WUWT Arctic Sea Ice News #3

Wikipedia : Traditional Santa Claus

Arctic ice extent continues downwards on the trend line started at the end of March, having lost a little over 1,000,000 km2 during April.  If that linear rate continues, the Arctic will be ice free around January 1, 2011.  That would be a complete disaster for Santa Claus and the billions of people who depend on him.

During the past month, Arctic sea ice has straddled between the NSIDC 1979-2000 average (wide black line) and the NSIDC 1979-2009 average (wide turquoise line.) The composite image below shows all four commonly used extent graphs – NSIDC/NORSEX/DMI/JAXA .  The thin turquoise line is NSIDC 2009.  Note that the melt season is about three weeks behind the 2007 extent (dashed) line.

During the last few days, ice has begun to disappear from the Barents Sea. The modified NSIDC map below shows loss of ice from one week ago, marked in red.  I wonder if any soot from Iceland is dirtying the ice?  Hansen says that soot may be responsible for 25% of all global warming.

The UIUC graph below provides a more detailed blow by blow of what is happening to ice area in the Barents Sea.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/recent365.anom.region.6.html

The modified NSIDC map below shows loss of ice since the first week in April, marked in red.

The modified NSIDC map below shows changes in ice since May 2, 2007.  Green areas have more ice, and red areas have less ice.

The modified NSIDC map below shows areas of above “normal” (green) and below “normal” (red) ice.  The western Arctic is above average, and the eastern Arctic is below average.  Perhaps all the hot air from Copenhagen in December thinned  the ice?

During the past few summers, the low anomalies have been on the western side of the Arctic.  Note in the SST map below, that ocean temperatures are abnormally cold on the western side, which is likely to slow melt this summer.

Current  Sea Surface Temperature Anomaly Plot

http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.html

The Arctic Oscillation is forecast to go negative again, which should inhibit melt in the Arctic and growth in my garden.

Ensemble Mean AO Outlook

http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/daily_ao_index/ao.sprd2.gif

We are still about eight weeks away from the beginning of the really interesting melt season. Stay tuned.  The Antarctic remains boring, staying average to slightly above.  No meltdowns or collapsing ice sheets to report this week.

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jeff brown
May 4, 2010 3:07 pm

Gail Combs says:
May 4, 2010 at 1:46 pm
The natural sequestering of CO2 in limestone, coal and oil was heading us for the real catastrophe. Luckily humans liberated life giving CO2 saving the planet and the environment.
Are you serious?

Editor
May 4, 2010 3:41 pm

jeff brown says: May 4, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Jeff, you are aware that plant life shuts down when CO2 in the atmosphere hits 200 ppm. I wonder if today’s plants are feeling like we would feel if we were trying to breathe 5% oxygen….

May 4, 2010 3:56 pm

Roger Knights says:
May 4, 2010 at 3:30 am
“Our theory is that the PDO was in a 30-year warm cycle, ”
Its just a theory, one that does not fit the oberverved cycle of 90 years for the AO, and which is also so blatantly obvious in World temeperatures. Look, The last full cycle was from 1900 to 1990. The positive phase being 1900 to 1945, ok, so the center of the positive phase was 1922.5. Take off 90yrs = 1830`s = warm. Take off another 90yrs = 1740`s = warm. You can`t repeat the 60yr cycle hisorically with any success, It is an illusion. 1922.5 + 90yrs is 2012.5, so we are in the middle of the positive phase now, and it will be just turning negative by 2035/6. If you study the AO sequence: http://jisao.washington.edu/ao/ you will see some massive exceptions to the cycle in certain years. I can give deterministic forecasts to the exact years that cooler years/seasons will be occurring through this period, but the general phase is clearly positive. Get over the 60yr cycle, it doesn`t work, this is not Chinese astrology!
its Gleissberg.

May 4, 2010 4:11 pm

kwik says:
May 4, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Anu,
you seem to think Jim Hansen knows his climate science.
I hope he wont start pushing the idea that CO2 will cause a new ice age.
I dont think anyone will buy it this time;

Those same tired old deceptions raise their ugly head from time to time.
They’re still not true!

