According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the SFO airport has now installed carbon offset purchase kiosks so that you can remove the guilt from your flight. Only one problem. The carbon offsets sold by kiosk sell at a rate that is about 60 times what carbon credits are actually selling for on the market now. There’s no frequent flyer polluter discount either.
Here’s what the kiosk start screen looks like according to the company website:
You can run the kiosk interactively yourself here. Let’s say you chose the “Use Typical Flight Distances” option. This is the screen you’d get:
If I chose the medium range flight at 2000 miles, the cost would be 11.44 for 1869 pounds of CO2 that is estimated to be emitted on my behalf. That works out to about $12.24 per ton of CO2.
Here’s the rub, you can buy a ton of carbon offset on the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) for 20 cents. That’s about 60 times less than what you would pay at the SFO kiosk!
Here’s the closing numbers from CCX yesterday:
From CCX: Price and volume reported in metric tons CO2. Change based on previous day’s closing price.
P.T. Barnum would be proud.
UPDATE: Maybe they set the price last year during early planning when carbon was at $7 per ton?
It appears there was a big selloff last Friday, when investors got wind of a major suspension by the UN before it hit the press. On Sept 11th, there were 292,500 transactions (largest in over a month) and the price fell from the previous day closing price of 25 cents:
The Sunday Times has the story:
The legitimacy of the $100 billion (£60 billion) carbon-trading market has been called into question after the world’s largest auditor of clean-energy projects was suspended by United Nations inspectors.
No wonder carbon offsets are falling to 20 cents a ton. Coal is still much more valuable at 40-50 dollars a ton.
Anthony,
There appears to be no market for carbon at the moment at 20 cents per tonne.
We might as well call the price zero.
Dammit, I knew I should have invested in that company. Could have made a killing!
Papal indulgences relived!
What a scam! P.T. Barnum would be proud!
Does the airport kiosk include a confession booth?
I would really like to see their books.
Some one (Climate Passport?) is making a lot of money! Of course the SF area is prime territory for the global warming scam so lots of suckers will be handing over their dollars without cringing.
“A coin in the carbon coffer rings a soul from Carbon Purgatory Springs? ”
Trouble is we get no Sistine Chapel in the deal.Oh, Algore may get an engine
an Engine overhaul on the G-V….
Smug alert!…
This should make S.F. proud and our democratic congress more than happy. Although it looks way better than cap and tax as it is voluntary and is at a better ratio as there is no global warming.
Why does this market need a middle man? If one is going to give away money to a cause, why not just send the check straight to a favorite charity that promotes reforestation? The middle man is totally unnecessary here.
No regulatory system on earth can prevent financial abuse when trading in a commodity that isn’t real is permitted.
Amazing! This is just like buying an indulgence in the Middle Ages. In this case we seem to have changed one religion for another.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_pardon_for_sins_in_Medieval_Europe
tonyb
Surely that is a Scam and should be stopped? Plus presumably they get your credit card details?
Is it an Al Gore company?
REPLY: I’m unsure of the credit card issue, but like any transacting merchant, they must abide by the terms and service agreement of the credit card company as well as state and federal law. Let’s not jump to any conclusions beyond the overpriced cost per ton. – Anthony
“Here’s the rub, you can buy a ton of carbon offset on the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) for 20 cents. That’s about 60 times less than what you would pay at the SFO kiosk!”
Yeah, but when you get to Chicago, you can pay ANOTHER 20 cents on top of the 12 dollars you paid at the other kiosk.
That’s that new carbon indulgence refund they just invented : )
sure, they’re 60x the going rate…
but they come with EXTRA guilt transference!
there’s no business like showbusiness!!!
Now why didn’t we think of easy-access self-flagellation kiosks before? It’s an idea that just sells itself!
How much power do these consume?
Wow, a machine that takes people’s money and gives them absolutely nothing in return? And people put money in it?
Is this a great country or what?
I’d like to buy a few of these machines myself and put them out on the street. Anybody here know how much of a kickback the mob will demand? (I don’t want to get my knees broken.)
I don’t quite understand where the Chicago price comes from.
Look at :
http://www.pointcarbon.com/
The market price is 13.6 Euro per ton which is roughly 20 Dollars per ton.
I have 2,800 pounds of anthracite coal in my cellar that I use to heat my home for one year.
Now if the carbon offset people will buy it from me at about 60 cents a pound that will stop me from burning the coal and I can use the money to buy enough propane to heat my home for 3 years.
Are they offering franchises? Think of the possibilities!
Hey! This isn’t being run by ACORN, is it?
The “Where does the money go?” screen contains the following statement:
… as well as covering costs associated with locating, researching, and verifying high quality projects as well as the other general operating costs …
Translation: your money goes into our paychecks.
I wonder what percentage goes to the Garcia River Forest Project and what percentage is “overhead”. Many “do good” organizations that rely on donations have so much overhead that the bulk of donations go to fund the organization and only a small fraction goes to the actual cause. For example, less than 10% of donations to the March of Dimes goes to their cause. I wonder how well these folks do. I’m willing to bet not very well.
I’m all for it. People dumb enough to purchase carbon offsets are going to get fleeced some other way, so this is as good a scam as any.
I wouldn’t pay anyone 20¢ per ton unless they were willing to deliver it to my house.
A fool and his money are easily parted.
Where’s the product?
Where’s the service?
Is this a liscensed charity?
Selling carbon credits has clearly led to the recovery of Arctic ice this year.
(You know it’s coming)
Not so sure on this one. Fact is if there is a demand there will at some time be a supply. As long as this firm and others function on market terms and not by public subsidies or government contracts…. then what is the harm?
Its like people paying for stuff i don’t personally care about. Its their choice and as long as it is not done ‘collectively’ it does not harm my wallet. I can agree that I would never myself pay for this product and find it ridiculous – but if a ‘tree-hugger’ sleeps better at night…. then I couldn’t care less – other than having one more amusing thing to laugh at.
Silly waste of money and ineficient allocation of personal ressources? Yes.
