20 pm
“The simplest and most probable explanation is that the data agree because they have been adjusted such that they agree.”
If you really believe that, then there is not much more to discuss… good luck, I wish you well.

Richard’s statement makes this whole debate pointless. Steve’s response sums it up. Eventually no matter what evidence is presented, however compelling, the last resort will always be that the data has been adjusted.
Thanks for your efforts, Willis, but it seems that multiple data sources have been adjusted to produce some sort of worldwide conspiracy. Apparently only Beck’s chaotic measurements can be trusted. I’m seriously beginning to question about where I’m positioned in the AGW debate.

June 9, 2010 3:01 am

Steve Fitzpatrick says:
June 8, 2010 at 8:34 am
“There is little reason to think that diffusion a diffusion based model is reasonable.”

It’s where you have to start. It is diffusive. What realistic model do you think yields exponential decay?
“The Bern model appears to ignore the importance of thermohaline circulation, which is (I think) mainly responsible for net CO2 absorption.”
I understood Bern is empirical, so I don’t think it breaks down by factors. But I think net CO2 absorption involves the temperature difference, but the actual circulation has effect on a much longer timescale.
“The almost constant Argo ocean heat content since ~2004 – 2005 simultaneously casts doubt on long ocean heat lag values and on the Bern model”
That’s an interesting one – if heat uptake by the ocean is slow, then so would be CO2. I’m still waiting for the Argo story to settle.
I’m not familiar with the implied downward mixing rates in the Bern model.

anna v
June 9, 2010 4:12 am

Slioch says:
June 9, 2010 at 1:37 am
anna v says:
June 8, 2010 at 9:04 pm
“gases are mixed, because of turbulence”
I think you confuse kinetics with thermodynamics. From thermodynamics (ie. the application of delG = delH -TdelS) it can be shown that even the EQUILIBRIUM distribution of the gases in the atmosphere, under the influence of gravity, would be such that there would be very little difference from the top to the bottom of the atmosphere,

I will check this, but if true, why is there an ozone level? Why does not the ozon mix well and differ very little from stratosphere to surface? It is the opposite problem, created up high, whereas CO2 is created at the surface.
It varies by a factor of 2 over the globe, in the funny units that compress the column.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Future_ozone_layer_concentrations.jpg
We need experimental evidence of this well mixed business, and all independent observations say there is no well mixing. Maybe what you call small percentage difference is of the order of 100ppm.

Editor
June 9, 2010 5:15 am

John Finn said
‘Thanks for your efforts, Willis, but it seems that multiple data sources have been adjusted to produce some sort of worldwide conspiracy. Apparently only Beck’s chaotic measurements can be trusted. I’m seriously beginning to question about where I’m positioned in the AGW debate.’
These are not ‘Becks chaotic measurements.’ They were taken in thousands of locations by hundreds of scientists- many of them highly respected- at a time when the scientific method was considered meaningful, and within a field of science that had been practised since 1830 and over its 120 year existence achieved a degree of knowledge and accuracy.
That does not mean to say that ALL the measurements are by any means correct but equally it does not mean that ALL of them are incorrect. An independent audit would put the matter to bed. I certainly don’t claim to know definitively either way.
Tonyb

Editor
June 9, 2010 5:20 am

Anna V
I would particularly value your comments on an earlier post I made, repeated here for your convenience. Do you think this theoretical 80ppm is possible?
“I linked to a graph and asked a question;
http://i43.tinypic.com/a4wiu8.png
So that I can properly understand Phils helpful reply to me at 6.38 am I confirm he said;
“The most recent evaluation of this in a Nature paper came out with a median value of ~8 ppm CO2/ºC (upper limit ~20).” (per tenth of a degree centigrade warming of the oceans)
So do I correctly understand that IF there were a general warming of the oceans by around 1 Degree C that it would outgass the equivalent of 80ppm (presumably a similar cooling would have the opposite effect.)
This amount is not far off the 80ppm ‘outlier’ that Beck recorded in the 1940′s. The world certainly warmed from 1920 to 1940 so a considerable amount of outgasing should theoretically have happened. I don’t know if most of it disappeared back into the oceans when it cooled again or went into plant growth.”
tonyb

June 9, 2010 5:30 am

Tonyb is right, the 90,000+ CO2 measurements that Beck recorded were taken with great care by true scientists who did it for knowledge, not grant money.
Maybe some readings were influenced by local CO2 sources. But it is hard to believe that thousands of measurements taken on very sparsely populated, isolated sea coasts, and in mid-ocean transits between continents, on the windward side of ships traveling across the Arctic, Beaufort, South Pacific, Antarctic and Atlantic oceans, were all in error.