May 4, 2010 4:14 pm

skye says:
“Smokey, why do you keep talking about alarmists on this site?”
Because I don’t want to talk about bed-wetters?
From the April 16, 2007 issue of Newsweak, an op-ed by Prof Richard Lindzen:

There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we’ve seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators — and many scientists — seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes… Looking back on the earth’s climate history, it’s apparent that there’s no such thing as an optimal temperature — a climate at which everything is just right.
A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now… There is no evidence… that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way…
Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth’s surface.
Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down — not up — the more carbon accumulates in the atmosphere…
Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.
Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem.
The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle — Al Gore’s supposed mentor — is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn’t warrant any action, unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

Skye doesn’t like the term ‘alarmist.’ But that is exactly what the purveyors of CAGW are doing. Because if the total effect of human emitted CO2 is so insignificant that it can not even be empirically measured, which is in fact the case, then nothing except baseless alarmism justifies the demands for $trillions to mitigate a non-problem.
And regarding Anu’s hand-waving over the relatively tiny assistance given to the GMI by the e-e-evil Exxon-Mobil, I note this in the Wiki [always questionable] link that Anu posted above:

In 2002, the GMI received $80,000 from Exxon-Mobil, up from $60,000 in the previous year. Since 1998, the institute received a total of $715,000 in funding from Exxon-Mobil.

So what? Since 2002 the George Marshall Institute was supported with $715,000 from Exxon-Mobil. Well then, let’s contrast that with this.
Government grants for alarmist climate studies are about 10,000 times greater than Exxon-Mobil’s contribution. And the government rarely funds universities and scientists whose research shows that CO2 isn’t a problem; the greater the scare, the greater the funding. And rich foundations and individuals with a CAGW agenda are also fanning the flames by funding scientists who sound the CO2=CAGW alarm.
When you throw out bread in the public square, you get pigeons. When the gov’t throws out $billions in AGW grants, it attracts climate alarmists.
Finally, jeff brown, the fact that you ask “Are you serious” regarding Gail Combs’ statement [you only quoted the last part, BTW], indicates that you still have a mental block that doesn’t allow you to see that, at atmospheric trace gas concentrations, CO2 is entirely beneficial, not harmful. You need to work on that.

Roger Knights
May 4, 2010 5:36 pm

nedhead says:
May 4, 2010 at 8:17 am

Roger Knights says:
May 4, 2010 at 3:30 am

nedhead says:
“Name the natural variability affects [sic] that explain this decline…”

Our theory is that the PDO was in a 30-year warm cycle, and other multi-decadal oceanic cycles were also warming. Now the warm is turning.

Ok…well then I guess this summer is an important one for you to watch then. Solar activity is also low so it should be cold too right, further helping to keep the ice around.
I have a bad feeling that won’t be the case because of how thin the ice is, but we’ll all know by the end of September….Happy watching!

If this year does uptick, as it seems to be doing, it’ll be a “Last Hurrah.”

Roger Knights
May 4, 2010 5:56 pm

@Ulrich Lyons:
The 60-year PDO cycle I cited is a simplification. It does not occur in regular 60-year cycles, and other oceanic multi-decadal cycles play a role as well. My impression from comments here is that the PDO has entered a cool phase (one in which La Nina events outnumber El Ninos).
Here’s the link (which I’m sure you’re familiar with) to some background on the subject: Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofu’s paper, “Two Natural Components of Recent Climate Change,” here (as a 50-Mb PDF):
http://people.iarc.uaf.edu/~sakasofu/little_ice_age.php

Anu
May 4, 2010 8:33 pm

kwik says:
May 4, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Anu,
you seem to think Jim Hansen knows his climate science.
I hope he wont start pushing the idea that CO2 will cause a new ice age.
I dont think anyone will buy it this time;
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/09/global_warmer_h.html

Yes, I heard of this story two years ago when it was first debunked.
Try to keep up – the links are old now. Here’s what I copied from IBD two years ago:
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=275267681833290

On July 9, 1971, the Post published a story headlined “U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming.” It told of a prediction by NASA and Columbia University scientist <b<S.I. Rasool. The culprit: man’s use of fossil fuels.
The Post reported that Rasool, writing in Science, argued that in “the next 50 years” fine dust that humans discharge into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuel will screen out so much of the sun’s rays that the Earth’s average temperature could fall by six degrees. Sustained emissions over five to 10 years, Rasool claimed, “could be sufficient to trigger an ice age.”
Aiding Rasool’s research, the Post reported, was a “computer program developed by Dr. James Hansen,” who was, according to his resume, a Columbia University research associate at the time.

