
Mayan ruins in Guatemala.
This is an email I recently received from statistician Dr. Richard Mackey who writes:
The following appeared on Gore’s blog of Nov 19, 2008:
Looking Back to Look Forward November 19, 2008 : 3:04 PM
A new study suggests the Mayan civilization might have collapsed due to environmental disasters:
These models suggest that as ecosystems were destroyed by mismanagement or were transformed by global climatic shifts, the depletion of agricultural and wild foods eventually contributed to the failure of the Maya sociopolitical system,’ writes environmental archaeologist Kitty Emery of the Florida Museum of Natural History in the current Human Ecology journal.
As we move towards solving the climate crisis, we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental concerns seriously.
If you haven’t read already read it, take a look at Jared Diamond’s book, Collapse.”
This is a most curious reference.
It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
Brian Fagan in Floods, Famines and Emperors El Nino and the fate of civilisations Basic Books 1999, shows that the Maya collapse, whilst having complex political, sociological, technological and ecological factors, was largely driven by the natural atmospheric/oceanic oscillations of ENSO and NAO. The book is one of three by Brian Fagan, Prof of Anthropology UC Santa Barbara, that documents how natural climate variations, ultimately driven by solar activity, have given rise to the catastrophic collapse of civilisations. The book has a chapter on the Mayan civilisation which collapsed around 800 to 900 AD.
Here are some quotes from his book:
“The “Classic Maya collapse” is one of the great controversies of
archaeology, but there is little doubt that droughts, fuelled in part
by El Nino, played an important role.”
“The droughts that afflicted the Maya in the eighth and ninth
centuries resulted from complex, still little understood atmosphere-
ocean interactions, including El Nino events and major decadal shifts
in the North Atlantic Oscillation, as well as two or three decade-long
variations in rainfall over many centuries.”
“Why did the Maya civilisation suddenly come apart? Everyone who
studies the Classic Maya collapse agrees that it was brought on by a
combination of ecological, political, and sociological factors.”
“When the great droughts of the eighth and ninth centuries came, Maya
civilisation everywhere was under increasing stress.”
“The drought was the final straw.”
“The collapse did not come without turmoil and war.”
Brian Fagan describes how the ruling class (the kings had divine powers, they were also shamans and there was a vast aristocracy and their fellow-travellers that the tightly regulated workers toiled to maintain) encouraged population growth beyond what the land could carry; how the rulers enforced rigid farming practices which were supposed to increase food production and the ruler’s incomes but had the effect of undermining farm productivity and diminishing the quality of the poor soils of the area. When there were heavy rains the soil was washed away. In times of drought the soil blew away.
More quotes from Brian Fagan:
“The Maya collapse is a cautionary tale in the dangers of using
technology and people power to expand the carrying capacity of
tropical environments.”
“Atmospheric circulation changes far from the Maya homeland delivered
the coup de grace to rulers no longer able to control their own
destinies because they had exhausted their environmental options in an
endless quest for power and prestige.”
Gore says that we should use our understanding of the Maya collapse help us solve the climate crisis, noting that “we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental
concerns seriously”.
Given what we know of the Maya collapse, what is Gore really saying?
He is saying that we should take all the IPCC/AWG publications and related papers to the tip and bury them there and put all our efforts into the study and understanding of the reasons for climate dynamics that address every theory except that of IPCC/AWG doctrine.
Specifically, we should understand as well as we can how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
In an overview of his work Brian Fagan concluded: “The whole course of civilisation … may be seen as a process of trading up on the scale of vulnerability”. (Fagan (2004, page xv)).
We are now, as a global community, very high up on that scale.
Allow me to quote a little from my Rhodes Fairbridge paper because of its relevance to Brian Fagan’s work and what Gore is really trying to say, but can’t quite find the right words.
(My paper is here: http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf ).
“In his many publications (for example, NORTH (2005)), Douglass North stresses that if the issues with which we are concerned, such as global warming and the global commons, belong in a world of continuous change (that is, a non-ergodic world), then we face a set of problems that become exceedingly complex. North stresses that our capacity to deal effectively with uncertainty is essential to our succeeding in a
non-ergodic world. History shows that regional effects of climate change are highly variable and that the pattern of change is highly variable. An extremely cold (or hot) year can be followed by extremely hot (or cold) year. Warming and cooling will be beneficial for some regions and catastrophic for others. Brian Fagan has documented in detail relationships between the large-scale and
generally periodic changes in climate and the rise and fall of civilisations, cultures and societies since the dawn of history. The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the
sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history. As
Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to mange society’s response to them so as to
enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them.
Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate. At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics.
This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.
