The Guardian Appears Ready to Power Glasgow 100% From Wind (Part 2)

By Steven Goddard
In Wednesday’s Guardian, their lead environmental story made this bold claim about The Whitelee Wind Farm:
Europe’s largest onshore wind farm, which is already powerful enough to meet Glasgow’s electricity needs

There was no discussion in the article about how Glasgow would handle extended periods of cold and calm winds, such as was often seen this past winter.  

If the wind isn’t blowing, the turbines aren’t spinning and no electricity is being generated.  This tends to happen on the coldest days, when the electricity is needed the most.
The flaw in The Guardian’s logic is a failure to acknowledge that Glasgow needs a consistent power supply 24x7x365.  The fact that Whitelee has a lot of windy days and a high annual energy potential, does no good on the cold, calm days.  I’m going to try to help The Guardian out with their logic using a few analogies they should understand.
  1. On average, there is lots of ice in the Arctic during the year – but that doesn’t stop The Guardian from being concerned about the possibility of a few ice-free days.
  2. Penguin chicks may get plenty to eat most of the year, but during the times when they don’t, many of them starve to death.
  3. Getting a pay check nine months a year would not pay the bills for the other three.
  4. Having toilets available only five days a week would not be satisfactory to most people.
  5. Having only five days a week without being in an automobile crash would not be satisfactory to most people.
  6. The rainy season in Australia may produce floods, but that doesn’t stop animals from dying of dehydration during the dry season.
  7. Having your watch functional 90% of the time would not be adequate.
  8. The fact that a restaurant is not responsible for food poisoning on most nights, may not make you want to eat there.
  9. Being careful on the edge of the Grand Canyon 90% of the time may not be enough.
  10. Practicing safe sex 90% of the time is not recommended.
It would be disastrous for Glasgow if they did not have the ability to obtain 100% of their energy from conventional sources on any given day of the year, when the wind isn’t blowing.  If The Guardian is attempting to propose that Glasgow could cut off their supply of conventional electricity sources, they should just come out and say that.  The implication is both clear and incorrect.  “already powerful enough to meet Glasgow’s electricity needs”

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May 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Jeff Alberts (11:09:38) :
Not only can the Whitelee Wind Farm not power Glasgow on clam days, it can be expanded to also not power all the other cities of the world on clam days too.

Type . more . slooowly.
.
Steve Goddard (10:51:09) :
. . . energy from thermonuclear explosions might not be ideal for generating a safe, consistent supply of energy.

Marinaman (10:26:36) :
Wind farms take up very little actual space. You can easily farm around them. So the argument of how much space they take up is bogus.

P Walker (11:05:55) :
I could be mistaken , but aren’t wind turbines shut down during periods of excessive wind speeds ? It seems I read that somewhere .

And here’s why –

karl heuer
May 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Terri, you are wrong about the numbers, wind farms in West Texas have production capacities that exceed 40% of rated capacity.
“In Texas, the average capacity factor of wind farms
installed in 2004 through 2005 is 39 percent,”
“The West Texas wind
farms that generate power for the city of Austin’s
utility company, Austin Energy, have capacity factors
ranging from 35 percent to 40 percent.”
http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_wind-reserve.htm
“THE ENERGY REPORT • MAY 2008 Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts”
*** to access the .pdf click on Wind Energy Overview link under Additional Resources

Frank K.
May 22, 2009 2:12 pm

Slightly OT…
Speaking of costly energy-related boondoggles, I heard about this carbon dioxide sequestration project that’s going on RIGHT NOW in Ohio.
http://216.109.210.162/userdata/Fact%20Sheets/MRCSP_Greenville%20Fact%20Sheet%2008-04-08.pdf
So how would you like pressurized CO2 being pumped underground in your small town? Great huh? They say it will never leak and they can put the land back to normal once they’ve pumped it full!
Also, for your safety, it will be “compressed into a supercritical state (i.e., a dense, liquid-like form)”. For you thermodynamicists out there, check out the pressures involved in putting a gas like CO2 into the supercritical state…(hint it’s about 73 atmospheres or 1073 psi at 30 C). Better put that well cap on tight!
Remember now that our country is broke and that we are running massive deficits…guess who’s going to pay for these?? I’ll let the AGW folks like Flanagan calculate for us how much lower the earth’s temperature will be when we’ve pumped all of our CO2 into these wells…

John Wright
May 22, 2009 2:15 pm

Let them do it and soon. It’s better to have only one city as a guinea pig than the whole country.

