Statistician debunks Gore's climate linkage to the collapse of the Mayan civilisation

http://www.myanmars.net/myanmar-history/mayan-civilization2.jpg

Mayan ruins in Guatemala.

This is an email I recently received from statistician Dr. Richard Mackey who writes:

The following appeared on Gore’s blog of Nov 19, 2008:

Looking Back to Look Forward

Looking Back to Look Forward November 19, 2008 : 3:04 PM

A new study suggests the Mayan civilization might have collapsed due to environmental disasters:

These models suggest that as ecosystems were destroyed by mismanagement or were transformed by global climatic shifts, the depletion of agricultural and wild foods eventually contributed to the failure of the Maya sociopolitical system,’ writes environmental archaeologist Kitty Emery of the Florida Museum of Natural History in the current Human Ecology journal.

As we move towards solving the climate crisis, we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental concerns seriously.

If you haven’t read already read it, take a look at Jared Diamond’s book, Collapse.”

This is a most curious reference.

It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.

Brian Fagan in Floods, Famines and Emperors  El Nino and the fate of civilisations  Basic Books 1999, shows that the Maya collapse, whilst having complex political, sociological, technological and ecological factors, was largely driven by the natural atmospheric/oceanic oscillations of ENSO and NAO.  The book is one of three by Brian Fagan, Prof of Anthropology UC Santa Barbara, that documents how natural climate variations, ultimately driven by solar activity, have given rise to the catastrophic collapse of civilisations.  The book has a chapter on the Mayan civilisation which collapsed around 800 to 900 AD.

Here are some quotes from his book:

“The “Classic Maya collapse” is one of the great controversies of

archaeology, but there is little doubt that droughts, fuelled in part

by El Nino, played an important role.”

“The droughts that afflicted the Maya in the eighth and ninth

centuries resulted from complex, still little understood atmosphere-

ocean interactions, including El Nino events and major decadal shifts

in the North Atlantic Oscillation, as well as two or three decade-long

variations in rainfall over many centuries.”

“Why did the Maya civilisation suddenly come apart?  Everyone who

studies the Classic Maya collapse agrees that it was brought on by a

combination of ecological, political, and sociological factors.”

“When the great droughts of the eighth and ninth centuries came, Maya

civilisation everywhere was under increasing stress.”

“The drought was the final straw.”

“The collapse did not come without turmoil and war.”

Brian Fagan describes how the ruling class (the kings had divine powers, they were also shamans and there was a vast aristocracy and their fellow-travellers that the tightly regulated workers toiled to maintain) encouraged population growth beyond what the land could carry; how the rulers enforced rigid farming practices which were supposed to increase food production and the ruler’s incomes but had the effect of undermining farm productivity and diminishing the quality of the poor soils of the area.  When there were heavy rains the soil was washed away.  In times of drought the soil blew away.

More quotes from Brian Fagan:

“The Maya collapse is a cautionary tale in the dangers of using

technology and people power to expand the carrying capacity of

tropical environments.”

“Atmospheric circulation changes far from the Maya homeland delivered

the coup de grace to rulers no longer able to control their own

destinies because they had exhausted their environmental options in an

endless quest for power and prestige.”

Gore says that we should use our understanding of the Maya collapse help us solve the climate crisis, noting that “we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental

concerns seriously”.

Given what we know of the Maya collapse, what is Gore really saying?

He is saying that we should take all the IPCC/AWG publications and related papers to the tip and bury them there and put all our efforts into the study and understanding of the reasons for climate dynamics that address every theory except that of IPCC/AWG doctrine.

Specifically, we should understand as well as we can how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.

In an overview of his work Brian Fagan concluded:  “The whole course of civilisation … may be seen as a process of trading up on the scale of vulnerability”.  (Fagan (2004, page xv)).

We are now, as a global community, very high up on that scale.

