Research claim: dropping CO2 caused formation of Antarctic ice cap

Meanwhile today while CO2 is increasing, the Antarctic ice cap is also increasing.

Bill Illis writes about it:

Ice sheets formed in Antarctica about 35 million years ago when CO2 was about 1,200 ppm. Ice sheets also formed in Antarctica about 350 to 290 million years ago when CO2 was about 350 ppm. Ice sheets also formed in Antarctica about 450 to 430 million years ago when CO2 was about 4,500 ppm. The more common denominator is when continental drift places Antarctica at the south pole.

Animation from Exploratorium.edu - click for source

Below, Antarctica today.

Source: University of Illinois
Antarctic Icecap as of 9/13 Source: University of Illinois Polar Research Group

New data illuminates Antarctic ice cap formation

From a Bristol University Press release issued 13 September 2009

A paper published in Nature

New carbon dioxide data confirm that formation of the Antarctic ice-cap some 33.5 million years ago was due to declining carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

A team of scientists from Bristol, Cardiff and Texas A&M universities braved the lions and hyenas of a small East African village to extract microfossils from rocks which have revealed the level of CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere at the time of the formation of the ice-cap.

Geologists have long speculated that the formation of the Antarctic ice-cap was caused by a gradually diminishing natural greenhouse effect. The study’s findings, published in Nature online, confirm that atmospheric CO2 started to decline about 34 million years ago, during the period known to geologists as the Eocene – Oligocene climate transition, and that the ice sheet began to form about 33.5 million years ago when CO2 in the atmosphere reached a tipping point of around 760 parts per million (by volume).

The new findings will add to the debate around rising CO2 levels in the Earth’s atmosphere as the world’s attention turns to the UN Climate Conference in Copenhagen which opens later this year.

Dr Gavin Foster from the University of Bristol and a co-author on the paper said: “By using a rather unique set of samples from Tanzania and a new analytical technique that I developed, we have, for the first time, been able to reconstruct the concentration of CO2 across the Eocene-Oligocene boundary – the time period about 33.5 million years ago when ice sheets first started to grow on Eastern Antarctica. “

Professor Paul Pearson from Cardiff University’s School of Earth and Ocean Sciences, who led the mission to the remote East Africa village of Stakishari said: “About 34 million years ago the Earth experienced a mysterious cooling trend. Glaciers and small ice sheets developed in Antarctica, sea levels fell and temperate forests began to displace tropical-type vegetation in many areas.

“The period culminated in the rapid development of a continental-scale ice sheet on Antarctica, which has been there ever since. We therefore set out to establish whether there was a substantial decline in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels as the Antarctic ice sheet began to grow.”

Co-author Dr Bridget Wade from Texas A&M University Department of Geology and Geophysics added: “This was the biggest climate switch since the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

“Our study is the first to provide a direct link between the establishment of an ice sheet on Antarctica and atmospheric carbon dioxide levels and therefore confirms the relationship between carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere and global climate.”

The team mapped large expanses of bush and wilderness and pieced together the underlying local rock formations using occasional outcrops of rocks and stream beds. Eventually they discovered sediments of the right age near a traditional African village called Stakishari. By assembling a drilling rig and extracting hundreds of meters of samples from under the ground they were able to obtain exactly the piece of Earth’s history they had been searching for.

Further information:

The paper:Atmospheric carbon dioxide through the Eocene–Oligocene climate transition. Paul N. Pearson, Gavin L. Foster & Bridget S. Wade. Nature online, Sunday 13th September.

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Roger Knights
September 14, 2009 10:22 pm

“Has anyone put together a coherent history/framework of how this came about and just who benefits and to what end and extent? I’d appreciate a link or other pointer. Thanks.”
Mike A UK