A scam? No. Only if in fact the firm does not spend the majority of potential profits and a significant part of revenue on reforestation does it constitute a scam.
And just as a minor point. Unless one would argue that the carbon offset market is an efficient market it hardly constitutes a fair or reasonable benchmark.
Even if we would stretch our imagination and take the carbon offset market as efficient it is for a global market whereas the underlying market and thus costs for this specific firm is local. Nothing wrong with reforestation being more expensive in California than in other parts of the world. That this imply inefficient use of the revenue stream is merely another thing to be amused about.
Why are “vintage” ’09 and’10 more valuable than previous years ?
There is a sucker born every minute, fill them with guilt and fear and then offer them redemption(at a price) and they are putty in your hands, the snake oil salesmen did their business in the same way in the old west, the dark ages priesthood made a killing for centuries.
The carpet bagger capitalists set this scam up to net billions, creaming off the wealth of an entire civilisation like a Chicago mob, money talks.
The sucker pays up, the polititians get their cut, its the numbers game from 1920s Chicago, the gangsters get rich and the mug sucker gets fleeced, its as old as civilisation.
Where there is easy money to be made, the carpet bagger camp followers are never far behind, where the herd goes the wolves follow. The poltical classes have found that by enlisting the foolish,the gullible,the naive,the fanatical,the cynical,the crooked in a giant cartel they can rig the roulette wheel/slots to jackpot every time.
The masses pay the price of course, they suffer so the few can gorge themselves on wealth and power, some things never change.
Clever enterprising people taking money from stupid, self-loathing, naiive people is a good thing. The market system working correctly.
Great idea. A fine life insurance company sold travel insurance also from machines. It is incredibly cheap to buy insurance from a regular source for a term policy.
Much of this ordeal is grounded on creating guilt feelings.
This is a brilliant scam!
What’s more, it is almost certainly legal, especially given its location.
Where can I buy one of these machines? That’s what I call profit margin, AWESOME!!!
The Clean Air Conservancy provides an on-line emissions calculator and way to “retire the equivalent amount in CO2 emission reduction credits” using PayPal.
http://www.cleanairconservancy.org/calculator_air_info.php
By their calculation a 2,000 mile airline flight generates 0.36 metric tons of CO2 compared to Climate Passport’s 0.85 metric tons. Even if Climate Passport’s calculation is based on a round-trip (4,000 miles total — the web site is unclear on this point) the numbers still don’t match.
Plus, the Clean Air Conservancy charges “only” $7.27/ton to retire the credits.
At best Climate Passport is a high priced impulse purchase. At worst it short changes the environment by over charging for its product. Put another way, it’s ripping off the environment.
It’s too bad I have a conscience… I was all prepared to get into this kind of thing a few years back. I suspect that ANYone doing this is soon enough exposed to the reality, but some people choose to go ahead with it anyway.
Personally, I find it repugnant, disgusting, foul manipulation (fleecing) of the ignorant.
So is SFO the only airport with such a ‘convenience’? I can’t imagine so. Can’t wait to hear which US region has the most gullible travelers.
The guy marketed ‘Pet Rocks’ made a Fortune. But at least you got a rock out of the deal!
Definately circulatating this story!!!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2343017/posts
Thanks Anthony!
I read elsewhere that the average American uses about 40,000 lbs of CO2 a year – about 20 tons, if I recall the correct conversion. At 20 cents a ton, that works out to $4.00 a year for the average American.
I’m surprised there is any market at all for CO2 at the moment, especially among private citizens. Actually, I take that back. For $100 you could pay for your carbon footprint for the next 25 years. I’m surprised all the believers of AGW are not jumping on this low cost to pay off their guilty conscious for much of the rest of their life – or even using the low market as a sales gimmick to try to get the federal government to add a new $5 annual carbon tax per person in each household (or perhaps added to each household’s electric bill). The extra dollar is to cover overhead. At about 300+ million people in the US it should be more than enough – even taking government inefficiency and inflation over the next decade or so into account.
“That’s about 60 times less than…”
Arrrgh!
I know that phrasing has become commonplace these days. But every time I read that type of mathematically illiterate construct it just makes me cringe. I suppose ‘1/60th’ just doesn’t command attention. Why, that’s HUGELY smaller! It’s ENORMOUSLY tiny by comparison.
As to the actual point of the post, while you and I might think this usurious, why don’t we just call it what it is: A Stupidity Tax.
MikeW
This is awesome! I now know that I have an additional entertainment source when waiting for a flight at SFO: Laughing at the morons who use this kiosk.
No. P.T. Barnum would be jealous as hell. You can also buy them on Ebay.
There’s one born every minute…… a sucker that is.
Come in Spinner!!!!!
So what? Sucker born every minute. I only wish I had thought of it first.
Free markets.
Buyer Beware.
This is a non-story.
Overpriced, yes, but how much guilt can you assuage for 20 cents? Our carbon sins are so great that we have to be punished for them!
Hey, it just occurred to me: a kiosk that could also administer a good spanking should make a fortune. 🙂
We have a government department called the SFO in Britain
Any guesses.
http://www.sfo.gov.uk/
I’ve got a deal for the folks inclined to buy credits from this kiosk or other similar ones. Go ahead and calculate your cost. Then multiple that amount by 2 and send me the sum in American dollars. You will feel twice as good about your efforts. I will plant a tree for every check over $15 I receive and another for each additional $25. I am primarily interested in wildlife habitat for small birds, raptors, and small mammals and for an additional $5 I will send you a digital photo taken by me (provide your e-mail address on your check) from one of the three categories mentioned – your choice, of course. I also have a very nice photo of a cinnamon-colored black bear available for $25 and will plant a huckleberry bush for him if your check clears.
Thanks for all your help, John.
Paraphase from the Simpsons.
Homer: Well the Bear Patrol is sure working out well, not a bear in sight
Lisa: Dad that is like saying this rock is a Tiger Repelling Rock because there are no Tigers around
Homer: How much for that rock?
If you are going to buy something that does not do anything, it may as well be overpriced.