June 9, 2010 6:03 am

To Slioch,
I think you are a little mixed up on your thermodynamics and kinetics. Gravity is a force which tends to separate heavy from light. It is included in the free energy term and the entropy term but not the enthalpy term. If there were no turbulence, gravity and Brownian movement would equilibrate to create a vertical concentration gradiant. The lighter oil goes to the top.

Malaga View
June 9, 2010 6:08 am

tonyb says:
June 9, 2010 at 5:20 am
So do I correctly understand that IF there were a general warming of the oceans by around 1 Degree C that it would outgass the equivalent of 80ppm (presumably a similar cooling would have the opposite effect.)

I think you are on the right track…
As Beck states:
The main globally effective controllers for CO2 flux in the lithosphere/atmosphere system are the oceans and the biomas.

http://www.biomind.de/realCO2/realCO2-1.htm

Spector
June 9, 2010 6:16 am

I believe that the data presented in figure 1 of this article, if valid, would tend to support the Dr. Mann’s hypothesis that overall global temperatures have remained constant from Y1000 to Y1800 and that the medieval warm period and little ice-age periods were probably local North Atlantic regional weather anomalies.
It is my understanding that the action of Henries Law causes CO2 to be out-gassed from the ocean during warm periods and absorbed when the ocean cools. Henry’s Law is, I believe, a linear, one-for-one, relationship whereas the CO2 Greenhouse Effect is logarithmic, one-for-doubling, relationship. I believe critics have suggested that thermal out-gassing and re-absorption is the primary explanation for the huge temperature-lagging CO2 fluctuations depicted in “An Inconvenient Truth.”
I find it hard to believe that all this data might have been ‘concocted’ just to support Dr. Mann’s hypothesis, but there may be uncompensated natural processes that degrade or smear out this information over long periods of time. Perhaps the data derived from gases trapped in 1000-year old ice is no more reliable as a temperature indicator than tree-ring data. In any case, I think it’s best to present this data rather than ‘hide’ it.

June 9, 2010 6:17 am

tonyb says:
June 9, 2010 at 5:20 am
Anna V
I would particularly value your comments on an earlier post I made, repeated here for your convenience. Do you think this theoretical 80ppm is possible?
“I linked to a graph and asked a question;
http://i43.tinypic.com/a4wiu8.png
So that I can properly understand Phils helpful reply to me at 6.38 am I confirm he said;
“The most recent evaluation of this in a Nature paper came out with a median value of ~8 ppm CO2/ºC (upper limit ~20).”

That is correct, note that it is /ºC not per tenth of a degree.

Editor
June 9, 2010 6:37 am

Thank you Smokey
I find it extraordinary that the tens of thousands of measurements taken by skilled and diligent scientists over a period of 120 years of improving technology could ALL be wrong. These were taken in a huge variety of places, many far away from contamination-a concept they understood well and enshrined in law in the 1889 Factories Act.
Tonyb

June 9, 2010 6:38 am

To Anna v,
I suspect both the Mauna Loa and Southpole Scripps CO2 data have been adjusted to sea level to compensate for the gravitational effect. Mauna Loa and Cape Kumukahi are almost identical. The actual measured differences may have been used to make the adjustments. In any case, I think the Scripps data is our best estimate of natural background levels into which plumes of both natural and anthropogenic emissions e-fold. Pick your fudge factor to fit this model.

June 9, 2010 6:39 am

anna v says:
June 9, 2010 at 4:12 am
Slioch says:
June 9, 2010 at 1:37 am
anna v says:
June 8, 2010 at 9:04 pm
I will check this, but if true, why is there an ozone level? Why does not the ozon mix well and differ very little from stratosphere to surface? It is the opposite problem, created up high, whereas CO2 is created at the surface.

