This year's Antarctic ozone hole is 5th biggest

“We’ve got our criminals and their names are CO2 and CFC, I’m confident that the forensics will show them guilty beyond a shadow of the doubt”.
Exactly. The media and press-releases are running the world.

Seem that the Montreal Protical has acctualy failed. If the largest, and 5th largest (wich was less than one percent smaller than the largest) ozone holes have occured after the ozone depleating substances have started to drop, looks to me like a compleat faluar.
And to think that I can’t get my trucks airconditioning repaired over this whole fiasco.

Acknowledging any possible effects Cosmic Rays have on the Ozone layer opens the door to other possibilities…such as their effect on increasing cloud cover.
It is then only a matter of time before AGW is questioned..
Don’t expect anything to happen for quite a while but another cold winter and another cold summer should at least kick-start the debate.
Likely clues to the debate starting will be well known AGW’s taking early retirement…or new jobs!

There was an interesting article published in Nature last year-
http://www.junkscience.com/sep07/Chemists_poke_holes_in_ozone_theory.htm
“As the world marks 20 years since the introduction of the Montreal Protocol to protect the ozone layer, Nature has learned of experimental data that threaten to shatter established theories of ozone chemistry. If the data are right, scientists will have to rethink their understanding of how ozone holes are formed and how that relates to climate change.”
If these results from NASA JPL are confirmed, then, as some leading atmospheric chemistry scientists have stated publicly-
“If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being.”
“The result was a shock: at least 60% of ozone destruction at the poles seems to be due to an unknown mechanism, Rex told a meeting of stratosphere researchers in Bremen, Germany, last week.”
“Now suddenly it’s like a plank has been pulled out of a bridge.”
And the piece de resistance- “Overwhelming evidence still suggests that anthropogenic emissions of CFCs and halons are the reason for the ozone loss. But we would be on much firmer ground if we could write down the correct chemical reactions.”
Unbelievable. We know the answer. We just need to work out the chemical reactions to support what we “know”. Sure sounds familiar.
I wouldn’t put the CFC ban in the same category as the DDT ban, since it resulted in far fewer deaths. The DDT ban has killed millions of Africans, mostly children, due to Malaria outbreaks, whereas the ozone hole nonsense and subsequent CFC ban has only resulted in the loss of one space shuttle and higher refrigeration costs worldwide.

I’ve always wondered when humankind discovered the ozone layer, and when we started measuring its extent. Are there proxies that exist to determine the historical extent of the ozone layer, or is the ozone hole/CFC hysteria based on 50 or so years of measurement? If its only 50 years, how can anyone be sure that the ozone hole isn’t just a natural occurrence? I’m new to all this, so I’d appreciate it if someone could set me straight? Thanks
Nizialek

While debating this with another poster on another forum, I’ve learned a few things I did not know about the ozone hole. It is not permanent. It forms only when atmospheric conditions and temperatures are just right. It forms during the winter months when the stratosphere reaches -80F. There is not a corresponding Arctic ozone hole because it simply does not get that cold there. Furthermore, clouds play a very significant role. I suspect the cloud condition may be influenced by the cosmic ray variable (should that prove itself out). The most important thing I learned is this hole CANNOT extend past 55 degrees latitude (and most commonly will never get north of 65 degrees) because the atmospheric conditions to support the ozone breakdown simply will never exist there. It’s too warm.

the defense would have the forensics tossed out easily.

Not when the judge is the district attorney’s husband. The trial is rigged, don’t cha know..

This new research does not in any way contradict the well-supported theory that CFCs cause ozone depletion- quite the opposite, in fact.
Previously, it was thought the breakdown of CFCs (and the release of ozone-destroying chlorine) was mainly caused by UV light; this research shows that cosmic rays also break down CFCs.
CFCs are still the source of the chlorine.

I follow these debates with an open mind. If the sun stays as relatively inactive as it currently is for a while, we will get our answer, one way or another, about the sun’s influence on climate. It’s too early, yet, to draw conclusions, in my view. The change in Arctic sea ice growth in the last 3 months is very interesting, but we need to see if it continues in that direction, for example. I think it was Bjorn Lomborg who said he wants results to be data driven, not model driven.
I do want to say that DDT was not a hoax. Reason magazine’s Ron Bailey, among many others, made this point. It really did cause a number of birds in the U.S. to have huge declines in populations because their egg shells would break. This was determined in the field as well as in experiments in the lab, which found the biological mechanisms by which DDT caused eggshells to get so thin. It was widespread DDT use on farms which caused it to be so abundant as to have these effects. I for one don’t think we should be cavalier about widespread use of a chemical which had the potential to cause Peregrine Falcons, Bald Eagles, Brown Pelicans, and several other assorted large birds to come close to disappearing in the lower 48.
I also agree that DDT’s limited use on the insides of huts in Africa has saved tens of thousands of lives, at minimum, and could save many, many more. Just the smell of it keeps the mosquito carriers of malaria outside the living quarters. The hostility of environmentalists and governments to such limited life-saving use is as criminal as is defense of its original widespread use. To say that DDT was a hoax in the first place is wrong on the facts.

OT but I think you’ll find this link from the BBC’s Green Room very interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7643883.stm
Is this an early sign that the BBC is beginning to panic and getting ready to open up the AGW debate?

Chris V writes: CFCs are still the source of the chlorine.
What about the millions of tons of chlorine injected into the atmosphere from volcanoes, the oceans, and other natural sources. I read where those sources are much larger than any man-made source. Anybody have the numbers?

The Great Alarmist GORE lays it out in the NYT. The 5 things he says that need to get done, NOW!:
1. Large-scale investment in incentives for the construction of concentrated solar thermal plants and wind farms.
2. Planning and construction of a unified national smart grid.
3. Convert quickly to plug-in hybrids that can run on the renewable electricity.
4. Nationwide effort to retrofit buildings with better insulation and energy-efficient windows and lighting.
5. Put a price on carbon here at home.
This of course is to “begin an emergency rescue of human civilization from the imminent and rapidly growing threat posed by the climate crisis.” And concerning coal: “we simply cannot any longer base the strategy for human survival on a cynical and self-interested illusion.”
Obviously big Al hasn’t seen any temperature data since George snatched the election from under his nose in 2000. My bet is that Obama is gonna try to implement this insanity.
Anyone willing to predict otherwise?