There are six factors that I’ve posted about here, which I’ll repeat below: Ted Turner’s grant to the UN, the payments to the undeveloped countries, the template of ozone-depleting CFGs, faddism, a modernist bias, and “knowledge cartels.”
I think there are several other factors, most importantly that official Science has finally risen to a high enough social position that it has “gotten above itself” and succumbed to pride, putting too much belief in the supposedly self-correcting nature of its procedures (the scientific method and peer review) and the integrity and objectivity of its personnel, and ignoring the social and political aspect that goes into the formation of scientific consensuses.
1. The UN’s IPCC was set up to please Ted Turner, a warmist who donated a billion $ to the UN for general purposes, and who requested it. It was then staffed by fanatical warmists. The UN’s agenda is to repay their alarmist benefactor, and possibly to induce further donations.
2. Since warmism involves payments from the West to the undeveloped countries, a majority at the UN favors the warmists’ position. This likely has an influence on the “watermelon” activists in Greenpeace, etc.
3. The discovery that Freon was responsible for the widening ozone holes at the poles may have created a “template” for Hansen and other warmists. I remember following news reports about this hypothesis at the time. My recollection is that the subtlety and indirectness of the process, via various knock-on effects, was a mind-boggler and aroused skepticism at first. It took several years for opinion leaders to come around. I suspect Hansen feels the resistance he’s encountered is just a replay of the ozone-hole resistance.
4. Extracts from:
Flavor of the Month: Why Smart People Fall for Fads (2006)
By Joel Best (U. of California Press)
p. 4: In our society, most serious institutions—medicine, science, business, education, criminal justice, and so on—experience what we can call institutional fads.
p. 16: Consider three cases from the 1980s: [the author cites the widespread diagnosis of multiple personality disorder, quality circles, and cold fusion.]
p. 18: While the innovation is spreading, it is easy to believe, to dismiss the skeptics. … Their proponents often are respected figures in their professions, and their claims receive serious, deferential attention in the media.
p. 36: Often there are overtones of urgency—we must act now, we can’t afford to wait, because things will soon get worse and we’ll fall further behind. This is what many institutional fads offer—the promise of a sudden, wonder-working, paradigm-shifting, revolutionary, quantum-leap breakthrough.
pp. 82-83: Fads … can be fun. When people are aware that an innovation is spreading, they often feel excited. There is a widespread sense that being part of a big, important change has something thrilling, even joyful about it.
pp. 84-85: It is easy to find excitement in doing something different, if only because change breaks the boredom of routine. … There is pride in being a pioneer, one of the early adopters—the first kid on your block.
………
This enthusiasm may cause a rush toward wholesale adoption. …
……….
People also find comfort in being part of the in crowd, in joining with other adopters. To the degree that you admire the trend-setters, you will be pleased to join them. … You’re now an insider, a status that is part of the appeal of stylishness. The feeling that you have made the right choice is not just personal (“it’s the right choice for me”) but also social (“Others will see that I’ve made the right choice”).
Pp 88-89: Adopters often also feel a sense of superiority because they have opportunities to exercise power. Once an organization’s leaders have adopted some innovation, they may require their subordinates to get with the program—to attend training workshops, adopt the new lingo, and so on.
…………
[Summing up,] institutional fads spread because individuals within organizations experience boredom, hope, pride, status seeking, status anxiety, and other feelings, and then decide to adopt the novelty that promises to improve things and make them feel better. As a result, members bring their organizations onto the bandwagon …. Organizations experience two sorts of bandwagon pressures, both of which have their parallels among individuals: first, the knowledge that other organizations have adopted a novelty pulls us to think we ought to do the same; second, worries that our competitors may be taking advantage of the innovation to get the jump on us pushes us to act.
pp. 90-92: In addition, they [people] may calculate that adoption [of a novelty] offers advantages to them personally. Consider the plight of Professor Alice, this chapter’s imaginary figure; she has just received her Ph.D. … [but] she will not receive tenure and promotion to associate professor unless she publishes some articles in scholarly journals.
…………..
Scholarly journals won’t publish anything that doesn’t say something new … . But there are already bookcases full of studies of Shakespeare and Jane Austen. What’s left for Professor Alice to write about?
…………
Professor Alice has seen an article in a newsmagazine about physicists studying something called “chaos theory.” The name sounds promising. Professor Alice hasn’t taken physics since high school, but she already has ideas for a title—something along the lines of “Kingdoms in Chaos: The Physics of Royal Courts in Shakespeare’s Tragedies.” Professor Alice’s tenure is virtually assured.
Individuals often find advantages in hooking their wagons to some rising enthusiasm. … Becoming associated with a trendy novelty suggests to others that you are with it, on top of things, in the know, progressive, forward-looking—and all of those other chichés that assign approval to pioneers of novelty. Often, there are intimations of generational rivalries: those advocating changes are young lions, willing to stand up against the old guard. Institutional fads offer a rationale for turning the reins over to a new generation that is not mired in the past, one that welcomes the future.
pp. 94-95: Professor Alice … illustrate[s] the importance of careerism—making choices that will advance one’s career—in the spread of such fads.
…………
Whenever an organization adopts an innovation,, there is the possibility that parts of the organization will change. Maybe new jobs, such as director of appraisal planning, will appear. … The organization will be—at least to some degree—in flux, which will almost certainly create opportunities. … And, of course, if a novelty comes endorsed by your supervisors … actively resisting the change may put your career at risk. It can be much easier to go along with the changes.
p. 113: We can think of diffusion—the enduring spread of some novelty—as taking two forms. One form involves the choices of many individuals …. The other form of diffusion involves the establishment of institutional arrangements that make it harder to drop the innovation.
p. 127: People … are much less inclined to publicize their decision to abandon a fad. There are too many embarrassing interpretations. Did they make an unwise choice? Didn’t they know what they were doing? Were they sufficiently prudent, or did they rush into something they didn’t understand?
p. 19: These fads aren’t free. Just as “fashion victims” waste their money on unattractive clothing styles, there are fad victims. … Alternative uses for these resources fall by the wayside. … Alienation and cynicism can result.