Because the O3 is created locally in the stratosphere as a result of the photodissociation of O2 by UV. The relevant UV frequencies are completely absorbed in the stratosphere so that the O3 precursors are not produced at lower altitudes. The lifetime of the O3 molecule in the atmosphere depends on altitude, it is an extremely reactive molecule, in the troposphere it only has a lifetime of the order of hours to days, even in the stratosphere it lasts only about a week. so it is necessarily confined to the region where it is created. The timescale for atmospheric distribution around the world is a few years as the following graph clearly shows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radiocarbon_bomb_spike.svg

anna v
June 9, 2010 7:00 am

Hi Tony
I had noted your comment, and I thought Phil. would reply.
From the abstract in his refered Nature article:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7280/full/nature08769.html#B7
Here we quantify the median γ as 7.7 p.p.m.v. CO2 per °C warming, with a likely range of 1.7–21.4 p.p.m.v. CO2 per °C.
Maybe you were aware of the quoted also in that abstract:
Our results are incompatibly lower (P < 0.05) than recent pre-industrial empirical estimates of ~40 p.p.m.v. CO2 per °C (refs 6, 7)
So I would question your quote of Phil’s numbers:
“The most recent evaluation of this in a Nature paper came out with a median value of ~8 ppm CO2/ºC (upper limit ~20).” (per tenth of a degree centigrade warming of the oceans) Since you are careful with your quotes, maybe you could explain this “tenth of a degree” instead of “degree”.
I do not have access to Nature, and assume you do and the “per tenth of a degree centigrade ” is what you found in the main paper, but it does not seem probable from the abstract.
If it is not per degree, but if it is per tenth of a degree than your quote of 80ppm is fine and the conclusions you draw.
Look at this:
http://brneurosci.org/co2.html
When all these equations are put together, we can calculate that an increase of 0.6°C would increase atmospheric CO2 from 288 to 292.4 ppmv, an increase of about 4.4 ppm, far short of the 80.4 needed to produce today’s levels.

June 9, 2010 7:11 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
June 9, 2010 at 1:52 am
Finally, the implication that I have done what Mann did is childish, uninformed, nasty and untrue. I have made it very clear where each dataset came from, and have cited where you can go get them. I have painted the Mauna Loa data bright orange to keep people from thinking that they were the same as the other data. I have not averaged the data as Mann did. I am just showing exactly what the observations show. You don’t like it? Tough. You think it is wrong? Fine, but take your snide accusations elsewhere. I’m showing what is known about the history of CO2. It may be wrong, but your claim that I am somehow trying to deceive people as Mann did is baseless, desperate, and unpleasant. If you can show that there is something wrong with the eight different ice core records that I’ve shown, bring it on. That’s science. If not, go somewhere else to make your puerile claims.

I agree that the accusations that you are trying to deceive by the graphic you show is indeed “baseless, desperate and unpleasant”. However you did do exactly what Mann did, in his case he used blue and red to distinguish between proxy and direct measurement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hockey_stick_chart_ipcc_large.jpg
Mann’s ‘trick’ is not what some say it is!

anna v
June 9, 2010 7:22 am

Slioch says:
June 9, 2010 at 1:37 am
OK, I looked up in my thermodynamics book, (Sears, 1959, when I took the course) and though
G=H-TS
in infinitesimal processes
deltaG=deltaH -TdeltaS -SdeltaT
In the atmosphere the temperature is not constant in the column.
In any case, I do not know how the equilibrium distribution of masses in the height of the columns would be derived from these equations. Maybe you have a link of the derivation?

anna v
June 9, 2010 7:24 am

Phil. says:
June 9, 2010 at 6:39 am
And are you not saying it is not well mixed, in other words?