References:
North, D. C., 2005. Understanding the Process of Economic Change
Princeton University Press.
Fagan, B., 2004. The Long Summer. How Climate Changed Civilization.
Basic Books.”
TonyB:
Thank you for demonstrating once again that climate change is entirely natural.
Freezing Finn (09:21:14)
If you light a match – most of the heat goes up, less goes sideways, yet a lot less goes down, not?
Now, why would heat radiated by a CO2 molecule behave differently?
You’re confusing convection with radiation heat transfer. In a column of gas or fluid the molecules at the bottom are packed tighter than the top. When you heat a molecule it expands and so has less mass per volume. The cooler molecules have a greater mass per volume and are pulled under the warmer molecule by gravity.
Leif Svalgaard : “Well, you started by asking about greenhouse gases in general…”
No, I asked about CO2 only.
And I know my English isn’t perfect, but it ain’t that bad either… 😉
Ric Werme: “Heated air is convected upwards, to be sure. Radiant heat (IR and visible light) goes “up, down, sideways …”
So, whereas a fire (radiating heat “up, down and sideways”) heats the air around itself making the air go upwards – radiant heat from a CO2 molecule does not heat the air around itself – instead – the radiant heat results in heated air later/some place else?
Freezing Finn (12:24:12) :
So, whereas a fire (radiating heat “up, down and sideways”) heats the air around itself making the air go upwards – radiant heat from a CO2 molecule does not heat the air around itself – instead – the radiant heat results in heated air later/some place else?
A fire does not heat the air around it. The radiant heat is absorbed by the surroundings which in turn radiate heat that heats the air. Example: on top of a tall mountain that great fire in the sky beats down through the air, but the air may be freezing cold, nevertheless [or on a winter day in Finland].
And the real greenhouse gas is H2O. It is the one that keeps the Earth 30K warmer than it would have been without an atmosphere. Forget CO2, it is but a minor player.
Ric Werme,
Ah, I humbly stand corrected and retract my statement. All the same, that is an example of but one of the possible threats. And a one in a million chance, while statistically tiny, is not a denial of that possibility. However, I will take this as a caution that I should do better research in the future.
Freezing Finn
So, whereas a fire (radiating heat “up, down and sideways”) heats the air around itself making the air go upwards.
No! Convection forces the gas to rise. Radiating atoms don’t cause other atoms to do anything other than to excite them into a higher state of activity. In the absence of gravity they go no where. The IPCC’s reports are flawed because they only deal with a static model. At the atomic level radiation forcing does exist but on earth it’s transient and not cumulative.
Leif Svalgaard says:
Oh, Leif, you AGW denier, you!
However, I do like your turn of phrase.
Leif,
What effect would small changes in the rotational speed of the sun have on the coriolis effect/force? Could changes in the degree of coriolis effect work synergistically with tidal forces?
I will add, however, that the invalidity of my example – if proven true over time – does not negate the validity of my main point. There is and has been no human system of civilization that is immune to the catastrophes of Nature. We are more advanced and may have some advantages, and may thus be able to overcome obstacles that previous civilizations could not, but that does not exempt us. In fact, in a time where economies are ever-increasingly tied together, a regional catastrophe that does not affect the globe physically can still do plenty of damage economically.
We have grown up in a period that has been moderately friendly to human civilization, and in particular the American form of it. We have had to overcome a lot of little things in that time, globally speaking, from tsunamis to major snow events at times/places and lots inbetween. There is much we can do to combat those kinds of things and to overcome them. But we still have a very active planet. The whole point is that despite our technological advantages over the Maya, we are just as open to a collapse (and here I speak in general fact, I am not trying to spread alarm, so please do not take it as such) as they were. If it does happen, however, it will probably be in large part due to our politics, much like the Maya, which will just exaserbate the effects of negative climactic influences to the point of causing a crisis.
I do pay particularly better attention to political trends and their ecomomic interactions than I do researching the likelihood of caldera eruptions (full disclosure: victim of a Discovery Channel special I was there. I should know better and will from now on.) or getting directions correct (northeast v northwest). All I guess I mean is that we too are not immune from making political decisions that, when combined with natural factors, will contribute to serious disasters on a global scale. All of our technological advances have not made us any more immune to making mistakes inherent in being human.
Stephen Garland (16:49:31) :
Could changes in the degree of coriolis effect work synergistically with tidal forces?
First, the tidal forces are too weak to have much effect, and for a change in the coriolis force we must first have a change in rotation, and where would that come from? All parts of the Sun partake equally in its orbital motions such as to cause no change of rotation, so, no, I would not think there could be any synergy there. And do we need planetary effects to cause the solar cycle? I think not, as we have enough dynamo theories that claim to do that.