5. A modernist bias: a desire by opinion leaders to seem modern and accepting of sophisticated arguments, instead of trusting in the untutored, non-expert, common sense view that climate is always changing. A desire to be on the side of the modern science of ecology and concern for the earth.
6. Knowledge cartels:
Science in the 21st Century: Knowledge Monopolies and Research Cartels
By HENRY H. BAUER
Professor Emeritus of Chemistry & Science Studies
Dean Emeritus of Arts & Sciences
Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University
Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 18, No. 4, pp. 643–660, 2004
http://henryhbauer.homestead.com/21stCenturyScience.pdf
………….
Supposedly authoritative information about the most salient science-related matters has become dangerously misleading because of the power of bureaucracies that co-opt or control science.
Science as an Institution
Dysfunction and obsolescence begin to set in, unobtrusively but insidiously, from the very moment that an institution achieves pre-eminence. The leading illustration of this Parkinson’s Law (Parkinson, 1958) was the (British) Royal Navy. Having come to rule the seas, the Navy slowly succumbed to bureaucratic bloat. The ratio of administrators to operators rose inexorably, and the Navy’s purpose, defense of the realm, became subordinate to the bureaucracy’s aim of serving itself. The changes came so gradually that it was decades before their effect became obvious.
Science attained hegemony in Western culture toward the end of the 19th century (Barzun, 2000: 606–607; Knight, 1986). This very success immediately sowed seeds of dysfunction: it spawned scientism, the delusive belief that science and only science could find proper answers to any and all questions that human beings might ponder. Other dysfunctions arrived later: funding through bureaucracies, commercialization, conflicts of interest. But the changes came so gradually that it was the latter stages of the 20th century before it became undeniable that things had gone seriously amiss.
It remains to be appreciated that 21st-century science is a different kind of thing than the ‘‘modern science’’ of the 17th through 20th centuries; there has been a ‘‘radical, irreversible, structural’’ ‘‘world-wide transformation in the way that science is organized and performed’’ (Ziman, 1994). Around 1950, Derek Price (1963/1986) discovered that modern science had grown exponentially, and he predicted that the character of science would change during the latter part of the 20th century as further such growth became impossible. One aspect of that change is that the scientific ethos no longer corresponds to the traditional ‘‘Mertonian’’ norms of disinterested skepticism and public sharing; it has become subordinate to corporate values. Mertonian norms made science reliable; the new ones described by Ziman (1994) do not.
Symptoms
One symptom of change, identifiable perhaps only in hindsight, was science’s failure, from about the middle of the 20th century on, to satisfy public curiosity about mysterious phenomena that arouse wide interest: psychic phenomena, UFOs, Loch Ness Monsters, Bigfoot. By contrast, a century earlier, prominent scientists had not hesitated to look into such mysteries as mediumship, which had aroused great public interest.
My claim here is not that UFOs or mediumship are phenomena whose substance belongs in the corpus of science; I am merely suggesting that when the public wants to know ‘‘What’s going on when people report UFOs?’’, the public deserves an informed response. It used to be taken for granted that the purpose of science was to seek the truth about all aspects of the natural world. That traditional purpose had been served by the Mertonian norms: Science disinterestedly and with appropriate skepticism coupled with originality seeks universally valid knowledge as a public good.
These norms imply that science is done by independent, self-motivated individuals. However, from about the middle of the 20th century and in certain situations, some mainstream organizations of science were behaving not as voluntary associations of independent individuals but as bureaucracies. Popular dissatisfaction with some of the consequences stimulated ‘‘New Age’’ movements. ….
A more widely noticed symptom was the marked increase in fraud and cheating by scientists. In 1981, the U. S. Congress held hearings prompted by public disclosure of scientific misconduct at 4 prominent research institutions. Then, science journalists Broad and Wade (1982) published their sweeping indictment, Betrayers of the Truth: Fraud and Deceit in the Halls of Science. It has become almost routine to read in the NIH Guide of researchers who admitted to fraud and were then barred from certain activities for some specified number of years. In 1989, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) established an Office of Scientific Integrity. So prevalent was dishonesty that the new academic specialty of ‘‘research ethics’’ came into being. Professional scientific organizations drafted or revised codes of ethics. Various groups, including government agencies, attempted to make prescriptive for researchers what had traditionally been taken for granted, namely, something like the Mertonian norms.
This epidemic of cheating in the latter part of the 20th century meant, clearly enough, that an increasing number of scientists were seeking to serve their personal interests instead of the public good of universal knowledge.
………………………..
Throughout the history of modern science, the chief safeguard of reliability was communal critiquing (Ziman, 2000). Science begins as hunches. Those that work out become pieces of frontier science. If competent peers think it worthy of attention, an item gets published in the primary research literature. If other researchers find it useful and accurate, eventually the knowledge gets into review articles and monographs and finally into textbooks. The history of science demonstrates that, sooner or later, most frontier science turns out to need modifying or to have been misleading or even entirely wrong. Science employs a knowledge filter that slowly separates the wheat from the chaff (Bauer, 1992: chapter 3; see Figure 1).
This filter works in proportion to the honesty and disinterestedness of peer reviewers and researchers. In the early days of modern science, before knowledge became highly specialized and compartmentalized, knowledge-seekers could effectively critique one another’s claims across the board. Later and for a time, there were enough people working independently on a given topic that competent, disinterested critiques could often be obtained. Since about the middle of the 20th century, however, the costs of research and the need for teams of cooperating specialists have made it increasingly difficult to find reviewers who are both directly knowledgeable and also disinterested; truly informed people are effectively either colleagues or competitors. Correspondingly, reports from the big science bureaucracies do not have the benefit of independent review before being issued.
…………………..
Causes
Price (1963/1986) saw the exploding costs of research after WWII as a likely mechanism for bringing to an end the era of exponentially growing science. The mentioned symptoms may indeed be traced to the escalating costs of research and the continuing expansion of the number of would-be researchers without a proportionate increase in available funds. The stakes became very high. Researchers had to compete more and more vigorously, which tended to mean more unscrupulously. The temptation became greater to accept and solicit funds and patrons while ignoring tangible or moral attached strings.
……………..