Allow me to quote a little from my Rhodes Fairbridge paper because of its relevance to Brian Fagan’s work and what Gore is really trying to say, but can’t quite find the right words.

(My paper is here: http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf ).

“In his many publications (for example, NORTH (2005)), Douglass North stresses that if the issues with which we are concerned, such as global warming and the global commons, belong in a world of continuous change (that is, a non-ergodic world), then we face a set of problems that become exceedingly complex.  North stresses that our capacity to deal effectively with uncertainty is essential to our succeeding in a

non-ergodic world.  History shows that regional effects of climate change are highly variable and that the pattern of change is highly variable.  An extremely cold (or hot) year can be followed by extremely hot (or cold) year.  Warming and cooling will be beneficial for some regions and catastrophic for others.  Brian Fagan has documented in detail relationships between the large-scale and

generally periodic changes in climate and the rise and fall of civilisations, cultures and societies since the dawn of history.  The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the

sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history.  As

Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to mange society’s response to them so as to

enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them.

Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate.  At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics.

This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.

References:

North, D. C., 2005. Understanding the Process of Economic Change

Princeton University Press.

Fagan, B., 2004.  The Long Summer.  How Climate Changed Civilization.

Basic Books.”

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December 3, 2008 10:50 pm

Alphajuno (20:52:16) :
[…] Sun’s orbiter around the barycenter due to Jupiter only) to large gas giants causing the Sun to speed up and slow down (or wobble) would have no influence.
To see the basic physics, consider a system with only the Sun and Jupiter moving in a circular orbit. The sun would not speed up or slow down, but move with constant speed. Agree? The Sun would still wobble, but at constant speed, therefore no forces. So wobbling has nothing to do with anything.

anna v
December 3, 2008 10:57 pm

Continued.
Come to think of it, it is in the sea-saw that the fulcrum is in the baricenter. In a general level it is not. Due to english not being my first language I confused level with fulcrum, as can be seen in the “Think of your fulcrum. Substitute the whole length of it with an (large)elastic material keeping the mass there constant.”
So it is : “think of your lever”.

anna v
December 3, 2008 11:07 pm

did it again. level=lever
;(

lgl
December 4, 2008 9:49 am

Leif,
The sun would not speed up or slow down, but move with constant speed.
Are you sure? If the barycenter is moving in an orbit around the center of the galaxy, the sun will sometimes be outside of this orbit and sometimes closer to the center. To preserve the momentum it will have to speed up when closer to the center and slow down when outside the barycenter orbit.
But it’s probably the 0.000,000,000,001 number again 🙂

December 4, 2008 12:20 pm

lgl (09:49:23) :
“The sun would not speed up or slow down, but move with constant speed.”
Are you sure? If the barycenter is moving in an orbit around the center of the galaxy, the sun will sometimes be outside of this orbit and sometimes closer to the center. To preserve the momentum it will have to speed up when closer to the center and slow down when outside the barycenter orbit.
But it’s probably the 0.000,000,000,001 number again 🙂

And the Galaxy is in orbit around the center of mass of the local group of some twenty other galaxies, which is in orbit around …, etc. Lots of stuff going on once you get past the first ten zeroes… But totally irrelevant. Explore http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2008ScienceMeeting/posters/P4_01_Lynch_Poster.pdf to see how crackpotty one can get.

lgl
December 4, 2008 2:41 pm

Leif
You can’t say it’s totally irrelevant. The sun’s orbit is changing all the time so it feels a force. It’s the free fall that’s irrelevant. An object can be torn apart by gravitational forces in a free fall.

