Lindzen on negative climate feedback

NEW 4/10/09: There is an update to this post, see below the “read the rest of this entry” – Anthony

Guest Post by Richard Lindzen, PhD.

Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Science, MIT

This essay is from an email list that I subscribe to. Dr. Lindzen has sent this along as an addendum to his address made at ICCC 2009 in New York City. I present it here for consideration. – Anthony

lindzen1Simplified Greenhouse Theory

The wavelength of visible light corresponds to the temperature of the sun’s surface (ca 6000oK). The wavelength of the heat radiation corresponds to the temperature of the earth’s atmosphere at the level from which the radiation is emitted (ca 255oK). When the earth is in equilibrium with the sun, the absorbed visible light is balanced by the emitted heat radiation.

The basic idea is that the atmosphere is roughly transparent to visible light, but, due to the presence of greenhouse substances like water vapor, clouds, and (to a much lesser extent) CO2 (which all absorb heat radiation, and hence inhibit the cooling emission), the earth is warmer than it would be in the absence of such gases.

The Perturbed Greenhouse

If one adds greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, one is adding to the ‘blanket’ that is inhibiting the emission of heat radiation (also commonly referred to as infrared radiation or long wave radiation). This causes the temperature of the earth to increase until equilibrium with the sun is reestablished.

For example, if one simply doubles the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, the temperature increase is about 1°C.

If, however, water vapor and clouds respond to the increase in temperature in such a manner as to further enhance the ‘blanketing,’ then we have what is called a positive feedback, and the temperature needed to reestablish equilibrium will be increased. In the climate GCMs (General Circulation Models) referred to by the IPCC (the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), this new temperature ranges from roughly 1.5°C to 5°C.

The equilibrium response to a doubling of CO2 (including the effects of feedbacks) is commonly referred to as the climate sensitivity.

Two Important Points

1. Equilibration takes time.

2. The feedbacks are responses to temperature – not to CO2 increases per se.

The time it takes depends primarily on the climate sensitivity, and the rapidity with which heat is transported down into the ocean. Both higher sensitivity and more rapid mixing lead to longer times. For the models referred to by the IPCC, this time is on the order of decades.

This all leads to a crucial observational test of feedbacks!

The Test: Preliminaries

Note that, in addition to any long term trends that may be present, temperature fluctuates on shorter time scales ranging from years to decades.

lindzen2

Such fluctuations are associated with the internal dynamics of the ocean- atmosphere system. Examples include the El Nino – Southern Oscillation, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, etc.

These fluctuations must excite the feedback mechanisms that we have just described.

The Test

1. Run the models with the observed sea surface temperatures as boundary conditions.

2. Use the models to calculate the heat radiation emitted to space.

3. Use satellites to measure the heat radiation actually emitted by the earth.

When temperature fluctuations lead to warmer temperatures, emitted heat radiation should increase, but positive feedbacks should inhibit these emissions by virtue of the enhanced ‘blanketing.’ Given the model climate sensitivities, this ‘blanketing’ should typically reduce the emissions by a factor of about 2 or 3 from what one would see in the absence of feedbacks. If the satellite data confirms the calculated emissions, then this would constitute solid evidence that the model feedbacks are correct.

The Results of an Inadvertent Test

lindzen31
From Wielicki, B.A., T. Wong, et al, 2002: Evidence for large decadal variability in the tropical mean radiative energy budget. Science, 295, 841-844.

Above graph:

Comparison of the observed broadband LW and SW flux anomalies for the tropics with climate model simulations using observed SST records. The models are not given volcanic aerosols, so the should not expected to show the Mt. Pinatubo eruption effects in mid-1991 through mid-1993. The dashed line shows the mean of all five models, and the gray band shows the total rnage of model anomalies (maximum to minimum).

It is the topmost panel for long wave (LW) emission that we want.

Let us examine the top figure a bit more closely.

lindzen4

From 1985 until 1989 the models and observations are more or less the same – they have, in fact, been tuned to be so. However, with the warming after 1989, the observations characteristically exceed 7 times the model values. Recall that if the observations were only 2-3 times what the models produce, it would correspond to no feedback. What we see is much more than this – implying strong negative feedback. Note that the ups and downs of both the observations and the model (forced by observed sea surface temperature) follow the ups and downs of temperature (not shown).

Note that these results were sufficiently surprising that they were confirmed by at least 4 other groups:

Chen, J., B.E. Carlson, and A.D. Del Genio, 2002: Evidence for strengthening of the tropical general circulation in the 1990s. Science, 295, 838-841.