It’s strictly a voluntary transaction. It’s the best of the free market at work. Someone is providing something that some buyers (not me!) value. IMO, a fool and his moeny are soon parted, but I still say more power to ’em if they can buy carbon credits for next to nothing and sell them for a bundle.
However, Harold Vance (09:32:21) :, makes this excellent observation.
“Why does this market need a middle man? If one is going to give away money to a cause, why not just send the check straight to a favorite charity that promotes reforestation? The middle man is totally unnecessary here.”
Government, more and more, is playing the role of middleman in activities that aren’t really any business of government order to take a cut of the action. Sadly, that’s just the way it is nowadays.
The higher price appears to be using what is called a convenience mark-up or in some cases, an admitted tacked on convenience fee. I am attending Lewis and Clark for some administrators classes. You can pay your tuition online. If you use a direct account method there is no extra charge. If you use a credit card, there is an added convenience fee of between 3 and 5% of tuition. Kiosks are nearly always placed in a busy area for convenience purposes and therefore have to rent the space they sit in, be serviced regularly, and so on. The added price of carbon offsets included increased overhead, convenience, profit margin, and just because they can.
I agree that this isn’t that big of a deal. There are literally hundreds of ways to stupidly waste one’s money at a major airport – supplemental rental car insurance, anyone? Adding one more shouldn’t make much of a difference.
It’s basically an automated version of a person seeking charitable contributions for a particular cause. I wonder if we’ll start seeing WWF or Oxfam kiosks next?
Wearing a cilicium would be cheeper.
A sucker born every minute……………………..
I want in on this scam.
I would make sure that I said that all materials in the kiosk were made out of recycled seaweed. I would also indicate that the power used was generated for 100% renewable sources.
Then I would charge 100X.
Ah, guilt. What a wonderful thing!
Actually, I’m considering something similar. Except it’s designed for those who enjoy hunting. I have a number of acres on which prowl a variety of wild trees. I plan to offer one-on-one hunting expeditions to bag a trophy tree for those who would enjoy having one in their den or trophy room. Fee’s are scaled according to the size, rarity, and difficulty of tracking the beast with a minimum of $5k non-refundable deposit. Hunters must provide their own edged weapon and related equipment and suitable clothing. No powered weapons are allowed in order to make it a fair fight, and the hunter is responsible for packing out the trophy, etc. Hunters will be required to sign a release as I cannot be responsible for death or injury. Children and wives are welcome and suitably challenging game is available for them also.
As a suggested title – -The inflated price of guilt.
I thought religion had that market tied up.
paulakw (11:04:44) :
A sucker born every minute……………………..
These suckers aren’t born, they’re hatched.
CodeTech (10:29:02) : “…Personally, I find it repugnant, disgusting, foul manipulation (fleecing) of the ignorant.”
There’s no business like schmoe business.
Meanwhile, in just a couple of days, the 2009 line for Arctic Sea Ice Extent will cross above the 2005 line. The Great Global Warming Swindle goes on with the blessing of politicians and the mainstream media.
Everything costs more at the airport. Besides, you also get the convenience of the kiosk.
It is a 6,000% Markup:
a car costs a car dealer $20,000–… a 6,000% markup would be retail price $1,220,000–
Sounds like a deal to me! LOL
Right on Anthony,
Free markets are the heart and soul of capitalism. Brian Johnson uk may not understand that concept. You offer a product that satisfies a consumer’s need. Ideally, the receipts, minus operating expenses, are a positive number (Profit). This particular operation, admittedly inefficient, buys $0.20/1 ton credits, honoring the consumer’s expectations, and pays another $0.04 for operating expenses, resulting in a $12.00 profit.
The key to capitalism is competition. I am nearly certain I can offer this valuable and incredibly ethical service for half the price and still make a meager profit of only $6.00/1 ton credit while brining the cost down so that it will no longer be just for the wealthy and privileged.
Pardon me if I get choked up a little here. <;-(
Another secret of lowering costs is volume marketing. My discount (only $6.24/1 ton) credits will see demand virtually explode ( a carbon free explosion) resulting in a commanding lead in market share. If there are any honest members of Congress left, my lobbyists will be able to appeal to their better nature to make this enterprise tax exempt (it's nearly religious in nature) and my customers will be able to claim the $0.20 as a tax exemption.
Can government subsidies be far behind. This is a "Green $$$ Jobs" opportunity if I ever saw one.
Robert M. Marshall
P.S. I would'nt think of abusing their credit card info, I want repeat customers.
For fun I made a calculation Sweden – Thailand a month ago: 17,376 km (10,797 miles) 3.8 tonnes CO2 offset price EUR 46.68 = USD 68.71. Takes 80 years with tree planting, but can be done in three years with blue-mussel cultivation. 72 tonnes of mussels yield ten weight percent shells fixing 3.2 tonnes CO2. Gives a bonus of 64 tonnes mussel meat with market price USD 52,532. With oysters the shell yield is doubled.
And the shells last forever dumped in the sea.
Well Anthony, this thread seems to be this week’s comdey central; so it seems like a good place to mention another touch of insanity I just came across; courtesy of the staff at Scientific American Magazine.
For a start they are demanding that I renew my SA subscription this week although my last issue does not arrive till January 2010. After somewhere between 35 and 40 years of continuous subscription, plus a gift subscription to a friend of a mere 30 years, I am seriously considering dropping SA (at least for me) since it has become far to political, and not too scientific any more.
So the piece de resistance comes from this month’s (Oct) issue, in the energy and environment section; an article called “The Way the Wind Blows” by somebody named Michael Moyer (no affiliation given)
In this article about wind turbines, we learn some completely new Physics.
According to Mr (Dr?) Moyer, the power output from wind turbines is an EXPONENTIAL function of the wind speed. Not just once does he say that; but twice. Well I see that the origin of this silliness is actually a Team led by a Sara Pryor; Professor, and Chair, of the Atmospheric Sciences Program, at Indiana University.