December 4, 2008 4:23 pm

lgl (14:41:39) :
An object can be torn apart by gravitational forces in a free fall.
What tears the body apart are tidal forces which are zero [or negligible] across the body in a uniform field. For the field to be non-uniform, the source must not be too far away as tidal forces fall off as the cube of the distance. For a body falling into a black hole or a satellite getting too close to Saturn [breaking up into a ring], the distances are very small compared to planetary, stellar, galactic, etc distances.
The sun’s orbit is changing all the time so it feels a force.
‘Free fall’ is motion with no acceleration other than that provided by gravity, but since all parts of the body feel the same gravitational field [unless the field is non-uniform and we are back to the tidal situation], they are all accelerated the same way and therefore move together and therefore do not ‘feel’ the motion. This is what is meant by ‘feeling no forces’. And since they all move together no ‘readjustment’ of or ‘effects’ on the parts of the body occur, so the body does not know it is being accelerated or moved. It cannot even measure the field. Consider the unfortunate man in a free-falling elevator dropping his ipod. The ipod will float in front of his nose and not move away towards the floor. It is impossible for the man to measure the field or even know that there is a field. With the mass of the Earth twice as large, so that the elevator is accelerated twice as much, the man would not feel any thing different, his ipod would still float in front of his nose.
Now, how many times must this be said? And didn’t we all learn that in school? [discounting the science-challenged which really cannot participate as critics in this discussion].

December 4, 2008 7:28 pm

lgl (14:41:39) :
You can’t say it’s totally irrelevant. The sun’s orbit is changing all the time so it feels a force. It’s the free fall that’s irrelevant
For a modern look at this, consult:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0juww9fuYggC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=The+Curvature+of+Spacetime+By+Harald+Fritzsch&source=bl&ots=N97ErMgIUf&sig=y3jL6ion90fMpEgtRXG9RDGT9JQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result
page 150, line 17

lgl
December 5, 2008 2:12 am

Leif
I learned in school that you need to apply a force to change the direction of a moving body so the sun is not in free fall in the meaning ‘feeling no force’.
This cannot be a matter of gravity between the sun and the planets only but maybe the gravity of the spiral arm is more important than gravity from the galactic center, since the sun is moving relative to the spiral arm too and it is much closer.

December 5, 2008 7:58 am

lgl (02:12:40) :
I learned in school that you need to apply a force to change the direction of a moving body so the sun is not in free fall in the meaning ‘feeling no force’.
I’ll try again:
‘Free fall’ is motion with no acceleration other than that provided by gravity, but since all parts of the body feel the same gravitational field [unless the field is non-uniform and we are back to the tidal situation], they are all accelerated the same way and therefore move together and therefore do not ‘feel’ the motion. This is what is meant by ‘feeling no forces’. And since they all move together no ‘readjustment’ of or ‘effects’ on the parts of the body occur, so the body does not know it is being accelerated or moved.
And, BTW, check page 150 of the reference I gave. In General Relativity, gravity is not a force at all.
so the sun is not in free fall in the meaning ‘feeling no force’.
Is muddled. ‘Free fall’ is one thing. ‘Feeling a force’ is something else. Free fall is motion with no acceleration except gravity, so even if gravity changes the direction [which is acceleration] it is still a free fall. ‘Feeling no force’ does not mean there is no force [in the classical sense – in General Relativity, gravity is not a force] just that whatever forces there are are in balance and are felt equally by all parts of the body. Like you do not ‘feel’ that you are moving 30 km/s around the Sun, or 600 mph in an airplane.