Cess, R.D. and P.M. Udelhofen, 2003: Climate change during 1985–1999: Cloud interactions determined from satellite measurements. Geophys. Res. Ltrs., 30, No. 1, 1019, doi:10.1029/2002GL016128.

Hatzidimitriou, D., I. Vardavas, K. G. Pavlakis, N. Hatzianastassiou, C. Matsoukas, and E. Drakakis (2004) On the decadal increase in the tropical mean outgoing longwave radiation for the period 1984–2000. Atmos. Chem. Phys., 4, 1419–1425.

Clement, A.C. and B. Soden (2005) The sensitivity of the tropical-mean radiation budget. J. Clim., 18, 3189-3203.

The preceding authors did not dwell on the profound implications of these results – they had not intended a test of model feedbacks! Rather, they mostly emphasized that the differences had to arise from cloud behavior (a well acknowledged weakness of current models). However, as noted by Chou and Lindzen (2005, Comments on “Examination of the Decadal Tropical Mean ERBS Nonscanner Radiation Data for the Iris Hypothesis”, J. Climate, 18, 2123-2127), the results imply a strong negative feedback regardless of what one attributes this to.

The Bottom Line

The earth’s climate (in contrast to the climate in current climate GCMs) is dominated by a strong net negative feedback. Climate sensitivity is on the order of 0.3°C, and such warming as may arise from increasing greenhouse gases will be indistinguishable from the fluctuations in climate that occur naturally from processes internal to the climate system itself.

An aside on Feedbacks

Here is an easily appreciated example of positive and negative feedback. In your car, the gas and brake pedals act as negative feedbacks to reduce speed when you are going too fast and increase it when you are going too slow. If someone were to reverse the position of the pedals without informing you, then they would act as positive feedbacks: increasing your speed when you are going too fast, and slowing you down when you are going too slow.

gas-brake-pedals

Alarming climate predictions depend critically on the fact that models have large positive feedbacks. The crucial question is whether nature actually behaves this way? The answer, as we have just seen, is unambiguously no.

UPDATE: There are some suggestions (in comments) that the graph has issues of orbital decay affecting the nonscanner instrument’s field of view. I’ve sent a request off to Dr. Lindzen for clarification. – Anthony

UPDATE2: While I have not yet heard from Dr. Lindzen (it has only been 3 hours as of this writing) commenter “wmanny” found this below,  apparently written by Lindzen to address the issue:

“Recently, Wong et al (Wong, Wielicki et al, 2006, Reexamination of the Observed Decadal Variability of the Earth Radiation Budget Using Altitude-Corrected ERBE/ERBS Nonscanner WFOV Data, J. Clim., 19, 4028-4040) have reassessed their data to reduce the magnitude of the anomaly, but the remaining anomaly still represents a substantial negative feedback, and there is reason to question the new adjustments.”

I found the text above to match “wmanny’s” comment in a presentation given by Lindzen to Colgate University on 7/11/2008 which you can see here as a PDF:

http://portaldata.colgate.edu/imagegallerywww/3503/ImageGallery/LindzenLectureBeyondModels.pdf

– Anthony

UPDATE3: I received this email today  (4/10) from Dr. Lindzen. My sincere thanks for his response.

Dear Anthony,

The paper was sent out for comments, and the comments (even those from “realclimate”) are appreciated.  In fact, the reduction of the difference in OLR between the 80’s and 90’s due to orbital decay seems to me to be largely correct.  However, the reduction in Wong, Wielicki et al (2006) of the difference in the spikes of OLR between observations and models cannot be attributed to orbital decay, and seem to me to be questionable.  Nevertheless, the differences that remain still imply negative feedbacks.  We are proceeding to redo the analysis of satellite data in order to better understand what went into these analyses.  The matter of net differences between the 80’s and 90’s is an interesting question.  Given enough time, the radiative balance is reestablished and the anomalies can be wiped out.  The time it takes for this to happen depends on climate sensitivity with adjustments occurring more rapidly when sensitivity is less.  However, for the spikes, the time scales are short enough to preclude adjustment except for very low sensitivity.

That said, it has become standard in climate science that data in contradiction to alarmism is inevitably ‘corrected’ to bring it closer to alarming models.  None of us would argue that this data is perfect, and the corrections are often plausible.  What is implausible is that the ‘corrections’ should always bring the data closer to models.