So gone is the old regime when wind power depended on the cube of the wind speed; to be replaced by an even faster change with wind speed of exponential growth.
The world gets sillier and sillier.
Prior and her team also claim that because of global warming, wind speeds are declining; which of course is why they do more damage these days; but it is going to mean in the future less wind power available.
So there you have it folks; all around will become still as well as ice free, and there will be no future for wind power.
George
For guilt free flying and driving I get my carbon offsets, millions at a time, from http://www.freecarbonoffsets.com
“John Luft (09:52:37) :
Hey! This isn’t being run by ACORN, is it?”
George Soros owns American Progress which owns Climate Progress. (Joe Romm)
Joe Romm reports to John Podesta who was Clintons chief of staff.
Podesta is on ACORN’s board.
You were making a funny and didn’t know that Climate progress and ACORN have connections. Soros is big in novel trading instruments. I can name 4 other close connections between ACORN carbon trading and the Green groups we hear nothing about.
Podesta, Clinton, Hansen and Enron were strapped together in the earliest carbon trading game. Enron was also into trading SO2 and NO and other pollution indulgences.
Just a thought but doesn’t this meet all of the requirements for a ‘stupid tax’.
D. Matteson (09:47:46) :
I have 2,800 pounds of anthracite coal in my cellar that I use to heat my home for one year.
Now if the carbon offset people will buy it from me at about 60 cents a pound that will stop me from burning the coal and I can use the money to buy enough propane to heat my home for 3 years.
You mean Cash for Clinkers?
I find the link to the CCX especially interesting. If you look at the chart, volume died in June of this year as the price slumped to an all-time low. Even though global temperatures have run near 20-year highs since then, apparently the market no longer believes that carbon has any value in the story.
Airports have water fountains. with markup you can buy bottled water for a few dollars a bottle. It would cost a lot of front money to purchase an airport concession space.
Back to the main topic. Enron began the carbon indulgence trading scheme by lobbying the Clintons. Enron also went on an acquisition tear buying foreign water utilities. Enron liked water because it provided for monopolies. This Carbon credit machine is also an example of a monopoly. If you are checked in for a flight, you can’t trip elsewhere and buy these indulgences closer to wholesale price.
It is also airports that are candidates for a Pay Toilets. People will pay for convenience. ( I thought Johnny Cash was a pay toilet It is music?)
For some reason this reminded me of the old saying:
“The state lottery is a tax on the statistically challenged”.
Climate Passport is a program of the City of San Francisco.
“The San Francisco Airport is an important partner of the San Francisco Carbon Fund. SFO’s new carbon kiosks allow individuals to calculate the carbon footprint of any given flight, and purchase offsets that support local carbon projects.
“The San Francisco Carbon Fund is an innovative carbon reduction program that invests monies from activities that produce climate damaging greenhouse gas pollution (such as air travel) into local projects that reduce greenhouse gas pollution and support local economic development. All of the projects in the Fund take place within San Francisco’s boundaries and thus contribute directly to the sustainability of our shared future. The SFCarbon Fund is completely transparent, accountable, and creates real benefits for San Francisco’s citizenry and environment …
Link to Climate Passport
http://www.sfenvironment.org/our_programs/topics.html?ssi=6&ti=85
I’m reminded of Starbucks and the Ethos water scheme. Ethos water was formed as a “non-profit” with the goal of hydrating the 3rd world. Starbucks offered to donate $.05/bottle of their sale to ethos. Then guess what…
Nary a ripple in the news pond when Starbucks bought Ethos, hiked the price/bottle $.15, and gloated about how they were saving the planet.
I noticed upon some digging that TCF and NCIF have roots tricky to uncover. What’s interesting to note is that the Garcia River Forest does do logging…but at a “reduced” scale…I guess you gotta have some place to plant the new trees.
Some of the rest of your carbon donation goes to $250,000 clumps of small business loans. Hmmmmmm…….
Mark my words, this will end up becoming another ponsai-ish scheme like Amway or ACN Energy here in California a few years ago. I can just see it now. The add in the local Penny Pincher:
Last year I bought 200 lbs of coal at $8.00.
200 lbs of coal will heat my entire house 8 hours an evening ( I only burn coal at night as to not bother my neighbors) for 6 months. I also only burn coal when the outside temp is below 30 degrees. This saves me $50.00 a month in natural gas in the winter.
Checked my Aeroplan (Air Canada connected) airmiles website for comparison.
For 15000 airmiles, we can purchase a short haul return ticket; or 6.4 tonne of carbon offsets. Most people say that an airmile reward program has a value of one cent a mile. The nominal value of 15,000 then is $150.
My math gives $23.44 per tonne. Looks like we can do it better.
An even bigger scam than we previously thought.
This concept has inspired me!
I am going to invent a kiosk that you put $20 into.
A panel on the top will open and a mechanical arm will extend out, placing $1 in a mail box to be sent towards saving the planet.
A panel near the bottom will open and a mechanical foot will extend out, then kick you swiftly in the groin.
A receipt will then be printed for tax purposes with a disclaimer that you got what you deserved.
I hope all the environmentalist and Democrat wackos line up out the door to put money into that machine.
All those people wrestling with their guilt complex about polluting the World’s atmosphere with CO2! Buying carbon credits so they can look into the mirror again the next day!
Wake up dudes, there is nothing wrong with putting CO2 up there.
More CO2 equals more plant life, more plant life equals more food and more food is needed to support our growing populations.
CO2 is not a toxic gas, it’s the gas of life.
So, the next time you board a jetliner, just think “spreading the wealth”.
So stop buying those carbon credits because in realty they should be paying you!
Global Warming is a natural cycle, enjoy it as long as it lasts.
http://globalwarmingnatural.blogspot.com/2009/09/carbon-dioxe-cycle.html
I wonder how much money they’ll make from that scheme there, and will it turn out to have the same popularity as the AGW exhibit at San Fran’s new science museum?