TomVonk
December 5, 2008 8:50 am

AnnaV
Can you clarify for me if, once the CO2 has absorbed a “hard” infrared photon it can get deexcited by a collision? I can see cascade decays spewing out softer photons if the energy levels are there, but can collisions trigger this, which is what Phil is saying?
Of course . It is either that or to radiate .
Both are possible and necessary because the proportion of excited CO2 must stay constant (LTE) .
It is simply a (reversible) interaction between translationnal and vibrationnal degrees of freedom and works both ways .
In the collisionnal case NO IR photon is involved .
The energy is transferred directly from the vibrationnal CO2 energy to the translationnal N2 energy .
And of course N2 can symetricaly excite the CO2 by hitting it and transfering just enough energy to make it go 1 vibrationnal step up .
Well those are the basics and it is not very complicated .
L.Svalgaard rightly says that the reality is more complicated .
IMHO he should not have said that because I see that some people struggle with barycenters so I imagine that metastable dimers are … ummmm … somewhat far away from the topic .
Actually it is not the principles that are more complicated but the computations are .
Indeed any molecules in collision create transient complexes (mostly dimers) that are quasi bound and present collisionnaly induced electrical dipoles .
So they absorb and radiate and have an IR spectrum .
Via this mechanism H2 , O2 , N2 , you name it , radiate and absorb IR too . It is generally neglected because it is much less than the molecules with either permanent of vibrationnal dipoles and because the computations are horrible and experiences difficult .
But it exists and is major for dense cool objects made of homonuclear molecules like N2 .

lgl
December 5, 2008 11:29 am

Leif
I’ll also try again.
If you are driving a car at high speed from one side of the road to the other and back, will you feel a force?
(assuming you do this as an experiment and not because you are drunk:)

Bill P
December 5, 2008 1:58 pm

Now, how many times must this be said? And didn’t we all learn that in school? [discounting the science-challenged which really cannot participate as critics in this discussion].

We can correct the physicist, encouraging him to change his use of which to who, since we science-challenged are still people.
; – )

December 5, 2008 2:35 pm

lgl (11:29:49) :
If you are driving a car at high speed from one side of the road to the other and back, will you feel a force?
That is because your butt is in direct contact with the car, but your head is not, so what you feel is a difference of forces [which is all one can feel anyway]. And don’t confuse the force delivered by the engine with gravity. Did you read page 150? And why not?

December 5, 2008 2:41 pm

Bill P (13:58:22) :
[discounting the science-challenged which really cannot participate as critics in this discussion].
We can correct the physicist, encouraging him to change his use of which to who, since we science-challenged are still people.
; – )

English is not my first language [number five or six 🙂 ], but I considered the ‘science-challenged’ to be a ‘class’ or ‘group’ and not ‘a people’, so my internal spell-checker thought it appropriate to use ‘which’ which is usual for ‘objects’ or, perhaps, ‘classes’, but I’m always happy to learn something new, if, indeed, I have to.

anna v
December 5, 2008 9:43 pm

TomVonk (08:50:07) :
Thanks.

Old Coach
December 5, 2008 10:57 pm

Igl
Here is a classic thought problem for you. You are in a space ship with the engines turned off. You are “zooming” through space (from Earth’s reference frame). In the frame of your ship, you are just floating motionless and everything else is moving past you. You have an accelerometer in your lap.
This ship’s hull is negatively charged with electrons. As you fly through a solar system, you bypass a positively charged planet (or whatever). What happens? You “feel” yourself being accelerated toward the planet. Your path is “bent”, if you will. Your skin feels it, your butt feels it from the ship, and your accelerometer reads this acceleration. In fact, there is a particle interaction that is carrying this electromagnetic force which is the cause of your acceleration.
Next, you bypass a massive planet. Once again, from Earth’s reference frame, you are accelerated around the planet. In this ship, however, you feel… NOTHING! The accelerometer remains at a reading of zero. Your butt is not pressed into your seat by the “force” that is “bending” your path. In your reference frame, you are continuing on your free fall with engines off, and the universe is shifting by you.
As Leif mentioned, in General Relativity, gravity is not a force. In classical mechanics it is. Gen Rel. predicts the orbit of Mercury with astonishing accuracy, while classical mechanics fails. Now, there are other theories of gravity which also predict planetary motion quite well (quantum loop gravity and others). In Gen. Rel., but not QLG, there need not even be a particle transmitting the “force”, unlike the electromagnetic force which has a carrier particle. Also, it is possible that there is no particle transmitting gravity.
I, for one, am anxiously awaiting those technicians to fix the danged Large Hadron Collider so we can see if gravitons really exist.
The unfortunate basis for all this confusion is the way we teach physics in High School and undergraduate classes. We teach gravity as a force because it gives the brain a nice concrete picture that we can use to solve problems and make predictions. This is very similar to the way we teach basic chemistry using the Bohr model of the atom. We know that the atom (or gravity) does not look the way we teach it, but it is good for creating a visual and solving the basic problems. Since most people never take general relativity, cosmology, or anything of that nature, they always have this simplified and incomplete understanding of gravity.
Having said this, I am confident that nobody understands gravity. There has to be some big (and maybe even obvious) leap of understanding that we are all missing. For instance, it sure seems like a fine coincidence that gravitational mass appears to be identical to inertial mass.