Best wishes,

Dick


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Chris V.
April 1, 2009 11:46 am

Mark T (11:18:19) :
You need to take that up with the climate scientists!
Not coming from a control theory background, their usage makes perfect sense to me. When dealing with responses to forcings, I think it makes everything simpler and easier to understand.
But whether you like it or not, when you’re discussing climate, you should use the same terminology that the climate scientists use. To do otherwise just leads to confusion. That’s just the way it is!

Mark T
April 1, 2009 12:03 pm

Chris V. (11:46:22) :
But whether you like it or not, when you’re discussing climate, you should use the same terminology that the climate scientists use. To do otherwise just leads to confusion. That’s just the way it is!

No, actually, confusion is sewn by their usage. It does not make mathematical sense, and since they are using feedback in a mathematical manner, the proper usage needs to be understood.
Just because “it makes perfect sense” to you, does not in any way imply it makes physical or mathematical sense. You don’t need a control theory background to understand a simple difference equation, which is ultimately what feedback boils down to. There is a reason terminology exists, it is so people can communicate ideas freely. Once the climate realm corrupted the usage, they could easily claim, as you do, “you don’t understand our terminology.” A convenient blind to hide behind, IMO.
And, for the record, I don’t believe all climate scientists use things improperly. I think somewhere along the lines they boiled it down into terms “laymen,” or those without a control theory background, could understand, i.e., in terms that would “make perfect sense” to folks such as yourself. This was egregious since their usage did not make perfect sense, it was actually illogical. Both positive and negative feedback have gain, though it is frequency dependent, and neither is capable of “runaway” without a greater than unity feedback term, which is physically impossible without another source of power other than the input, which is typically assumed to be the sun (now, a constant radiative imbalance is different than this “runaway”).
In the interview for my first job, I asked “what causes runaway feedback in an op-amp,” and the interviewee’s response, without even a pause, was “new-grads.”
Mark

JamesG
April 1, 2009 12:40 pm

John Philip/Phil/Chris
Yes he does seem to have used an uncorrected dataset without mentioning it, which is disappointing. However we’ve all seen this “correction” story before and it always smells of confirmation bias (no, not a conspiracy Chris). That the authors of the paper are highly pro-agw means they’d be more than happy to homogenize the data just like Willis’s heat content data. But if the other 4 papers confirm the original data then that would excuse the use of the uncorrected data by Lindzen, especially given the purely speculative nature of Trenberth’s original comment and the as yet unknown error calibration technique. I guess we’d have to check those other papers, or hope that Prof. Lindzen clears it up.

Ian Schumacher
April 1, 2009 12:45 pm

Mark T (12:03:16) :
Why are you playing such a silly game of semantics. Chris V understanding is correct. Positive feedback means that an initial temperature change will be increased. Negative feedback means it will be decreased. The sign of the change doesn’t matter. If negative feedback dominated the climate system this would resist the climate going into an ice age (Chris V original contention, which is correct)
Y= X + AY
dY/dX = 1/(1-A)
Positive feedback, 0>AdX.
Negative feedback, 0>A>-1 then dY<dX.
Just what Chris V stated.
So if there is always negative feedback and the Sun output is constant (or has only small changes), how can an ice age ever occur? It can’t. At some point feedback HAS to be positive in order to cause an ice age. Negative feedback would prevent an ice-age.
You also state:
“and neither is capable of “runaway” without a greater than unity feedback term, which is physically impossible without another source of power other than the input”
Greater than unity feedback is not impossible … why do you think it is? It just means you will “run-away” until saturation occurs. I think that is what happens when we come out of a ice-age. There are 2 meta-stable states. The environment (Milankovitch orbital perturbations) changes which state is the equilibrium point.

bill
April 1, 2009 1:20 pm

a realistic assessment for the uk.
page 27 shows that some you win and some you loose.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/FARM/environment/climate-change/pdf/climate-ag.pdf
wheat could show a 10% reduction in yield and this is in a country where temperatures are currently temperate.
Its the currently warmer places where crops will suffer
Its statements that 2 deg warmer and high CO2 = more productive crops that I dislike. This is not a global better!

JamesG
April 1, 2009 2:06 pm

Runaway until saturation occurs possibly describes a hurricane too.