Also, a little off topic, but if the prediction made here comes true people in the Eastern US would be wishing the Farmer’s almanac would’ve been more accurate and no one would be thinking about carbon credits
http://truthbehindthescience.blogspot.com/2009/09/09-10-brut-force-predictions-suns.html
The gem is his predicted big chill in D.C. I wonder what would happen to the Cap&Trade bill if the heater in the Capital and White-house broke down?
Michael (12:35:48) :
I hope all the environmentalist and Democrat wackos line up out the door to put money into that machine.
——————————–
Don’t go there Michael. It would be OUR money they would be putting in the machine.
Ok boys and girls. Don’t forget to donate to the Anthony Watts Safe the Sunspot Fund,
All donations will be used to give the baby ice a fighting chance.
>> Mark said: Papal indulgences relived!
Wrong! A Papal indulgence actually does something.
Dr Max – where did the much greater CO2 concentrations of eons ago finish up? Mostly in limestone and dolomite. And where did the limestone and dolomite come from? From atmospheric CO2 combined with calcium. Where did the calcium come from? Molluscs.
I’m with N Ash (10:37:04), and I will look into buying a few 100 tonnes for the next so many years … Sarkozy of France has just introduced some carbon taxes, and since every Government in the Old World runs a HUGE deficit, one can be sure that the others will follow with taxes “to save the planet” … 100$ now might prove a good investment …
I forgot to mention that the link I posted came via Climate Depot.
Just promoting traffic.
A small portion of the donation may be used to supplement the fix Martins Dyslexia fund.
D’oh! I wish I had thought of this. Nothing like a redistribution of wealth from you to me. Or maybe I can set up a kiosk in some other airport … be right back.
If one really believes that human emissions of CO2 will cause climate catastrophe, one would immediately and sacrificially cease as many CO2 producing activities as possible. Air travel should be at the top of the list.
With the AGW faithful, this is not the case – especially the Hollywood and D.C. crowd. The notion of carbon offsets along with other forms of eco-fluff allows them to avoid any truly inconvenient lifestyle changes and therefore reveals their true beliefs.
If I were found by our State’s Department of Environmental Quality to be dumping raw sewage in the creek that runs by my house, I would be forced to stop. I would not be allowed to continue by paying a few bucks to someone else.
I despise the hipocrisy.
I think a great marketing addition to this scheme would be having skin-head incense-selling Hari Krishnas at each kiosk. For an additional $10/ton, they’d leave you alone.
Who cares? Anyone stupid enough to pay carbon credits for their flight deserves to get ripped off.
tallbloke (10:03:21) :
I understand everything except: where did the fool get the money in the first place?
This is incredibly funny – almost Pythonesque!
The only problem, and it’s a big one, is that according to buinessgreen.com, “global revenue at firms providing climate change-related products and services grew by a record 75 per cent during 2008 to $530bn (£324bn), making the fast-growing sector larger than the aerospace and defence industries. ”
Now call me old-fashioned if you like, but even if AGW were real, that’s degree of growth in any sector shouts out the word “Bubble”…and we all know what happens to them!
Once again, just as in the sub-prime mortgage market, banks are heavily involved. Only difference is that this time it’s much, much bigger.
Dear me, won’t they ever learn?
Sorry, forgot the businessgreen link:
http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2249742/climate-related-revenues-soar
Laugh now. Wait until SFO or some other green wannabe makes Carbon Credits a mandatory surcharge on your airplane ticket.
Hydrogen and stupidity. Perhaps not in that order.
TonyB (09:35:35) :
Amazing! This is just like buying an indulgence in the Middle Ages. In this case we seem to have changed one religion for another.
Luther’s Thesis 86 asks…
“Why does not the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?”
Why does not Albert Gore buy these credits and distribute them free to guilty greens at the gate?
In 2004, the 23,780-acre Garcia River Forest became California’s first large nonprofit-owned working forest, and in February 2008 became one of the first forests – and the largest – to receive verification of its carbon offsets by the California Climate Action Registry.
http://www.conservationfund.org/west/california/garcia
This is beyond stupid. Just throw your money in the street people. Guilt tax , only there is nothing to feel guilty about, you’re just giving fertilizer to plants and trees with more CO2 so they can grow bigger and quicker. This reminds me of one big Ponzi scheme.
Brent in Calgary
This kiosk is the “legal” equivalent of fake ATM machines that con artists install at various congregation points, such as airports, conventions, and malls, to steal money and credit card information from unwitting users. If you ever use one, the next thing you know, you would be bombarded with junk carbon offset offers asking you to buy carbon indulgence certificates for everything from turning on your microwave to flushing your toilet at your home. This is just the tip of the giant, Antarctica ice-shelf size scam known as carbon cap-and-trade.
Meanwhile, back in the land of dollars and sense:
Spare capacity of 5.2 million bpd will be wiped out by 2012, Australian bank says
David Sheppard
LONDON — Reuters Last updated on Wednesday, Sep. 16, 2009 01:23PM EDT
Peak oil supply will be hit this year after the economic crisis and low prices in the first quarter of 2009 slashed much needed investment, a senior executive at Australian investment bank Macquarie said.
“This is our view – capacity has pretty much peaked in the sense that declines equal new resources,” Iain Reid, head of European oil and gas research at Macquarie, told Reuters.
The peak oil theory that oil supply is at or near its peak was long considered marginal.
It gained currency when prices zoomed towards their record of nearly $150 (U.S.) hit in July last year, with leading exponents suggesting various dates for the supply peak to be reached.
Some oil majors have acknowledged the prospect of dwindling production, but others have argued better extraction techniques and other technological advances will offset any decline.
Mr. Reid’s latest research report – The Big Oil Picture: We’re not running out, but that doesn’t mean we’ll have enough – sees global oil production capacity topping out at 89.6 million barrels per day (bpd) this year, a far more pessimistic view than most other banks or traditional forecasters.
Underinvestment in mature fields, rising resource nationalism, and the cost and difficulty of retrieving oil from discoveries in ultra-deep water could see global production capacity fall to 87.3 million bpd by 2015, according to Mr. Reid.