Steve Fitzpatrick
June 9, 2010 7:27 am

Nick Stokes says:
June 9, 2010 at 3:01 am
“I understood Bern is empirical, so I don’t think it breaks down by factors.”
I believe it incorporates an earlier “four-box” ocean mixing model (which describes both CO2 and heat fluxes) as well as some modeling of land based CO2 sinks. The ocean model seems OK in general form, but as usual, the devil is in the details. The big uncertainties are 1) the rate of physical down-mixing through the thermocline, which is said to be based mostly on “tracer studies”, and 2) assumed overall circulation rates. When you dig a little deeper, you find that there’s lots of apparently conflicting data, and the down-mixing rate turns out to be (apparently) based on yet another model…. all seems very uncertain to me. The total circulation rate and the efficiency of CO2 absorption by cold (sinking) surface waters are critically important at all time scales, not just at long scales.
“That’s an interesting one – if heat uptake by the ocean is slow, then so would be CO2.”
Yes, that would be true if the Bern model accurately describes the ocean uptake, but not true if CO2 uptake is primarily driven by thermohaline circulation rather than down-mixing in the thermocline. Some climate scientists are unhappy with the ARGO data because it shows that the heat uptake isn’t as fast as expected, and so calls into question the ocean circulation models and rates of ocean heat accumulation that are needed (long ocean lags) for high climate sensitivity to be correct. They are also not happy with published reports showing no decline in ocean CO2 uptake capacity, since this also casts some doubt on ocean circulation models.
There appears to be a bit of arm-waving going on now, with at least one model group saying that even though the true sensitivity has to be near 3C or 3.5C for a doubling, the total warming up to the time of that doubling is more like 1.5C, and that it will then take several hundred years at a constant doubled CO2 level to approach the “ultimate response” of 3C or more. In other words, they are saying that after an initial 1.5C warming over ~80-90 years, an additional 1.5 C warming will take place over 300+ years, at constant atmospheric CO2 level of 560PPM!. In light of the available fossil fuel reserves, it would appear that maintaining 560 PPM for 300+ years is very unlikely, so the “ultimate response” would almost certainly never be reached.
.
I think we can safely bet over the next few years on more arm-waving and a gradual decline in model projections of rapid temperature increase.

June 9, 2010 7:46 am

Fred H. Haynie says:
June 9, 2010 at 6:03 am
To Slioch,
I think you are a little mixed up on your thermodynamics and kinetics. Gravity is a force which tends to separate heavy from light. It is included in the free energy term and the entropy term but not the enthalpy term. If there were no turbulence, gravity and Brownian movement would equilibrate to create a vertical concentration gradiant. The lighter oil goes to the top.

Our atmosphere is a gas not a liquid and is mixed by turbulent diffusion, separation of gas molecules by molecular weight doesn’t occur until the mean free path becomes long compared with the mixing length. This doesn’t occur until an altitude of ~100km, below that the atmosphere is referred to as the ‘homosphere’, reactive gases such as O, O3 etc which are created locally and have insufficient lifetime to mix can form layers in the homosphere, i.e. the ozone layer.
Most of the sources and sinks for CO2 are at or near the surface so [CO2] there depends strongly on the proximity of such sources and sinks. Above the mixing layer the CO2 becomes well mixed.

June 9, 2010 7:48 am

anna v says:
June 9, 2010 at 7:00 am
Hi Tony
I had noted your comment, and I thought Phil. would reply.

I did this morning (I do sleep at night). Also bear in mind that my replies are delayed and so appear higher up in the thread.

Steve Fitzpatrick
June 9, 2010 7:52 am

Nick Stokes,
“It’s where you have to start. It is diffusive. What realistic model do you think yields exponential decay?”
I forgot: If CO2 absorption by the ocean is dominated by thermohaline circulation, then that “model” does in fact hind cast the historical trend very well, and does project an exponential decay if CO2 emissions were to stop immediately, as Willis suggested. The diffusive model predicts a very different response to a sudden stop in CO2 emissions, much more ocean heat accumulation than ARGO data suggests, and predicts a gradually declining ocean CO2 uptake capacity…. which does not appear to be happening. The Bern model appears to be in clear conflict with the data.

Editor
June 9, 2010 7:59 am

Anna
My question- which Phil answered- was posed on the basis of the potential ppm increase per tenth of a degree C rise in temperature, so I asumed that was what the reply referred to. Clearly if the amount quoted is per whole degree C (which seems very small) is it difficult to see how there could be sufficient outgassing in a short time to support the 80ppm rise that we see in Becks figures.
I wil reread all the material and try to cross reference it elsewhere. Thanks for your help
tonyb

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