Manfred
April 1, 2009 2:44 pm

bill (13:20:22) :
“Its the currently warmer places where crops will suffer.”
photosysnthesis is improved by increased co2 – this is a no-brainer.
your statement, however, is in conflict with the currently greening sahara and also the predicted reduction of water scarcity, if warming would really happen.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/18/how-the-ipcc-portrayed-a-net-positive-impact-of-climate-change-as-a-negative/

April 1, 2009 3:08 pm

For example, if one simply doubles the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, the temperature increase is about 1°C. “Doubles” counted from what basis? The level of CO2 -10.000 year, from 1800? 1900? 1970?
And is this conclusion contrary to the an other statement: that the increase/decrease of the CO2 level follows the increase/decrease of the temperature level (with some delay)?

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 3:38 pm

Dick H. Ahles-Double any level, it leads to the same extra forcing (3.7 W/m2) which, given enough time, such a forcing leads to a certain amount of temperature change (the sensitivity) the lag has to do with outgassing, it is unrelated to the response, except that it makes it difficult to use paleoclimate to calculate sensitivity (which can’t be done for other reasons, which I have elucidated above).

jae
April 1, 2009 3:49 pm

Phil. (10:02:45) :
“Illuminate an grey surface with visible radiation and the temperature will reach an elevated steady state value.
Place a dichroic mirror (which transmits vis and reflects 50% of the IR) this will feedback IR to the surface and heat it up, the system will reach equilibrium when the IR passing through the mirror equals the input.
Therefore Input=100, IR from surface=200, IR from mirror to surface=100, IR though mirror=100.
That is positive feedback and stable.
Increase the feedback by replacing the dichroic with one which reflects 60% of the IR and the feedback increases to 150 so a new higher ss temperature will be reached, you’d only get runaway increase if the mirror reflected 100% of the IR.”
Nice thought experiment, but I would like to see some data from the actual experiment, since I don’t think it works that way.

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 4:16 pm

bill’s statements about agriculture are absurd. As can plainly be seen by looking at historical crop yields, the expectation of ever improving yields should hold up no matter the climate. The increases that any reasonable person would expect would so far out weigh climate impact as to seem ridiculous. Moreover, the increases will occur ~because~ of our use to resources to do important things-if we squander it on pointless mitigation steps, we don’t get the big increase in food, meaning we’re more vulnerable to climate change.

Bill Illis
April 1, 2009 4:19 pm

It is not hard to start off an ice age in our current climate.
The tilt of the Earth is slowly moving from its current 23.5 degrees to 22.4 degrees in about 9,800 years. 1.1 degrees is equivalent to about 110 kms.
So take the summer temperatures which are about 110 kms north of you now and that is what the summer temperatures will be where you are now in 9,800 years.
Now take Ellesmere Island and move it 110 kms north and what do you get. The Island turns from a partially glaciated island to a completely glaciated island like it was 15,000 years ago. Baffin Island follows soon after.
The summer temperatures in the Arctic ocean will not rise to +1.0C like they do now and there will be no polar ice cap melt in the summer.
Greenland’s glaciers then build up and extend all the way to the southern tip of the island and through all the unglaciated outflow channels and so on.
Pretty soon it is cool enough so that the snow does melt completely in the summer in northern Nunuvut and northern Quebec and the glaciers start their slow march south toward Chicago and New York.

April 1, 2009 4:21 pm

maksimovich
Anthony Watts is not correct. The ecological impacts depend on the degree of warming and the location. Losses likely outweigh “growth” at higher temperature gains. IPCC WG2 has more info.
REPLY: Sure IPCC has lots of info, that doesn’t mean it is correct info. being that it is mostly a political organization, all info put forth by the IPCC should be considered in that context. So you deny that a warmer and higher CO2 environment is beneficial for plant growth?
-Anthony

Mark A. York
April 1, 2009 4:45 pm

“that doesn’t mean it is correct info. being that it is mostly a political organization, all info put forth by the IPCC should be considered in that context. So you deny that a warmer and higher CO2 environment is beneficial for plant growth?”
Sure. If the plant growth hasn’t been fried to a crisp by heat waves, the result of higher blibal mean temperatures driven by CO2 forcing. This faux argument is a straw man. Let’s see. Watts or the IPCC? That’s a tough choice. See appeal to appropriate authority. You ain’t.

Mark A. York
April 1, 2009 4:46 pm

That’s global mean temperatures.

April 1, 2009 4:59 pm

Chris V. (22:04:33) :
According to Lindzen, the climate sensitivity to CO2 doubling is 0.3 degrees. The radiative forcing from CO2 doubling is about 3.7 W/m2.
Chris V., I see how Dr. Lindzen hypothesized the 0.3° sensitivity to CO2 doubling but I am not sure where the 3.7W/m2 for CO2 doubling came from. i did not see the figure cited explicitly in the essay. For this sensitivity, I would expect that the forcing to be less than 1W/m2 based on this sensitivity.