Leif Svalgaard (12:46:59) :
“And the real greenhouse gas is H2O. It is the one that keeps the Earth 30K warmer than it would have been without an atmosphere. Forget CO2, it is but a minor player.”
Sorry Leif without CO2 H2O wouldn’t do squat!
REPLY: Phil. REPLY: Your statement is absurd. CO2 is not dependent on the presence of H20 for absorption or emittance of IR. – Anthony
Phil said: “Sorry Leif without CO2 H2O wouldn’t do squat!”
REPLY: Your statement is absurd. CO2 is not dependent on the presence of H20 for absorption or emittance of IR. – Anthony
But that’s not what I said Anthony, H2O is dependent on the presence of CO2 though, which is what I said.
REPLY: Phil, I don’t see how you could possibly make this claim. H20 as water vapor is not dependent on the existence of CO2 in our atmosphere. – Anthony
Phil. (18:35:26) :
Leif Svalgaard (12:46:59) :
“And the real greenhouse gas is H2O. It is the one that keeps the Earth 30K warmer than it would have been without an atmosphere. Forget CO2, it is but a minor player.”
Sorry Leif without CO2 H2O wouldn’t do squat!
REPLY: Phil. REPLY: Your statement is absurd. CO2 is not dependent on the presence of H20 for absorption or emittance of IR. – Anthony
Anthony, don’t you have this backwards? H2O would absorb even without CO2.
REPLY: Yes my point exactly, sorry for the phrasing. – Anthony
Phil said: “Sorry Leif without CO2 H2O wouldn’t do squat!”
REPLY: Your statement is absurd. CO2 is not dependent on the presence of H20 for absorption or emittance of IR. – Anthony
But that’s not what I said Anthony, H2O is dependent on the presence of CO2 though, which is what I said.
REPLY: Phil, I don’t see how you could possibly make this claim. H20 as water vapor is not dependent on the existence of CO2 in our atmosphere. – Anthony
Because H2O is not a permanent gas, as the temperature drops the vapor pressure drops, as the vapor pressure drops the GH effect of the water drops etc. Not to mention with the ice age that would engender and the corresponding effect on the albedo. A habitable climate of earth isn’t sustainable without permanent GHG, water vapor can’t do it on it’s own.
So yes water vapor is dependent on the existence of CO2 (and others like CH4).
REPLY: Hmmm I’m not convinced that if CO2 and other GHG’s were removed that water vapor would eventually fail to sustain. Citation? – Anthony
> REPLY: Phil, I don’t see how you could possibly make this claim. H20 as water vapor is not dependent on the existence of CO2 in our atmosphere. –
Perhaps he’s trying to say that without CO2, Earth would be so cold that most of the H2O would condense and there wouldn’t be enough water vapor to be a useful GHG.
Leif and Ric
When a GHG molecule absorbs an IR photon it is thermalised, raising the temperature of the molecule
When this same molecule then emits IR is this IR emission packing the same punch as it absorbed or is it determined by the new temperature that the molecule has reached?
Does a GHG molecule always emit after it absorbs or is some shared with the surrounding non GHG molecules?
Thanks Leif, for all your comments.
I am not a physicist and I do find the theories linking planetary effects with changes to climate attractive. Leif, I accept your judgement that the changes to solar activity are too low to be the main factor in any correlation (I have enjoyed the debate).
However, is it possible that the planets modify the earth’s climate through their influence on the Earth’s rotational speed and the subsequent development of atmospheric, oceanic, and possibly surge tectonic cycles?
Stephen.
Stephen Garland (20:51:29) :
However, is it possible that the planets modify the earth’s climate through their influence on the Earth’s rotational speed and the subsequent development of atmospheric, oceanic, and possibly surge tectonic cycles?
For the same reasons as for the Sun, I’d say the answer is no. In a sense, it is the other way around: the climate influences the Earth’s rotational speed. Warmer air expands and the atmosphere swells and, as an ice skater outstretching her arms, the Earth slows down.
Ric Werme (19:32:12) :
Perhaps he’s trying to say that without CO2, Earth would be so cold that most of the H2O would condense and there wouldn’t be enough water vapor to be a useful GHG.
When the Earth was young and had perhaps a hundred times as much CO2, that CO2 was the dominant GHC and prevented H2O freezing out. But now, that the temperature is high enough to sustain water vapor, the roles are reversed. Why are we discussing this? Isn’t all this clear already? If not, how can one debate AGW at all without having even the basics down?