December 6, 2008 12:43 am

Old Coach (22:57:27) :
This ship’s hull is negatively charged with electrons. As you fly through a solar system, you bypass a positively charged planet (or whatever). What happens? You “feel” yourself being accelerated toward the planet.
But if you were also negatively charged to the same potential as the hull [i.e. no spark or current if you touch the hull], then you would not feel anything either. The crucial point is that is all parts of a system undergo the same acceleration then that acceleration cannot be felt.

December 6, 2008 12:44 am

Leif Svalgaard (00:43:13) :
The crucial point is that if all parts of a system undergo the same acceleration then that acceleration cannot be felt.

lgl
December 6, 2008 2:08 am

puh- inertial mass, finally you said it 🙂
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, not gravitational mass.
The sun is wiggeling in it’s orbit so there is a force applied perpendicular to the direction of motion hence the sun ‘feels’ it.

lgl
December 6, 2008 2:46 am

Leif
No I have not read page 150. Your link is just a review of the book as far as I can see.

lgl
December 6, 2008 4:39 am

Since you have never heard about linear momentum, start here:
http://www.racquetresearch.com/linmom.htm
“Linear momentum is the tendency of an object moving in a certain direction to keep going at the same speed in the same direction. It is the product of the object’s inertia (its mass M) and its velocity (v), or Mv”

lgl
December 6, 2008 5:46 am

Leif & Old Coach
“This ship’s hull is negatively charged with electrons. As you fly through a solar system, you bypass a positively charged planet (or whatever). What happens? You “feel” yourself being accelerated toward the planet.
But if you were also negatively charged to the same potential as the hull [i.e. no spark or current if you touch the hull], then you would not feel anything either. The crucial point is that is all parts of a system undergo the same acceleration then that acceleration cannot be felt”
I would have been pushed agains the hull and so would you, unless you only have gravitational mass and not inertial mass. But what do I know, I have heard about antimatter, maybe you are made of anti-inertial-matter 🙂

December 6, 2008 6:46 am

lgl (02:08:35) :
puh- inertial mass, finally you said it 🙂
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, not gravitational mass.

General Relativity posits that the inertial mass is equal to the gravitational mass, even Newton’s laws posit that, and all experiments show that to great precision, so you cannot [and don’t] talk meaningfully about their difference. You seem to have no idea what you are talking about.
The sun is wiggeling in it’s orbit so there is a force applied perpendicular to the direction of motion hence the sun ‘feels’ it.
You simply don’t get it:
“The crucial point is that if all parts of a system undergo the same acceleration then that acceleration cannot be felt.”
If the whole Sun wiggles, the wiggeling is not felt. If only a part of the Sun wiggles the Sun will feel it. And again, gravity is not a force.
lgl (02:46:39) :
No I have not read page 150. Your link is just a review of the book as far as I can see.
The review is conveniently positioned at page 150, so read it. Or better, get the book and read it, but at least read page 150, line 17 at the link. You refusal is telling. You could at least humor me.

lgl
December 6, 2008 7:10 am

Leif,
Your link says “Gravity emerges not as an actual physical force but as a consequence of space-time geometry”
I can’t see what that has to do with linear momentum.

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