Here’s the Washington Post article the intern at The Washington Times (the Rev. Sun Myun Moon’s vanity newspaper) dug up:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/144703752.html?dids=144703752:144703752&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS
Dr. Hansen was not a co-author, he did not agree with the results, and there is no indication he even *knew* what Dr. Rasool’s was going to use his code for – Dr. Hansen was still working on Venus at this time (he did not write his first paper on Earth’s climate until 1976). It is common for researchers to use software developed by others at the same University – this does not make the software developers ‘co-researchers’.
If Osama bin Laden used Microsoft Word to write letters to his supporters, does that make Bill Gates a co-terrorist ?
Here’s more info on the Dr. Rasool paper that The Washington Times dug up, and IBD parroted, because it included that mention of Dr. Hansen:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101072141AAUf90w
Here’s Dr. Hansen explaining the code that Dr. Rasool used:

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2007/20070924_Grandfather.pdf
Mr. McCaslin reported that Rasool and Hansen were colleagues at NASA and “Mr.
Rasool came to his chilling conclusions by resorting in part to a new computer program
developed by Mr. Hansen that studied clouds above Venus.”
What was that program? It was a ‘Mie scattering’ code I had written to calculate light
scattering by spherical particles. Indeed, it was useful for Venus studies, as it helped determine the size and refractive index of the particles in the clouds that veil the surface of Venus. I was glad to let Rasool and Schneider use that program to calculate scattering by aerosols. But Mie scattering functions, although more complex, are like sine and cosine mathematical functions, simply a useful tool for many problems. Allowing this scattering function to be used by other people does not in any way make me responsible for a climate theory.

I bet you feel foolish now.

Anu
May 4, 2010 8:59 pm

Smokey says:
May 4, 2010 at 4:14 pm

I’m glad to see you respect professors from my alma mater, MIT.
Why not listen to Professor Prinn, TEPCO Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry, and Director of the Center for Global Change Science, and the co-Director of the Joint Program on Science & Policy of Global Change? One of Prof. Lindzen’s overachieving faculty colleagues at Atmospheres, Oceans, and Climate:
http://eapsweb.mit.edu/people/topic.asp?Topic=PAOC

Study co-author Ronald Prinn, the co-director of the Joint Program and director of MIT’s Center for Global Change Science, says that, regarding global warming, it is important “to base our opinions and policies on the peer-reviewed science,” he says. And in the peer-reviewed literature, the MIT model, unlike any other, looks in great detail at the effects of economic activity coupled with the effects of atmospheric, oceanic and biological systems. “In that sense, our work is unique,” he says.
The new projections, published this month in the American Meteorological Society’s Journal of Climate, indicate a median probability of surface warming of 5.2 degrees Celsius by 2100, with a 90% probability range of 3.5 to 7.4 degrees. This can be compared to a median projected increase in the 2003 study of just 2.4 degrees. The difference is caused by several factors rather than any single big change. Among these are improved economic modeling and newer economic data showing less chance of low emissions than had been projected in the earlier scenarios. Other changes include accounting for the past masking of underlying warming by the cooling induced by 20th century volcanoes, and for emissions of soot, which can add to the warming effect. In addition, measurements of deep ocean temperature rises, which enable estimates of how fast heat and carbon dioxide are removed from the atmosphere and transferred to the ocean depths, imply lower transfer rates than previously estimated.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/roulette-0519.html

Do you think Lindzen is the only one at MIT that knows how to do science ?
Care to hear about the work of a dozen more colleagues of Dr. Lindzen ? Why do you think Lindzen is the only one ever quoted by people like you ?

May 4, 2010 9:18 pm

Anu says:
“Do you think Lindzen is the only one at MIT that knows how to do science?”
It seems that way, doesn’t it? Considering the “warming of 5.2 degrees Celsius by 2100” horse manure being shoveled by his ankle-biters.

May 4, 2010 9:33 pm

Anu
So the MIT study clams 7C warming in the next 90 years, after 0C warming during the last 15 years and 0.6C warming during the last 120 years. Hopefully you are a little embarrassed by your alma mater?