Perhaps someone in the US can help me out. Who prints these carbon indulgences currently? My understanding was that the in the US Gov is still in the ‘design’ process, not at the point of having printed certificates.
As I have said before, I can see even the most ardent planet huggers seeing this for the scam it is before long, if they haven’t already. $$$Trillion ‘fresh air’ markets in London and Chicago, ‘indulgences’ sold from vending machines on every street corner, Mauna Loa rising at the same old rate and temperatures falling regardless.
‘Scam’ will need a new entry in the OED before very long.
philincalifornia (10:11:20) :
(Completely OT question) Are you just ‘a’ ‘philincalifornia’ or did you once reside in England? (north)
Maybe the scam is in getting people to buy nice looking paper certificates?
I wouldn’t go so far as to actually put any money in the machine to find out what it spit out, but any allure it may have could be similar to machnes that squish a penny for a dollar.
philincalifornia (10:11:20) :
(Completely OT question) Are you just ‘a’ ‘philincalifornia’ or did you once reside in England? (north)
————————
I am actually ‘the’ philincalifornia, heh heh heh …. and yes, as I’ve mentioned on here more than once.
Don’t be so quick to send him your money. Send me the equivalent sum in British Pounds, I already have the trees and am just waiting to order the wildlife.
My 60ft Eucalyptus is just crying out for a Koala Bear, they are much cuter and huggable than the American black ones. Oh and also Koalas only eat leaves and CO2 and also read books in their spare time instead of eating all the other wildlife you would be paying for.
Oh, and also the ‘raptors’ he is about to help are Velociraptors, hideously ravenous 7ft high scaley carnivores. Did I mention that both ‘black bears’ and Velociraptors need 400lb of live screaming animal meat per day each that’s a lot of small birds and mammals (a typical Finch weighs only about 25g, young chicks even less).
It wasn’t from here, it was more to do with football (English – with the foot) and a northern (M62 corridor) club.
The only problem, and it’s a big one, is that according to buinessgreen.com, “global revenue at firms providing climate change-related products and services grew by a record 75 per cent during 2008 to $530bn (£324bn), making the fast-growing sector larger than the aerospace and defence industries. ”
Yes. But how much of that “Profit” is due to government subsidies???
Carbon offset kiosk at SFO sells carbon credits at 60 times the market rate
Well the whole carbon bogey / play to the simple peoples guilt / save the world – is a gigantic con.
This only illustrates another way where the general public are being ripped off.
I kind of want to buy a $100 or so of those twenty cent carbon credits. If they go back up to $8, yee ha. If not they will make a nifty group hysteria novelty item in a couple of decades. If the horror of cap n trade comes true, I guess it will take the edge off of owning all of my 4×4 trucks, snowmobiles, chainsaws and outboards.
There is no more real value in Carbon Offset Shares than there was in Credit Default Swaps. What if there was a Market and nobody came?
Vending machine, here vending machine, here boy! Go fetch daddy some greenbacks.
How about some Carbon Offset Trading Insurance?
Dr. Max (11:35:41) :
For fun I made a calculation Sweden – Thailand a month ago: 17,376 km (10,797 miles) 3.8 tonnes CO2 offset price EUR 46.68 = USD 68.71. Takes 80 years with tree planting, but can be done in three years with blue-mussel cultivation. 72 tonnes of mussels yield ten weight percent shells fixing 3.2 tonnes CO2. Gives a bonus of 64 tonnes mussel meat with market price USD 52,532. With oysters the shell yield is doubled.
And the shells last forever dumped in the sea.
Dr. Max, why pay money when nature already takes care of it.
The earth’s biomass now is at a very high level and so is the plankton production in our oceans.
More CO2 provides us with more life on the planet.
The carbon credit market collapse hasn’t hit SF yet…
Carbon credits, the next big sub-prime scam.
Does anyone else here think we need a global extraction of gullibility genes?
No is the short answer. Conditions are different this time – didn’t you get the e-mail.
The carbon markets are where your pension fund should be – what could go wrong?
Live in shame you wicked folk. Make all your donations here to atone for your sins .
http://www.carbonfund.org/Calculators/
I’m surprised no one has linked to this yet: clicky
I’ve already given myself about 687 trillion carbon credits. Good thing they don’t have exponents.
FAO 3X2
Yes again, and on the right side of the Yorkshire/Lancashire border !!!
M White (10:41:44) : “We have a government department called the SFO in Britain. Any guesses. http://www.sfo.gov.uk/”
And you also have HM Revenue & Customs who are increasing the Air Passenger Duty from 1st Nov 2009 for “environmental impact” reasons:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/air-passenger-700.htm
The further you fly, the more you pay.
Retired Engineer (13:46:05) : “Laugh now. Wait until SFO or some other green wannabe makes Carbon Credits a mandatory surcharge on your airplane ticket.”
No need to wait. See above.
Comes to something that we have an economy where I can buy carbon indulgences using my Linden Dollars and still think I made a profit. Does anyone else think that the Chinese are having a good laugh at the west right now?
Here Clutz(ette), borrow some more ‘money’ and play fantasy economy II – it’s like real life only it’s all VR OPM.
tallbloke (10:03:21) :
A fool and his money are easily parted.
… has the right of it!
Existence of theses devices is confirmed. I was in FO last weekend, there is one in the departure area for international flights.
Does it have a Kilner bank?
Now that we have established that people don’t want to buy Carbon…. We just have to stop Government from passing laws forcing us to…
With him there rode a gentle PARDONER
Of Rouncivalle (comrades and friends they were),
Who’d come straight from the court of Rome. And he
Would loudly sing “Come hither, love, to me!”
The Summoner bore him a stiff bass staff;
No trumpet ever sounded so by half.
The Pardoner’s hair was as yellow as wax,
But hung as smoothly as a hank of flax;
In little strands the locks ran from his head
Till over both his shoulders they were spread
And thinly lay, one here, another there.
In jolly spirit, he chose not to wear
His hood but kept it packed away. He rode
(Or so he thought) all in the latest mode;
But for a cap his long loose hair was bare.