Unrealistic expectations coupled with misunderstanding of how science works led to the unstated presumption that good science could be expanded and accelerated by recruiting more scientists. Instead, of course, the massive infusion of government funds since WWII had inevitably deleterious consequences. More researchers translate into less excellence and more mediocrity. Journeymen peer-reviewers tend to stifle rather than encourage creativity and genuine innovation. Centralized funding and centralized decision-making make science more bureaucratic and less an activity of independent, self-motivated truth-seekers. Science attracts careerists instead of curiosity-driven idealists. Universities and individuals are encouraged to view scientific research as a cash cow to bring in money as ‘‘indirect costs’’ for all sorts of purposes, instead of seeking needed funds for doing good science. The measure of scientific achievement becomes the amount of ‘‘research support’’ brought in, not the production of useful knowledge.
………………….
Knowledge Monopolies and Research Cartels
Skepticism toward research claims is absolutely necessary to safeguard reliability. In corporate settings, where results are expected to meet corporate goals, criticism may be brushed off as disloyalty, and skepticism is thereby suppressed. As Ziman (1994) pointed out, the Mertonian norms of ‘‘academic’’ science have been replaced by norms suited to a proprietary, patent- and profit-seeking environment in which researchers feel answerable not to a universally valid standard of trustworthy knowledge but to local managers. A similar effect, the suppression of skepticism, results from the funding of science and the dissemination of results by or through non-profit bureaucracies such as the NIH or agencies of the United Nations.
While the changes in the circumstances of scientific activity were quite gradual for 2 or 3 centuries, they have now cumulated into a change in kind. Corporate science, Big Science, is a different kind of thing than academic science, and society needs to deal with it differently. Large institutional bureaucracies now dominate the public face of science. Long-standing patrons—private foundations like Rockefeller and Ford, charitable organizations like the American Heart Association and the American Cancer Society—have been joined and dwarfed by government bureaucracies like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the NIH, and the National Science Foundation, which, in turn, are being overshadowed by international bodies like the World Bank and various agencies of the United Nations—the World Health Organization, the Food and Agricultural Organization, UNAIDS, and more. Statements, press releases, and formal reports from these bodies often purport to convey scientific information, but in reality these releases are best viewed as propaganda designed to serve the corporate interests of the bureaucracies that issue them.
…………………….
The upshot is that policy makers and the public generally do not realize that there is doubt about, indeed evidence against, some theories almost universally viewed as true, about issues of enormous public import: global warming; healthy diet, heart-disease risk-factors, and appropriate medication; HIV/AIDS; gene therapy; stem cells; and more.
‘‘Everyone knows’’ that promiscuous burning of fossil fuels is warming up global climates. Everyone does not know that competent experts dispute this and that official predictions are based on tentative data fed into computer models whose validity could be known only many decades hence (Crichton, 2003).
……………………….
What ‘‘everyone knows’’ about the science related to major public issues, then, often fails to reflect the actual state of scientific knowledge. In effect, there exist knowledge monopolies composed of international and national bureaucracies. Since those same organizations play a large role in the funding of research as well as in the promulgation of findings, these monopolies are at the same time research cartels. Minority views are not published in widely read periodicals, and unorthodox work is not supported by the main funding organizations. Instead of disinterested peer review, mainstream insiders insist on their point of view in order to perpetuate their prestige and privileged positions. That is the case even on so academic a matter as the Big-Bang theory of the universe’s origin.
……………………….
It is not that knowledge monopolies are able to exercise absolute censorship. Contrary views are expressed, but one must know where to look for them; so one must already have some reason to make the effort. That constitutes a vicious circle. Moreover, the contrarian view will often seem a priori unreliable or politically partisan, as already noted. Altogether, people exposed chiefly to mainstream media will likely never suspect—will have no reason to suspect—that there could exist a credible case different from the officially accepted one.
The conventional wisdom about these matters is continually reinforced by publicly broadcast snippets that underscore the official dogma. What other reason might there be to publicize, for example, the guesstimate that global warming will cause an increase in asthma attacks (Daily Telegraph, 2004)? This is just another ‘‘fact’’ to convince us that we must curb the use of coal, gas, and oil.
…………………………..
Reform?
The ills of contemporary science—commercialization, fraud, untrustworthy public information—are plausibly symptoms of the crisis, foreseen by Derek Price (1963/1986), as the era of exponentially growing modern science comes to an end. Science in the 21st century will be a different animal from the so-called ‘‘modern science’’ of the 17th to 20th centuries. The question is not whether to reform the science we knew, but whether society can arrange the corporate, commercialized science of the future so that it can continue to expand the range of trustworthy knowledge. Ziman (1994: 276) points out that any research organization requires ‘‘generous measures’’ of
_ room for personal initiative and creativity;
_ time for ideas to grow to maturity;
_ openness to debate and criticism;
_ hospitality toward novelty;
_ respect for specialized expertise.
These describe a free intellectual market in which independent thinkers interact, and there may be a viable analogy with economic life. Economic free markets are supposed to be efficient and socially useful because the mutually competitive ventures of independent entrepreneurs are self-corrected by an ‘‘invisible hand’’ that regulates supply to demand; competition needs to be protected against monopolies that exploit rather than serve society. So, too, the scientific free market in which peer review acts as an invisible hand (Harnad, 2000) needs to be protected from knowledge monopolies and research cartels. Anti-trust actions are called for.
Where public funds are concerned, legislation might help. When government agencies support research or development ventures, they might be required to allocate, say, 10% of the total to competent people of past achievement who hold contrarian views.
………………….
It should also be legislated that scientific advisory panels and grant-reviewing arrangements include representatives of views that differ from the mainstream.
……………………….
Where legislation is being considered about public policy that involves scientific issues, a Science Court might be established to arbitrate between mainstream and variant views, something discussed in the 1960s but never acted upon.
Ombudsman offices might be established by journals, consortia of journals, private foundations, and government agencies to investigate charges of misleading claims, unwarranted publication, unsound interpretation, and the like. The existence of such offices could also provide assistance and protection for whistle-blowers.
Sorely needed is vigorously investigative science journalism, so that propaganda from the knowledge bureaucracies is not automatically passed on. To make this possible, the media need to know about and have access to the whole spectrum of scientific opinion on the given issue. The suggestions made above would all provide a measure of help along that line. A constant dilemma for reporters is that they need access to sources, and if they publish material that casts doubt on the official view, they risk losing access to official sources.