Richard Sharpe
May 4, 2010 9:34 pm

Smokey says:

Anu says:

“Do you think Lindzen is the only one at MIT that knows how to do science?”

It seems that way, doesn’t it? Considering the “warming of 5.2 degrees Celsius by 2100″ horse manure being shoveled by his ankle-biters.

Wow, that would be better than 2C cooling. More moisture in the atmosphere, plants growing better because of temp and CO2 levels, we could sure feed a lot more people. May 10-15 Billion. Nothing to worry about, really.

jeff brown
May 4, 2010 9:55 pm

Robert E. Phelan says:
May 4, 2010 at 3:41 pm
What does 200 ppm have to do with anything? Do you think we’re going to get to 200ppm anytime soon? Do you know what the ppms were 150 years ago when there were only 1 billion people on the planet compared to nearly 7 billion today?
Are you up to speed on the latest CO2 research regarding plants? Do you know that too much CO2 also kills plants?
But more importantly, where do you get the idea that CO2 levels are going to drop to 200 ppm where plants will be negatively affected?

rbateman
May 4, 2010 11:28 pm

stevengoddard says:
May 4, 2010 at 8:52 am
Would raising taxes 20,000 years ago have stopped the ice sheet from melting?

No, and I sure am glad that during the “Coming Ice Age” scare cooler heads prevailed.
The only heating of the planet going on right now is the feverish itch to conduct Frankenstein Monster experiments on the Climate based on the whim of idiots armed with straight-edge pencil lines. And, of course, all the sweaty greed that comes with the high-pressure sales pitch. They want to trade CO2 into another economic bubble.

kadaka (KD Knoebel)
May 5, 2010 1:47 am

From jeff brown on May 4, 2010 at 9:55 pm:

Are you up to speed on the latest CO2 research regarding plants? Do you know that too much CO2 also kills plants?

From the Wikipedia(!) Carbon Dioxide article, “Agricultural and biological applications” section:

Plants require carbon dioxide to conduct photosynthesis. Greenhouses may (and of large size – must) enrich their atmospheres with additional CO2 to sustain plant life and growth. A photosynthesis-related drop (by a factor less than two) in carbon dioxide concentration in a greenhouse compartment would kill green plants, or, at least, completely stop their growth. At very high concentrations (a factor of 100 or more higher than its atmospheric concentration), carbon dioxide can be toxic to animal life, so raising the concentration to 10,000 ppm (1%) or higher for several hours will eliminate pests such as whiteflies and spider mites in a greenhouse.

First part, a drop by a factor less than two can kill green plants. March 2010 atmospheric CO2 concentration was 389.44 ppm (according to the World Climate Widget), half of that is 194.72 ppm, and the mentioned amount was “a factor less than two”. So 200 ppm sounds about right.
BTW, that was just confirmation of the “plant death” number.
Second and main part, in greenhouses they are running up the concentrations very high to kill animal life without harming plants, over that duration of exposure. Here 1% was mentioned for killing certain bugs in greenhouses. Now let’s check out the “Toxicity” section:

Due to the health risks associated with carbon dioxide exposure, the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration says that average exposure for healthy adults during an eight-hour work day should not exceed 5,000 ppm (0.5%). The maximum safe level for infants, children, the elderly and individuals with cardio-pulmonary health issues is significantly less. For short-term (under ten minutes) exposure, the U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) and American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) limit is 30,000 ppm (3%). NIOSH also states that carbon dioxide concentrations exceeding 4% are immediately dangerous to life and health[48] although physiological experiments show that such levels can be tolerated for some time [49].

Healthy adults are “rated” for only 5000 ppm over 8 hours, while plants can handle twice that much for “several” hours. Interesting. Let’s look at the next piece of that section:

Adaptation to increased levels of CO2 occurs in humans. Continuous inhalation of CO2 can be tolerated at three percent inspired concentrations for at least one month and four percent inspired concentrations for over a week. It was suggested that 2.0 percent inspired concentrations could be used for closed air spaces (e.g. a submarine) since the adaptation is physiological and reversible. Decrement in performance or in normal physical activity does not happen at this level.[49][50] However, it should be noted that submarines have carbon dioxide scrubbers which reduce a significant amount of the CO2 present.[51]

For some reason, you’re talking about how too much CO2 can kill plants. Yet green plants can tolerate about 25 times the current atmospheric concentration, for at least several hours. Humans can adapt to higher CO2 levels, with 50 times the current atmospheric concentration suggested for closed air spaces.
I think it’s a given that we won’t be seeing atmospheric CO2 levels high enough that plant death from too much CO2 will ever be an issue, barring sudden planetary catastrophes that wipe out all biological conversion of CO2 to something else thus levels from natural sources like volcanoes would be allowed to rise practically unchecked, and in that case we and all the plants will be dead anyway.
So why mention it?