Such glaring eyes he had, just like a hare!
A veronica was sewn upon his cap. 685
He had his bag before him in his lap,
Brimming with pardons hot from Rome. He’d speak
In voice as dainty as a goat’s. From cheek
To cheek he had no beard and never would,
So smooth his face you’d think he’d shaved it good.
I think he was a gelding or a mare.
But speaking of his craft, Berwick to Ware
There was no pardoner could take his place.
– The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer
Michael D Smith (10:19:32) :
Where can I buy one of these machines? That’s what I call profit margin, AWESOME!!!
I don’t think I’ve ever quoted myself here, but after posting that previous message and thinking about how valuable such a golden goose machine could be, it occurred to me that such a network of machines, selling overpriced carbon credits, could actually be the mechanism for finally getting AGW into court. Someone would feel hoodwinked by their guilty conscience’s decision to support a CO2 tariff / offset, and find out it was sold on an exchange for virtually nothing, and the profits went into MY POCKET. I am falling in love with this idea, WOW!!!
Consider me the first documented case ever of a skeptic turning into an alarmist. It’s over folks, signing out, buying machines now. Hmm, which bank to choose. CO2 is BAAAAD! Yaaaaayyyyy!
This whole thing is a rip-off on top of a rip-off.
MikeW (10:37:10) :
I agree with MikeW 110%. [Okay, 100%.]
If something costs $1, 60X less will be negative $59. Such a deal, I’ll take a dozen.
People don’t have trouble with smaller amounts, e.g. a 20% off sale or “buy one, get another for half off.”
I fear this may be a major part of my developing curmudgeonly ways, ans some of it is coming from reading here and continually being reminded that precision is important.
What does “1X more” mean? 100% more? 2X?
How about “I need 10X the fuel to reach California”? “I need 10X more fuel to reach California”?
There ought to be a Monty Python skit built around that.
OK, I’ve had it with this kind of rip off and me not getting any due to having a moral compass.
Time to compromise my values.
We need a carbon offset website with paypal billing, some way to automatically buy the carbon offsets from the exchange at nearly nothing a ton, and a BIG poster at the airport: “Buy your carbon offsets from your cell phone! $x/ton and instant service while you wait in the line, or the lounge!”
No staff, no labor cost, all automated.
Anyone up to fund this puppy?
Ka-Ching! (Will sell soul for $1,000,000+ tbd 1/2 :-}
3 decades ago, they sold us on margarine for health reasons and now they are trying to ban it for the same reasons. Years from now, they will PAY you for every ton of CO2 emitted, when they accept the fact, doubling CO2 increases some crops by as much as a third.
Personally, I think this is just a giant experiment to determine how many actually stupid people exist and how far they can take such hoaxs. When people will allow the air, they breathe, to be taxed, or they will pay for it, then nothing is too far fetched for the modern day snake-oilers.
Michael D Smith (18:42:37) :
I don’t think I’ve ever quoted myself here, but after posting that previous message and thinking about how valuable such a golden goose machine could be, it occurred to me that such a network of machines, selling overpriced carbon credits, could actually be the mechanism for finally getting AGW into court. Someone would feel hoodwinked by their guilty conscience’s decision to support a CO2 tariff / offset, and find out it was sold on an exchange for virtually nothing, and the profits went into MY POCKET. I am falling in love with this idea, WOW!!!
Consider me the first documented case ever of a skeptic turning into an alarmist. It’s over folks, signing out, buying machines now. Hmm, which bank to choose. CO2 is BAAAAD! Yaaaaayyyyy!
It’s been an hour now. Can I sue you yet? 🙂
I love the idea of taking money away from eco geeks by using their own religion against them. It’s so Alinsky-ish.
Say what you will, but it works. Best thing about it, it can work either direction.
It’s been an hour now. Can I sue you yet?
It’s only been a microsecond in geologic terms, sir… perhaps you have underestimated the effects I am describing. While the market for CO2 offsets seems to be in a bit of a funk, we also make a market in sea level rise, polar bear offsets, and ocean de-acidification, all of which seem to mesh very well with the personality traits we have determined from your previous responses here. Now, how can we be of assistance? What a gold mine! Oops. Are gold mines bad?
3×2 (18:17:24) :
philincalifornia (17:49:58) :
Does it have a Kilner bank?
————————-
Yes, of course.
It’s also the area that was the centre (center even) of the Luddite revolution – at least when the real action started.
With regard to AGW – you’ve probably read some of my posts over there. Just doing my duty and spreading the word. I get the impression from the responses (i.e. 100% of them) that they already know it’s a crock.
I’m also in a large e-mail group of UK current and ex-chemistry professionals, spread out throughout the world. They probably also don’t need my barrage of data – but they get it anyway (mostly culled from WUWT and its links).
Spread the word.
philincalifornia (23:11:08) :
3×2 (18:17:24)
Me Dad were from ‘Uddersfield – Slaithwaite!
At this time only the AGW faithful will buy these things, the trouble will come when it becomes manditory for all to buy them. Its a SCAM!
ps should I have put a comma in there somewhere?
Ian
canberra
“One born every minute.”
How about: “Never give a sucker an even break.” (c/o W.C. Fields)
————-
philincalifornia (17:49:58) :
FAO 3X2
“Yes again, and on the right side of the Yorkshire/Lancashire border !!!”
I may be prejudiced, but it sounds like the wrong side to me.
I don’t like to say ‘I told you so’, but here is an extract from my Carbon Credit article, written in November 2008 – before the UK had even gone into recession.
Quote:
Meanwhile, back at the financial dealing desks for Carbon Credits, another commodity is about to crash. But perhaps I should not use the term ‘commodity’, for Carbon Credits (CCs) are an abstract construct that have even less contact with the real world than our over-inflated monetary systems. If there was ever an emperor with no clothes, it is a carbon trader declaring that a CC is worth £30 or £20 or £10, or any other figure that he or she may invent. CCs are a new pyramid selling scheme, that only survives as long as someone is promoting it and as long as there are more gullible customers pilling into this new market. But there are not. A small element of science is beginning to doubt the Global Warming trends, fraud has destabilised the Carbon Trading market, and a global recession will flood this already unsteady market with millions of unwanted CCs. The price of a CC is about to fall through the floor, and I expect that the whole concept of a Carbon Trading market will fall over the cliff with it.