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 4:59 pm

Mark A York- “fried to a crisp by heat waves”? What hyperbole! What planet do you live on? And “appeal to appropriate authority”? Since when is appeal to any authority a valid argument? But you don’t have to take Anthony’s word for it and he is not staking this on his authority. Jeez. Agriculture isn’t going to decline because of AGW. That’s denial of reality.

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 5:01 pm

Question for the moderation team-What exactly happens to my posts when I try to like to multiple sources of information or images? Could you check your cache?
Reply: Lots of URLs will often land you in the spam filter, but usually one of us will dig you out. It is possible a post or two of yours looked like spam and was deleted by mistake. Sorry if that happened. There is no cache to look at. ~ charles the moderator.

April 1, 2009 5:04 pm

Phil. (10:02:45) :
“Illuminate an grey surface with visible radiation and the temperature will reach an elevated steady state value.
Place a dichroic mirror (which transmits vis and reflects 50% of the IR) this will feedback IR to the surface and heat it up, the system will reach equilibrium when the IR passing through the mirror equals the input.
Therefore Input=100, IR from surface=200, IR from mirror to surface=100, IR though mirror=100.
That is positive feedback and stable.
Increase the feedback by replacing the dichroic with one which reflects 60% of the IR and the feedback increases to 150 so a new higher ss temperature will be reached, you’d only get runaway increase if the mirror reflected 100% of the IR.”
Nice thought experiment, but I would like to see some data from the actual experiment, since I don’t think it works that way.

OK which part don’t you think will work?

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 5:08 pm

Robert Austin-qouting from junkscience:
“The IPCC (alt: IPCC) and the European Environment Agency both provide the formula for calculating change in radiative forcing (ΔF) in Wm-2. For carbon dioxide (CO2) this formula is given as ΔF = αln(C/Co) where C and Co are the current and pre-industrial concentrations of CO2, respectively and α = 5.35.”
That works out to about 3.7 W/m2 going from 280 to 560. As far as I’m aware, this is not a figure which Lindzen disputes. So Lindzen’s sensitivity works out to about .08 C/W/m2

April 1, 2009 5:08 pm

anna v (05:57:06) wrote: “In my opinion, the climate community has developed its own version of the wheel, except it tends to be square.”
anna v; that is a brilliant sentence!

April 1, 2009 5:10 pm

Mark A. York (16:45:19),
I understand that you’re a noob here, but even so, you should know that your last couple of sentences were incredibly insulting to the host.
You should also know the answer to: “Watts or the IPCC?” The obvious answer is WattsUpWithThat.com — this year’s winner of the “Best Science” site.
And since you may not be aware of it, the IPCC is a group of entirely political appointees with marching orders. So it’s smart to put your money on the “Best Science” site, if you want honest info.

April 1, 2009 5:12 pm

Pamela Gray (21:02:03) :
Ice ages are most likely based on our Earth’s wobble as it spins on its axis. Every 10,000 or so years the wobble produces a greater tilt away from the Sun, thus receiving glancing blows from the Sun’s heat during the Summer (and hardly making it to Earth during the Winter), leading to much cooler temperatures and less Arctic ice melt.
Pamela Gray, correct me if I am wrong but somewhere I read that the ice ages occurred not when the earth’s axis was strongly tilted but when the tilt was at a minimal value. I think the idea was that without strong summer seasons in the polar regions, there was no strong seasonal melting and ice in the polar regions expanded.

timetochooseagain
April 1, 2009 5:13 pm

The agriculture discuss might benefit from this:
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/category/agriculture/

April 1, 2009 5:20 pm

//”So you deny that a warmer and higher CO2 environment is beneficial for plant growth?”//
No I don’t deny broad brush statements without meaningful context. The answer depends on where, type of plant/crop, degree of changes in CO2 and temperature, and also in water availability and soil moisture .
Please don’t give advice on “being wrong” and advocacy. Almost every thread I see here is a blatant misrepresentation of the science (like your post on CFC’s and ozone) or other analysis problems, and somehow it remains one of the more read blogs on the web.
REPLY: “it remains one of the more read blogs on the web.” Yeah funny about that isn’t it? maybe it’s because we don’t spend all our time here telling everyone else how wrong or stupid they are. – Anthony

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