Kum Dollison
May 22, 2009 2:16 pm

Wind turbines work mostly at night. Solar is good during the day. The Germans are working on biomass/biogas for buffering.
Honestly, some of you speak, reverently, of “decades” of fossil fuel availability as if it were Eons.

Peter Hearnden
May 22, 2009 2:26 pm

Steven Goddard “If you have spent any time on the west coast of Scotland, you know that it is normally windy there too” exactly!
Of course the wind doesn’t blow relentlessly. But normally it’s windy in these places. Now, given that, given also that no power source is 100% reliable and I think wind power needs to be part of the mix of generation in the UK.

Steven Goddard
May 22, 2009 2:26 pm

karl heuer,
I challenge you to find any location in Scotland which had significant wind during the week of Christmas – New Year.
http://www.wunderground.com/global/UK.html
0 kwh X 19 locations = 0 kwh

Steven Goddard
May 22, 2009 2:27 pm

Kum,
Good luck with solar energy in Glasgow during the winter.

henry
May 22, 2009 2:36 pm

“Also, for your safety, it will be “compressed into a supercritical state (i.e., a dense, liquid-like form)”. For you thermodynamicists out there, check out the pressures involved in putting a gas like CO2 into the supercritical state…(hint it’s about 73 atmospheres or 1073 psi at 30 C). Better put that well cap on tight!”
Too bad they can’t use that compressed gas in a closed-loop system to drive a turbine or two. Sequestered CO2 and energy from the storage, too.
Someone should run a model to see just how much of a hole there’d be if that tank ever blew.

Kum Dollison
May 22, 2009 2:42 pm

They have plenty of biomass, there, I believe.
Look, Steve, if this post is “all about” Wind in Glasgow, fine. There are, probably, better places for Wind Turbines.
Unfortunately, this blog is turning into a rabid, anti-alternatives, every where, all the time, day in, day out rant. I think that’s a mistake. I think poll after poll tell us that the “People” mostly think AGW is bunk, but “alternatives” to coal, and petroleum are something that are of interest to the everyday Joe.
You can’t just be “Agin” Everything. You’ve got to be For “Something.”
Otherwise, regular people just tune you out as a “Collection of Cranks.”

Igsy
May 22, 2009 2:43 pm

I like Bill Illis’ voluntary tax idea. The problem is that it has always been possible to pay voluntary taxes for (supposedly) better healthcare, education etc, but so far, no volunteers.
In trying to understand this phenomenon from the point of view of the reluctant volunteers, it is clear that making tax compulsory for all is more important to them that actually paying it.
This seems illogical on two counts. Firstly, if anyone pays more tax, then more is available to the government to spend on projects which the typical reluctant volunteer generally endorses (defence and nuclear power excepted). Secondly, we are constantly being told that it is important to set an example to China and India by reducing our carbon emissions. Why does not the same principle apply to voluntary taxes?
But even from the point of view of the class-warrior, compulsion can only be taken so far. A particularly thorny issue for those with authoritarian tendencies is their awareness of similar inclinations exhibited by their political polar-opposites. Best not to make one’s authoritarianism too obvious for fear of awkward comparisons.
I therefore suggest the following modification to Bill’s proposal: the masses should be forced by law to wear a brown feather if they do not pay the voluntary green tax – brown being the universally accepted colour of pollution. Naturally, those that do pay can wear a green feather if they so wish.
Unfortunately for my idea, it may not be possible in practice to constrain its consequences within reasonable bounds of civilised behaviour. It may, for example, become socially acceptable to spit on the brown-feather-wearers in the street, or slash the tyres of their SUVs/4x4s (which incidentally has just happened to a few dozen car owners in Manchester, England).
But for some, justice will be done, and Mother Earth will indulge a wry smile. After a good day’s posturing and brown-feather-wearer-bashing, green feather-wearers will be able to enjoy a few pints of organic real ale and relate to each other merry tales of retribution for the greater good. (The carbon dioxide resulting from the beer’s transportation and secondary fermentation can be ignored as any released through the actions of those pure in motive doesn’t contribute to climate change.)
The next few years will be tough.