.
But I am going to anyway – ‘told you so’.
.
>>>Amazing! This is just like buying an indulgence in the
>>>Middle Ages. In this case we seem to have changed one
>>>religion for another.
Hmmmm. Is there a similarity here?
Roderic Borgia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pope_Alexander_Vi.jpg
Al Gore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Gore.jpg
.
For the unfamiliar Roderic Borgia (aka (Pope Alexander VI) was perhaps the most corrupt of the corrupt Catholic popes, selling indulgencies by the million and keeping a veritable harem of busty belles.
.
Selling to the stupid rich always was a good business proposition.
>>>Wow, a machine that takes people’s money and
>>>gives them absolutely nothing in return? And people
>>>put money in it?
>>>Is this a great country or what?
Hey, newcomer, you are WAY behind the drag-curve on this one – in fact nearly 2000 years behind. Here is the same machine, but circa AD 50 from Alexandria, Egypt.
http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/section21.html
Made by Hero (Heron) of Alexandria, it dispensed holy water at a hugely inflated price, for the benefit of the priesthood. (Probably the same water that was available outside in the horse-trough).
Guilt for money – it works every time – [snip; best not go there ~ Evan].
.
Allan M (03:00:36) :
I may be prejudiced, but it sounds like the wrong side to me.
————-
It’s the right side if you look on a map !!!!!!!
But to put it back in context, let’s put the Wars of the Roses thing aside, and focus our combined abilities to bear long-term grudges on the carbon offset scammers, shall we ?
commodity markets and speculators—they know there’s a sucker born every minute
From the website on where the money goes:
“The cost per ton for offsets purchased through the Climate Passport Carbon Calculator is $13.50. For every ton you purchase, $12.00 goes to purchasing carbon offsets from the Garcia River Forest Project as well as covering costs associated with locating, researching, and verifying high quality projects as well as the other general operating costs typically incurred by any organization. The remaining $1.50 goes to the San Francisco Carbon Fund to support local San Francisco carbon reduction projects.”
[snip – ad hom speculation]
I think that the kiosk is a great idea! It leaves the ignorant with less money to support the dangerous organizations such and the Sierra Club abd Green Peace.
If you truly beleived in AGW or the Green Mantra you just would not fly— no real need.
Paying offsets is a bit like a paedohpile puting $20 in the school fund and saying its OK— NO its not!
Just another example of its OK for us, but not for you
ralph (07:10:15) :
[snip]
I’m surprised this kind of talk is allowed here.
[REPLY – You have a point. It is snipped (including, of course, your copy of it). ~ Evan]
philincalifornia (08:06:58) :
Allan M (03:00:36) :
I may be prejudiced, but it sounds like the wrong side to me.
————-
It’s the right side if you look on a map !!!!!!!
But to put it back in context, let’s put the Wars of the Roses thing aside, and focus our combined abilities to bear long-term grudges on the carbon offset scammers, shall we ?
————
Just having fun.
I have heard that the only thing which will unite a Lancastrian and a Yorkshireman is the threat from the south. I shall imagine that carbon offsets are based in Surrey.
Allan M (13:37:52) :
Me too, just havin’ fun.
Somehow though, I really do feel that I will not be able to resist poking fun at THEM for many years to come, sometimes with the vitriol associated with having had to pay the bogus airline taxes for flying into and out of the U.K.
I’ll go with Sussex (that just came to mind after I checked the county cricket scores for today).
philincalifornia (13:57:25) :
At least the Championship came north!
Alright – Alright.
Now I’m lookin’ at the map from the south here, and the only thing between Lancaster and Yorkshire is Cowthorpe Plompton on an Oxton, a Cattail, and a Biggen Wighill.
And iffen you guys can’t squeeze a carbon credit from udderneath a ton of cowthrowpn’ onna Wighill, you need to stop complainin’ around start diggin’ under de cow before the Moorends…..
RACookPE (23:27:47) :
“Alright – Alright.
Now I’m lookin’ at the map from the south here, and the only thing between Lancaster and Yorkshire is Cowthorpe Plompton on an Oxton, a Cattail, and a Biggen Wighill.
And iffen you guys can’t squeeze a carbon credit from udderneath a ton of cowthrowpn’ onna Wighill, you need to stop complainin’ around start diggin’ under de cow before the Moorends……”
—
Nah. It’s symbolic.
RACookPE (23:27:47) :
Any road, them carbon offset sellers is just warzeling slamtrash.
And round ‘ere, credit is only given to folk over the age of 80 when accompanied by both parents.
Jack Simmons (13:37:47) :
tallbloke (10:03:21) :
A fool and his money are easily parted.
I understand everything except: where did the fool get the money in the first place?
Probably from you, Jack. And Tallbloke and me and everyone else on this blog. Once it had been taken from us by the taxman, of course.
It’s a P.T. Barnum moment.
Biggest scam since bottled water!
Either you folks have your tongues firmly planted in your cheeks, or your heads up your crack. The CCX per ton value has plummeted because there is no value in their carbon projects. The world market understands that it takes money to implement carbon reduction projects, so the international carbon market is trading at $12-15/metric ton of GHG-greenhouse gases. I work for a company that does scientific research on soil and ice samples and the climate is changing! You can ignore it or make a voluntary effort to reduce emissions and stretch out the reality of a warming planet. And if you think I’m full of BS, then think about not having children… because they will get the crappy end of the stick while you laugh today.
wow a little slow aren’t we. Thats how things get done in this world, scare tactics. Your children won’t survive, scary, perfect for halloween.
Daddy please tell me a few other scary global warming stories…
every time you touch soil and ice samples it sure is changing, your changing it.