Phil said:
“Because H2O is not a permanent gas, as the temperature drops the vapor pressure drops, as the vapor pressure drops the GH effect of the water drops etc. Not to mention with the ice age that would engender and the corresponding effect on the albedo. A habitable climate of earth isn’t sustainable without permanent GHG, water vapor can’t do it on it’s own.
So yes water vapor is dependent on the existence of CO2 (and others like CH4).
REPLY: Hmmm I’m not convinced that if CO2 and other GHG’s were removed that water vapor would eventually fail to sustain. Citation? – Anthony
It’s called the Clausius-Clapeyron equation:
ln(P2/P1) = -∆Hvap/R * (1/T2- 1/T1)
∆Hvap=40.7 kJ/mol for water
Water has a vapor pressure of 24 mmHg at 25ºC
Check it out.
Barycentric orbits may give a clue……..
Phil. (19:17:33)
Because H2O is not a permanent gas, as the temperature drops the vapor pressure drops, as the vapor pressure drops the GH effect of the water drops etc.
There is no such thing as a permanent gas. The states of gas, liquid and solid are the product of heat and pressure. You are also wrong about the GH effect of H2O. When the sun heats the ocean it is in effect warming a liquid gas. When water vapour rises it can absorb black body radiation in exactly the same way as it does in it’s liquid state. It is the same for CO2. Nether rely on each other for for their absorption qualities.
Ok – I’m starting to “see” the (heat-radiating, invisible) light here – I think… 😉
And just to make sure I’m not imagining it; the radiant heat does not heat air as such – it’s the other, more solid objects that absorb the radiant heat first – and which then heat the air around the objects…
Am I getting somewhere?
But yes, I “understand” – and as much as I’m able to, of course 😉 – that H20’s role is far greater than CO2’s in the “greenhouse effect” phenomenon – it’s just that the name “greenhouse effect” seems somewhat misleading to me, for the atmosphere really isn’t much like a greenhouse, is it?
Oh, and thanks for your patience, folks! I do feel like a baby trying to learn to walk – well, for a second time, I’d say.
What I mean is that it’s over 20 years since my last physics lessons in high-school and all I can remember from that is the class room, barely + what (some) of my classmates looked like – and well, especially the girls… 😉
Now, as funny as that may seem – I’m starting to believe that the school system – even here in Finland – is meant to dumb the majority of people down and for a purpose. After all, dumbed down “sheeple” are easier to control, let alone brainwash.
TD wrote :
When a GHG molecule absorbs an IR photon it is thermalised, raising the temperature of the molecule
When this same molecule then emits IR is this IR emission packing the same punch as it absorbed or is it determined by the new temperature that the molecule has reached?
Does a GHG molecule always emit after it absorbs or is some shared with the surrounding non GHG molecules?
You must understand the most important thing which is the LTE (Local Thermodynamic Equilibrium) because it explains (almost) everything .
At least as far as radiation only goes .
If you consider f.ex 2 species CO2 (non energized) and CO2* (energised) , the condition of LTE says that their numbers stay constant all the time .
So when CO2* emits IR and becomes CO2 again , it emits with the “same punch” because it needs to “cool down” by exactly the same amount as it “heated up” first place .
Btw it is better to speak of energy instead of temperature .
While there are 4 sorts of molecular energy – translationnal , orbital , vibrationnal , rotationnal – there is generally one temperature , namely the one your thermometer shows .
So speaking of increase of temperature of a molecule can be interpreted very differently depending on what kind of energy varied .
In the case of molecular interaction with IR radiation only the vibrationnal and rotationnal energy levels are concerned .
GHG molecules do all of 4 things at the same time .
– absorb IR energy
– emit IR energy
– transfer energy to surrounding molecules by collisions (whether they are GHG or non GHG)
– receive energy from surrounding molecules by collisions (whether they are GHG or non GHG)
In equilibrium the rates of all these changes are constant and the temperature is constant and well defined .
This is however a very simplified partial view – in reality the fact of having LTE for radiation purposes doesn’t help much because what matters is the TE (Thermodynamic equilibrium) and this one doesn’t exist for the Earth’s atmosphere .
In the reality the gases are our of equilibrium , move , conduct and transfer energy by convection what is a very complex , not yet solved problem .
Thank you TomVonk for the explanation of cO2* emission, it helped a lot with my image of CO2
With LTE I would have thought that the point of IR absorption, was that by absorbing the IR, LTE was disturbed moving however minutely to a new slightly higher LTE.
As you can see I am having a problem seeing LTE as something that maintains itself.
Or are you saying that IR is IR, and collision is collision, and the two do not interact (CO2* does not become CO2 by collision).
CO2* at the surface (15C) has the same energy difference as CO2* at 30,000ft (-60C)