Steve (Paris)
May 22, 2009 2:51 pm

As a Welshman born and bred I shuddered when I read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/22/wales-energy-efficient-plans
For those of you who don’t know the splendour of Wales, its rains in the morning, snows at noon, chills in the afternoon, then surprises us in the evening. Anything can happen at night. Or rather it does all of those things but in random order.
It’s call the Gulf Stream and its magical.
And I’m pining for home.

Steve Goddard
May 22, 2009 2:54 pm

Peter Hearnden,
You are correct. Some energy sources are only 99.99% reliable.

May 22, 2009 2:55 pm

I know I posted this a few days ago, but it was right at the end of the topic’s discussions, and many may not have seen it.
.
.
Renewable energy – our downfall?
The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.
So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.
Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.
However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.
The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.
This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when is life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.
But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.
Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.
Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ‘spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.
While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.
But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.
This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:
a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.
b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.
c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.
The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?
In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.
Nuclear
But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.
In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.
What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.
While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)
Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.
And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.
However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.
We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!
Ralph Ellis
June 2004
1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.
2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.

LarryD
May 22, 2009 2:59 pm

The EIA did a study of the subsidies that various forms of energy receive in the US. All figures are per mega Watt hour.
Natural Gas – $0.25
Coal – $0.44
Fission – $1.59
Wind – $23.37
Solar – $24.34

Britannic no-see-um
May 22, 2009 3:03 pm

The story of Glasgow is a tragedy. The demise of Britains second city is due to to chronic governmental incompetence stretching back for generations. It needs power and how, because it’s lifeblood is the politically incorrect heavy industry steam and shipbuilding, (Clydeside built meant world best once), and before that rum, tobacco and sugar trading. But the Ayrshire coalfield on its doorstep was politically sacrificed in the 70’s. There was a feeble attempt to plant the head office of the doomed national Britoil’s offices there, to resurrect the city centre, for a few years. Now its back to a city with high unemployment supported by benefits, waiting for a saviour. Its not windmills.

Pragmatic
May 22, 2009 3:10 pm

What arises more often now is the idea that energy independence requires a broad portfolio of new energy sources. The standard renewables should be engaged but they appear incapable of meeting growing baseload in most countries. So the mix needs to include newer ideas, indeed as (Steve?) points out, perhaps new physics. A reasonable proposition unless we think we’ve settled the physics of the known universe. But then there are perplexing problems like the sun’s corona, dark matter, and singularity effects.
However, there is new physics in the offing. We’ve got the Navy folks at SPAWAR doing LENR research:
http://tinyurl.com/pzfkes
And Randy Mills at Blacklight also producing excess heat:
http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC112108Web030509citupdS.pdf
And newer work concentrating on nanoscale capture of energy from vacuum. These are all new physics proposals and as such will meet a great deal of skepticism (a good thing.) But in light of the emerging need for growing baseload and resistance to conventional (coal and nuke) generation – it seems the time is right for new physics. And newer ideas of how to implement energy generation. For example supporting combined heat and power units (CHP) for residential energy needs. If the U.S. could offload residential energy demand to individual residential power units, it would reduce grid demand by fully one third.
The trick would appear to be how to bring these projects into mainstream R&D funding so the most promising can be put on a fast track. Obama’s Admin would do well to build a blue-ribbon panel to investigate these areas and report back within 12 months on which should receive a significant boost in funding.

Steve Goddard
May 22, 2009 3:10 pm

kum,
When you go to turn on the lights now, do you have a problem obtaining electricity?
“If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.”

Pragmatic
May 22, 2009 3:13 pm
Editor
May 22, 2009 3:14 pm

Your wife pledging to be faithful 90% of the time may not result in a happy marriage.
A sexual predator behaving themselves 99% of the time would still result in the same level of sexual crime.
A politician not taking bribes from special interests 99% of the time would result in no change in the amount of corruption.
A spacecraft capable of safely returning its crew to Earth 97% of the time would result in…. the Space Shuttle.