KimW
September 14, 2009 10:32 pm

Quote “Can any geologists out there confirm that “geologists have long speculated that the formation of the Antarctic ice-cap was caused by a gradually diminishing natural greenhouse effect”.
There sure has been no such speculation, and I did my first geology degree in the 60’s. The article is sheer idiocy, not even a first year geology student would write that – not if he hoped to get a passing grade. Asfor the drilling in this “special place” – already noted above that there are many outcrops of the boundary exposed all over the world – why drill?.
Quote. “Who the heck wants to run seismic surveys in 70 below or worse.”
Plenty, and I mean plenty of geologists who would scramble over each other for the Antarctic Studies programmes run each Summer. I personally supervised one explosives training course run specifically to qualify a technician for a 1973 seismic survey in Antarctica. Full disclosure – I did not make the cut to get to Antarctica.

Neil Jones
September 14, 2009 10:43 pm

Just a wild shot from an under-educated psychologist, but could the formation of the ice sheet be the cause of the reduction in atmospheric CO2 and not the other way round?

John Edmondson
September 14, 2009 11:39 pm

This is hard to prove. At 750ppm , you need a big change in CO2 level to move the temp much:
http://brneurosci.org/co2.html
The graph is pretty flat at 750 ppm CO2.

Cassandra King
September 14, 2009 11:42 pm

The stages of a scientific theory/consensus has a defined and well known life cycle, looking back at previous deeply held scientific certainties gives a clear map of the different stages of the life cycle.
Birth is dificult for any new theory, it has to fight against the old set view, many dont make it past birth, those that do have to fight and muscle aside the old tottering consensus and the struggle is long and hard, but for those that succeed the fight to become the next consensus means widespread recognition which brings a solidification which then is pushed aside to make way for yet another fresh consensus.
The end stage of any entrenched consensus is the ever more complicated and convoluted explanations for the contradictions that appear like stress cracks in stone, the liberal application of plaster hides the cracks for a short time but the underlying faults grow untill the construction collapses.
Our AGW/MMCC/AAM theory is now at the stage of the liberal application of plaster to hide the cracks, yet aready the signs of collapse are apparent.
There is nothing new under the sun is there? The petty mistakes we make, the petty prejudices we hold, the false views we cling to and the means which we cling to our comfort zones, its all happened before many times, the tragedy is we seem unable to learn and so we repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

tty
September 14, 2009 11:59 pm

grandpa boris (17:11:04) :
“what will be exposed is not usable land, but the base rock scoured clean. It will take tens of thousands of years for that rock to become fertile soil. ”
I recommend you to visit e. g. the Canadian prairies, the Upper Midwest, New England, Ireland, Northern England, Northern Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Northern Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania
Do those areas look like “base rock scoured clean”? They were all covered by ice 10-15,000 years ago. For your information vegetation colonize de-glaciated areas extremely quickly.
The deglaciated soils are very rich in minerals and much of the Worlds premier farmland is in such areas (the rest are mostly on loess soils, which are windblown glacial dust). It would be impossible to feed 6 billion people in a World that had not recently been through a glacial period.

tallbloke
September 15, 2009 12:00 am

This ‘Nature’ article is just so much rubbish.
What a propaganda rag ‘Nature’ has become.
I’m cancelling my subscription forthwith.