Editor
May 5, 2010 4:17 am

jeff brown says:
May 4, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Gee, Jeff, you’re reading an awful lot in to a simple comment.

May 5, 2010 4:23 am

#
Roger Knights says:
May 4, 2010 at 5:56 pm
@Ulric Lyons:
“The 60-year PDO cycle I cited is a simplification. It does not occur in regular 60-year cycles, and other oceanic multi-decadal cycles play a role as well. My impression from comments here is that the PDO has entered a cool phase (one in which La Nina events outnumber El Ninos).
Here’s the link (which I’m sure you’re familiar with) to some background on the subject: Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofu’s paper, “Two Natural Components of Recent Climate Change,” here (as a 50-Mb PDF):
http://people.iarc.uaf.edu/~sakasofu/little_ice_age.php
Roger, I don`t buy the 60yr cycle, as I have already explained, I consider it an illusion, a misinterpetation of temperature history, due to outliers, exceptionally warm or cold years/seasons that are completely contrary to the particular phase of the cycle at the time, causing distractions. Just look at the magnitude of these exceptions, they of greater magnitude than the cycle itself. The 60yr cycle makes no sense historically, globally or locally, it doesn`t work backwards, period.
Its simple, if you want a reliable Climate Change Index, well use the Arctic, you can see the cycle lengths far clearer there, its a really good thermometer.
What about integrating other KNOWN cycles (big up rbateman), for example the 17yr coronal hole cycle that is clearly visible in weather, precipitation, tree rings, the life cycle of the Cicada, and that produces the strongest monthly temperature string on CET? Flood/drought cycles of 18yrs that coincide with peaks of world temperature?
We clearly are dealing with a number of cycles that may be factorised and identified,
but need to be re-synthesized to effectively reproduce or hidcast past observations,
and hence predict with any certainty.
Surely a London cabbie could appreciate that.

JPeden
May 5, 2010 6:39 am

“Anu says:
May 4, 2010 at 12:42 pm”
“nedhead says:
May 4, 2010 at 2:29 pm”
Ignore, deny, repeat, repeat, repeat. QED

May 5, 2010 7:34 am

Ulric Lyons says:
May 5, 2010 at 4:23 am
What about integrating other KNOWN cycles (big up rbateman), for example the 17yr coronal hole cycle that is clearly visible in weather, precipitation, tree rings, the life cycle of the Cicada,

Really, care to explain how that works?

May 5, 2010 11:21 am

#
Phil. says:
May 5, 2010 at 7:34 am
Ulric Lyons says:
May 5, 2010 at 4:23 am
“What about integrating other KNOWN cycles (big up rbateman), for example the 17yr coronal hole cycle that is clearly visible in weather, precipitation, tree rings, the life cycle of the Cicada,
Really, care to explain how that works?”
Curiously, short term solar activity, such as incresed solar wind velocity from coronal holes for example, will return to cause a positive temperature feature in the same month, every 17yrs. A number of 17yr years strings can be found in the same, and other months. This creates a repeating pattern of weather types in the seasons of certain years, and a different pattern in other years. Changes of temperature, relative to the seasons, cause a direct effect on precipitation. Heat in summer creates dryness, while a temperature drop in the summer causes a jump in rainfall. This first bit I got from Erl Happ. I then worked for myself that the inverse of this occurs in winter, when cold is dry, but a rise in temperature in winter will cause a precipitation event.
The Equinoxes are more complicated.
The Cicada are working with a temperature/rainfall pattern that returns fairly reliably every 17yrs in certain years. Typically 12 out the 17 possible years are more ideal for their needs, the number of brood years.
Other monthly strings have noted by many people, such as the 23yr string. Look at every 23rd November going back from 2009 for example, on CET or any other N.H temperature series.