Steve (Paris)
May 22, 2009 3:28 pm

ralph ellis (14:55:46) :
Respecting the effort and energy you put into your post, the Victorian era was first and last about coal. We all of us should bow to King Coal and the miners who hewed it for us.
The Victorians may or may not have planned ahead but, in the wash, we will never now because their childred died in the most frightening numbers in the first world war.
Oil came into its own in the twenties and thirties as access acclerated spurred by invention and helped by the collapase of the Ottoman empire.
Go google if you don’t believe me.
“What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!”
Can I suppose you are volunteering for election?

Mark Bowlin
May 22, 2009 3:33 pm

Kum Dollison (14:42:39) : ” You can’t just be “Agin” Everything. You’ve got to be For “Something.”
Otherwise, regular people just tune you out as a “Collection of Cranks”
Actually, in America, you don’t have to be for anything. That’s what makes us special.
For what it’s worth, however, I’m for fossil fuels until viable alternatives can replace them without creating economic hardships for my countrymen and me — I’m for using every drop of oil, every lump of coal, every slab (?) of shale, and every vapor of natural gas under American soil until then.

Daniel M
May 22, 2009 3:38 pm

John Boy (12:47:46) :
Apparently, you are aware of ‘diabolical motives’ of GWers. They certainly have political and societal agendas because they could not create solutions to the danger they percieve as it necessarily entails challenging the existing Kings, oil and coal. (Yes, I know -no warming for the last ten years.)
What diabolical motives are you aware of?
I sure would like to know. Place them next to some of the diabolical things done in pursuit, exploitation, responsibility delay, evasion, obfusaction associated with oil .
Maybe, the intentions of ‘greeny/GW Alarmists’ are AS or perhaps even MORE diabolical than that has already been perpetrated.
Or maybe GWers are naive and misguided – having been misled by a 25 year old, worldwide conspiracy across nations/languages masterminded by scientists/activist with diabolical intentions – into believeing that CO2 is changing climate in a dangerous way. Perhaps.
“Diabolical” must be in the eye of the beholder.
It seems you readily acknowledge that doing something that may be bad now is OK because others have done bad things in the past. Kind of hackneyed, but haven’t you heard that two wrongs don’t make a right? You tip your hand that this AGW crusade is very much about socking it to the “evil” oil and coal companies and seem to care little about the ultimate sacrifices we all make to assure your “victory”.
You may call their actions “naive” or “misguided”. I believe they are intentionally exaggerating and falsifying circumstances to further an agenda that DOES NOT serve the general population. Nevertheless, intent will not lessen the blow. Much like the demonization of DDT, the banning of which has led to the needless deaths of MILLIONS globally, or the hamstringing of the nuclear energy industry, which ironically could have been providing us with a substantial and reliable carbon-free energy source that would largely render these arguments moot, the actions of environmental extremists is, at the very least, dangerously and willfully ignorant.

James P
May 22, 2009 3:38 pm

David Ball (10:58:46) :
I see proponents of AGW using the abbreviation WWUT.

Dyslexia seems a common complaint among warmists – probably why they feel at home at the Grauniad. One of the more persistent posters on George Monbiot’s thread constantly refers to this site as WATTSUPDOC, which might have been mildly amusing the first time he used it, but is now just laboured and gratuitous. In keeping with his comments, I suppose.

Frank K.
May 22, 2009 4:03 pm

henry (14:36:57) :
“Also, for your safety, it will be “compressed into a supercritical state (i.e., a dense, liquid-like form)”. For you thermodynamicists out there, check out the pressures involved in putting a gas like CO2 into the supercritical state…(hint it’s about 73 atmospheres or 1073 psi at 30 C). Better put that well cap on tight!”
Too bad they can’t use that compressed gas in a closed-loop system to drive a turbine or two. Sequestered CO2 and energy from the storage, too.

Two problems with the turbine idea. (1) you’d have to let the CO2 escape back to the atmosphere in order to extract work from a turbine (since it requires a lower pressure at the exhaust) and (2) it’s still an energy loser since it takes more energy to compress the CO2 that you would get back out of it (i.e. the second law of thermo).
Maybe they could sell the CO2 to Coca Cola or Pepsi – at least we’d be able to drink it before it escaped back into the atmosphere…

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