September 15, 2009 12:30 am

Scott Mandia said
Smokey (15:44:54) :
” The greenhouse effect from natural greenhouse gas concentrations prior to the Industrial Revolution has kept the Earth’s surface about 33 degrees C warmer… Pre-Industrial Revolution CO2 levels ranged between 190 ppm and 300 ppm. Today they are rapidly approaching 400 ppm. Because levels of carbon dioxide are well above natural levels, it should not be hard to see how these increases could cause temperatures to rise at least a few degrees C in the future. The 0.7 degree C warming since 1880 has already caused many problems, especially to ecosystems. A 2 degree warming would be quite catastrophic in many ways…”
Scott, I much enjoy your contributions here as I do Joel Shore’s.
There has been much debate about this co2 level on other threads over the last few days, so my apologies to anyone who has read my similar comments elsewhere.
Firstly, the .7C warming since 1880 is reliant on James Hansens calculations which commence from a period immediately following the end of the LIA. This gives us the unsurprising news that temperatures have risen since the end of the LIA. You will have read Hansens paper and know the paucity of data points and the unreliabilty of many of them back to 1880, as observed by G S Callendar when he was looking at the same information prior to his thesis on co2 back in 1938.
Lets not even get into a debate on the value of a Global temperature in the first place 🙂
Of course, if the data line could be extrapolated back to the Roman optimum the current temperatures could be seen in their proper context as being nothing out of the ordinary.
However, my main point is to challenge the assumption that the ice cores are right and the pre 1957 co2 measurements are wrong.
Charles Keeling was a complete amateur at climate science when he formulated his readings in 1957, yet we blithely overturn and ignore the some 130 years of increasingly accurate co2 measurements prior to that date, many made by famous scientists, starting with Saussure in 1830.
Keeling had been greatly influenced by G S Callendar and his theory, and as a novice acepted at the time that the start point of 280ppm was correct. However, in later life he acknowedged that the old readings were more accurate than he had at first believed. (incidentally GS Callendar backpedalled on his beliefs late in life)
The following link from WUWT is worth reading for its own sake ( the comment from ‘Tony Edwards’; is particularly good) it links to a talk by Keeling in 1993, reproduced in small part here (the full link is at the bottom of Mr Edwards post). There is also reference elsewhere in the blog to a Victorian book in which CO2 measurements were recorded. (also below) They knew about the means to take measurements and specifically referred to such things as avoiding gas flames or lack of mixing.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/25/beck-on-co2-oceans-are-the-dominant-co2-store/
From Charles Keeling;
“In 1804, Theodore de Saussure showed that water was also an essential chemical in photosynthesis, combining with carbon to make actual living matter. He also demonstrated more clearly than Ingen-Housz that the carbon involved in plant growth came from the air. Curious about the carbon dioxide in the air, he made the first detailed measurements of its concentration there, measuring it near Geneva, Switzerland, under different wind conditions, different hours of the day and different months of the year. The mean value that he found was roughly 0.04% by volume,which I will put in modern units as 400 parts per million by volume (ppmv). This value was much less than von Humboldt had found, but still in considerable error.
De Saussure’s Memories, published in 1830, nevertheless ushered in a period of increasingly precise measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide culminating in some nearly correct measurements in the 1880s by a Belgian named Jules Reiset.”
Saussure used accurate equipment, correct methodology, was aware of the need for mixing and the effects of time, height and location, so why does Keeling illogically conclude that the measurements he took were inaccurate?
The answer is probably that by 1993 Keeling had invested a lot of time and effort at the Scripps institute and it is very difficult to recant a lifetimes belief. His autoibiography is interesting as the influences in his early life can be seen and his increasing respect for the pioneers in co2 measurement can also be followed.
You will be fully aware of Becks work in highlighting pre 1957 measurements.
tonyb

Sandy
September 15, 2009 12:50 am

” It would be impossible to feed 6 billion people in a World that had not recently been through a glacial period.”
At current levels of CO2.
If we are coming out of a glacial period the ocean will release CO2 back up to normal 1000 – 2000 ppm and the biosphere will rejoice. Feeding billions won’t be a problem with more CO2 in the air.

Imran
September 15, 2009 1:04 am

What if the ice sheets formed due to the fact that the earth began to cool – maybe due the to the fact that Antarctica drifted over the pole ??
And the CO2 dropped becasue the earth got colder. Exactly as might be preidcted by Al Gores famous graph.
The perversion of causation and correlation s sickening …..

Tom P
September 15, 2009 1:07 am

Smokey,
You now claim:
“Global warming over all is non-existent. Data confirms that the planet is cooling. Deal with it.”
But a few days ago you stated:
“Keep in mind that skeptics aren’t saying there is no global warming; that’s only how the alarmist crowd tries to frame the argument.”
At that time you also laid down the challenge:
“I’d be willing to bet that within the next ten years we will never reach the UN/IPCC’s AR-4 projections. But Tom won’t take that bet, because he can’t stack the deck.”
I’ve taken the bet (see above), and you have been studiously ignoring it.
What your arguments lack in consistency, they make up for in vehemence.

UK Sceptic
September 15, 2009 1:07 am

So there you have it folks. CO2 causes both thermageddon and freezergeddon. And for our next trick we are going to disappear an entire polar bear population up the IPCC’s (fill in the blank).