jeff brown
May 5, 2010 1:28 pm

kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
May 5, 2010 at 1:47 am
Some recent tree mortality numbers:
in the southwestern US, more than 12,000 square km have seen increased mortality rates, killing 40-97% of trees in some sights in less than 3 years [Breshears et al., 2005; McDowell et al., 2008]. This die-off was more severe than mortality events of the 1950s.
in western Canada, millions of trees across 130,000 sq-km of pine forest died in 6 years [Kurz et al., 2008]. Reports of extensive tree mortality have been reported in Africa, Asia, Australi, Europe and South America [Allen et al., 2010].
Most of the above are insect-driven mortality that is related to increased drought conditions and warmer temperatures. Note that models under increased GHGs predict large changes in temperatures and precipitation across the globe (with the largest uncertainties in the precipitation).
Besides the insect-driven mortality, over the past few decades old forests of the western US have shown doubled tree mortality rates (probably related to temperature increases, see van Mantgem et al., 2009). Long-term data from pan-Amazonian forest surveys recently documents effects from a severe drought in 2005, with reduced growth and increased tree mortality driving a marked shift in forest carbon balance [Phillips et al., 2009].
Studies are currently focusing on the mechanisms causing these large tree die-outs. It is unclear if starvation occurs from reduced photosynthesis or a water-stress-induced inability to use stored carbon. Increased temperatures enhance the proliferation of tree-pests which also kill the trees.
With large forest die-outs, the impact of forests as a carbon sink can change. Right now, terrestrial ecosystems absorb 33% of anthropogenic carbon emissions during the 1990s [Bonan, 2008]. It could be that this sink is going to change. For example, in British Columbia, beetle outbreaks reduced the carbon sink by 270 megatons over 20 years. This even reversed the carbon sequestration gains of the previous 20 years across millions of hectares of forest [Kurz et al., 2008]. Chapin et al., 2008 suggest that CO2 released following forest die-out could easily exceed carbon sequestration enhancements from elevated CO2 promoting forest growth.
It is way more complicated than what you found in Wikepedia…

kadaka (KD Knoebel)
May 5, 2010 1:58 pm

Re: jeff brown on May 5, 2010 at 1:28 pm

It is way more complicated than what you found in Wikepedia…

This does happen, but still…
So to recap:
You say “Do you know that too much CO2 also kills plants?”
I respond by showing how atmospheric concentrations are unlikely to reach levels where the plants need to worry about it.
Your next post, you’re talking about forest die-offs, which have naturally happened for many millenia, and how they can be related to bug infestations, higher temps, and drought conditions, all of which have occurred naturally for many millenia.
Thus I will conclude we are in general agreement that the plants have nothing to worry about concerning elevated atmospheric CO2 levels.
Now that was a productive discussion! It’s been nice talking with you.

skye
May 5, 2010 3:43 pm

Looks like the Arctic sea ice is taking a sharp turn downwards. The idea of a recovery that has been floating around this blog site might not hold up for much longer…

May 5, 2010 5:36 pm

Ulric Lyons says:
May 5, 2010 at 11:21 am
#
Phil. says:
May 5, 2010 at 7:34 am
Ulric Lyons says:
May 5, 2010 at 4:23 am
“What about integrating other KNOWN cycles (big up rbateman), for example the 17yr coronal hole cycle that is clearly visible in weather, precipitation, tree rings, the life cycle of the Cicada,
Really, care to explain how that works?”
Curiously, short term solar activity, such as incresed solar wind velocity from coronal holes for example, will return to cause a positive temperature feature in the same month, every 17yrs. A number of 17yr years strings can be found in the same, and other months. This creates a repeating pattern of weather types in the seasons of certain years, and a different pattern in other years. Changes of temperature, relative to the seasons, cause a direct effect on precipitation……
The Cicada are working with a temperature/rainfall pattern that returns fairly reliably every 17yrs in certain years. Typically 12 out the 17 possible years are more ideal for their needs, the number of brood years.

So why does it effect those cicadas on the East coast (Brood X) differently from those in upper NY state (Brood VII) so that they’re three years out of sync? And why doesn’t it effect the cicadas in the southern states (Brood XIX) at all since they have a 13 year cycle?

May 5, 2010 7:25 pm

Cicada broods hatch based on a Fibonacci number of years. It has to do with avoiding predators. You could even look it up. ☺