N Ash
September 15, 2009 1:16 am

In addition to the meteor that created the Chesapeake Bay around 35 million years ago, there was also both another meteor and a notable amount of volcanism around 30 million years ago in Europe and Yemen / Africa, respectively
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090107085320.htm
All of this, in addition to Antarctica separating from Gondwana around the same time (and thus being isolated from the rest of the globe by circumpolar ocean currents), suggests several possible reasons for cooling during the period of 30 to 35 million years ago. Cooling, as I recall, has been known to encourage the oceans to soak up more CO2 – which is possibly the reason for the 800 year lag between temperatures falling and then CO2 falling.
So, what they have really confirmed is that CO2 fell around the same time as the temperatures fell – something we would already suspect if not expect due to the falling temperatures of the time. That such occurred around the same time period (geologically speaking) does not support causation. And in fact there are so many potential causes with greater likelihood of causation (volcanism, a couple meteor impacts, breakup of a supercontinent, etc) that one can only wonder how they made the mistake of presuming a fall in CO2 is a cause rather than an associated effect.

Tom P
September 15, 2009 1:34 am

TonyB
“Firstly, the .7C warming since 1880 is reliant on James Hansens calculations which commence from a period immediately following the end of the LIA.”
No it isn’t. There are plenty of datasets to look at here. For example both the instrument record and the glacier-derived temperature profile:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1994/glaciervsinstrumental.png
“[W]e blithely overturn and ignore the some 130 years of increasingly accurate co2 measurements prior to that date.”
Though accurate, these records are extremely local measurements with little mixing. For instance “From the Haymarket Theatre, dress circle at 11.30 pm.” At the time there were never intended to be globally representative.
But rather than ignore these measurements, I’d say they establish a floor for the global measurements, and are indeed consistent with both ice-core and later infrared determinations:
http://www.biokurs.de/treibhaus/180CO2/bayreuth/bayreuth1e.htm

September 15, 2009 2:03 am

Geologists have long speculated that the formation of the Antarctic ice-cap was caused by a gradually diminishing natural greenhouse effect.
I always thought the reason was slow down in Sun activity – ins´t CO2 just accompanying temperature variations, as its solubility changes with temperature in the oceans? These scientists must have nightmares about the “greenhouse effect”.

Ian B
September 15, 2009 2:57 am

Well, this geologist (somewhat younger, BSc in 1993, PhD in 1999) was never told that CO2 was an important driver in the development of the Antarctic ice sheet. Indeed, the only work I ever did that related CO2 to possible climate impacts related to the mid-Cretaceous and the development of plateau basalts from super-plumes, and even that was speculative.
The Antarctic got cold primarily because it became isolated by the circum-polar current. This was coincident with several interesting plate tectonic events, most especially the growth of the Himalayan range as India collided with Asia. This had two interesting effects – 1) Direct take up of CO2 as the newly exposed granitic rocks weathered and 2) Increased nutrient content of the adjacent oceans, leading to increased biological productivity and hecne CO2 draw-down

September 15, 2009 3:13 am

MartinGAtkins (21:41:11) :
Already caused many problems? Like what?
Extinctions, coral reef destruction, ocean acidification detriments, migration problems, bark beetle tree destruction, etc. etc. etc.
Ask any biologist or other scientists that observes nature and you will see why a rapidly changing climate is not beneficial (in total) to ecosystems.
See: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_ipcc_fourth_assessment_report_wg2_report_impacts_adaptation_and_vulnerability.htm
Yet choose to ignore it
I do? Where? I understand the argument quite well but it is being used to imply that the increases in CO2 already and those that are in the pipeline will have minimal effects. To state that means one is ignoring the concept. And is there really a saturation point anyway? No.
See: http://geodoc.uchicago.edu/models.html
Then mess around with Modtran.
Here are some links that might help to explain the concept:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=231437
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/06/a-saturated-gassy-argument/
TonyB (00:30:53) :
I will definitely look into this because enquiring minds want to know. Wow, I need to take a sabbatical to keep up with the posts and comments here. 🙂

September 15, 2009 3:53 am

Scott Mandia (19:54:42) :
As mentioned previously, the natural greenhouse effect (from gas concentrations before the Industrial Revolution) has kept the Earth’s surface about 33 degrees C warmer than with an atmosphere with no greenhouse gases.

33K number is wrong and the whole GHE concept is probably wrong as well.
33K is calculated as a difference between Earth without ATMOSPHERE (including “GH” gases) and present temperature. But the calculation of hypothetical -18C temperature is done with Earth albedo 0.3 – which is made mostly by clouds – which should NOT be present on Earth without GHG/atmosphere. So with cloud-free Earth with albedo of 0.1 albedo the difference is some -15K.
Second, nobody explained how much of those +13K (or +33K) is made by atmosphere itself, which works as a truly heating blanket, keeping the absorbed heat from the daytime during the night. As Wood experiment documented 100 years ago, all reflected (or backradiated) IR has no significant effect on the system temperature, and in his experiment, 100% of IR had been back-radiated by glass, not only chip here and there of not occupied wavelength, as occurs in real atmosphere.
http://neighbors.denverpost.com/blog.php/2009/02/04/greenhouse-theory-disproved-a-century-ago/

Vincent
September 15, 2009 4:34 am

CO2 levels began falling in the Cretaceous, and apart from an upward blip during the Paleocene-eocene, continued to fall until the Pleistocene.
During this time, the continent of Antartica drifted towards the South pole. At sometime around 33 mya, it severed it’s connecton from South America, and about this time glaciation began to occur.
It was also at this time, please note, that according to this paper, CO2 levels dropped below 760ppm. Now, rather than looking to the severing of the Antarctic continent as being the most likely cause of this cooling, we are asked to believe that the cause lies in the CO2 level. We are told that there must have been a tipping point so that below 760 ppm glaciation occurs, and above 760 ppm it does not.
If there is any evidence that CO2 has this effect it is contradicted in other geological records. Why, in the late Ordovician, despite CO2 levels of 5000 ppm, the world entered an ice age. Does it not appear more probable that CO2 is simply doing what gases do – it is following Henry’s solubility law. Or is that not the conclusion the warmist wish to draw?

Vincent
September 15, 2009 4:55 am

Scott Mandia,
“There is a common misconception that the concentration levels of carbon dioxide are so small that they could not possibly be causing global warming.”
This is a straw man argument: no serious skeptic is making this claim. On the contrary, most of the warming due to CO2 occurs at even lower concentrations -the first 20 ppm causes 1.5C warming, and thereafter the sensitivity drops off rapidly.
“Because levels of carbon dioxide are well above natural levels, it should not be hard to see how these increases could cause temperatures to rise at least a few degrees C in the future.”
What is the natural level of CO2? Is it the 200 ppm averaged during the Pleistocene? What about 280 ppm in the Holocene? Oh wait, a new research paper has shown that neolithic humans raised CO2 levels, so we can’t use that.
Never mind, lets ignore this tiny sliver of time we have come to know as the quarternary period. As we travel back in time the “natural level” (I do love that term, it sounds so healthy) rises to 2,000 ppm approx, during the Mesozoic era.
There is no reason to assume temperature will rise a few degrees as a result of our current CO2 levels. Radiation physics give a temperature sensitivity Tk to CO2x2 as approximately 1C. All the rest is made up from unproven assumptions about water vapour feedbacks – and that is not evidence.

Vincent
September 15, 2009 4:59 am

Joel Shore:
“If ice sheets across all of Antarctica were to completely melt then sea level rise would be something like 70 m, ”
Even Al Gore didn’t go that far. Great to hear the hysteria is alive and well.

P Wilson
September 15, 2009 5:42 am

To Scott Mandia
I guess we’re all thankful that at least someone on here is representing the AGW perspective. However, the properties of c02 are logarithmic regarding heat absorption. It is true that it is a heat intercepting gas. The problem arises that it is a very weak one and not enough of one to change the climate.
To put the logarithmic equation into layman’s terms. If there were 150ppm in the atmosphere it will absorb, in its spectroscopic wavelength band, a certain amount of heat, after which point its saturation window closes. Then it can’t absorb or intercept any more heat. In other words, 300, 600, and 800ppm will absorb the same amount of heat as 150ppm, and effectively this means that it cannot force a temperature change. There are one or two analogies. The first is that a painter using pale green paint to decorate his wall will not be able to use thrice the amount of the same colour in order to achieve a dark green.
To put it to an even closer analogy, a factor 10 sunblock doesn’t increase its effectiveness according to how much you put on, as a small amount of factor 60 will yield a greater effectiveness than any amount of factor 10. If c02 were sunblock, it would be at around factor 3.
Also, another of the properties of c02 works in the opposite direction as a logarithmic gas. Biomass, plants oceans, absorb it exponentially

Gary Pearse
September 15, 2009 5:51 am

Can you imagine traipsing all over Tanzania, mapping the geology, drilling holes… and NOT finding what you want when you’ve blown such a chunk of university research budget? It is egregious that they use the word “confirmed” on this issue. I believe in an earlier post I forecast that there would be a flurry of research papers before the warm-in in Copenhagen to bolster AGW and to deal with skeptic science.

realitycheck
September 15, 2009 6:33 am

As a geoscientist, I strongly agree with Bill Illis here.
I will also put another spanner in the works.
I will speculate that CO2 levels dropped AFTER global temperatures began tumbling at the Eocene-Oligocene boundary.
In this Nature study they found a correlation, but did not identify which is the cause and which is the effect (a common mistake made by Climate Scientists – Correlation Does Not Imply Causality). It was their biased preconvictions that extrapolated a correlation into the conclusion that CO2 was the cause. There is no way they can determine that from the type of data they studied.

Jeff Green
September 15, 2009 6:33 am

To Smokey,
My experience is that ideology ferrits out what you want to see. You have shopped very well for your proof that AGW is false.
Try some more things on for a more total picture.
2000’s will have .2 degree centigrade increase over the 1990’s
1990’s has .15 degree centigrade increase over the 1980’s
We have an acceleration of warming taking place on earth’s average temp.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=6502
There is an enormous amount of warming totally surrounding antartica. In your cherry picked life you should just pay attention to the blue area. A warming ocean surrounding the whole place suggests to me that AGW theory is proving itself true. That warming ocean will melt quite a bit of ice.
As James Hansen has correctly predicted back in 1988 the artic would be the first to start melting. The models of today are much better now.

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